EV Digest 5133
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: A new EV Vacuum pump? (Definitely thinking out of the box....)
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Cost of EV operation
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Vacuum pump
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) re:Increasing Range
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Increasing Range
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Increasing Range
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: How to download? (Re: Futurecrush)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Increasing Range
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Increasing Range
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Increasing Range
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: A new EV Vacuum pump? (Definitely thinking out of the box....)
by Darin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Increasing Range
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Increasing Range
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) re:increasing range
by kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 99 Ranger EV on E-Bay in LA (no reserve) Item number: 4607082651
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Increasing Range
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: How to download? (Re: Futurecrush)
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Cost of EV operation
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Increasing Range
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: pulse & glide for EVs
by Darin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: pulse & glide for EVs
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Cost of EV operation
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: need help moving car
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Increasing Range
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Increasing Range
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Cost of EV operation (And 200 miles range on flooded lead acid?)
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Increasing Range
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
And the alternatives are ......???
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> >> Technical specs on the pumps are hard to find, but here's one
from
> > a similar product by Medela, a leading mfr.. It's a 12V suction
> > pump for home medical use that makes "up to 550 mm Hg vacuum and
27
> > Ipm flow".
>
> Seriously, I think this will not work. Breast pumps are usually
> diaphragm models, and tend to take a while to build up vacuum. The
real
> problem however will be duty cycle and bypassing the suction
release valves.
>
> It's never going to hold up. And try explaining this to the judge
when
> you rear-end someone :-)
>
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am now more determined to get back on the road.
This weekend I am proving the part about maintanence costs of owning an
ICE.
In the first 4 years, this is probably not an issue but as a car gets
older....
I am replacing the intake manifold to appease the smog gods. I changed
the motor and the egr didn't mount correctly so I made an adapter. They
will not put the sniffer in the pipe like they did the last 2 smogs and
see that is passes with flying colors (I was told Since the adapter was
made by me not GM, it wasn't tested and would have to be replaced)
I decided to replace the plugs and wires becasue replaceing the plugs on
this car are a real chore.
$84.00
Then I needed gaskets
$75.00
working on a (95) GM product, priceless, (well you couldn't pay me enough.)
to get the manifold off is a joke, studs in the exhaust are in the
way of removing the valve cover bolts, the valve covers are 1/2 on the
intake and 1/2 on the head. The last cover bolt is behind the
alternator, need to take it off. The last intake bolt is behind the
power steering pump I will need to take it off, but.... the last power
steering pump bolt is behind the motor mount so gotta get a hoist to
support motor and take off the mount.
After all this I am doubtfull it will pass smog, the intake will be all
wrong for the heads. The ECM program will be "off".
It takes engineering to make sure every part requires removal of the
rest. Man are they good at it.
Before I get to off-topic the point of this *rant* is that this is one
of the major secondary reasons I am going electric. The obvious
availability for simplified and clean construction.
As we design adapters, battery racks and conversion kits, we need to
avoid repeating the "big 3's" mistakes. This is a challenge because we
are forced to use 90% of the car they force on us. Anyone who had a
production EV? tell me, did they managed to make them overly complicated?
So. I want to get even deeper into the EV's The 300zx will do everything
I need around town, I want to start thinking of a cruiser for longer
trips. Take for example the trip to Sonora from fresno. just over 100
miles, but ending in a couple thousand foot climb. I don't think lead is
a good choice for this (do to deminishing return on weight/range). Nimh
is unavail and nicad is environmentally hard to get. At the moment, I
am thinking of just renting a car for those few times a year I go to
sonora and the bay area, but suggestions? I currently have 2 old cars,
and there is a backlog of work to be done on them.
trailer hitch and a good genny?
trailer hitch and a secondary pack?
lipoly,AC,etc?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is it a Thomas or GAST or ??
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:43 AM 1/29/2006, Jeff Shanab wrote:
How much range could be had if EVERYTHING except drive was on it's own
36V pack.
Not much, since the Heater runs off pack voltage, it's the worst
offender. Everything else only draws like 1-2A from the pack.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:04 AM 1/29/2006, Ralph Merwin wrote:
I would suggest selling the DCP controller and buying a Z1K HV, with
an input voltage range from 72-300v. Then you can add the additional
cells (and more if you can find room) without playing games with odd
DC/DCs or inverters.
Tempting, but that is a $3000 investment.
I was hoping to spend less.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:31 PM 1/29/2006, Lee Hart wrote:
How about a battery-to-battery charger? Have a small pack of whatever
voltage, and a DC/DC converter to step this up to charge your main pack.
This converter can be over 90% efficient if you pick it carefully (for
example, Vicor modules).
Finding one is the problem.
This converter doesn't have to be isolated; non-isolated converters are
a bit more efficient. Do you have one of Rudman's PFC chargers? It could
be used as your DC/DC while driving, and rewired as your charger while
parked.
I do have a PFC-20, and no, you can't really do that.
In order to make it work at 36V input, it would no longer work well
at normal hi-voltage input.
If your DC/DC is isolated, its output doesn't need to be the full pack
voltage; just the difference between the main pack and booster pack. The
main pack is charged by the booster pack plus the DC/DC's output in
series.
That's only a 36V difference in the output, not much to go through
all the extra (weird) hassle for.
How many of the Thundersky LiIons do you still have that are in good
working order? Mine are useless for high currents, but do quite well at
low currents. If your commute takes over an hour, the LiIons can be
slowly discharging to charge the nicad pack.
Good working order? Yeah, right...
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
Victor asked john whats the secret? I wonder if the answer is "don't use
windows"
O' yes, heard this before. Let's not go to the mac/pc war, it's
worse than ac/dc one :-)
I got it to download with no problem, I just clicked on the link. There
must be a fallback to work when the OS and browser are not windows. I
don't have a Mac, yet. But I think John does. If so, might I suggest a
less "integrated" browser. :-)
I too use Firefox, I don't have explorer active on my machine.
The Firefox is a stand alone browser.
I do as everyone suggest - click on download button and it presents
"save as" dialog in another pop-up window. But when I click "save"
there, it saves only few hundred bytes text file describing video
content ("This is an interview of EV enthusiasts......"), instead of
actual video. I use w2k.
I suppose source .avi file is somewhere out there on the web
downloadable "normally", but haven't searched for it yet.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
My Sparrow currently uses about 195 Wh/mile.
I have 137 BB600 NiCd cell in it, for a nominal pack voltage of 164v,
and a peak charging voltage of 205v.
...
I can add another 30 cells (36V) to the bird, and only make it medium
..
AARRGGHH!!! So close and yet so far!
John,
How about leaving 137 cells working as is, and use modestly
powerful isolated DC-DC to raise voltage of only these extra
30 cells, connecting output of the DC-DC
in addition (in parallel) to the main pack just helping it
to extend your range 6 miles that way? That way DC-DC doesn't
have to handle full controller power, only boost main pack a bit.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:24 AM 1/29/2006, Christopher Zach wrote:
Sure. Tripp-Lite makes a 2400 watt 36 volt inverter. With a charger
as well. A lot of Elec-trak people seem to like it.
Well, the only one I can find is a 3600 Watt inverter, and it costs
around $800 for the 120V output model, and $900 for the 240V output.
Could also do a 36 volt rotary inverter, but might be complicated.
How much time do you have on the ferry to charge?
My commute is 17 miles down the Island at around 55-60MPH, then 20
minutes (or so) parked on the Ferry (sure wish I could charge while
there!), then 5.5 miles at 35-45mph, then 9.5 miles on the freeway.
(up to 70mph, but I could go in the slow lane and keep it down to
55-60. Or add 2 miles to take surface streets.)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 03:19 PM 1/29/2006, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
How about leaving 137 cells working as is, and use modestly
powerful isolated DC-DC to raise voltage of only these extra
30 cells, connecting output of the DC-DC
in addition (in parallel) to the main pack just helping it
to extend your range 6 miles that way? That way DC-DC doesn't
have to handle full controller power, only boost main pack a bit.
I'd love to do that, BUT I need to find a 36V to 170V DC-DC that can
do about 2000W.
Know of any?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
jmygann wrote:
And the alternatives are ......???
Supplemental Vacuum Pumps
(you can find these pumps on the following cars in wrecking yards:)
http://www.california.com/~eagle/figs/vacpump/vac.html
spotted at http://www.evconvert.com/article/links-011706
Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
At 10:24 AM 1/29/2006, Christopher Zach wrote:
Sure. Tripp-Lite makes a 2400 watt 36 volt inverter. With a charger as
well. A lot of Elec-trak people seem to like it.
Well, the only one I can find is a 3600 Watt inverter, and it costs
around $800 for the 120V output model, and $900 for the 240V output.
That's it. I don't know if you can charge on the fly; if you could you
can go from 36volts to 120 to your whatever charger.
So how much range will this give you? Well, 36 volts at 30 amp hrs would
be 1080 watt hrs of power. If your Sparrow runs at 150wh/mile, that's
around 7 miles or so range, assuming no loss. Assuming 90% eff on
charger and 90% on AC inverter you're down to about 5.8 miles. Will that
be enough?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Two probably non-workable ideas:
1) Could you just have the 30 cells standing by idle for the first part of
the trip, then when you're sitting on the ferry or about to enter the
freeway and maybe your voltage has dropped to 156V, switch them in series?
You'd get only part of the full SOC out of the 30 cells, but it might be
enough.
OR
2) How fast will your Sparrow go on 36V? For the 5.5 mile part of the trip,
could you just switch to the 36V pack, bypassing the controller? Have them
on a one-contactor contactor controller that you turn on or off.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about wiring your extra cells in series/parallel to get a total of 12 to
14V output, then run it through a cheap commercial inverter. Rectify
the output, run a parallel line through a 12V transformer, rectify that, and
wire the two outputs in series. (i.e. modified bad boy.) Should
result in about 185 volts, which you could wire in parallel with your main pack
to slowly reinforce it as your pack voltage drops. Or, add a 24V
transformer instead for about 200V total output and charge up a little on the
ferry. Recharge your 12V pack separately at each end, of
course. Crude and inefficient, but it might buy you a little extra range for
about $100 worth of readily available equipment.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's item number 4608560154
Dave
From deep within our secret soul
do demons dwell and take their toll
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 6:23 AM
Subject: 99 Ranger EV on E-Bay in LA (no reserve) Item number: 4607082651
1999 Ford Ranger EV Electric Vehicle NiMh E V NIMH
VERY RARE, LOW MILES, NO RESERVE - Highest Bidder WINS!
Item number: 4607082651
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Around Jan. 21, there was a thread called "is this a good idea?" about
putting batteries AFTER the controller. I think Lee Hart responded on Jan
21. saying that it would be possible. Could you put your 30 cells after the
controller and follow Lee's plan?
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's a URL that might direcly start downloading the DivX AVI for those
that are still having trouble:
http://vp.video.google.com/videodownload?version=0&secureurl=kwAAAJinrahxfI6HG80Juo_nlzwck6U_hwbB61Rcpg-d3biun9hDK5FaBk_2EPv-xVYhHhUW8FcZzuovBWk-nRzkWDzTvX0FbrkLF5Y_knKOttPaUUSwnr6nlgQW6q2jp-mu8LwF3Wa4Qz_u-9P1JWGNzc8u_X_ZHs0DmKD0ZTBv-ItC4V8pOw-x6VMBQCd_DyYWgppknp-Ln8J6ZtU0aSmT4xk&sigh=g9iJhLgN5s3JosOT8yAiB3lp7f0&begin=0&len=1933600&docid=-3974264721033016884
yes it's long! I'm not sure how long it will continue to work though.
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you need a long-distance can a few times a year then either
borrow/swap car with someone in your neighborhood
(hey, maybe you will have a new EV enthusiast after driving your car)
or rent a Prius or so.
Success,
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Sent: 1/29/2006 3:24 PM
Subject: Cost of EV operation
I am now more determined to get back on the road.
This weekend I am proving the part about maintanence costs of owning an
ICE.
In the first 4 years, this is probably not an issue but as a car gets
older....
I am replacing the intake manifold to appease the smog gods. I changed
the motor and the egr didn't mount correctly so I made an adapter. They
will not put the sniffer in the pipe like they did the last 2 smogs and
see that is passes with flying colors (I was told Since the adapter was
made by me not GM, it wasn't tested and would have to be replaced)
I decided to replace the plugs and wires becasue replaceing the plugs on
this car are a real chore.
$84.00
Then I needed gaskets
$75.00
working on a (95) GM product, priceless, (well you couldn't pay me
enough.)
to get the manifold off is a joke, studs in the exhaust are in the
way of removing the valve cover bolts, the valve covers are 1/2 on the
intake and 1/2 on the head. The last cover bolt is behind the
alternator, need to take it off. The last intake bolt is behind the
power steering pump I will need to take it off, but.... the last power
steering pump bolt is behind the motor mount so gotta get a hoist to
support motor and take off the mount.
After all this I am doubtfull it will pass smog, the intake will be all
wrong for the heads. The ECM program will be "off".
It takes engineering to make sure every part requires removal of the
rest. Man are they good at it.
Before I get to off-topic the point of this *rant* is that this is one
of the major secondary reasons I am going electric. The obvious
availability for simplified and clean construction.
As we design adapters, battery racks and conversion kits, we need to
avoid repeating the "big 3's" mistakes. This is a challenge because we
are forced to use 90% of the car they force on us. Anyone who had a
production EV? tell me, did they managed to make them overly
complicated?
So. I want to get even deeper into the EV's The 300zx will do everything
I need around town, I want to start thinking of a cruiser for longer
trips. Take for example the trip to Sonora from fresno. just over 100
miles, but ending in a couple thousand foot climb. I don't think lead is
a good choice for this (do to deminishing return on weight/range). Nimh
is unavail and nicad is environmentally hard to get. At the moment, I
am thinking of just renting a car for those few times a year I go to
sonora and the bay area, but suggestions? I currently have 2 old cars,
and there is a backlog of work to be done on them.
trailer hitch and a good genny?
trailer hitch and a secondary pack?
lipoly,AC,etc?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does pulse and glide help ev's?
http://www.metrompg.com/posts/pulse-and-glide.htm
--- Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Around Jan. 21, there was a thread called "is this a
> good idea?" about
> putting batteries AFTER the controller. I think Lee
> Hart responded on Jan
> 21. saying that it would be possible. Could you put
> your 30 cells after the
> controller and follow Lee's plan?
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know - I wish I had an EV to test. Working on that part. :)
I bet there are folks here who can answer though.
Darin
MetroMPG.com
---
mike golub wrote:
Does pulse and glide help ev's?
http://www.metrompg.com/posts/pulse-and-glide.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While I can't give you more than anecdotal, and
analysis, the answer is, yes.
I'll probably botch the science here, but if you pull
a steady current out of your batteries, the Peukert
effect dictates that with prolonged current, you'll
get less time at that current than if you let the
batteries recover for a second or two as your speed
drops.
I get a kick out of watching the e-meter drop as I
pull some amps, then watch the batteries come back up.
And I can tell you there are those times that I'm
glad I did pulse-coast b/c I doubt I'd have had the
same low kWh of consumption if I'd driven
steady-state.
peace,
--- Darin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't know - I wish I had an EV to test. Working
> on that part. :)
>
> I bet there are folks here who can answer though.
>
> Darin
> MetroMPG.com
>
> ---
>
> mike golub wrote:
>
> > Does pulse and glide help ev's?
> >
> > http://www.metrompg.com/posts/pulse-and-glide.htm
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd pony up with a beater rig and insure it for
$20/yr. as "occasional driver". Allstate let me spin
it every 6 weeks for a day until I knew the EV would
be reliable enough to make it my daily driver.
peace,
--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you need a long-distance can a few times a year
> then either
> borrow/swap car with someone in your neighborhood
> (hey, maybe you will have a new EV enthusiast after
> driving your car)
> or rent a Prius or so.
>
> Success,
> Cor.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Sent: 1/29/2006 3:24 PM
> Subject: Cost of EV operation
>
> I am now more determined to get back on the road.
>
> This weekend I am proving the part about maintanence
> costs of owning an
> ICE.
>
> In the first 4 years, this is probably not an issue
> but as a car gets
> older....
>
> I am replacing the intake manifold to appease the
> smog gods. I changed
> the motor and the egr didn't mount correctly so I
> made an adapter. They
> will not put the sniffer in the pipe like they did
> the last 2 smogs and
> see that is passes with flying colors (I was told
> Since the adapter was
> made by me not GM, it wasn't tested and would have
> to be replaced)
>
> I decided to replace the plugs and wires becasue
> replaceing the plugs on
> this car are a real chore.
> $84.00
> Then I needed gaskets
> $75.00
> working on a (95) GM product, priceless, (well you
> couldn't pay me
> enough.)
>
> to get the manifold off is a joke, studs in the
> exhaust are in the
> way of removing the valve cover bolts, the valve
> covers are 1/2 on the
> intake and 1/2 on the head. The last cover bolt is
> behind the
> alternator, need to take it off. The last intake
> bolt is behind the
> power steering pump I will need to take it off,
> but.... the last power
> steering pump bolt is behind the motor mount so
> gotta get a hoist to
> support motor and take off the mount.
>
> After all this I am doubtfull it will pass smog, the
> intake will be all
> wrong for the heads. The ECM program will be "off".
>
> It takes engineering to make sure every part
> requires removal of the
> rest. Man are they good at it.
>
> Before I get to off-topic the point of this *rant*
> is that this is one
> of the major secondary reasons I am going electric.
> The obvious
> availability for simplified and clean construction.
>
> As we design adapters, battery racks and conversion
> kits, we need to
> avoid repeating the "big 3's" mistakes. This is a
> challenge because we
> are forced to use 90% of the car they force on us.
> Anyone who had a
> production EV? tell me, did they managed to make
> them overly
> complicated?
>
> So. I want to get even deeper into the EV's The
> 300zx will do everything
> I need around town, I want to start thinking of a
> cruiser for longer
> trips. Take for example the trip to Sonora from
> fresno. just over 100
> miles, but ending in a couple thousand foot climb. I
> don't think lead is
> a good choice for this (do to deminishing return on
> weight/range). Nimh
> is unavail and nicad is environmentally hard to get.
> At the moment, I
> am thinking of just renting a car for those few
> times a year I go to
> sonora and the bay area, but suggestions? I
> currently have 2 old cars,
> and there is a backlog of work to be done on them.
>
> trailer hitch and a good genny?
> trailer hitch and a secondary pack?
> lipoly,AC,etc?
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 29 Jan 2006 at 11:10, Meta Bus wrote:
> I just happened to run across this advert (Swift Family Transport,
> specializing in Carolina to NJ auto-transport) on eBay this morning...
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4606889126
It doesn't appear that they are actually offering transportation. This
seems to be just an ad to attract business. Also note their feedback score.
I have had mixed experiences with two auto movers, AAAdvantage and American
Auto Transporters. Both were somewhat careless about keeping to pickup
schedules; OTOH the latter was quite flexible about dropoff and neither one
made a fuss about moving cars that were "different." IIRC, the cost 5-7
years ago was around $700-800 for moving from AZ and CA to OH. I'm sure
it's higher now, but I think that if you're moving an EV the service may be
worth the cost. Of course YMMV.
I've also flat-towed. Pulled a 2500 lb EV across the country with an old
Camaro (!), a few states with a U-Haul moving van, and even across a couple
of states with an '87 VW Golf (no batteries in the EV, so it weighed ~1500
lb). That's probably the way to go if you have more time than money, but I
would be wary of flat-towing with a vehicle in less than very good
condition.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Use these Nimh cells. Make a high voltage pack to
power your PFC-20. Of course, you still have to
figure out how to recharge this Nimh pack correctly.
But, I think this would be easier and potentially much
cheaper than other options. And, you do not have to
worry about adding water to these.
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=228
Ed Ang
AIR Lab Corp.
--- "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My Sparrow currently uses about 195 Wh/mile.
> I have 137 BB600 NiCd cell in it, for a nominal pack
> voltage of 164v,
> and a peak charging voltage of 205v.
> Since it has a DCP Raptor controller, I make sure
> the voltage is
> below 195 before turning the car on. (Generally it
> drops down to
> that within seconds of turning off the charger.)
> My problem is that I need a little more range. With
> the current pack
> and power usage, I have about a 33 mile range to
> 100% DOD. (without
> using the heater or wipers!) My commute is 32 miles
> one way, and I
> will likely need the heater and/or wipers.
> I can add another 30 cells (36V) to the bird, and
> only make it medium
> difficult to add water to the cells. (and a royal
> pain wedging the
> charger in a new location.) This should give me
> another 20% range,
> or about 6 miles more. Enough that I would feel ok
> to drive to work.
>
> The problem is what to do with this extra power.
> Adding them in series to the current pack goes over
> the controller voltage.
> Making the pack 2 parallel strings gives me a 100V
> pack, which is too
> low for the controller.
> The only other thing I've been able to think of
> would be to get a 36V
> to 164v DC-DC that can handle about 1800-2000 Watts.
>
> AARRGGHH!!! So close and yet so far!
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
>
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"After all, it violates one of the main commandments of efficient driving:
conserving momentum."
Conservation of momentum is not the law. Its Conservation of Energy (and
likewise conservation of mass) E=mc^2. I think this demonstration just shows
that maybe the engine is tuned to peak efficiency at 90 km/h however it
still does not address where the energy fighting wind resistance, that
increases as the square of speed, is saved by going 90km'h vice 70 km/h.
i.e. you use more energy going 10 km/h over 70, than you save by going 10
km/h less than 70. If you wanted to take it to the extreme you would run in
all electric mode at a constant speed and then recharge at an efficiency
much greater than any ICE machine on the road just by plugging into the
grid.
The Prius owner strategy is not flawed however. I think wasting energy
idling the engine and or running it at a lower RPM than that of optimal
efficiency is what they are saving. Which may prove that they are terrible
energy wasters at idle or low RPM.
I'd be interested to see the power and torque curves of those ICE machines.
It wouldn't surprise me to find that they were less efficient than some of
the well tuned ICE only engines running around. Back in the early I
remember having a friend that got ~60mpg in her Honda Civic. The reason I
say this is because I'm not sure the Hybrid engines have to meet the strict
emissions control restrictions the regular ICE cars do. Does anyone have
these curves or can comment on them?
Mike,
Anchorage, AK.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of mike golub
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 5:55 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Increasing Range
Does pulse and glide help ev's?
http://www.metrompg.com/posts/pulse-and-glide.htm
--- Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Around Jan. 21, there was a thread called "is this a
> good idea?" about
> putting batteries AFTER the controller. I think Lee
> Hart responded on Jan
> 21. saying that it would be possible. Could you put
> your 30 cells after the
> controller and follow Lee's plan?
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
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Jeff Shanab wrote:
>So. I want to get even deeper into the EV's The 300zx
>will do everything I need around town, I want to start
>thinking of a cruiser for longer trips. Take for
>example the trip to Sonora from fresno. just over 100
>miles, but ending in a couple thousand foot climb. I
>don't think lead is a good choice for this (do to
>deminishing return on weight/range). Nimh
>is unavail and nicad is environmentally hard to get.
>At the moment, I am thinking of just renting a car for
>those few times a year I go to sonora and the bay
>area, but suggestions? I currently have 2 old cars,
>and there is a backlog of work to be done on them.
You're right. Lead acid is an absolutely HORRIBLE choice for
this. But the diminishing returns do go away to an extent
with proper aerodynamic modifications and other drag
reductions.
How much are you willing to pay and are you willing to
settle on a pickup truck with fairly tepid acceleration?
Dick Finley's last project before he passed away was the
"Red Beastie", that famous converted Toyota XtraCab with 40
Trojan T105s, 120V of two strings in parallel. It could
achieve 120 miles range to 100% DoD at 55-60 mph, did 0-60
mph in about 18 seconds, and topped out at 85 mph. The motor
was an Advanced DC 9" and controller a DCP Raptor 1200. I
would estimate this truck cost about $8,000 in parts to
build. Wayland made that famous trip from Portland to
Seattle over the course of a daty, and then back again, for
a total of 440 miles round trip.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/037.html
There are at least three other like projects inspired by
this truck that I'm aware of.
A Chevrolet S10 pickup named "Polar Bear" used the same
battery pack and motor, and a DCP Raptor 600 controller. The
owner claims it can achieve 120 miles range, but this is
probably on the upper end of things with a light foot. Top
speed is 75. This is probably a $7,000 truck.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/185.html
Then there's Tom Stockebrand's Isuzu pickup "Lotsa Watts"
with 24 Trojan T-145 batteries in a single string of 144V,
9" motor, and Cursit controller. He claims 110 miles range
and 75 mph top speed. I'm rather wary of his range claim as
it could be at 45 mph, but it seems reasonable that some
efficiency improvements could allow that range or better at
60 mph. Again, probably a $7,000 truck or so.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/072.html
Finally, there is the Mitsubishi Mighty Max pickup "Electric
Bishi", with 48 Optima Yellowtops, connected in two 192V
strings. The builder estimates over 100 miles range, and
given the 11" Kostov motor and DCP 1200 controller with the
stout AGMs, I'm fairly certain it could handily kill most
cars on the road under the $40,000 price range. This is
probably a $16,000 truck.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/026.html
That is a total of four examples to follow. You don't have
to do a pickup to get long range, but finding a sports car
or compact capable of handling over half its weight in
batteries and doing all the needed aero mods and weight
reductions might be too time consuming and complicated. A
pickup loaded with flooded batteries looks to be the best
way to go for 100+ miles range.
Alan Cocconi's CRX came equipped with 28 Optima D750 lead
acid batteries. Range was over 120 miles per charge at 50
mph, 100 or so at 60 mph, but he has done extensive
aerodynamic mods on this car and used a highly efficient AC
drive. Plus that claim may be a bit exagerrated given that
he was using 25 battery amps for acceleration and cruising
to achieve that range! The aero mods on this car such as
covered rear wheel wells and bellypan were CAD assisted in
design to achieve optimum drag reduction, and most of us do
not have the software available to simulate such things for
our conversions. He got drag coefficient down to about .25!
The battery management system allowed Alan to eek out every
last amp hour from that battery pack as well. The drag
reductions and battery management system combined with
dreadfully low amp draws made all the difference in the
world, as Victor Tikhonov once copied this setup as best as
he could, his CRX having a .29 Cd, using a 107 horsepower
Siemens AC drive, LRR tires, and 28 Optima D750s. Victor got
about 70 miles range on this pack IIRC, not enough to meet
your goals of 100 miles. But that is still good range on
AGMs in a car not made to handle that weight! But Victor did
make a few compromises when his car was in this stage, such
as a passenger seat a Jack Russel Terrier wouldn't even be
able to fit comfortably in...
However, 100 miles range may be the tip of the iceberg for
lead acid conversions, especially when it comes to pickup
trucks that can handle thousands of pounds of batteries but
have a very poor drag coefficient. They leave a lot of room
for improvement.
See Philip Knox's Toyota T100 pickup and its aero mods.
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=870
He installed sideskirts, frontal air dam, grille cover,
underbelly, covered rear wheel wells, aeroshell over truck
bed, all custom made items. Cd of the truck was reduced to
an estimated .25, same as a Honda Insight, and he saw
highway fuel economy jump from 25 mpg to 33 mpg at 70 mph.
This was with no low rolling resistance tires, no 0 degree
camber alignment, no adjusted brakes for zero brake drag, no
low friction wheel bearings, no weight reductions, and no
synthetic transmission oil. Only aero mods. The aeroshell on
the rear made the largest difference.
Now imagine that you were to be given "Red Beastie" to
mutilate to your heart's content. Say you did all those
aerodynamic modifications that Phil Knox did to his T100,
and adjusted alignment, brakes, installed LRR tires,
synthetic transmission oil. Kept the same battery pack,
motor, controller, ect. Left out an expensive fiberglass
weight reduction and kept the stock steel body and such.
How far do you think that would go on a charge? If it can do
120 miles per charge as is, wouldn't aero mods + LRR tires +
other drag reductions allow for perhaps 180-200 miles range
on flooded lead acid batteries due to significantly
decreased power consumption?
No one has ever tried such a heavy vehicle and modified it
so extensively, but it would be interesting to find out. If
others have built 100 mile range trucks, there must be a way
for you to do it as well. If you can duplicate something
like "Red Beastie", you'd already be in good shape for that
trip you take very rarely. Plug in and recharge at your
destination, and then drive back home after it is fully
charged again.
Now imagine not 100 miles on flooded lead acid, but 200
miles. Does anyone think this is possible? I happen to think
it is, but there are no real concrete examples of such a
feat on flooded lead acid batteries in a full size vehicle
like a truck that I am aware of. I don't know of any
electric trucks running with extensive aerodynamic
modifications.
It is something to consider. Why, if someone were to break
the 200 mile range barrier on flooded lead acid batteries at
real highway speeds, we'd certainly have a very paletable
concept for people to duplicate, with no need for advanced
batteries, that gets comparable range to a gas car.
I'm fairly certain if dick Finley were around, he'd have
tried something like this! He was an innovater, and many
told him his truck wouldn't be able to do it. With Wayland's
help, they were proven wrong! Now his setup has been
repeatedly copied and modified with success. I think it is
time to expand upon it in a great way, and shoot for the 200
mile club.
I'm sure there will be the usual supporters and detractors,
but we won't know until somebody tries it. I've run quick
simulations on Uve's Calculator for a Toyota XtraCab set up
like "Red Beastie" but with a .25 drag coefficient, rolling
resistance coefficient of .007, brake/steering drag
coefficient of .002 to reflect low friction wheel bearings,
adjusted brakes for zero brake drag, and 0 camber alignment,
92% transmission efficiency to reflect synthetic
transmission oil installed, and have gotten over 220 miles
range at 60 mph simulated. That doesn't mean over 200 miles
is 100% possible, as Uve's calculator is highly flawed, nor
does this figure count in the amps used for accelerating
such a massive 5,300 pound beast, but it is a very nice
thought.
I think Jeff would be an excellent candidate for such an
experiment as even if it fails, the 100 miles range that is
doable would certainly meet his needs, but it just may not
be the type of vehicle he'd like to use or he may not have
the time or money to build it. That is understandable.
But would someone get into the 200 mile club in an electric
pickup truck on floodies, I think a LOT MORE people would
welcome the concept of EVs. 200 miles range is nearing some
gas cars, and "Red Beastie" already has half the range of a
gas car as it is!
John Wayland made the trip from Portland to Seattle. Maybe
someone needs to make a trip from Sonora to Las Vegas, or
from Sonora to Los Angeles, Sonora to San Francisco, or
perhaps from Sonora to Redding. I happen to think it is
possible with cheap flooded lead acid batteries and not some
$40,000+ hand-built lithium pack(like the TZero was
sporting). It would be a shame if no one made the attempt.
I'd try a trip from say St. Louis to Kansas City or from St.
Louis to Chicago in such a proposed vehicle, but I'm not
rich, being a college student and all. But you damn well bet
I love the idea. All the freedom of a gas car without the
baggage for a price most could afford...
Any takers? Anyone had an idea for a 200 mile range flooded
lead acid pickup truck in mind? Is it simply too daunting a
task to take on? Unrealistic? Anyone care to share their
thoughts and/or ideas on such a proposal and the viability
of it?
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At 09:01 PM 1/29/2006, Edward Ang wrote:
Use these Nimh cells. Make a high voltage pack to
power your PFC-20. Of course, you still have to
figure out how to recharge this Nimh pack correctly.
But, I think this would be easier and potentially much
cheaper than other options. And, you do not have to
worry about adding water to these.
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=228
Lets see, about $800 for a 10AH, 163V pack.
They only talk about 1C discharge rate, and I'd probably want more like 1.5C.
A "fast" charge is only at 0.3C, and takes 4 hours.
It's likely that these would need some kind of per-cell BMS to charge
a large string of them.
Hmm, looking at their 24V packs, the 5AH version
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=379
is $532 for a 5AH, 168V pack. Pre-built in 24V modules saves a lot of work.
The 13AH pack is $1660, not quite as good $/AH.
charging is the main problem with all these.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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