EV Digest 5134
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Increasing Range
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Increasing Range
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: pulse & glide for EVs
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RAV4-EV on Ebay
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Increasing Range
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: How to download? (Re: Futurecrush)
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Vacuum pump
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Jet Electrica Parts manuals
by Matt Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: How to download? (Re: Futurecrush)
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Increasing Range, modifing inverters to make DC to DC
by Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Cost of EV operation (And 200 miles range on flooded lead acid?)
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Cost of EV operation (And 200 miles range on flooded lead acid?)
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: motor/controller: Zilla/WarP max. power
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: motor/contoller
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: pulse & glide; Increasing Range
by Darin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: pulse & glide for EVs
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Safe Rev limit for 8 inch ADC
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) Re: Controller placement question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Safe Rev limit for 8 inch ADC
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RPM/efficiency, was: Safe Rev limit for 8 inch ADC
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: pulse and glide
by "David McWethy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Battery reliability vs. perfomance etc.
by Mark Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: RPM/efficiency, was: Safe Rev limit for 8 inch ADC
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: pulse and glide
by Joel Shellman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: pulse and glide
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Battery reliability vs. perfomance etc.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: pulse and glide
by jerry halstead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: RPM/efficiency, was: Safe Rev limit for 8 inch ADC
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Increasing Range
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:54 PM 1/29/2006, mike golub wrote:
Does pulse and glide help ev's?
http://www.metrompg.com/posts/pulse-and-glide.htm
It might, but it would certainly annoy all the other drivers on the road.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, it doesn't help EVs and it definitely doesn't help IC including the
Prius.
There are two reasons here. One is that IC engines don't function as
efficiently when the speed is being jockied back and forth. This is one
reason why cruise control was created, to make it run a bit more
efficiently.
The second is related to drag. Fuel consumption per mile due to aero
drag (not the only factor) is the square of velocity. So look at the
difference between spending half your time at 50 mph and half at 60 mph
versus all the time at 55 mph. (50^2 + 60^2)/2=3050. 55^2=3025, a bit
lower! Either way the average speed is 55 mph.
OK, there are some exceptions. If you had a non-locking transmission
that has excessive drag for example, or the engine has excessive
compression loading for that speed, it's possible that the vehicle could
benefit from accelerating and then going to neutral to disable those
losses until it needs another such boost. The problematic drag load
would have to be related to RPM, not power levels, because you'll have
to put out a lot of power to make up for the lost time. And of course
it would have to be something that could be switched off putting it in
Neutral. But, frankly, it doesn't sound very plausible, especially in a
well designed vehicle like the Prius.
I think they probably confused the fuel computer's algorithm by the odd
driving style, but I really don't know.
Danny
mike golub wrote:
Does pulse and glide help ev's?
http://www.metrompg.com/posts/pulse-and-glide.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob,
I think this was already corrected about a week or two ago.
Peukert does not say anything about memory, recovery or
any of those effects.
Peukert tells you that when you draw twice the current
from a battery that it will last less than half the time,
because the twice as large current costs you more than
twice the capacity.
That actually is a large factor AGAINST pulse and glide,
because you will use more than twice capacity of your
battery while drawing double current, so even if your
batteries get a little rest between pulses, the effect
of the repeated accelerations is likely to give you
less capacity (and range) than a constant speed.
YMMV.
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: 1/29/2006 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: pulse & glide for EVs
While I can't give you more than anecdotal, and
analysis, the answer is, yes.
I'll probably botch the science here, but if you pull
a steady current out of your batteries, the Peukert
effect dictates that with prolonged current, you'll
get less time at that current than if you let the
batteries recover for a second or two as your speed
drops.
I get a kick out of watching the e-meter drop as I
pull some amps, then watch the batteries come back up.
And I can tell you there are those times that I'm
glad I did pulse-coast b/c I doubt I'd have had the
same low kWh of consumption if I'd driven
steady-state.
peace,
--- Darin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't know - I wish I had an EV to test. Working
> on that part. :)
>
> I bet there are folks here who can answer though.
>
> Darin
> MetroMPG.com
>
> ---
>
> mike golub wrote:
>
> > Does pulse and glide help ev's?
> >
> > http://www.metrompg.com/posts/pulse-and-glide.htm
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hardly see these for sale any more:
item nr 4608586266
price $40,000
Dunno why it doesn't have any pictures in the ad.
Seems it's being sold w dealer help:
"Inspected" vehicle.
Regards,
Cor.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 1/29/06, John G. Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 07:43 AM 1/29/2006, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >How much range could be had if EVERYTHING except drive was on it's own
> >36V pack.
>
> Not much, since the Heater runs off pack voltage, it's the worst
> offender. Everything else only draws like 1-2A from the pack.
It would be a shame to fit a load of extra batteries, and then use up
most of their energy with a heater. Maybe consider a little fuel
powered heater such as a webasto?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 1/29/06, Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Victor asked john whats the secret? I wonder if the answer is "don't use
> windows"
>
> I got it to download with no problem, I just clicked on the link. There
> must be a fallback to work when the OS and browser are not windows. I
> don't have a Mac, yet. But I think John does. If so, might I suggest a
> less "integrated" browser. :-)
Download worked fine for me on Windows 98, with Mozilla browser.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
jmygann wrote:
Is it a Thomas or GAST or ??
http://www.metricmind.com/pump.htm
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you. I Appreciate this.
>Richard Kelly would like to share the following files with you. These files
>are shared from Richard Kelly's Online File Folder.
>Here is the Electrica manual. Good luck. If you have any questions about
>your car, email me. Richard
Matt Milliron [EMAIL PROTECTED]
1981 Jet Electrica, Ford Escort
My daughter named it, "Pikachu".
It's yellow and black, electric and
contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No flame wars please. Just offering ideas. The problem is not windows,
it is web authors writing code that depends on some OS,version, and
installed software. Since they think windows IE is most popular, they
code their fancy flash wrappers for that and it is invariably a wrong
version somewhere. Maybe I should of said the secret is "don't use
flash" I have a 64bit OS and only old flash works.
Win 2k is the most stable of the 95/98/xp crowd, good choice.
When I downloaded, the "download window" said unknown file size and when
finished it said 1K, but it did save the file.
Looking at the code, it tries to download it's flash based player but if
it detects mac (I guess doesn't detect windows) it fallsback to a
direct download, but what a url!
http://vp.video.google.com/videodownload?version=0&secureurl=kwAAAJinrahxfI6HG80Juo_nlzwck6U_hwbB61Rcpg-d3biun9hDK5FaBk_2EPv-xVYhHpi7LwNyz0lOhaThshTuMQyQ4Vbc5lnKCYBg_MWcSRJom-_fB6hGcTk_F0NRxpFAwj-gHbsjqxrz0NKpt3q6gLyGqMMgGIK-1V3OdZC-atqeRXjIJNzBb7dSBo7x2zbLighbHsRIyNs07HIdKvoKYvc&sigh=aBlCftEhMklxYSj2s9o060wPjEE&begin=0&len=1933600&docid=-3974264721033016884";
It contains the SSL authentication I think and is probably to long to
paste into the bar.
I will put it on my server at work and post the link, it is a slow
connection (buisness dsl) but if you can grab it after hours, noone will
notice.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I deleted the previous replies before I thought of
this, so forgive me if I get some numbers wrong.
Someone suggested a DC-DC that will get around 170V
out? Modify a 12VDC in to 120VDC out. I'm most
familiar with the 300W PortaWatts inverter, but most
of the ones I've opened were very similar. My
PortaWatts 600W was almost like two 300W units inside.
At the last Homier traveling cheep tool show, I
carried around a 3kw unit ($59.95!) for about an hour
until I finally came to terms that I only wanted it to
see what it looked like inside; I'd probably never
hook anything to the output.
Anyway... The PortaWatts 300W inverter has a 1N9148 on
the input (if you hooked it up backwards, it would
blow; I bet it's there for denying warranty claims),
some input filtering, and a step up transformer.
There is a UC3525 switching regulator that operates
two fets alternatively pulling down two of the inputs
of the transformer (the center tap is connected to
+12V). The output is rectified and filtered, and it's
regulated for a HV buss of 160VDC. This is adjustable
by changing a few resistor values.
Other chips in this box is a 556 timer and a flip-flop
for generating the 60 Hz, and a quad op-amp for the
shutdown circuitry. There is a thermistor embedded in
the transformer, and it monitors low input voltage and
high output current. The current sense resistor is
low pass filtered to allow for short surges in
current.
The output is not isolated, but it wouldn't take much
to make it isolated. I think the feedback loop
(regulating the high voltage buss) is what keeps it
from being isolated.
It would take some experimentation to make this a
charger. I imagine you would want to add a feedback
loop to make it a current source, up to the max HV
buss voltage.
John, I expect you will find this suggestion
impractical, so I'm mostly posting this in case
someone else finds this interesting. After I've
figured out this inverter (with a 95% head start from
another Lister who I should ask first before
mentioning his name) I've seen it as a cheap source of
parts, and a good head start for some future project.
I don't think I could buy all the parts and fan cooled
heat sink case for the $29.95 price I've bought them
for!
Sorry to hear all your troubles trying to get your
sparrow useful for your commute, I think I would have
given up by now! Myself and other listers have their
fingers crossed for ya. I hope you can get another EV
on the road where they belong.
Steven Ciciora
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A question about the Red Beastie, I am unfamiliar with the
portland-seatle run.
How well did it climb. and what about my "climb at end of trip"?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe we got something here.
ideas
1 A dump pack of exide orbitals at home most the time. It is a 4x8 sled
that is on it's side against one wall most the time and is only lowered
down and slid into the bed during long trips. Now I wouldn't have to
deal with keepeing batteries fresh all the time.
2 a trailer of above in flooded trim, avoid balancers and expensive
chargers but keep the agm's in the truck for easy clean EVing day to
day. still provides me a mid day top-off in a hurry if I want it. And an
awsome whole home UPS.
3. Cruise control. Accelerate to highway speed with dc then hit the
cruise control button which is a contactor from pack to lemco style
motor. the control for this is through the throttle closed switch so you
can hit the accelerator and call upon the series DC if needed.
(maybe this works on sparrow to) how about a 36V etek on a contactor
for cruise.
The climb is what concerns me. Lets say I could go 60 miles. I could
drive from fresno to medesto and find a place there to recharge while I
have a snack. then cover the next 50 miles. But that is a windy road for
20 miles then another 30 miles of windy climbing, Lots of amps. I think
the first 60 is doable but the average speed of 80mph on CA99 is an
issue. Doing 65 on that part would be suicide.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVeryone!
I'd like a motor/controller that will output between 87kW/115hp and
153kW/205hp. What's the max power of a WarP 9/Z1k and WarP 11/Z1k?
Thanks,
Ron
Z1K 156V: 143kW peak, 62.7kW continuous
Z1K 300V: 276kW peak, 120kW continuous
Z1K 348V: 320kW peak, 140kW continuous
The WarP motors (9 and 11 included) should not be run continuously much
above 170V. Therefore, the WarP 9/11 will sustain the Z1K 156V unit's
peak and continuous power. If running with the 300V or 348V Z1K unit,
continuous power to the motor (keeping at or under the 170V limit, which
certain people dare to exceed :) ), will be 350A (Zilla continuous
current) * 170V = 59.5kW. Max power (which was your original question)
will be anywhere from 800 - 950A @ 170V = 136kW to 161.5kW, depending on
the input voltage to the controller.
If anyone sees any errors in the above calculations, please let me
know. I'd also like to hear just how much above 170V anyone is running
a WarP without problems.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A quick way to look at things is 1kw = 1hp ( this gives 24% loss ) now every
volt will = 1 hp with a 1k and 2 hp with a 2k so 115hp with a 1k you would
need 115 motor volts and as the battery voltag sags you need a 200v pack.
The 11 that I now am enjoying puts out 2x the toqure at the same voltage as
the net gain 9 this I assume means 1/2 the rpm at the same voltage. It may
very well be close the the proformance of 2 9's stuck in series .
steve clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Archer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 2:44 PM
Subject: motor/contoller
I'd like a motor/controller that will output between 87kW/115hp and
153kW/205hp. What's the max power of a WarP 9/Z1k and WarP 11/Z1k?
Thanks,
Ron
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, it doesn't help EVs and it definitely doesn't help IC including the Prius.
> ...
I think they probably confused the fuel computer's algorithm by the odd
driving style, but I really don't know.
The Prius computer's mileage calculations were corroborated by a fill-up
at the end of the run. (A full tank of fuel was used during the run.)
Several other vehicles were following the test vehicle, and I assume
distance traveled was also corroborated.
When I first heard about this driving technique and its results, I also
found it hard to believe.
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3375
Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
mike golub wrote:
> Does pulse and glide help EV's?
Yes, it can if done properly. But you have to understand why it works to
do it properly.
ICEs have a strong efficiency peak at some particular horsepower, which
is usually some substantial fraction of full horsepower. For example, a
100hp engine might be most efficient at 50hp. But if you run it at 10hp
or 100hp, it is less than half as efficient (uses twice as much fuel per
horsepower).
The trouble is, the vehicle itself is most efficient at low speeds,
where wind resistance is negligible. So the slower you go, the more
efficient the vehicle gets but the less efficient the ICE is.
If you drive at a constant speed, then the best fuel economy occurs
where the product of the vehicle and engine efficiencies reach a peak.
This typically occurs at 30-40 mph. But the vehicle only needs 5-10hp to
drive at this speed, so its efficiency is less than half its peak
efficiency.
Fuel economy champs found a strategy to beat this problem long ago. The
trick is to always run the engine at its peak efficiency (say 50hp), or
shut it off entirely. But keep the vehicle speed as low as possible, so
aerodynamic losses are negligible. Start at some very low speed like 10
mph. Put it in gear so the car's momentum starts the engine. Run the
engine at 50hp, which makes the car accellerate strongly. When you reach
the speed where wind resistance losses begin (like 40 mph), shut off the
engine, take it out of gear, and coast back down to 10 mph. This is
"pulse & glide". On any car, you can at least *double* your fuel economy
by driving this way.
The same principle applies to an EV, except that the electric motor has
a much flatter efficiency vs. horsepower curve. A motor might peak at
85% efficiency at 20hp, but is still 75% efficient from 1hp to 50hp.
This means there is less to be gained by pulse & glide. So pulse & glide
would give you an extra 10% range, not double the range.
Bob Bath wrote:
> if you pull a steady current out of your batteries, the Peukert
> effect dictates that with prolonged current, you'll get less time
> at that current than if you let the batteries recover for a second
> or two as your speed drops.
Correct, but I think this is confusingly worded. The Peukert effect just
says that the higher the discharge current, the lower the amphour
capacity. Peukert works against pulse & glide. The higher peak currents
when the motor is on reduce the pack capacity. Since (in my above
example), you only have a 10% potential gain, you could throw this all
away in the batteries if your peak current is high enough for Peukert to
cost you more than 10% in amphours.
Mike Willmon wrote:
> I remember having a friend that got ~60mpg in her Honda Civic.
Yes; back when they were a very tiny, light car with few creature
comforts.
> The reason I say this is because I'm not sure the Hybrid engines
> have to meet the strict emissions control restrictions the regular
> ICE cars do. Does anyone have these curves or can comment on them?
I have a Prius. The Prius is specifically built for very *low*
emissions; it is 10x better than the average new car. They sacrificied
fuel economy and horsepower to get low emissions. That's why the Prius
fuel economy is good, but not as outstanding as it could have been.
The Prius automatically does pulse & glide all by itself if you drive at
a constant speed under 40 mph. The engine will start, run at moderately
high horsepower to improve efficiency, and use the excess horsepower to
charge the batteries. Then it shuts off the engine and maintains speed
using energy from the batteries.
However, there is extra energy loss in the charging and discharging of
the batteries, and motor/generator conversion efficiency. So, you can
get even better fuel economy by manually doing the pulse & glide, where
you step down on the accellerator hard enough to force the engine to
start; accellerate up to 40 mph or so, then position the accellerator to
*just the right position* so the car is coasting; not using either the
engine or electric motors. Coast down to 10 mph or so; and repeat. On my
Prius, I can get 55 mpg driving at a constant 40 mph, or 80 mpg with
10-40 mph pulse and glide. I can top 100 mpg if I'm anal-retentive
enough and there's nobody behind me. Obviously, pulse & glide is
impractical if there is anyone behind you!
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know what the safe upper rev limit is for an 8 inch ADC motor?
I have a TD-100 tacho/rev limiter which can be set to 5000, 6000, 7000, 8000 RPM
however I am thinking anything above 6000 could lead to grief.
Regards, Rod Dilkes
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Ellis wrote:
> I'm hoping to build a high power DC drive system modelled after JW's
> WZ. Well, it's fun to dream, right? We'll see how it goes.
Mount your controller where it will stay dry, and get good cooling. If
it is air-cooled, it needs a big heatsink and/or fan. The smaller the
heatsink, the bigger the fan. If it's liquid-cooled, location is less
important as the heat is being moved to the radiator; which then needs
to be somewhere with good airflow.
You want to keep the battery-controller and controller-motor wiring
lengths short. It saves money and weight, and keeps the voltage drop
down. The longer the cables, the bigger the wire sizes have to be to
keep the voltage drops reasonable.
Bundle the wires in pairs when you can. You want the current flowing out
in one, and back in the other. This minimizes noise and radiated
magnetic fields.
Danger; high voltage! Wire it so no one can touch any of the terminals
or cables. No naked battery terminals, exposed motor wiring, contactors,
etc. Put them in boxes, or cover them with metal or plastic covers, etc.
Ideally, build it to be *double* insulated -- this means there are two
independent insulation systems to prevent touching or shorts even if one
of the insulation systems fails. For example, look at a typical power
cord: Each wire has its own insulation; that's one. And the wire has a
separate outside jacket; that's the second. If you wire your EV with
welding cable, it has only one layer of insulation. So, route the cable
inside a conduit or outside sleeve; that's the second layer of
insulation.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would say don't go above 7000 rpms. If you are not over voltaging there is
not much torque above 5000 rpms. For efficiency run the motor between 3800
and 4600 rpms.
Roderick Wilde
EV Parts, Inc.
www.evparts.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 8:00 AM
Subject: Safe Rev limit for 8 inch ADC
Does anyone know what the safe upper rev limit is for an 8 inch ADC motor?
I have a TD-100 tacho/rev limiter which can be set to 5000, 6000, 7000,
8000 RPM
however I am thinking anything above 6000 could lead to grief.
Regards, Rod Dilkes
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
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No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5:18:40 pm 01/30/06 "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I would say don't go above 7000 rpms. If you are not over voltaging
> there is not much torque above 5000 rpms. For efficiency run the
> motor between 3800 and 4600 rpms.
Is this true?
My understanding has been that for efficiency, you want to be running up
toward the redline, where you are running out of torque. You get high
efficiency at the cost of power.
Why would upshifting to a taller gear to maintain a midrange RPM be more
efficient than staying in a lower gear and running 6000RPM or so? It'd
certainly perform better and might be a good idea for other reasons, but it
seems like you'd be drawing more amps.
--chris
>
> Roderick Wilde
> EV Parts, Inc.
> www.evparts.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 8:00 AM
> Subject: Safe Rev limit for 8 inch ADC
>
>
> > Does anyone know what the safe upper rev limit is for an 8 inch
> > ADC motor?
> > I have a TD-100 tacho/rev limiter which can be set to 5000, 6000,
> > 7000, 8000 RPM
> > however I am thinking anything above 6000 could lead to grief.
> >
> > Regards, Rod Dilkes
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.22/239 - Release Date:
> > 1/24/2006
> >
>
>
>
> --
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> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.22/239 - Release Date:
> 1/24/2006
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been practising pulse and glide with my EV, but question whether it
is a good long term plan for ICE cars. Sure, you might get high gas/diesel
miles, but I imagine that starters have a certain number of starts in their
life. When you factor in a change of starter, the economics change. Not to
mention the chance of turning off the the engine and finding as you approach
the corner at the bottom of the hill that your steering is locked. Idling
the engine is an option, but I know it is not healthy for a diesel to idle
at low revs - under 1000 (too cool heads/ poor upper cylinder lube), and
maybe the same for gas.
And what about Prius? I have not heard of starter failures in them. They
must have some very good starters to go on and off constantly, and not fail.
What's the cost of a new Prius starter?
Dave
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So I suppose my question is what batteries are reliable? I see a lot of pros
and cons here and have already decided against the Sams and NAPA batteries. As
each day passes I am getting closer to having to buy my battery pack. I have
room for a dozen reasonably sized batteries in my rear box (which is Rhino
coated).
I need as much range as I can get with obviously longevity being a big factor.
I would have a hard time selling my wife on the idea of a new pack every year!
With the losses I already have with a bit heavier car and an automatic, I am
hoping to make the right decision. I can go 144v for sure and possibly 156 but
don't like the idea of having a battery totally separated from the rest (hear
they fail quickly).
I read a lot of pros and cons here both ways on lead-acid vs AGM, like the
ruggedness I hear about Trojans and USBs, and their much more economical
chargers. Finicky batteries just scare me!
---- David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 28 Jan 2006 at 1:22, STEVE CLUNN wrote:
>
> > good thing we don't getting graded here ...
>
> Ayuh. ;-)
>
> Seriously, my experiences years ago with Exide golf car batteries in my C-
> car put me off them for good.
>
> One friend of mine uses Exides in his Elec-Trak tractor and likes them, but
> unless they've improved a lot since about 1988, I don't think I'd use them
> again in a road EV.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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Chris, This is information I received from the engineer who developed the
motor. I tend to trust his knowledge on this subject. He also, by the way,
drives his EV daily.
Roderick Wilde
EV Parts, Inc.
www.evparts.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 9:39 AM
Subject: RPM/efficiency, was: Safe Rev limit for 8 inch ADC
On 5:18:40 pm 01/30/06 "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I would say don't go above 7000 rpms. If you are not over voltaging
there is not much torque above 5000 rpms. For efficiency run the
motor between 3800 and 4600 rpms.
Is this true?
My understanding has been that for efficiency, you want to be running up
toward the redline, where you are running out of torque. You get high
efficiency at the cost of power.
Why would upshifting to a taller gear to maintain a midrange RPM be more
efficient than staying in a lower gear and running 6000RPM or so? It'd
certainly perform better and might be a good idea for other reasons, but
it
seems like you'd be drawing more amps.
--chris
Roderick Wilde
EV Parts, Inc.
www.evparts.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 8:00 AM
Subject: Safe Rev limit for 8 inch ADC
> Does anyone know what the safe upper rev limit is for an 8 inch
> ADC motor?
> I have a TD-100 tacho/rev limiter which can be set to 5000, 6000,
> 7000, 8000 RPM
> however I am thinking anything above 6000 could lead to grief.
>
> Regards, Rod Dilkes
>
>
>
>
> --
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On 1/30/06, David McWethy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> And what about Prius? I have not heard of starter failures in them. They
> must have some very good starters to go on and off constantly, and not fail.
> What's the cost of a new Prius starter?
In the description I saw it says that the momentum of the car is used
to start the engine. So a starter isn't used at all. Basically it's
the same as starting the car "on compression" as we have done forever
with our old beater stick shifts :)
So there is no wear and tear on the starter at all.
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David McWethy wrote:
> I have been practising pulse and glide with my EV, but question
> whether it is a good long term plan for ICE cars. Sure, you might
> get high gas/diesel miles, but I imagine that starters have a
> certain number of starts in their life. When you factor in a
> change of starter, the economics change.
Yes, it's all in the details.
The starter in most cars is built for a very short life expectancy; it
only runs a few hours in the entire life of a car, just a second or two
at a time. It's actually hard to build an electric motor this bad -- but
the auto companies have figured out ways to do it! :-(
But if you have a manual transmission (or one of the few cars whose
automatic transmssion has a rear pump), you can start the engine by just
putting in in gear. No wear and tear on the starter, and the
transmission can handle the starting torque with ease.
Shutting off an ICE for a minute or so does no harm. It doesn't have
time for anything to cool off enough to matter. Lots of vehicles have
done this for years with no effect on engine reliability (Harley
Davidson golf carts and industrial trucks are two examples that come to
mind). We don't have idle-stop in normal cars because of the crappy
starters, and all the acessories we want to keep working when the car
isn't moving (air conditioning, etc.).
> Not to mention the chance of turning off the the engine and finding
> as you approach the corner at the bottom of the hill that your
> steering is locked.
The strange lockout mechanisms built into some keyswitches are a
problem; but they can be defeated if frequent start/stop is desired.
> And what about Prius? I have not heard of starter failures in them.
> What's the cost of a new Prius starter?
The Prius doesn't have a starter. Or an alternator, for that matter.
Thus they can't fail!
Instead, the Prius has two big electric motors that do the job. These
are big 3-phase AC motors. One connects to the wheels via the
differential, exactly like our electric cars. The other connects to the
gasoline engine via the "power split device", basically a gearbox.
Either can be used as a motor or generator, to turn the engine or take
power from the engine (i.e. its "starter" and "alternator") or the
wheels (i.e. make the car go or do regenerative braking). These two
motors are always "running" whenever the car is moving, and basically
built to last the life of the vehicle, which in a Toyota is hundreds of
thousands of miles.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Mark Ward wrote:
> So I suppose my question is what batteries are reliable?
Batteries are reliable -- it's the owners who aren't! They do all sorts
of nasty, stupid things. The main cause of death is battricide
(batteries murdered by the owner).
The better you treat your batteries, the longer they last. Chargers that
do a poor job, charging too much or too little, excessive discharge
current, excessively deep discharges, and lack of maintenance (low
water, loose terminals, etc.) are the main murder weapons.
Some types of batteries are more forgiving than others. Industrial fork
lift batteries are very rugged, on the assumption that Joe Sixpack will
actively try to murder the battery so he can get out of work early. Golf
cart battery makers assume they are being maintained by some high school
dropout.
You pay for this extra reliability. These batteries are heavier for the
power they deliver. They are fine for long life at low speeds, but not
for high speed or high performance EVs.
> I need as much range as I can get with obviously longevity being a
> big factor. I would have a hard time selling my wife on the idea
> of a new pack every year!
Well, let's start by defining what your "mission" is.
- How far do you need to drive on a charge?
- How fast do you need to drive?
- How much are you willing to spend?
- Are you after low purchase price, or low cost per mile?
(pick one; they are mutually exclusive!)
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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On Jan 30, 2006, at 12:40 PM, David McWethy wrote:
And what about Prius? I have not heard of starter failures in
them. They must have some very good starters to go on and off
constantly, and not fail. What's the cost of a new Prius starter?
Hi Dave,
I believe the "starter" in the Prius is the main electric drive
motor. So, yeah, beefy starter! ":^)
-Jerry
http://www.evconvert.com/
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Roderick Wilde wrote:
>> I would say don't go above 7000 rpms. If you are not over voltaging
>> there is not much torque above 5000 rpms. For efficiency run the
>> motor between 3800 and 4600 rpms.
Chris Robison wrote:
> Is this true?
Yes, I think Rod has it right.
> My understanding has been that for efficiency, you want to be running
> up toward the redline, where you are running out of torque. You get
> high efficiency at the cost of power.
Advanced DC motor have a built-in fan. That fan wastes a lot of power on
unnecessary cooling at high rpm, and thus hurts efficiency.
> Why would upshifting to a taller gear to maintain a midrange RPM be
> more efficient than staying in a lower gear and running 6000RPM or so?
6000 rpm is above the point of peak efficiency for the ADC motors. Peak
efficiency is more like 3000-4000 rpm. That's still higher than it would
be for an ICE, which is why we say not to run an EV conversion in its
highest gear (which would produce 2000-3000 rpm), but one or two gears
down.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 09:01 PM 1/29/2006, Edward Ang wrote:
> >Use these Nimh cells. Make a high voltage pack to
> >power your PFC-20. Of course, you still have to
> >figure out how to recharge this Nimh pack
> correctly.
> >But, I think this would be easier and potentially
> much
> >cheaper than other options. And, you do not have
> to
> >worry about adding water to these.
> >
>
>http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=228
>
> Lets see, about $800 for a 10AH, 163V pack.
> They only talk about 1C discharge rate, and I'd
> probably want more like 1.5C.
If you use them to power your PFC-20 charger, its
voltage does not have to match your pack voltage. You
could even put together a 350V module if you like.
I have been testing these 10Ah cells. I have also
been talking with their technical people. It is safe
to use them up to 30A (or 3C) continuous, 50A (5C)
peak. You just have to design the pack carefully to
allow for air flow. A cooling fan also helps,
especially when you try to equalize them.
And, the 9Ah version could take 6C continuous and 10C
peak.
> A "fast" charge is only at 0.3C, and takes 4 hours.
> It's likely that these would need some kind of
> per-cell BMS to charge
> a large string of them.
Where did you read this? These could be safely
recharged at 1C rate with proper control. And, you do
not need per-cell BMS if you know what you are doing.
They are designed to take a certain amount of
overcharge without any problem.
>
> Hmm, looking at their 24V packs, the 5AH version
>
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=379
> is $532 for a 5AH, 168V pack. Pre-built in 24V
> modules saves a lot of work.
> The 13AH pack is $1660, not quite as good $/AH.
>
> charging is the main problem with all these.
Yes, but it is not a big problem to solve. It is
better than adding an inverter or a DC-DC and you also
have to worry about charging for the extra batteries.
Also, space is extremely limited on the Sparrow.
Anyhow, we can talk about the details off-line if you
want.
Ed Ang
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
>
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