EV Digest 5123
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Whooie, elec does it again!
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Whooie, elec does it again!
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) John Wayland - Ears Ringing?
by Dave Stensland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Zapi controller blink code.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Whooie, elec does it again!
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Whooie, elec does it again!
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: John Wayland - Ears Ringing?
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: budget EV insurance update
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: OT: Prius tires
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Whooie, elec does it again!
by Gnat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: New Kits
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) budget EV insurance update
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Acceleration Defined
by MIKE & PAULA WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Whooie, elec does it again!
by "Alaric G. Weigle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) "Who Killed the Electric Car" Review (long)
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Whooie, elec does it again!
by "Alaric G. Weigle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Whooie, elec does it again!
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: budget EV insurance update
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Whooie, elec does it again!
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Acceleration Defined
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Give Up on ElectraVan
by Jimmy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Whooie, elec does it again!
by "Alaric G. Weigle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: "Who Killed the Electric Car" Review (long)
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
People seem to be forgetting that AC Propulsion did do a practical,
steel bodied, doored, windowed, four seater car!
<http://www.acpropulsion.com/Media%20stories/Electric_Car_Preview.htm>
I don't know what its 1/4 mile was, but it claimed a 0-60 mph in the
6 second range, pretty good! That was with lead acid batteries, too!
The reality is if you want magazine covers and press, you build a
sports car. Alledgedly Chevy loses money on the Corvette, but they
couldn't buy the kinds of good press the car gets for them. Likewise,
it looks like AC Propulsion did similarly with the Tzero.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While perhaps not *the* fastest accelerating production road car, depending
on what the speed or distance target is (I think in general that goes to
the Bugatti Veyron), Paul is right. The only car to which the Wrightspeed
can be compared is the Ariel Atom (http://arielmotor.co.uk), which *is*
most likely the most acceleration and agility you can get on four wheels
for the price, anywhere. And I believe this comparison would be brutal to
the Wrightspeed.
If they'd come up with their own body, the limited power of the ACP
powerplant compared to the Atom's supercharged VTEC wouldn't be quite as
obvious.
And showing the Wrightspeed on a dragstrip is about as ludicrous as taking
it to a tractor pull. It should be shown on a road course, for which the
chassis and running gear were engineered.
--chris
On 8:08:40 pm 01/24/06 "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I love EVs....I love quick and fast EVs, however, to call the
> > Wright Speed a 'car' is really a stretch. Showing this rolling
> > tube chassis beating expensive exotica seems silly. This thing
> > doesn't have a roof, or doors or any real body to speak of. It's a
> > rolling tube skeleton being tauted as a 'car'...give me a break!
> > It's another one of AC Propulsion's tricks of using something that
> > barely passes as a car, then pitting it against real cars.
>
> The car is an Aerial Atom, in ICE form the fastest accelerating road
> car in the world (with supercharged V-tec). It's also one of the best
> handling cars in the world and is an awsome car to throw around a
> track. It's the spiritual sucessor of the Lotus 6 or 7, the minimum
> amount of car for the job. Costing £28,000 it's beaten the worlds
> most powerful, exotic, and expensive supercars around a moderately
> tight test track.
> It's not a fair comparison.
>
> Paul Compton
> www.sciroccoev.co.uk
> www.morini-mania.co.uk
> www.compton.vispa.com/the_named
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey guys,
Today I checked my server logs and found an interesting gasser forum in
Australia reacting to fast electric vehicles.
Warning: These folks seem stunned so pardon their salty -- but
respectful -- language...
http://www.boostcruising.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=117116&hl=
If you're interested I can certainly post similar links more often.
They happen all the time. All over the world.
Cheers,
-Dave Stensland
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anybody got the codes for a Zapi controller. Seems dead and here is the
code I get.
I'm still trying to get word from ZAPI on the controller issue the website
has no manuals (4 LED blinks, pause, 4 blinks)Thanks for any info. Lawrence
Rhodes.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 1/24/06, David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> People seem to be forgetting that AC Propulsion did do a practical,
> steel bodied, doored, windowed, four seater car!
>
> http://www.acpropulsion.com/Media%20stories/Electric_Car_Preview.htm
In addition to that, I've seen a VW Jetta conversion at AC Propulsion on
Scientific American Frontiers. And I *think* I remember hearing them say
they were working with VW.
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 1/24/06, Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Maybe we need to put together a film about real life electrics. I mean
> ones
> that get driven every day and ones that people can afford to own, ones
> that
> can get 100 miles around town and the ones that can pull 11 second quarter
> miles. No doubt the flash of the X1 will open eyes, but the real life
> cars
> will convince them.
If anyone is looking to do this, could I make a suggestion? It would be
really great if everyone who recorded EV races, events, etc were to purchase
an inexpensive tripod or make the $14 steadycam rig (
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~johnny/steadycam/). I love watching the recordings
everyone has done so far, but to get a little more mainstream some less
bouncy video would be nice.
I ususally can't make it out to the events to help, but I'd love to help out
by doing some video editing if anyone is interested.
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave, Please, More, More! This is great and there were naysayers on this
list that said our little prom queen takeover of Drag Times wouldn't do much
of anything to effect Joe six pack. This is some fun reading from down
under.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Stensland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 12:19 PM
Subject: John Wayland - Ears Ringing?
Hey guys,
Today I checked my server logs and found an interesting gasser forum in
Australia reacting to fast electric vehicles.
Warning: These folks seem stunned so pardon their salty -- but
respectful -- language...
http://www.boostcruising.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=117116&hl=
If you're interested I can certainly post similar links more often. They
happen all the time. All over the world.
Cheers,
-Dave Stensland
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com
--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Depends on your state. States I've been in require a proof of insurance
card that has the vehicle year, make, and VIN listed on it. In Maryland,
they go farther and tie the insurance to your registration. If you drop
coverage on a vehicle without first turning in your tags to the DMV, the
police will come take your tags and issue you a ticket with a large fine for
having an uninsured vehicle. If you switch insurance companies, you have to
make sure your new policy is in effect before dropping your old one.
Also, my liability insurance covers my vehicles, no matter who is driving.
Dave Davidson
Glen Burnie, MD
1993 Dodge TEVan
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: budget EV insurance update
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 20:10:14 -0700
Hello Darin,
I am going to give you some information that a lot of vehicle insurance
companies don't want you to know.
Snip
Liability insurance is on the person, not the vehicle. The person is
liable, not the vehicle. It does not make any difference if the vehicle is
worth $10,000.00 or $1,000,000.00. Both of the vehicles will do about the
same amount of damage. The $10,000.00 vehicle may do more damage.
Snip
I have one proof of insurance card that I carry from vehicle to vehicle.
If I drive your car, it is cover. If I drive a rental car, it is cover by
the same liability policy. If you used your credit car to rent a car, then
the collision damage is cover by them.
Snip
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They might only be marginally better than the OEM tires, but Goodyear Integrity
tires are as they quote "fuel efficient." I've got them on my saturn and over
what was there (really old mismatched tires) they made a good 10 amp
difference. They come in a 175/65/14 size I believe. An Insight owner put them
on his Insight and only lost a few mpg, and ended up running a pair of the
Goodyears on the back of the car and a set of the OEM Potenza's on the front
with a minimal mpg hit.
They don't particularly get great reviews, but more efficient tires never do.
On the bright side, they have a 460 treadware rating!
"Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Jan 23, 2006, at 1:24 PM, Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Paul G. wrote:
>
>> What is recommended?
>> 175/65R14
>
> 33 tires listed in that size. Nothing in particular jumped out at
> me.. Might read some reviews on various tires. Certain tires get rave
> reviews. Other are nothing but complaints of tires being noisy, only
> lasting 10,000 miles, or having no traction, etc..
That is about what I found. Even looking online for Prius web sites
that discuss tires I didn't find that many for the older ones with the
14 inch wheels (especially in recently updated sites.) I've looked at a
number of online reviews of tires.
The P3000 Pirelli is now available in that size. Its an 85,000 mile
tire with generally good online ratings (for what its worth), in
particular rain traction (I'm the pacific north wet after all.) I've
found them available for under $70 each and am leaning toward that
tire. If I choose it I will be able to comment on its rolling
resistance based on what it does to the Prius fuel mileage :-)
Paul "neon" G.
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
---------------------------------
What are the most popular cars? Find out at Yahoo! Autos
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ariel Atom ;-]
For those who won't have allergic reactions to ice fumes watch this
video done by Clarkson on BBC's Top Gear auto program. These guys get to
play with all sorts of megabuck exotic cars both ice and electric. So
when they get excited about something it can be interesting. To explain
(sort of) when Clarkson makes the comment that the Atom doesn't just
accelerate it rips your face off that should be a hint. Enjoy.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6514168251893889573&q=ariel+atom
Dave
> > I love EVs....I love quick and fast EVs, however, to call the
> Wright Speed
> > a 'car' is really a stretch. Showing this rolling tube chassis beating
> > expensive exotica seems silly. This thing doesn't have a roof,
> or doors or
> > any real body to speak of. It's a rolling tube skeleton being
> tauted as a
> > 'car'...give me a break! It's another one of AC Propulsion's tricks of
> > using something that barely passes as a car, then pitting it
> against real
> > cars.
>
> The car is an Aerial Atom, in ICE form the fastest accelerating
> road car in
> the world (with supercharged V-tec). It's also one of the best
> handling cars
> in the world and is an awsome car to throw around a track. It's the
> spiritual sucessor of the Lotus 6 or 7, the minimum amount of car for the
> job. Costing £28,000 it's beaten the worlds most powerful, exotic, and
> expensive supercars around a moderately tight test track.
>
> It's not a fair comparison.
>
> Paul Compton
> www.sciroccoev.co.uk
> www.morini-mania.co.uk
> www.compton.vispa.com/the_named
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here in the northeast, most every car or truck that old has long since
rusted out. It would work, though, for someone in that area who wanted to
build and sell conversions. Generally, someone wanting to do their own
conversion will choose something local rather than shipping a glider across
the country. However, a completed EV could be shipped anywhere.
Dave Davidson
From: Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: New Kits
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 23:02:15 -0800
There are a ton of 76(?)-90s Toyota pickups and even more car models that
used the venerable 20/22R/RE engine (all with the same basic block). This
would give you a very large bang-for-the buck when it comes to adapters,
motor mounts, and the tranny parts are quite easy to come by (even new).
Includes many hop-ups, aftermarket suspension upgrades, various rear-end
gears, and other assorted sundries.
Just a wish. You can pick up very nice used Toyotas quite inexpensively
around here (Pacific Northwest)... are other regions the same?
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 09:05:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Left Coast Conversions wants to offer some new kits to
the conversion market. We believe that the rising cost
of fuel will continue to bring new users to the ev
market. The cars we choose should have enough units on
the road to be able to find gliders. They should also
be cars that people will want to drive. So far we are
looking at a PT cruiser and a Miata. What other kitw
would you all like to see available? Thanks in advance
for the input.
Gadget
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Lee Hart wrote:
> I didn't care if I lost the house or car due to an accident that was
> my fault. Now, married with kids etc. my wife won't accept such an
> attitude.
(Snorts...shakes head)
Women...
Marv
Culver City, CA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A buddy just sent this to me out of the blue this morning. This isn't a dig to
the electric dragsters, more of a goal to shoot for. I say we first take the
Lingenfelter "twin-turbo" powered Corvette Z06, then on to the larger prey :-)
Mike.
**************************************************************************************
"Acceleration" Defined
One top fuel dragster 500 cubic inch Hemi engine makes more horsepower
than the first 4 rows of stock cars at the Daytona 500.
Under full throttle, a dragster engine consumes 1-1/2 gallons of nitro
methane per second; a fully loaded 747 consumes jet fuel at the same rate
with 25% less energy being produced.
A stock Dodge Hemi V8 engine cannot produce enough power to drive the
dragster's supercharger. With 3,000 CFM of air being rammed in by the
supercharger on overdrive, the fuel mixture is compressed into a
near-solid form before ignition.
Cylinders run on the verge of hydraulic lock at full throttle. At the
stoichiometric (stoichiometry: methodology and technology by which
quantities of reactants and products in chemical reactions are determined)
1.7:1 air/fuel mixture of nitro methane, the flame front temperature
measures 7,050 deg F.
Nitro methane burns yellow. The spectacular white flame seen above the
stacks at night is raw burning hydrogen, dissociated from atmospheric
water vapor by the searing exhaust gases.
Dual magnetos supply 44 amps to each spark plug. This is the output of an
arc welder in each cylinder. Spark plug electrodes are totally consumed
during a pass. After halfway, the engine is dieseling from compression,
plus the glow of exhaust valves at 1,400 deg F. The engine can only
be shut down by cutting the fuel flow.
If spark momentarily fails early in the run, unburned nitro builds up in
the affected cylinders and then explodes with sufficient force to blow
cylinder heads off the block in pieces or split the block in half.
In order to exceed 300 mph in 4.5 seconds, dragsters must accelerate an
average of over 4G's. In order to reach 200 mph (well before half-track),
the launch acceleration approaches 8G's.
Dragsters reach over 300 miles per hour before you have completed reading
this sentence. Top fuel engines turn approximately 540 revolutions from
light to light! Including the burnout, the engine must only survive 900
revolutions under load.
The redline is actually quite high at 9,500 rpm. Assuming all the
equipment is paid off, the crew worked for free, and for once NOTHING BLOWS
UP, each run costs an estimate $1,000.00 per second.
The current top fuel dragster elapsed time record is 4.441 seconds for the
quarter mile (10/05/03, Tony Schumacher). The top speed record is 333.00
mph (533 km/h) as measured over the last 66' of the run (09/28/03 Doug
Kalitta).
Putting all of this into perspective, picture this scenario: You are
driving the average $140,000 Lingenfelter "twin-turbo" powered Corvette Z06.
Over a mile up the road, a top fuel dragster is staged and ready to launch
down a quarter mile strip as you pass. You have the advantage of a flying
start.
You run the 'Vette hard up through the gears and blast across the starting
line and pass the dragster at an honest 200 mph. The "tree" goes green for
both of you at that moment.
The dragster launches and starts after you. You keep your foot down hard,
but you hear an incredibly brutal whine that sears your eardrums and
within 3 seconds, the dragster catches and passes you. He beats you to the
finish line, a quarter mile away from where you just passed him.
Think about it, from a standing start, the dragster had spotted you 200
mph and not only caught, but nearly blasted you off the road when he passed
you within a mere 1,320 foot long race course.
... and that my friend, is ACCELERATION!
----- Original Message -----
From: Gnat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 2:14 pm
Subject: RE: Whooie, elec does it again!
To: [email protected]
> Ariel Atom ;-]
>
> For those who won't have allergic reactions to ice fumes watch this
> video done by Clarkson on BBC's Top Gear auto program. These guys
> get to
> play with all sorts of megabuck exotic cars both ice and electric. So
> when they get excited about something it can be interesting. To
> explain(sort of) when Clarkson makes the comment that the Atom
> doesn't just
> accelerate it rips your face off that should be a hint. Enjoy.
>
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6514168251893889573&q=ariel+atom
>
> Dave
>
> > > I love EVs....I love quick and fast EVs, however, to call the
> > Wright Speed
> > > a 'car' is really a stretch. Showing this rolling tube chassis
> beating> > expensive exotica seems silly. This thing doesn't have
> a roof,
> > or doors or
> > > any real body to speak of. It's a rolling tube skeleton being
> > tauted as a
> > > 'car'...give me a break! It's another one of AC Propulsion's
> tricks of
> > > using something that barely passes as a car, then pitting it
> > against real
> > > cars.
> >
> > The car is an Aerial Atom, in ICE form the fastest accelerating
> > road car in
> > the world (with supercharged V-tec). It's also one of the best
> > handling cars
> > in the world and is an awsome car to throw around a track. It's the
> > spiritual sucessor of the Lotus 6 or 7, the minimum amount of
> car for the
> > job. Costing £28,000 it's beaten the worlds most powerful,
> exotic, and
> > expensive supercars around a moderately tight test track.
> >
> > It's not a fair comparison.
> >
> > Paul Compton
> > www.sciroccoev.co.uk
> > www.morini-mania.co.uk
> > www.compton.vispa.com/the_named
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Robison wrote:
The only car to which the Wrightspeed
can be compared is the Ariel Atom (http://arielmotor.co.uk), which *is*
most likely the most acceleration and agility you can get on four wheels
for the price, anywhere. And I believe this comparison would be brutal to
the Wrightspeed.
The Ariel Atom does 0-60 in 3.5 seconds (
http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,12529-1267303,00.html )
according to Top Gear. No word on the 1/4 mile as far as I can see.
Assuming the 0-60 is accurate in both articles the Wrightspeed meets or
exceeds the Atom's original performance.
Regardless it's hardly what I'd call "brutalized" by the ICE vehicle
whose chassis it uses.
-Alaric
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just got back from seeing Who Killed the Electric Car?
http://www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com at the Sundance Film Festival.
Scroll down to the +++Review Starts Here+++ if you want to skip
some Sundance Film Festival details.
First a little background on seeing the film at the Sundance Film
Festival: I first heard about the movie on the Electric Vehicle
Discussion List (EVDL) http://www.evdl.org . I found out the dates
for ticket sales, and logged in http://www.sundance.org . To my
horror, those dates were for presales. Since I had not signed up for
presales, I couldnt buy a ticket. Only one showing was still open,
at 8:30 a.m. (as in the morning) on Tuesday. By the end of presales
all of the showings were sold out.
So now it was plan B. You can just show up before the film and hope
there are some no-shows. I figured that the early morning showing was
my best bet, since it sold out last and since people probably didnt
want to get up early.
I got up 2 hours earlier than normal. It was 20F (-5 C) at my house,
so I estimated it might be as cold as 0F (-15C) in Park City (home of
the 2002 Winter Olympics). I put on a lot of clothing and was glad I
did.
I drove 45 miles, and the parking lot was almost completely empty. I
followed what looked like some college students, thinking they were
going to the film. It turns out they were high school students going
to school. Even with the mile of walking delay, I got to the theatre
50 minutes early. I was able to buy a ticket directly, yay! They let
us in about 30 minutes before show time. I was about the 20th person
in the theatre. By showtime the theatre was maybe 2/3 full (which
then confused me why the web site said it was sold out).
The director introduced the film. Afterwards, the director, some of
his production crew, and some of the actors answered questions
that was great. It was also really neat the crowd was really into the
film, paying rapt attention, and asked (for the most part)
intelligent questions afterwards. After the movie I walked up and
down Main Street in Park City. It is very picturesque with antique
shops, restaurants, pubs, and serviced by a ski lift. I might have
seen somewhere between 0 and 20 famous people, but since I dont
watch TV or movies much I didnt recognize anyone (alledgedly one
reason to go to the Sundance Film Festival is to see famous people).
+++Review Starts Here+++
First a few words on what the film was not. I was afraid it might be
just a series of moron-in-the-street interviews. Luckily, the
interviewees included scientists, politicians, electric car technical
people, electric car activists, and a small number of
man-in-the-street interviews. I was also afraid it might be a
Capitalism Bad, Government Good movie. In contrast I thought it was
fair in spreading the blame between government, big oil, car
companies, and consumers. A similar fear was it might be a
Republican Bad, Democrats Good kind of movie. I found it to be
neutral and factual; indeed I dont think the words Republican or
Democrat were ever used. I was afraid the movie might just beat the
No war for oil drum, but there was very little on that. Finally, I
was afraid the movie might take itself too seriously, or be without
hope. Thankfully, it did have some great comic relief moments (that
still made a good point) and ended with some good positive notes. The
film will appeal to a broader audience than I first figured.
The movie starts with a brief history of electric cars and quickly
delves into the modern era of major manufacturer freeway capable
electrics, the GM EV1, the Toyota RAV4EV, the Think, the Nissan Altra
(sp?), and the Honda EV+. I love the scenes with the EV1 tearing
around. One scene shows a drag race between the EV1, a Miata, and a
Nissan 300ZX. The EV1 destroyed them. Another one of my favorite
scenes was EV1 vs. Hummer at a racetrack.
The history of the cars is followed, including how all these fine
cars were crushed. Personal note, I rented EV1s twice and drove maybe
700 miles total. I loved drag racing a brand new Lexus from a stop
light and beating it. It was painful to see the pictures of crushed
or about to be crushed EV1s and EV+s. Also highlighted were some of
the activists efforts to save the cars.
In parallel, a political history is followed. Most of the attention
is on the California Air Resources Board (CARB), how their zero
emissions mandate sparked the cars, and how their removing the
mandate doomed them. Dovetailing with this are the lobbying efforts
by the big car companies. The Federal Corporate Fleet Average Economy
(CAFE) standards are also discussed. Oil statistics are given.
Sprinkled throughout are short interviews with auto industry execs,
CARB scientists, electric car engineers, politicians, Hollywood
Stars, owners, and activists. I especially liked interviews with Stan
Ovinsky (inventor of the Nimh battery) and Chelsea, the EV1
specialist (salesperson) turned electric car activist. I also thought
it was neat she was at the showing and answered audience questions
and then some of my questions afterwards.
The movie sums up with ranking as guilty or not guilty government,
big oil, car companies, and consumers. Youll have to see the movie
for that tally.
Rounding out the discussion are quick looks at Hydrogen Fuel Cell
vehicles (the movie claims they are 4x more inefficient than battery
electrics), hybrids (these do hold a lot of promise), and a very
quick look at what I think was Reverend Gadget of Left Coast
Conversions converting an old gas car to electric power.
The only EVDL things I recognized in the credits were Left Coast
Conversions and David Goldstein.
Overall summary, great film, I enjoyed it. It was definitely worth
the trip.
+++After movie Q&A+++
Chris Paine thinks hybrids are a promising technology. He mentioned
the Plug-in Prius project, which is adding batteries to a Toyota
Prius so it can be run a useful number of miles on pure electricity.
Someone is supposed to start selling a $10k or $12k kit to do this to
a Prius.
He has a few more weeks to work on the film for its final version.
The movie has been picked up by Sony and is due for release late
spring or early fall. They need to have a good first 3 weeks for the
movie to succeed.
He didnt have time in the film to talk about everything. For
instance, Neighborhood Electric Vehicles (NEVs), basically golf
carts, are getting popular in some communities.
Chris placed blame on the consumers, too. Apparently the big hurdle
for many people was the perceived need for a car that would go to Las
Vegas.
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Neon John wrote:
PS: If they want to do an actual hotrod-vs-hotrod, let's roll out a
Callaway or Linginfelter 'Vette or a nicely warmed up Buick GN and see
who comes out on top.
Then we'll bring out a top fuel dragster and see who comes out on top.
Hey, I love Lingenfelter and Callaway 'Vettes and a friend of mine had a
hopped up Grand National that was a blast in a straight line, but what
exactly does that have to do with someone using AC Propulsion's system
in an Ariel Atom?
Sure, a Lingenfelter Twin Turbo can do 0-60 in 1.97 seconds and the 1/4
mile in 9.24. So can a heavily modified '65 VW Sedan dragster. Does
that devalue the Lingenfelter Vette?
It's fun for folks on this list to get excited about high performance
electric vehicles. If the car in question actually performs as stated,
then it's doing a good job for what it is. And, unlike the T-Zero, it's
based on an "actual car" (the Atom). Sure it's no more practical than
the Manx buggy one of my co-workers drives during the summer, but that
doesn't make it a complete waste of time. Hell, my boss is a collector
of cars (not to mention being a science and technology junkie) and he
loved the rather impractical 1999 Ranger conversion that Mark Farver did
and if someone would just actually start selling a high performance
vehicle like the T-Zero; he'd buy one.
Concept cars and high performance one-offs are fun and do help to raise
awareness. They shouldn't be the only thing coming out of the EV world,
but their limited focus doesn't negate their use in promoting the
concept of an EV as a viable (if somewhat impractical at times)
repalcement for an ICE vehicle..
I totally understand the distaste for trumped up press releases and
suspect tech data, but it would be nice if the resulting commentary was
a bit less vitriol and a little more constructive criticism.
-Alaric
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You're right, actually acceleration is nearly the same. About 7 seconds
0-100 for the X1, 6.8 or so on the Atom. Though it didn't come across
this way at all in my clumsily written post, the "comparison" I intended
was a general one between the two cars. Though acceleration is
competitive, I will remain skeptical of the X1's overall performance until
I see a direct comparison on a road course. Or on an oval, where the X1's
top speed of 112mph will hurt it (the Atom tops at 140).
Due to the X1 using the Ariel's body I think it will be natural for people
to compare the two cars directly, and I think this will emphasize the
known differences in price and top speed. I also think the X1 will be
measurably less agile, though I'll be excited to be proven wrong.
All of this is in addition to my agreement with opinions already posted,
that the comparison between either of these "cars" and a fully appointed
sports car is highly unrealistic. Top Gear definitely had it right when
comparing the Atom against a crotchrocket. Aside from the seating position
and two additional wheels, that's really what these cars are.
--chris
On Tue, January 24, 2006 6:03 pm, Alaric G. Weigle said:
> Chris Robison wrote:
>
>> The only car to which the Wrightspeed
>>can be compared is the Ariel Atom (http://arielmotor.co.uk), which *is*
>>most likely the most acceleration and agility you can get on four wheels
>>for the price, anywhere. And I believe this comparison would be brutal
>> to
>>the Wrightspeed.
>>
>>
> The Ariel Atom does 0-60 in 3.5 seconds (
> http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,12529-1267303,00.html )
> according to Top Gear. No word on the 1/4 mile as far as I can see.
>
> Assuming the 0-60 is accurate in both articles the Wrightspeed meets or
> exceeds the Atom's original performance.
>
> Regardless it's hardly what I'd call "brutalized" by the ICE vehicle
> whose chassis it uses.
>
> -Alaric
>
>
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Roland, thanks for the answer and sorry to hear about your family
members. I was implying in general, not necessarily family members,
and not unauthorized use. Like if you let your friend (non-relative)
to borrow your car for a single ride or for a weekend.
You said your insurance does not cover your car, it covers you.
So your friend in your car could be technically uninsured, right?
That is if your friend has more conventional insurance which covers
him only while in *his own* car he assigned to, not while driving
anything else out there (like your car).
So if he injures someone while taking your car for a ride, I wonder
who's paying for the injury treatment (in your state)?
Victor
Roland Wiench wrote:
If a unauthorized person takes your car, or steels it, your insurance
covers it. Anyway all my family members are dead, except one who is
in a retirement home. Roland
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On Tue, January 24, 2006 7:02 pm, Alaric G. Weigle said:
> Hell, my boss is a collector
> of cars (not to mention being a science and technology junkie) and he
> loved the rather impractical 1999 Ranger conversion that Mark Farver did
> and if someone would just actually start selling a high performance
> vehicle like the T-Zero; he'd buy one.
Not to nitpick, but I'm not sure if Farver's the kind of guy to defend
himself on this one, so I'll give it a shot. To call the Ranger
"impractical" would be, I think, to say as much for any garage-built EV.
There were design issues, and a better platform could have been chosen,
but the truck actually had decent range and efficiency with the Siemens AC
drive, some cargo capacity left, and remember that this was a vehicle that
the owner drove every day, for very long distances. I think what was
perhaps wanting was the applicability of a homebrew EV for his particular
situation. It was Farver's first (and mine too, for my minor portion of
the work) but I think it turned out rather well overall.
The practicality of any given vehicle is relative to the situation in
which it's used. Your two-seater would not be practical as an only vehicle
for a large family; a homebrew EV may not be so practical for a rural
residence and a very long commute.
I figure I probably don't have the full story, but I just wanted to pitch
that in there. Clarifications/corrections welcome...
> Concept cars and high performance one-offs are fun and do help to raise
> awareness. They shouldn't be the only thing coming out of the EV world,
> but their limited focus doesn't negate their use in promoting the
> concept of an EV as a viable (if somewhat impractical at times)
> repalcement for an ICE vehicle..
I think in general, high-performance cars are going to be the
standard-bearers and poster children for EVs in general, until battery
technology and manufacturing improvements bring 300+ mile range to the
working class. I see it as a recognition of where an EV's potential is.
Right now, that's in performance, not range. This reduces the EV's
practicality, but I think the most effectively deliverable message at the
moment is that though an EV might not be useful for all of your driving,
it's useful for *most* of it, and you might as well have fun on the way.
--chris
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MIKE & PAULA WILLMON wrote:
A buddy just sent this to me out of the blue this morning. This
isn't a dig to the electric dragsters, more of a goal to shoot for.
I say we first take the Lingenfelter "twin-turbo" powered Corvette
Z06, then on to the larger prey :-) Mike.
...
Putting all of this into perspective, picture this scenario: You are
driving the average $140,000 Lingenfelter "twin-turbo" powered
Corvette Z06. Over a mile up the road, a top fuel dragster is
staged and ready to launch down a quarter mile strip as you pass.
You have the advantage of a flying start.
...
And so on.
Why not then just buy/build and install a rocket jet on a wheels
And create a class for it) if pure acceleration rate is of the
interest and apparently money is no object?
I guess because no more fun since no driver can even survive, or it
doesn't really matter? Rhetorical question I suppose.
Victor
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Michael,
I have two of the motors you are using, although I
haven't put as many miles on them as you, I check the
brushes whenever I have them out and the wear is
minimal. I think Rod may be on the right track. One
easy way to find out is to look at how your motor is
terminated to your controller. Can you tell us where
the positive and negative cables are connected as well
as the jumper?
Hang tight,
Jimmy
>>This may be too obvious, but I thought I would
mention
it.
The GE motor you have is the one given to many high
schools
and colleges when I worked at GE back in the early to
mid 90's.
The Honda civic had a transmission that turned the
opposite direction of that intended. This caused lots
of arcing and sparcing not to mention less efficient
opperation. Since the brushes are advanced for one
direction of rotation I wonder if your vehicle is
turning in the opposite. Sorry I can't find the
proper rotation, but I think it can be found in the
archives.
Rod
--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Michael A. Radtke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > From my earlier post, you may have seen that my
> Jet
> > ElectraVan is down again, this time in an
> expensive way.
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It's not a dig on the Ranger. Not only was the Ranger conversion a very
well done one, but it was better than most of the EV's I've seen, garage
built or otherwise. Not bad for a first effort at all. Rather
impressive, actually.
My comment was in response to Neon's expressed view of practicality.
The "average joe consumer" perspective as it were. Your comment
regarding "any garage-built EV" is right on the money and part of my
point. Garage built EV's are not, by in large, practical in the sense
that average joe consumer understands. Nor are high end two-seat,
doorless concept/exotic cars. Despite that, there are a fair number of
individuals who one could classify as early adopters that have the funds
and the inclination to purchase such vehicles. Folks not obsessed with
EV evangelism, but interested in new technology and willing to take the
trade-offs associated with it.
Dismissing vehicles like the T-Zero and its kin as "impractical" and
offering nothing that a $100K Lingenfelter 'Vette couldn't give you more
of is disingenuous and narrow visioned. What I was trying to convey to
Neon was that a 1999 Ford Ranger EV, a first time effort, clandestinely
converted in an apartment garage, with a 20-30 mile range, and slightly
less performance (at the time it was shown) than the original was enough
to draw excited interest from my boss. The T-Zero had him even more
excited. Then he found out he couldn't just go and buy one.
Practicality is not really the concern of the kind of early adopters
that new vehicle technology goes to first. They want speed, they want
performance, and most of all they want something that no one else has
yet. And they'll trade almost anything else to get it. And then when
they drive their strange ugly/beautiful vehicles around they attract the
attention of the next tier of adopters. And so on and so on.
At any rate, that was the point I was trying to make when I called the
Ranger "impractical."
-Alaric
Chris Robison wrote:
Not to nitpick, but I'm not sure if Farver's the kind of guy to defend
himself on this one, so I'll give it a shot. To call the Ranger
"impractical" would be, I think, to say as much for any garage-built EV.
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Thanks for the review. I can't wait to see it.
David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I just got back from seeing Who
Killed the Electric Car?
http://www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com at the Sundance Film Festival.
Scroll down to the +++Review Starts Here+++ if you want to skip
some Sundance Film Festival details.
First a little background on seeing the film at the Sundance Film
Festival: I first heard about the movie on the Electric Vehicle
Discussion List (EVDL) http://www.evdl.org . I found out the dates
for ticket sales, and logged in http://www.sundance.org . To my
horror, those dates were for presales. Since I had not signed up for
presales, I couldnt buy a ticket. Only one showing was still open,
at 8:30 a.m. (as in the morning) on Tuesday. By the end of presales
all of the showings were sold out.
So now it was plan B. You can just show up before the film and hope
there are some no-shows. I figured that the early morning showing was
my best bet, since it sold out last and since people probably didnt
want to get up early.
I got up 2 hours earlier than normal. It was 20F (-5 C) at my house,
so I estimated it might be as cold as 0F (-15C) in Park City (home of
the 2002 Winter Olympics). I put on a lot of clothing and was glad I
did.
I drove 45 miles, and the parking lot was almost completely empty. I
followed what looked like some college students, thinking they were
going to the film. It turns out they were high school students going
to school. Even with the mile of walking delay, I got to the theatre
50 minutes early. I was able to buy a ticket directly, yay! They let
us in about 30 minutes before show time. I was about the 20th person
in the theatre. By showtime the theatre was maybe 2/3 full (which
then confused me why the web site said it was sold out).
The director introduced the film. Afterwards, the director, some of
his production crew, and some of the actors answered questions
that was great. It was also really neat the crowd was really into the
film, paying rapt attention, and asked (for the most part)
intelligent questions afterwards. After the movie I walked up and
down Main Street in Park City. It is very picturesque with antique
shops, restaurants, pubs, and serviced by a ski lift. I might have
seen somewhere between 0 and 20 famous people, but since I dont
watch TV or movies much I didnt recognize anyone (alledgedly one
reason to go to the Sundance Film Festival is to see famous people).
+++Review Starts Here+++
First a few words on what the film was not. I was afraid it might be
just a series of moron-in-the-street interviews. Luckily, the
interviewees included scientists, politicians, electric car technical
people, electric car activists, and a small number of
man-in-the-street interviews. I was also afraid it might be a
Capitalism Bad, Government Good movie. In contrast I thought it was
fair in spreading the blame between government, big oil, car
companies, and consumers. A similar fear was it might be a
Republican Bad, Democrats Good kind of movie. I found it to be
neutral and factual; indeed I dont think the words Republican or
Democrat were ever used. I was afraid the movie might just beat the
No war for oil drum, but there was very little on that. Finally, I
was afraid the movie might take itself too seriously, or be without
hope. Thankfully, it did have some great comic relief moments (that
still made a good point) and ended with some good positive notes. The
film will appeal to a broader audience than I first figured.
The movie starts with a brief history of electric cars and quickly
delves into the modern era of major manufacturer freeway capable
electrics, the GM EV1, the Toyota RAV4EV, the Think, the Nissan Altra
(sp?), and the Honda EV+. I love the scenes with the EV1 tearing
around. One scene shows a drag race between the EV1, a Miata, and a
Nissan 300ZX. The EV1 destroyed them. Another one of my favorite
scenes was EV1 vs. Hummer at a racetrack.
The history of the cars is followed, including how all these fine
cars were crushed. Personal note, I rented EV1s twice and drove maybe
700 miles total. I loved drag racing a brand new Lexus from a stop
light and beating it. It was painful to see the pictures of crushed
or about to be crushed EV1s and EV+s. Also highlighted were some of
the activists efforts to save the cars.
In parallel, a political history is followed. Most of the attention
is on the California Air Resources Board (CARB), how their zero
emissions mandate sparked the cars, and how their removing the
mandate doomed them. Dovetailing with this are the lobbying efforts
by the big car companies. The Federal Corporate Fleet Average Economy
(CAFE) standards are also discussed. Oil statistics are given.
Sprinkled throughout are short interviews with auto industry execs,
CARB scientists, electric car engineers, politicians, Hollywood
Stars, owners, and activists. I especially liked interviews with Stan
Ovinsky (inventor of the Nimh battery) and Chelsea, the EV1
specialist (salesperson) turned electric car activist. I also thought
it was neat she was at the showing and answered audience questions
and then some of my questions afterwards.
The movie sums up with ranking as guilty or not guilty government,
big oil, car companies, and consumers. Youll have to see the movie
for that tally.
Rounding out the discussion are quick looks at Hydrogen Fuel Cell
vehicles (the movie claims they are 4x more inefficient than battery
electrics), hybrids (these do hold a lot of promise), and a very
quick look at what I think was Reverend Gadget of Left Coast
Conversions converting an old gas car to electric power.
The only EVDL things I recognized in the credits were Left Coast
Conversions and David Goldstein.
Overall summary, great film, I enjoyed it. It was definitely worth
the trip.
+++After movie Q&A+++
Chris Paine thinks hybrids are a promising technology. He mentioned
the Plug-in Prius project, which is adding batteries to a Toyota
Prius so it can be run a useful number of miles on pure electricity.
Someone is supposed to start selling a $10k or $12k kit to do this to
a Prius.
He has a few more weeks to work on the film for its final version.
The movie has been picked up by Sony and is due for release late
spring or early fall. They need to have a good first 3 weeks for the
movie to succeed.
He didnt have time in the film to talk about everything. For
instance, Neighborhood Electric Vehicles (NEVs), basically golf
carts, are getting popular in some communities.
Chris placed blame on the consumers, too. Apparently the big hurdle
for many people was the perceived need for a car that would go to Las
Vegas.
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