EV Digest 5152
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Votes - how are we doin' ?
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Hybrid Efficiency vs Barbeque Sauce
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Hybrid efficiency, was: Increasing Range
by Zack Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Hybrid efficiency, was: Increasing Range
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Regen
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) 1993 Soleq EVCourt For Sale
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Hybrid efficiency, was: Increasing Range
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: 24 volt charger
by "Jody Dewey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Hybrid efficiency, was: Increasing Range
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Armature Air Gap effects
by "BFRListmail" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) "Plug-In Partners" coalition
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Raptor 600 tach
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Raptor 600 tach
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Current Eliminator Dragster News
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Will Li be a reality in 2006?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Will Li be a reality in 2006?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Will Li be a reality in 2006?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Ultimate end for the old ICE
by John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Charging profile, was: Re: Regen settings, was ...
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: windy night in Kingston
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Ultimate end for the old ICE
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Another Hot Lead. John Wayland eat you heart out.
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Will Li be a reality in 2006?
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Riding the White Zombie and other EVents (long)
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I just noticed that Killacycle made it to the top ten
but does
not have Electric listed on that page.
Perhaps you can have that changed without taking it
offline for a day?
Keep up the good work.
--- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I just noticed Bill Dube's Killa cycle "click 4
> times
> now"
>
http://www.dragtimes.com/Dragster-Motorcycle-Timeslip-7621.html
>
> >
>
http://www.dragtimes.com/Mazda-RX-7-Timeslip-7519.html
> >
>
http://www.dragtimes.com/Datsun-1200-Timeslip-7484.html
> >
>
http://www.dragtimes.com/Nissan-240SX-Timeslip-7382.html
> >
> > Congrats to all,
> >
> > Victor
> >
> > --
> > '91 ACRX - something different
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>>Uh John....how's a car that can really deliver 90+ mph a gimmick? My
>>Insight gets 65-68 mpg in town and 75-80 mpg on the freeway when I'm not
>>even trying to get super mileage and am just 'driving' the car. It gets
>>even better when I do 'try' to squeeze the most out of it, usually above
>>90 mpg at 57-62 mph! On 400 mile round trips between Portland and
>>Seattle, I routinely get mid 80 mpg returns.
>
> Yeah, a gimmick. One of the oddest cars made in recent years with
> ugliness second only to maybe an Aztec. the fact is, there was about
> as much interest in the marketplace for that car as there is for BEVs.
That's probably a true statement....given the fact that the dealers in
california alone had orders for THOUSANDS of BEV's that the manufacturers
refused to aknowledge, and the fact that the dealers (at least in AZ)
can't keep a hybrid on the lot since they are all sold months before they
arrive.
Yeah, I'd say the interest in the marketplace is about the same for
hybrids as it is for BEVs.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
I haven't been on this list for a very long time, and I prefer to just lurk
and not expose my own ignorance about technical details of EVs too much. But
I have a question so here I go anyway!
In the time I've been on this list I've seen Nick post this kind of argument
before, i.e. where he'll get seemingly solid numbers from seemingly solid
sources, and then draw a simple conclusion that seems to answer or refute
the argument of the person he replied to.
But I never see a reply from anyone, not the person Nick responded to or
anyone else, confirming or refuting Nick's analysis.
The argument he gives below is a good example. To me, just starting to get
into all this stuff for the first time, and without having my own store of
knowledge to draw on, it looks completely iron-clad. So naturally my tendency
would be to use his conclusions in casual conversations with friends, family,
and coworkers, that "the average US car is emitting twice the legal limit
of HC today." And present his URLs to back it up.
Would I be right to do this? Was anyone with real knowledge (i.e. not me)
also convinced? Are the lack of replies to Nick a sign that people in general
agree or disagree with him?
Be well,
Zack
On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 02:35:14PM -0800, Nick Austin wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 12:00:31PM -0500, Neon John wrote:
> > On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 03:16:42 -0600, Christopher Robison
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >I think perhaps the hybrids should not be exempt from emission testing,
> > >but I think you'd find they do put out significantly less than cars
> > >unassisted by an electric motor.
> >
> > No. Modern engine management enables either engine to run under most
> > conditions with zero emissions. Total emissions are so low now that
> > all the efforts at reducing them are concentrated on the first minute
> > of operation, before the cats and oxygen sensors light off.
>
> This is why we really need ILEVs (Inherently Low Emission Vehicles).
> Trying to tame the emissions of a combustion process will always be
> an uphill battle that you can not win.
>
> See my analysis of this issue below:
>
> The issue most people seem to miss is that the engine running behind
> all these advanced anti pollution controls is just as dirty today as it
> was 10 years ago. That's to say, incredibly dirty. When the emissions
> systems on these new cars starts to fail, you will have the exact same
> problem.
>
> http://www.epa.gov/otaq/speeches/speech4.gif
> http://www.epa.gov/otaq/speeches/mto-9508.htm
>
> "The second major challenge that we are facing is the problem of in-use
> deterioration. While all new vehicles offered for sale must be designed
> and produced to meet emissions standards, actual in-use performance is not
> as good. Too often, broken or malfunctioning parts or simply lack of
> proper maintenance or repair results in vehicle emissions significantly
> above the standards."
>
> http://tinyurl.com/c56xg
> >From that URL:
>
> Median Age of Automobiles and Trucks in Operation in the United States
> Year Autos LT All Trucks
> 2003 8.6 6.6 6.7
> 2004 8.9 6.4 6.6
>
> >From http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/rtecs/chapter3.html:
> An average vehicle, therefore, traveled farther in 1994 than in 1988:
> 11,400 miles per year compared with 10,200 miles per year (Figure 3.2).
>
> So, now we can figure out how much the average US car pollutes:
> 11400 Miles per year * 8.9 year old car == 101460 Miles on avg car in US.
>
> Now that we know how many miles the average car has gone today, we can
> see how bad its pollution is today. If you look at the gif I posted above,
> you can see that the average US car is emitting twice the legal limit of
> HC today.
>
> Thanks!
>
--
Zack Brown
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--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, February 5, 2006 12:30 pm, Zack Brown said:
> The argument he gives below is a good example. To me, just starting to get
> into all this stuff for the first time, and without having my own store of
> knowledge to draw on, it looks completely iron-clad. So naturally my
> tendency
> would be to use his conclusions in casual conversations with friends,
> family,
> and coworkers, that "the average US car is emitting twice the legal limit
> of HC today." And present his URLs to back it up.
>
> Would I be right to do this? Was anyone with real knowledge (i.e. not me)
> also convinced? Are the lack of replies to Nick a sign that people in
> general
> agree or disagree with him?
I can't claim to speak for everyone or know other people's motivations,
but my guess is that the information provided in these links is sufficient
in making the case that the only reasonable course of rebuttal would be to
refute the veracity of the data itself, and the reliability of the sources
mentioned (the EPA, Bureau of Transportation Statistics, and Energy
Information Administration). And there's little point in arguing this and
little likelihood for it not to erupt into the sort of political bickering
that is neither appropriate for the list nor fruitful to engage in.
You either trust the numbers and therefore the point being made (that
*maybe* modern engines produce almost nothing but CO2 and water when
they're new, but not for long, and that additional miles driven per capita
counteract decreasing emissions), or you think the idiots in the gub'mint
are full of it. I can't see that argument here significantly enlightening
anyone on either side.
--chris
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--- Begin Message ---
Seth Rothenberg wrote:
> I recall reading different things in different
> places about Regenerative braking.
> I see the commercial EV's use AC motors and regen,
> but I have seen other EV's mentioned with DC
> motors and regen. Does it depend how it is wound?
Every motor is automatically a generator. But whether you can *use* it
as a generator depends on your controller.
Some motor types are easier to use as generators than others. The DC
series motor and AC induction motor are the hardest; they make the most
work for your controller. They do not generate anything when spun unless
the controller "excites" them with field power.
PM motors (AC or DC) are easier, as they naturally generate just by
spinning them. But the voltage they generate is proportional to RPM;
thus the controller needs to change the voltage from whatever the motor
delivers at its present RPM to whatever the battery pack wants.
Wound field motors (sepex or shunt DC, or wound-rotor AC) are the
easiest to use as generators. Their field winding provides a very simple
way to adjust their generated voltage to match your battery pack
voltage.
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FOR SALE
1993 Ford Escort Station Wagon
Professionally converted by Soleq of Chicago IL
7,400 original miles
Professionally converted by Soleq Corporation of Chicago, IL, through a grant
from the US Department of Energy for a group of Kansas Electrical Companies.
This particular vehicle was one of two ultimately owned by Kansas City Power
and Light (using my memory, KCPL was owned by Westar Energy at the time). When
the two companies split this one went to KCPL and the other one went to Westar
Energy. This vehicle sat in KCPLs fleet lot largely unused for a number of
years until a group of local EV enthusiasts (myself included) persuaded KCPL to
auction it as surplus equipment. We did not get it and it sold to a
construction company in Liberty MO where it was sometimes used as a yard
vehicle and mostly used to occupy a parking space. Sometime in late 2005 we
believe a vandal threw a rock through the rear windshield. The company sold
it to an employee who wanted to make it a daily commuter. Unfortunately, his
situation changed and he needed to part with it quickly. I pur!
chased it from him to save it from a fate worse than certain death.
I ended up with this vehicle in part because of my involvement with it when it
was owned by KCPL and because I also owned and drove the other EVCourt
mentioned above from 1999 to 2004. In that time span that car was parked
unused in my garage for almost 2 years and was one of up to three EVs I
operated as my only means of transportation. I put approximately 7,000 miles
on that car in this time span. I found it to be a good vehicle but my EV needs
changed and I found that I no longer needed so many cars.
I took possession on this car on Friday January 20 and put a fresh charge on it
that night. On Saturday January 21 I noted each batterys charge while on
float charge, unplugged the charger and allowed the batteries to cool down 24
hours. On Sunday Jan 22 I again noted each batterys charge and then drove it
three miles, left a 25 amp load on the pack to check battery voltage again. I
noted four weaker than expected batteries. The two weakest were also warm to
the touch. I decided to replace those two batteries and put the car back on
the charger. On Monday I again noted each batterys voltage while on a float
charge and drove the car 6 miles round trip to get the car inspected and titled
into my name. Once back home I immediately put a 25 amp load on the pack and
noted each batterys voltage. All original batteries and the two replacement
batteries showed no problem. The two original weaker batteries left in the
pack that were not replaced were slightly weaker than!
the other batteries but were stronger than their previous evaluation.
On Saturday February 4 I drove the car ~6 miles to replace the rear windshield.
Once back home I put the pack on a 25 amp load and measured the voltage of the
two previously mentioned weak batteries and the two replacement batteries. I
failed to note the results but recall that all four measured in an acceptable
range. On Sunday February 5 I drove the car ~12 miles to park it in my parents
garage (I need the space in my garage for my wife).
I am now prepared to sell the vehicle. The only thing stopping me from doing
so is that I am waiting for the title to come back from the State of Kansas,
which usually takes two weeks to return them. Once I have that in hand, the
car can be sold. Until then I can list it for sale and discuss terms with
interested parties.
Pictures available upon request. Please feel free to contact me off list.
Jim Donovan
Westwood, KS
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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On Sat, Feb 04, 2006 at 01:42:31PM -0800, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 06:52:58PM -0800, Jeff Shanab wrote:
>
> >> I would not stay in a locked garage with a car that reads zero
> >> emmisions, it is still using up the oxygen and emmiting CO2, we just
> >> don't track those as emmisions.
>
> >Better make sure you check the emissions from your real world car before you
> >begin your test. As the link I posted earlier shows, more then half the
> >pollution generated by ICEs is caused by the degradation of emissions control
> >systems.
>
> I said "a car that READS zero"
Ok, I misunderstood you, I thought you were talking about a car that measures
zero from the factory.
A car that CURRENTLY reads zero would have been most clear.
Many people do not think about degradation when discussing these issues, and it
looked like you might have fallen into the same trap.
The only ILEVs which have been made are Electric, Fuel Cell, and Natural Gas.
On that note, Does anybody know why emissions systems on Natural Gas cars
do not degrade like those on Gasoline powered cars? Seems strange.
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I totally didnt even think this through. I was online searching for a 24
volt transformer to make my own charger for my new nimH pack and I got to
thinking - does any other tool use nimH batteries? It turns out there are
MANY 18V nimH chargers available for other types of tools. I found one for
$30 that can fast charge my battery in an hour. I think that will be a
better route to go than designing a new one from scratch.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of M Bianchi
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 10:30 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 24 volt charger
Jody Dewey wrote:
> I recently had a black and decker battery pack for my 18V drill
> reloaded with NimH batteries instead of NiCad batteries.
> My charger won't work with it now. I know I can use the NiCad power
> source to charge the NimH pack but eventually it will kill the pack.
Lee Hart answered:
> The charging characteristics of nimh and nicad are so similar that you
> can use the nicad charger. The problem is that the nicad charger
> probably doesn't shut off when the battery is full -- it just keeps
> right on charging anyway. Nicads can tolerate this with a modest loss of
> life. Nimh will be ruined.
IT IS MUCH WORSE THAN THAT. The wrong end-of-charge profile and/or
inadequate
cooling has lead to disaster.
http://www.autoauditorium.com/ATdS_Report_1997.html#Report50
http://www.autoauditorium.com/ATdS_Report_1997.html#Report68
Improperly charging NiMH cells can cause them to go into "thermal runaway"
which will cause outgasing and overheating and that can lead to fire. There
is
a lot of things people need to LEARN ABOUT the advanced chemistry batteries
BEFORE they attempt to design chargers and charging profiles. The evidence
is
that is not a project for the uneducated amateur! (LiIon also has some
unfortunate failure modes.)
Lee has said many times that batteries don't die, they are murdered. All
too
true. And sometimes they also take the rest of the project with them.
--
Mike Bianchi
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--- Begin Message ---
Nick Austin wrote:
On that note, Does anybody know why emissions systems on Natural Gas cars
do not degrade like those on Gasoline powered cars? Seems strange.
One might hazard to guess that typical U.S. domestic natural gas has
less impurities then typical U.S. domestic gasoline... and/or that those
impurities are less damaging to the various emissions control parts
found in modern cars. Or maybe it's just a result of the different
byproducts of combustion found with either fuel. Does natural gas
produce as much soot as gasoline in a ICE?
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello all,
I've been trying to learn more about the effects of armature air gap on DC
motors. Most of the resources that I've found talk about the torque/speed
relationship. Specifically in a Permanent Magnet motor, the smaller the
armature air gap, the greater the torque, at the cost of lost speed. Likewise
the larger the armature air gap, the greater the speed, at the cost of lost
torque. Seems like a simple trade off. If you want speed, large gap. If you
want torque, small gap.
One source I found says that air gap should be as small as possible, only large
enough so that the armature doesn't rub. It talks about the high reluctance of
air in the gap. It takes more energy to push magnetic flux through the air
than steel. So is that a universal rule? Would most motors benefit from a
small air gap? Are air gaps typically on the high side do to mass production,
etc? It's just like building up an ICE engine. Tighter tolerances for high
performance. Amazing how many similarities you can draw to ICE powertrains. I
do think I heard somewhere that too tight an air gap will cause air drag? But
aside from that, tighter better? Or is just a place for experimentation?
Either way, I'll be trying it once the weather breaks and I get back in the
garage.
Darin Gilbert
BadFishRacing
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--- Begin Message ---
Just thought I'd share with the list this email I recently sent to someone
in the industry with whom I correspond and have done business.
Charles Whalen
------------------------------------------
About a week and half ago, I watched the online video
(http://www.connectlive.com/events/austinenergy/) of Austin Energy's
"Plug-In Partners" 90-minute press conference in Washington, DC and thought
it was excellent, especially Jim Woolsey's and Frank Gaffney's speeches. I
like Austin Energy General Manager Roger Duncan's idea about various fleet
operators (electric ultilities, local/state/federal govt. agencies, etc.)
placing what he called indicative "soft orders" with the automakers for
PHEVs as a strong expression of their interest and commitment to purchase
such vehicles if the automakers would only produce them. I believe he said
that he's put together 600 "soft orders" for PHEVs or something like that;
not sure if that was all from Austin Energy or an amalgamation of various
different companies and agencies. I think he's on the right track there.
But I think this approach is too timid and passive and won't necessarily get
the automakers off their behinds and spur them into action to produce PHEVs.
If Duncan is really serious (which he seems to be), then I would suggest
that he put his money where his company's and city's mouths are and get off
his own behind and actually do something, be more aggressive, and take the
initiative by contracting EDrive to convert a dozen Priuses for them, for
starters, as SCAQMD has done with its order of 4 Prius PHEV conversions from
EDrive. My own feeling is that it won't be until we have a lot more SCAQMDs
and SCEs out there, with their high-visibility demonstrated level of
commitment, initiative, and hands-on, take-charge, hard-driving ambition,
that we will actually see the automakers, most notably Toyota, basically
forced and pushed into producing PHEVs by the embarrassment of falling
behind the technological curve in the marketplace from upstarts like EDrive
who are doing the job *for* Toyota in its abdication, obfuscation,
procrastination, and foot-dragging refusal to give the market what it's
demanding.
Relying on these indicative "soft orders" and then the hope and prayer that
Toyota and the other big automakers will follow through just isn't going to
get the job done, IMHO, at least not in any sort of timely fashion, as amply
demonstrated by the pathetic track record of the last 10 years. These guys,
Duncan and his colleagues in the coalition of 30 cities and utilities that
he has put together, need to grab the bull by horns and make it happen.
They're going to have to force the issue. They should get out in front and
lead the way by creating the market themselves, by hook or by crook, using
whatever unconventional means might be required to get the job done, for
which EDrive is there and only too happy to oblige and fill that void and
screaming demand. Can you imagine what would happen if Austin Energy and
the other 29 corporate and governmental entities in the "Plug-In Partners"
coalition *each* placed an order for a dozen Prius or Escape PHEV
conversions with EDrive? My God, you'd have Steve Jurvetson, Rob Hambrecht,
Steven Bing, Vinod Khosla, Marty Lagod, and every other big-name, big-money,
EV-savvy, VC/mega-angel beating down Pete and Greg's door to fund a major
expansion of their venture. Toyota and the other big autos would then
certainly wake up and start to take notice. Toyota in particular would
begin to feel some serious competitive heat, if not necessarily from EDrive,
then at least from the knowledge that the Koreans and the hungry, ambitious
Chinese (e.g. the likes of Geely, Chery, etc.) are also keenly observing,
taking notice, and making their own plans to fill a gaping void and howling
vacuum of demonstrated demand in the market.
If you have any influence with Roger Duncan, which I assume you probably do,
then I would try to nudge him in this direction with a suggestion that he
and his 29 "Plug-In" coalition partners get serious about this and start
placing some *real* "hard orders" with a highly respected company (with a
reputation for having some of the best electric drive & control systems
engineers in the country) that is already doing this business and actually
delivering PHEVs to customers. Let's see Roger Duncan and his partners put
their money where their mouths are!
Charles
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--- Begin Message ---
Neil,
The sensor needs to 'see' alternating light/dark spaces. On my 9" ADC,
I painted the tail shaft black and then then painted two white areas,
each 1/4 of the shaft. I then adjusted the sensor per the DCP manual.
Worked great.
Ralph
Neil Gover writes:
>
> Greetings
> I am still having trouble getting a tach working on my Raptor 600. I got a
> better tach from the speed shop. No change.
> In the manual "4.2 Tachometer Sensor Wiring" paragraph tells me to disconnect
> the motor from the controller and turn the motor by hand to see the white
> LED on the sensor light up. No light. I varied the gap from 1/8 to 1/2
> inches. Still no light. Yes, it is plugged into the controller.
> Any suggestions?
> Once this is corrected I will deal with the sluggish performance.
>
> Neil, soon to be grinning more
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer
> 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more.
> Signup at www.doteasy.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why not call the lab at 541.476.3565?
--- Neil Gover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Greetings
> I am still having trouble getting a tach working on
> my Raptor 600. I got a better tach from the speed
> shop. No change.
> In the manual "4.2 Tachometer Sensor Wiring"
> paragraph tells me to disconnect the motor from the
> controller and turn the motor by hand to see the
> white LED on the sensor light up. No light. I
> varied the gap from 1/8 to 1/2 inches. Still no
> light. Yes, it is plugged into the controller.
> Any suggestions?
> Once this is corrected I will deal with the sluggish
> performance.
>
> Neil, soon to be grinning more
>
>
>
>
>
___________________________________________________________
> $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB
> Transfer
> 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and
> much more.
> Signup at www.doteasy.com
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 2/5/06 7:02:34 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: Current Eliminator Dragster News
Date: 2/5/06 7:02:34 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (STEVE CLUNN)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
An idea I've been thinking about , what is you had a 2 motor set up and
some kind of clutch set up between to two . motor 1 would go to the rear ,
normal set up motor 2 would hook to the tail shaft of 1 through a clutch .
motor 2 would also has a heavy fly wheel on it . You wind up motor 2 with
the fly wheel before start and it holds 6000rpm , take off with motor 1 and
1/2 way down the 1/4 mile start letting out the clutch giving that stored
energy for the last part , along with putting power to 2 also. Maybe have
the flywheel right in line with the motor 1 and motor 2 would be geared to
flywheel so as to get more flywheel rpm . My run used only 3 ah of power ,
and this made me think that one of the problems may be getting the power out
of the batteries fast enough .
Steve Clunn . >>
This is not in the KISS book so I probaly wont try it besides I am a 1 motor
racer(11 in.128 pounder) Dennis Berube
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Is there a battery on the verge of being available? Will Valence's
products be on the market this year?
Has anyone done any math on AC Propulsion's method of using existing
off the shelf, smaller sized batteries? Is it economical? How
difficult would it be to make a BMS to handle thousands of AA
batteries for instance vs's ~29, 12 volt lithium's?
Just how difficult is it to make a BMS that can work with an size Li
battery and any amount of them? Does someone on this list have the
ability to make it? How much $$$ do you need for motivation?
http://www.powerstream.com/LLLmanage.htm
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--- Begin Message ---
Valence has been available for quite a while - am I missing something?
Of the shelf smaller batteries are just not cost competitive with something
like Thundersky or Kokam. Especially when the entire system (BMS and
charger) are considered. There is at least one company working with them to
produce a pack: http://www.modenergy.com
Victor and Lee both have BMSs that can be used for Lithium. TSky and Kokam
also have units. ACP will also sell you a unit. Valence have them built
in.
...it just costs lots of money.
If you choose to use the power stream unit, you need to consider the amount
of current your EV will draw.
Planning on upgrading your pack?
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: February 5, 2006 5:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Will Li be a reality in 2006?
Is there a battery on the verge of being available? Will Valence's products
be on the market this year?
Has anyone done any math on AC Propulsion's method of using existing off the
shelf, smaller sized batteries? Is it economical? How difficult would it
be to make a BMS to handle thousands of AA batteries for instance vs's ~29,
12 volt lithium's?
Just how difficult is it to make a BMS that can work with an size Li battery
and any amount of them? Does someone on this list have the ability to make
it? How much $$$ do you need for motivation?
http://www.powerstream.com/LLLmanage.htm
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Don Cameron wrote:
> Valence has been available for quite a while - am I missing something?
Where are they for sale at?
> ...it just costs lots of money.
Will Li ever be cost competitive with Lead?
> Planning on upgrading your pack?
Just considering Li over Pb because of the weight of a high voltage
pack and range issues.
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Before pulling the engine out of my truck (86 Nissan V6) I drove the
truck to what was at the time a local nissan parts place (Nissans Only
Wreckers). The guy there told me that a boat anchor is all it was any
good for.
I then proceeded to tear the truck apart for the conversion when a a
job opportunity on across the country presented itself. After accepting
this new job, I had to get rid of the engine relatively quickly and
was able to get someone to come take it from my garage for free by
listing it on craigs list.
If I had more time I may have been able to get someone to pay me for
it, but as it was I was happy to not have to pay someone to take it
away. The guy that took it raced another Nissan model that shared the
engine so I suppose it was put to good use.
John
On Saturday, February 4, 2006, at 11:25 PM, Mike & Paula Willmon wrote:
What do most of you do with your old IC engines taken out for
conversions?
The obvious one for me is to try to sell it to defray some of the cost
of
the conversion.
Has anyone had luck doing this? Will salvage yards pay for a running
engine?
The Mitsubishi 2.6L 4cyl has 121K miles and still runs strong with no
leaks.
However the recycler in me wants to turn it into another project.
Convert it to natural gas and use if for an emergency generator for the
house?
Tie a long chain to it and use it as an anchor for a mooring buoy?
<winmail.dat>
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On Feb 4, 2006, at 1:12 PM, Christopher Zach wrote:
I'd say follow my charge profile; full blast to 350 volts, then hold
at 350 volts till current is down to 3amps, then go to 375 volts at a
nice slow 2a rate. My pack is 2 years old now, and running fine. My
previous two were both dried out.
After having some trouble in the beginning I see you have created a
working charge profile. Could you give a little more detail about your
pack and charging? I'm guessing at a 300 or so volt pack. Are you using
regulators? Do you have any separate equalizing routine?
I am getting close to replacing my dying Optimas. They have suffered 6
years of abuse including overcharge, undercharge, and a few rounds of
over-discharge. Range is down to about 12 miles from its peak of 20
miles (they have proven quite tough.) Rudman regulators are a problem.
I have only limited "sure" dry space and the Todd already it taking
about 1/3 of it (Lee's simple reg is a possibility.) I have another
device to add in the safe dry area and give my better feedback on the
pack. Now if I could get some time off (of course, not having time off
is getting me the money!) Anyway, charging is once again getting my
interest.
Paul "neon" G.
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He has a windup flashlight but it will not keep his freezer frozen or his
house toasty. He uses an inverter and genset for that.
Offshoot of this thread... I replaced my reefer a few years ago. The old one
had separate air in the fridge and freezer compartments sharing a common
fixed speed compressor. The new one shares air between them and has a
variable speed compressor. The old freezer would keep frozen for 28 hours if
the door was not opened. The new one stayed frozen for only 6 hours. My
guess is the shared air keep the fridge cold and warmed up the freezer to
keep the fridge cold.
I had to run my genset after only 6 hours this year instead of not needed to
do it for 28 hours a few years ago.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 11:03 PM
Subject: Re: windy night in Kingston
> Now's when those windup and shake flashlights come in handy. No batteries
> needed. Freeplay Radio wouldn't be a bad thing to have either. LR.......
>
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When converting my Buggy the nearly stock 1600cc VW Beetle engine with
unknown miles (complete with the $150 used duel Kadron carb setup I
found) was sold for $600.
I started in 1992 with a $400 wrecked Buggy, built it into the former
ICE version of itself for a total cost of $3000, then sold the engine
for $600. The EV conversion (with mostly used parts) cost about 150% of
what I had into it at that point.
Paul
On Feb 5, 2006, at 3:50 PM, John wrote:
Before pulling the engine out of my truck (86 Nissan V6) I drove the
truck to what was at the time a local nissan parts place (Nissans Only
Wreckers). The guy there told me that a boat anchor is all it was any
good for.
I then proceeded to tear the truck apart for the conversion when a a
job opportunity on across the country presented itself. After
accepting this new job, I had to get rid of the engine relatively
quickly and was able to get someone to come take it from my garage for
free by listing it on craigs list.
If I had more time I may have been able to get someone to pay me for
it, but as it was I was happy to not have to pay someone to take it
away. The guy that took it raced another Nissan model that shared the
engine so I suppose it was put to good use.
John
On Saturday, February 4, 2006, at 11:25 PM, Mike & Paula Willmon
wrote:
What do most of you do with your old IC engines taken out for
conversions?
The obvious one for me is to try to sell it to defray some of the
cost of
the conversion.
Has anyone had luck doing this? Will salvage yards pay for a running
engine?
The Mitsubishi 2.6L 4cyl has 121K miles and still runs strong with no
leaks.
However the recycler in me wants to turn it into another project.
Convert it to natural gas and use if for an emergency generator for
the
house?
Tie a long chain to it and use it as an anchor for a mooring buoy?
<winmail.dat>
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Lawrence,
One big drawback of getting a rare car, is the vitual absence
of any spare parts. May be better to start with a more common
car if you don't want to shell out serious money every time
you need a part....
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 7:31 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List;
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; SFEVA
Subject: Another Hot Lead. John Wayland eat you heart out.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Arcane_autos/ I lurk this list and have found
many neat deals. Arcane autos has the best scroungers around. They love
old cars and find many. This 1964 Sport Truck by Datsun is one. It if goes
for a thousand bucks it's a steal. LR......
From: "facelnut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Another Hot Lead
Datsun "Sports Truck" available on CL SF. These were built only 2
years in very small numbers. Real cute pickup bed is integral with
cab. I spoke with the seller and he sounds very nice and straight up.
I think something around 1k would buy this.
http://www.craigslist.org/sfc/car/130721578.html
I've got plenty to keep me busy or I would grab the Datsun and the
Super Snipe too!
Nice to see the sun Dale, ain't it?
Cheers, Alan
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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On Sun, Feb 05, 2006 at 07:47:04PM -0600, Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Is there a battery on the verge of being available? Will Valence's
> products be on the market this year?
Here is an example of a Solectria Force powered by Valence Liion batteries.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/602.html
The following is an interesting analysis of the pros and cons of using
valence Liions in an EV today.
http://www.geocities.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/EV/valence.txt
I think they will sell them too you today if you email them.
One thing that excites me is this:
www.fireflyenergy.com/
If they end up selling a battery that can meat there claims, this would be
a boon to both EVs and long EV range Plug in Hybrids.
<..snip..>
> Just how difficult is it to make a BMS that can work with an size Li
> battery and any amount of them? Does someone on this list have the
> ability to make it? How much $$$ do you need for motivation?
Victor has a BMS that he uses today with Liion batteries.
http://www.metricmind.com/bms.htm
I think that Lee Hart has one as well, but I'm not sure if its been used on
a Liion pack or not.
This guy has a Lipoly powered EV, presumably with a custom BMS?
http://www.proev.com/P1Spec.htm
Thanks!
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Hey all
Well Im back on my side of the mountain after a long and EVentful day from
the Wayland breakfast. Some may have heard that there were areas in the NW
that really got pounded by winds. Winter storm warnings were posted for all
the mountain passes Saturday night, so I had been eyeballing the road
conditions nervously. As it turned out Sunday was clear and the passes were
not all that bad, but were just littered with tree debris, so they got some
wind last night.
I showed up at Waylands a few minutes early just as Father Time was arriving.
After a short chat as others arrived, John and Tim started pulling out Blue
Meanie, and White Zombie as EVeryone loaded up. John must have saw me
eyeballing WZs empty passenger seat and asked me if I wanted to ride with Tim
in WZ (yea twist my arm, lmao). Well Johns wife Cheryl told Tim to keep the
lid closed and the demon in the box 8@ (
Tim and I although familiar with the area have always just followed the
leader to the restaurant but today we found ourselves leading John. We took a
right (the long way) and Wayland went straight. Well this left Tim without
prying eyes and well boys will be boys. Cruising at around 35 mph Tim pumps
the GO pedal and woke the Zombie up from a long winters sleep. Ive ridden in
Blue Meanie and Ive ridden in some fast cars before, but theres just nothing
like the Zombie liking your back and sticking it to its seat 8^ o Well, we
arrived in quick fashion and settled into a great breakfast and fun
conversation. I got to sit next to Father Time and Richard Rau with Jay
Donnaway next to Richard. This was great because I got to talk with the guys
about their motors.
FT had a finished bearing hub for the DE plate for the 13 twin to Waylands
interpoled beast for his racer bug. FT has an idea for me to try that will
make it a tad different than the Allis Chalmers that John has, should be fun,
well see how it pans out, hehe. I had hoped to bring a finished motor for
Richard Rau as it was his Birthday today, but I couldnt make it happen 8^ (
We were able to discuss face to face some of his motor details. Jay had to
leave early so we didnt get much time to chat (until later). There had to be
12 + EVers there it seemed and although I knew a lot of the faces Ive yet to
really get to know some of them yet, so names escape me (not to mention my
brain is fried).
Although breakfast was 2 hours long it was over in a flash. We exited to
find this really cool 1917-21 Melbourne light electric car parked out front. I
took a couple pics Ill post. After the excitement simmered the crowd faded
back to Johns place. Tim and I found our selves leaving last. I was ready to
jump in when I noticed an elderly gentleman heading our way which for him was
Im sure top speed. He had seen the cars and was trying to make it over but
they had all glided away before he could make it. Tim popped the hood and we
took a few minutes to share. Turns out hes a retired engineer, he asked me if
all the guys were engineers? I told him not as many as youd think, just smart
backyard ampheads. You just couldnt miss the EV smile that cracked as we
parted ways.
Tim and I find our selves back in the Zombie and a nice relaxing ride home 8
O
I had a meeting with Mark Freidberg to look at his Electra van motor. Being
there was a thread here about that motor type he wrote me about taking a look.
Being I was now 15 miles away it worked out nice. I bipped over and popped his
cover band. His motor was running fine, but I did notice his brushes are in
need of replacement. They are the H-100 grade so this leads me to believe the
carbon set in the other van motor was an improper grade and at least added to
the brush wear problem. Mark took me out for EV ride number 2 and with the day
passing quickly I had to jam. I had told John Id stop back by before heading
out, so I shot back to Johns house.
Well I dont know what Tim and John had talked about while I was gone but
when I arrived they were juicing up WZ and asked me if I wanted another ride.
Well my arm feels pulled out of the socket from all the twisting all day 8^ )
Wayland tells me they got the batteries topped now! What the hell does that
mean?
All goodie too-shoes better stop reading
Tim pulls out and sets up for a right turn onto Glisan Ave. I see a couple
of cars coming but they arent to close and Tim strokes the Zombie and we find
our selves almost 180. Tim cranks the wheel as he tries to control the beast
he just awoke. There has to be a 100 foot of S marks laid. When Tim had the
Zombie reigned straight he punched it good as the Zombie pinned me into the
seat once again. Tims not crazy so we putted passed the police station,
trying to look casual (WITH ALL THE RACE DECALS)
Mostly we BSed as we just
cruised on electric wings, it was so awesome. Jumping onto Stark we headed
back home. My phone rang just as Tim spurred Zombie again (try answering your
phone while being pinned to your seat, lmao). It was Jay asking me where I
was? I told him I was getting the crap scared out of me in WZ, LMAO! Being I
was still in town he wanted to run some parts out to me before I left. Tim and
I made it back to
Waylands where he was freaking we were gone so long. He asked us what we
were doing when we did the corner deal? I bucked my teeth and chirped rapidly.
He said what the hell is that? I told him we were squirreling! LMAO. Ten
minutes later my cheeks still hurt from smiling and well I must have looked
like the Joker on Batman 8^ )
As with all the Events Ive been able to attend it flew by all to quick. I
was looking at a long drive home and said my goodbyes. Before I left we
discovered I had a rock in my tire and it was leaking (I told John to stop
picking at it, hehehe). I opted to change the tire and Wayland whipped out the
air tools and well, better there then on the road. The trip home was long and
uneventful, but I was kept company with my thoughts of riding the White Zombie.
I want to say that it was all done as safely as could be done and Tim showed
great skill. Besides the dog, the two pedestrians, the tri-met train, and the
semi, it was a ride without incident! For those not into the race thing
Get
Tim to give ya the Plasma tour sometime!
Just had to share what a great day it was for those who couldnt attend.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
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