EV Digest 5155
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Motor mounting: Welding, structural questions
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Battery Manu. looking for applications: was Re: Will Li be a reality
in 2006?
by Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) A disturbing trend for EV makers and batteries
by Tom Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Aircraft Gen. Motor WAS Re: E-Volks Geo Metro Conversion
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Aircraft Gen. Motor WAS Re: E-Volks Geo Metro Conversion
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: A disturbing trend for EV makers and batteries
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Motor mounting: Welding, structural questions
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Porsche 911 at BBB Contact Info?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Is the list down?
by Darin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Heatsink sought for Curtis 1221c
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Motor mounting: Welding, structural questions
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Motor mounting: Welding, structural questions
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Is the list down?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Motor mounting: Welding, structural questions
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Heatsink sought for Curtis 1221c
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Motor mounting: Welding, structural questions
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Problems with the EVDL; (was Re: Is the list down?)
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Is the list down?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Is the list down?
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
For a while I've been trying to think of ways to mount my motor under the
cabin of my truck. The motor is pictured here:
http://ohmbre.org/gallery/v/ConversionProject/Parts/motor
http://ohmbre.org/gallery/v/ConversionProject/Parts/motor/IMG_0109.jpg.html
I don't really like the feet that Netgain provided, and I don't think
they'll be useful. I'm pretty sure I'll end up removing them. The
alternative mounting idea that keeps coming to mind is to change the shape
of both endcaps, to form large "ears" on the sides. This would give me
four mounting points that I could attach to the frame rails running
parallel to the sides of the motor. I might even triangulate them with
support rods along the sides of the motor to resist bending stresses.
Initially from looking at the pictures (and generally being ignorant) I
had thought that these were made from aluminum plate -- simple solution, I
just cut new plates in the shape that I want, drill/lathe the proper holes
for the bearings and bolts, and then assemble the motor with the new end
plates.
Well, obviously to anyone with any sense, they're not plates; they're
machined castings. So, it looks like I've got a couple options. First
would be to add an additional plate in the shape that I want on top of the
existing one, and get longer bolts to attach them. This would add a lot of
weight, and I'd like to avoid as much of that as I can.
So, my question. Can anyone come up with any reasons I shouldn't make
ears from aluminum plate of the same thickness as the exposed aluminum at
the edges of the motor ends (11/16" thick) and then TIG weld them in
place? Is this a worthwhile plan?
There are 8 bolts per end, and they're thinner than I'd hoped; 3/8" at the
threads. Of course I'd swap them for grade 8, but even so I'm thinking it
might be a good idea to drill and tap for a few more.
I'm not thrilled with the idea of removing the caps from the motor to do
the work, but I'm assuming that this is not something I want to attempt
with them still attached to the motor. Comments?
My welder is a 185A inverter-based unit:
http://www.thermadyne.com/newsNewProductDetail.asp?div=tai&id=220
I know that aluminum welding requires a lot more power than steel; is this
something I should be attempting with a welder of this size? Is pure argon
an acceptable gas to use? Any suggestions on flow rate, filler rod
alloy/diameter, tungsten composition, size and shaping, etc? (I currently
use 1% lanthanated, 2.4mm.) I have already read quite a bit on the topic
and I plan to study this stuff thoroughly before even beginning to
practice, but any thoughts from experienced welders here would be
appreciated.
So far I've had some success at simple DC welding on steel with this
machine, but I haven't tried AC welding yet. I need to get some experience
using it on aluminum of the same thickness before doing it on the motor
caps, but I think I can pick it up given some time and practice on test
material.
Ultimately, I need a solution that will hold a nearly 400lb motor to the
underside of the truck's cabin, withstanding 1100+ ft-lbs of torque,
torsional shock loads, suspension-dampened vertical impacts, and
longitudinal loads from acceleration and braking. If anyone's interested,
I'll try to produce a drawing of the shape I have in mind. If I'm headed
in the wrong direction, I'd appreciate a better idea!
--chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I filled out the form a while back. Here's the response I got:
------
Thank you for you interest in A123Systems' exciting new battery technology.
We are currently reviewing the many potential applications and
opportunities for our high power lithium ion technology.
Unfortunately, we are not currently in a position to support all of
the individual inquiries we have received.
A123 Systems' first product, which will be available through
distribution in late 2006, will be a cylindrical 26650 form factor
cell (26 mm diameter, 65 mm length).
Its basic specification is 3.3 V nominal (3.6V OCV) & 2.3 Ah capacity.
We will put you in our data base and will get you more information as
we are in a position to support your request.
---------
On 2/6/06, jmygann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Everyone keeps wanting the newest battery to try ... well here is
> your chance .. $30 million for testing
>
>
> http://www.a123systems.com/html/home.html
>
> http://www.a123systems.com/html/evaluation.html
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 06, 2006 at 01:03:34PM -0800, Chris Jones wrote:
> > > >Will Valence's products be on the market this year?
> > >
> > > Last month I ordered 12 U24s for my conversion. They
> > > are scheduled to arrive in May. My plans are posted
> > > at
> > > http://www.geocities.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/EV/1.htm.
> >
> > Awesome!!
> >
> > Do you have any concerns about Valence's viability?
> >
> > How much did they cost? Did they come with the BMS?
> >
> > > Wish me luck!
> >
> > Good luck!
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi
I have noticed a disturbing trend for EV makers. It seems that the
product is provided and the customer often has to go and purchase the
batteries seperatly... what this does is take away the leverage that
such a manufacturer would have with the battery maker. If they
provided the batteries with the kit/car ect they would be able to
demand bulk discounts that would really help bring the costs down.
I would sure like to see someone negotiate a bulk discount for say
Lion batteries that would bring the price within reason with an
amount that needs to be ordered to do it! If the price were right, I
bet alot of us would get on the band wagon. Is there something in the
way of doing it this way?
Tom
__________________________________________________________
Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
>
> At 03:58 PM 2/2/2006, Andre' Blanchard wrote:
> >At 01:29 PM 2/2/2006, you wrote:
> >I have a good start on a CAD design for a 16 pole 4 position manual
> >switch that I should be able to build for a few hundred dollars in
> >copper and fiberglass board, and a few weekends in front of the
> >milling machine.
>
> Sounds like it would be cheaper and easier to just buy a low voltage
> controller.
Maybe. The old switch controllers were a slate panel, with brass bolts
for contacts. Each bolt had a silver dime-size piece of metal brazed to
it. These contacts were bridged by a sliding contact that rotated over
them with a big arm. Pretty crude, simple, and robust!
I would avoid using fiberglass, as it burns!
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andre' Blanchard wrote:
> Question is how hard is it to electrically reverse an aircraft
> generator? Nice for plowing snow.
Trivially easy.
As they come, one end of the field is tied to the armature (common).
This works because they only rotate in one direction in their normal
usage. But this connection is easy to remove; The field wire has a ring
terminal that connects with a screw. Remove the screw, and bring out
that ring terminal to a separate wire.
Reversing the field (with a small DPDT toggle switch) then reverses the
motor.
The brush position is optimized for forward rotation. But these aircraft
generators all have interpoles and pole face windings, and so are very
tolerant of being reversed.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Two things.
First, volume. I doubt any current EV company deals in nearly the
production quantities that would make this practical. Executing a bulk
order would result in batteries sitting in a warehouse, waiting to be sold
along with a car. And as they sit, they age. Batteries should be
installed and used fresh.
Second is shipping. Given that it's extremely likely that the company that
produces the car you're interested in is nowhere close to you, and that
batteries account for a significant percentage of the weight of the car,
why would you want to pay to ship all of that extra weight? And if they're
flooded, you've got the additional hazmat issue. Far easier and cheaper
to buy the batteries locally, after you've received the car and finished
any necessary assembly. Having to ship them a long distance would likely
eat up any marginal savings from the initial bulk order.
Until we (again someday) have electric vehicles sold from local car lots
like any other car, I would vastly prefer to buy the batteries separately.
--chris
On Tue, February 7, 2006 1:33 pm, Tom Watson said:
> Hi
> I have noticed a disturbing trend for EV makers. It seems that the
> product is provided and the customer often has to go and purchase the
> batteries seperatly... what this does is take away the leverage that
> such a manufacturer would have with the battery maker. If they
> provided the batteries with the kit/car ect they would be able to
> demand bulk discounts that would really help bring the costs down.
>
> I would sure like to see someone negotiate a bulk discount for say
> Lion batteries that would bring the price within reason with an
> amount that needs to be ordered to do it! If the price were right, I
> bet alot of us would get on the band wagon. Is there something in the
> way of doing it this way?
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nice truck project and nice welder! 400 lbs, now that's a motor!
Miller and Lincoln have little charts for current, rod thickness, gas
to use, etc. for different kinds of metals and thicknesses of metals.
You should be able to get one at a welding supply or off their web
sites. I have personally found I need to derate from the recommended
current (probably because I'm a slow beginner welder, and not a fast
experienced production welder) and seem to need a higher gas flow
rate (again, probably because I'm a beginner).
I'm not sure an inverter would have this problem as much, but at high
currents many welders have a low duty cycle where you can only use
them a fraction of the time, and then have to let them cool.
I'd be nervous about welding directly to the motor end, if you messed
that up it would be an expensive mistake! Don't forget the heating of
welding can warp a part. Also, if you ever needed to swap motors
you'd have to remake a custom mount.
--- Chris Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The
> alternative mounting idea that keeps coming to mind is to change
> the shape
> of both endcaps, to form large "ears" on the sides. This would give
> me
> four mounting points that I could attach to the frame rails running
> parallel to the sides of the motor. I might even triangulate them
> with
> support rods along the sides of the motor to resist bending
> stresses.
>
> Initially from looking at the pictures (and generally being
> ignorant) I
> had thought that these were made from aluminum plate -- simple
> solution, I
> just cut new plates in the shape that I want, drill/lathe the
> proper holes
> for the bearings and bolts, and then assemble the motor with the
> new end
> plates.
>
> Well, obviously to anyone with any sense, they're not plates;
> they're
> machined castings. So, it looks like I've got a couple options.
> First
> would be to add an additional plate in the shape that I want on top
> of the
> existing one, and get longer bolts to attach them. This would add a
> lot of
> weight, and I'd like to avoid as much of that as I can.
>
> So, my question. Can anyone come up with any reasons I shouldn't
> make
> ears from aluminum plate of the same thickness as the exposed
> aluminum at
> the edges of the motor ends (11/16" thick) and then TIG weld them
> in
> place? Is this a worthwhile plan?
>
> There are 8 bolts per end, and they're thinner than I'd hoped; 3/8"
> at the
> threads. Of course I'd swap them for grade 8, but even so I'm
> thinking it
> might be a good idea to drill and tap for a few more.
>
> I'm not thrilled with the idea of removing the caps from the motor
> to do
> the work, but I'm assuming that this is not something I want to
> attempt
> with them still attached to the motor. Comments?
>
> My welder is a 185A inverter-based unit:
>
> http://www.thermadyne.com/newsNewProductDetail.asp?div=tai&id=220
>
> I know that aluminum welding requires a lot more power than steel;
> is this
> something I should be attempting with a welder of this size? Is
> pure argon
> an acceptable gas to use? Any suggestions on flow rate, filler rod
> alloy/diameter, tungsten composition, size and shaping, etc? (I
> currently
> use 1% lanthanated, 2.4mm.) I have already read quite a bit on the
> topic
> and I plan to study this stuff thoroughly before even beginning to
> practice, but any thoughts from experienced welders here would be
> appreciated.
>
> So far I've had some success at simple DC welding on steel with
> this
> machine, but I haven't tried AC welding yet. I need to get some
> experience
> using it on aluminum of the same thickness before doing it on the
> motor
> caps, but I think I can pick it up given some time and practice on
> test
> material.
>
> Ultimately, I need a solution that will hold a nearly 400lb motor
> to the
> underside of the truck's cabin, withstanding 1100+ ft-lbs of
> torque,
> torsional shock loads, suspension-dampened vertical impacts, and
> longitudinal loads from acceleration and braking. If anyone's
> interested,
> I'll try to produce a drawing of the shape I have in mind. If I'm
> headed
> in the wrong direction, I'd appreciate a better idea!
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd like to be able to email and maybe get some pictures of the
Porsche 911 that was at BBB, since I'm converting a similar car. Can
anyone please give me contact info or a web page for that car? Many
thanks.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While on the topic of list issues....
Can anyone direct me to a list administrator?
There are 4 addresses listed in the "welcome message" I received last
month upon joining. I've tried contacting each of them and have
received bounces from two and no replies from the other two.
thanks,
Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> First keep that new 1221C in the box until the old one does the
> "Popcorn song". Get every cent out of the old unit, that's just
> free running. When it goes, you have the replacement.
Except that it is worth more as a used *working* controller than as a
used *dead* controller!
> Overheating, does not really hurt these controllers.. Heat alone
> is not the grim Reaper. They are programmed to protect themselves,
> and they do so.
Rich, you know better. Heat *is* the poison that will kill it! It's the
old Arrhenius equation -- roughly, every 10 deg.C rise in temperture
cuts the life of your electronic components in HALF!
The electrolytic capacitors in a Curtis controller are only rated for
2000 hours at temperature. When they fail, the now-uncontrolled voltage
spikes will kill the MOSFETs.
The MOSFETs themselves age over time. Their breakdown voltage drops,
their on-resistance increases, etc. The higher the temperature, the
faster they age. That 1-2-4-8 temperature multiplier can shorten the
MOSFET life from its 100,000 hours at 25 deg.C (won't fails in your
lifetime) to 390 hours at 105 deg.C (won't even last a year)!
All the rest of the parts are subject to this same type of degradation
due to temperature.
> Any heat sink will do...
Well, sort of. Anything is better than nothing. The basic Curtis case
doesn't have enough surface area for effective cooling, even with a huge
airflow over it.
But the whole point is to cool the case enough so it is not too hot to
touch (aroound 120 deg.F for a metal surface). It's all about surface
area and airflow. Adding a slab of aluminum to the base won't do
anything by itself, because it has a negligible effect on the surface
area.
But press-fitting 1" aluminum fins into the slots in the case adds very
little metal, but a huge increase in surface area. Since this is a loto
of work, most people buy a commercial finned heatsink, and attach it to
the case with a heat-conductive material.
Note that the Curtis design happens to route most of the heat to the
mounting base surface. If the temperature is still too high, then
increase the airflow with a fan. With "enough" air you can cool anything
-- but the amount of air gets ridiculous if you don't have enough
surface area.
If there's no room for enough fins, and you can't get enough airflow, go
to liquid cooling. For a Curtis, I'd get two 1/8" aluminum plates, and
space them about 1/8" apart with washers at the mounting hole locations.
Glue these two sheets and the washers together with silicone rubber.
Also put a bead all the way around the outside edges. This creates a
3/8" thick "cold plate", sealed at the edges and at each mounting hole.
Drill holes in one of the sheets at opposite corners, and attach hose
fittings. Use a small pump to circuilate water/antifreeze through the
cold plate, and a remotely-located radiator (an old car heater core will
do).
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, February 7, 2006 2:08 pm, David Dymaxion said:
> Nice truck project and nice welder! 400 lbs, now that's a motor!
Yeah, boy-howdy. :o) Two average people can barely lift (a couple inches,
briefly). Took two plus an engine crane to set it on the stand it's on
now.
> Miller and Lincoln have little charts for current, rod thickness, gas
> to use, etc. for different kinds of metals and thicknesses of metals.
> You should be able to get one at a welding supply or off their web
> sites. I have personally found I need to derate from the recommended
> current (probably because I'm a slow beginner welder, and not a fast
> experienced production welder) and seem to need a higher gas flow
> rate (again, probably because I'm a beginner).
I've read these manufacturer suggestions, but between them and suggestions
from vendors, on forums, etc, I find that there's a lot of disagreement.
Some swear by zirconated electrodes, some say it's only good for
transformer-based sinewave AC, some say avoid altogether and use ceriated
or lanthanated. In some cases I see butt joints with beveled edges to
provide a bead groove, some diagrams show square edges and no gap
whatsoever. Some like helium, though most sources indicate pure argon is
fine. Some say preheat with acetylene first, some say don't because it
drives carbon into the aluminum. But in assimilating all the varying
advice, it seems like generally more input is better.
You bring up a valid point about current derating and such. I was unsure
if that would be effective -- if cutting current and going slower would
result in a good weld, or if a certain level of current is necessary. If I
can do that to slow down, it would certainly be helpful.
> I'm not sure an inverter would have this problem as much, but at high
> currents many welders have a low duty cycle where you can only use
> them a fraction of the time, and then have to let them cool.
This unit will definitely need to be cycled at high current. At max output
(185A), duty cycle drops all the way to 30%. 40% at 160. I have no
problems with that though; I can use the opportunity to stop and think.
:o) And though it's a light-duty device, I'm surprised they got the same
power (and more sophisticated controls) into the size of a small carry-on
bag, that for the same price can be bought in a transformer-based unit
from Miller that's about a third the size of a washing machine and
provides a lifting loop for a crane.
> I'd be nervous about welding directly to the motor end, if you messed
> that up it would be an expensive mistake! Don't forget the heating of
> welding can warp a part. Also, if you ever needed to swap motors
> you'd have to remake a custom mount.
This is probably the biggest reason NOT to do what I'm proposing. I would
feel pretty silly calling up George and asking for a new end cap because
I'd ruined one.
But if I practice with some 11/16" aluminum plate and end up feeling
confident about it, avoiding warpage and cracking will be the most
prominent thing on my mind. I'm thinking that I should cut at least the
edge of the ear that I'm adding to be beveled to an edge in the center, to
create a groove on either side of the weld. Then I can weld in multiple
passes, alternating sides, to fill the grooves.
--chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Chris,
Do what they do for bolting in a drag racing engine. They mount a heavy 1/2 to
3/4 inch aluminum plate to the front and back of the engine. You could do this
by bolting these plates to the front of the motor. If you have a adapter plate
done that bolts to a transmission or so, which mind is 5/8 thick, have it stick
out farther flat at the bottom for aluminum angles to bolt on.
If you already have the motor adapter plate built, there is enough surface at
the bottom for a support plate to bolt to.
I bolted large 3/8 inch x 4 inch x 4 inch aluminum angles to the front and rear
plates and bolted them down on to a angle that was welded to the frame. I used
engine donuts between the aluminum angle and steel angle. I used this method
on both the engine and electric motor when my EV was a series hybred at the
time.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Robison<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 12:05 PM
Subject: Motor mounting: Welding, structural questions
For a while I've been trying to think of ways to mount my motor under the
cabin of my truck. The motor is pictured here:
http://ohmbre.org/gallery/v/ConversionProject/Parts/motor<http://ohmbre.org/gallery/v/ConversionProject/Parts/motor>
http://ohmbre.org/gallery/v/ConversionProject/Parts/motor/IMG_0109.jpg.html<http://ohmbre.org/gallery/v/ConversionProject/Parts/motor/IMG_0109.jpghtml>
I don't really like the feet that Netgain provided, and I don't think
they'll be useful. I'm pretty sure I'll end up removing them. The
alternative mounting idea that keeps coming to mind is to change the shape
of both endcaps, to form large "ears" on the sides. This would give me
four mounting points that I could attach to the frame rails running
parallel to the sides of the motor. I might even triangulate them with
support rods along the sides of the motor to resist bending stresses.
Initially from looking at the pictures (and generally being ignorant) I
had thought that these were made from aluminum plate -- simple solution, I
just cut new plates in the shape that I want, drill/lathe the proper holes
for the bearings and bolts, and then assemble the motor with the new end
plates.
Well, obviously to anyone with any sense, they're not plates; they're
machined castings. So, it looks like I've got a couple options. First
would be to add an additional plate in the shape that I want on top of the
existing one, and get longer bolts to attach them. This would add a lot of
weight, and I'd like to avoid as much of that as I can.
So, my question. Can anyone come up with any reasons I shouldn't make
ears from aluminum plate of the same thickness as the exposed aluminum at
the edges of the motor ends (11/16" thick) and then TIG weld them in
place? Is this a worthwhile plan?
There are 8 bolts per end, and they're thinner than I'd hoped; 3/8" at the
threads. Of course I'd swap them for grade 8, but even so I'm thinking it
might be a good idea to drill and tap for a few more.
I'm not thrilled with the idea of removing the caps from the motor to do
the work, but I'm assuming that this is not something I want to attempt
with them still attached to the motor. Comments?
My welder is a 185A inverter-based unit:
http://www.thermadyne.com/newsNewProductDetail.asp?div=tai&id=220<http://www.thermadyne.com/newsNewProductDetail.asp?div=tai&id=220>
I know that aluminum welding requires a lot more power than steel; is this
something I should be attempting with a welder of this size? Is pure argon
an acceptable gas to use? Any suggestions on flow rate, filler rod
alloy/diameter, tungsten composition, size and shaping, etc? (I currently
use 1% lanthanated, 2.4mm.) I have already read quite a bit on the topic
and I plan to study this stuff thoroughly before even beginning to
practice, but any thoughts from experienced welders here would be
appreciated.
So far I've had some success at simple DC welding on steel with this
machine, but I haven't tried AC welding yet. I need to get some experience
using it on aluminum of the same thickness before doing it on the motor
caps, but I think I can pick it up given some time and practice on test
material.
Ultimately, I need a solution that will hold a nearly 400lb motor to the
underside of the truck's cabin, withstanding 1100+ ft-lbs of torque,
torsional shock loads, suspension-dampened vertical impacts, and
longitudinal loads from acceleration and braking. If anyone's interested,
I'll try to produce a drawing of the shape I have in mind. If I'm headed
in the wrong direction, I'd appreciate a better idea!
--chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Darin,
go to:
http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html<http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html>
There is a list of the EV List administrators.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Darin<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> ; Darin
Cosgrove<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: Is the list down?
While on the topic of list issues....
Can anyone direct me to a list administrator?
There are 4 addresses listed in the "welcome message" I received last
month upon joining. I've tried contacting each of them and have
received bounces from two and no replies from the other two.
thanks,
Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, February 7, 2006 3:29 pm, Roland Wiench said:
> Hello Chris,
>
> Do what they do for bolting in a drag racing engine. They mount a heavy
> 1/2 to 3/4 inch aluminum plate to the front and back of the engine. You
> could do this by bolting these plates to the front of the motor. If you
> have a adapter plate done that bolts to a transmission or so, which mind
> is 5/8 thick, have it stick out farther flat at the bottom for aluminum
> angles to bolt on.
I'd thought about doing this, adding additional plates of aluminum to
either end of the motor, and shaping those new plates to provide the ears
or mounting flanges. The problem is that this would add a lot of weight
where I might be able to avoid it -- there's enough mass of aluminum in
the caps already that I think they would be sufficiently strong to support
the motor, if I could attach to them well enough, and if their attachment
to the 1 inch thick steel can is sufficient. (More bolts, etc.)
> If you already have the motor adapter plate built, there is enough surface
> at the bottom for a support plate to bolt to.
This will be a direct-drive conversion. No transmission, no adapter plate
or spacer. Just a direct connection to the driveshaft yoke:
http://ohmbre.org/gallery/v/ConversionProject/Parts/motor/IMG_0113.jpg.html
http://ohmbre.org/gallery/v/ConversionProject/Parts/motor/IMG_0114.jpg.html
The motor will be located under the cab, supported between the frame
rails. In a way this simplifies things, but in another sense it removes
some of the usual options.
> I bolted large 3/8 inch x 4 inch x 4 inch aluminum angles to the front and
> rear plates and bolted them down on to a angle that was welded to the
> frame. I used engine donuts between the aluminum angle and steel angle.
> I used this method on both the engine and electric motor when my EV was a
> series hybred at the time.
Providing vibration isolation is definitely in the plan; I'm trying not to
worry about it at the moment, but I'll have to think about it when I
decide what the end of each ear is going to look like, since that would be
the best place to join with some kind of shock-absorbing device like a
rubber engine mount.
--chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know the equationa a well as you do...
You are missing the main Variable Useage or actual loading.
The rest don't mean squat unless you know how hard it's been pushed
thermally.
What is important... is a old abused Curtis can run for years... and die
when ever it chooses to .
So can a brand new one.
Saying you are going to swap out a controller, just because it's time is a
waste of money, unless you unload it on some sucker for real cash.
I would put the heatsink on the old one and run it intill it dies, and keep
the low hour one until you need it.
Heck... if you paid for it, run the darn thing.
Every hour you get on the old one is a hour you don't have to put on the new
one.
I use solid slabs of Alum plate and about 4 1/4 inch drill holes for
cooling.
Curtii have that nice "Thermos bottle" cooling design, once hot Stays hot!.
And maybe the list should remember that I have run a few old beat up Curtis
controllers for years... with very little heatsink. They were dead when I
got them
I got more miles out of them... and then upgraded to a Raptor. So... I have
kept the Dead a Live for more than one life time.
The fail mode is not Dead caps, it's fried FETs, in gate drive failed on
mode.
The fails I remember were water ingestion, shorted high volts to the pot
control lines and abusive Precharge...aka NONE.
These fails don't have much to do with the basic design, they are foolish
thing done to the controller by the user.
Like most batteries, they are murdered, and rarely die of old age.
I have yet to see a Curtii with caps on fire. I have seen other controllers
litterally light the Cap cases on fire.
But yes clearly better cooling will give you the best life on any
controller, power stage or charger.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: Heatsink sought for Curtis 1221c
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > First keep that new 1221C in the box until the old one does the
> > "Popcorn song". Get every cent out of the old unit, that's just
> > free running. When it goes, you have the replacement.
>
> Except that it is worth more as a used *working* controller than as a
> used *dead* controller!
>
> > Overheating, does not really hurt these controllers.. Heat alone
> > is not the grim Reaper. They are programmed to protect themselves,
> > and they do so.
>
> Rich, you know better. Heat *is* the poison that will kill it! It's the
> old Arrhenius equation -- roughly, every 10 deg.C rise in temperture
> cuts the life of your electronic components in HALF!
>
> The electrolytic capacitors in a Curtis controller are only rated for
> 2000 hours at temperature. When they fail, the now-uncontrolled voltage
> spikes will kill the MOSFETs.
>
> The MOSFETs themselves age over time. Their breakdown voltage drops,
> their on-resistance increases, etc. The higher the temperature, the
> faster they age. That 1-2-4-8 temperature multiplier can shorten the
> MOSFET life from its 100,000 hours at 25 deg.C (won't fails in your
> lifetime) to 390 hours at 105 deg.C (won't even last a year)!
>
> All the rest of the parts are subject to this same type of degradation
> due to temperature.
>
> > Any heat sink will do...
>
> Well, sort of. Anything is better than nothing. The basic Curtis case
> doesn't have enough surface area for effective cooling, even with a huge
> airflow over it.
>
> But the whole point is to cool the case enough so it is not too hot to
> touch (aroound 120 deg.F for a metal surface). It's all about surface
> area and airflow. Adding a slab of aluminum to the base won't do
> anything by itself, because it has a negligible effect on the surface
> area.
>
> But press-fitting 1" aluminum fins into the slots in the case adds very
> little metal, but a huge increase in surface area. Since this is a loto
> of work, most people buy a commercial finned heatsink, and attach it to
> the case with a heat-conductive material.
>
> Note that the Curtis design happens to route most of the heat to the
> mounting base surface. If the temperature is still too high, then
> increase the airflow with a fan. With "enough" air you can cool anything
> -- but the amount of air gets ridiculous if you don't have enough
> surface area.
>
> If there's no room for enough fins, and you can't get enough airflow, go
> to liquid cooling. For a Curtis, I'd get two 1/8" aluminum plates, and
> space them about 1/8" apart with washers at the mounting hole locations.
> Glue these two sheets and the washers together with silicone rubber.
> Also put a bead all the way around the outside edges. This creates a
> 3/8" thick "cold plate", sealed at the edges and at each mounting hole.
> Drill holes in one of the sheets at opposite corners, and attach hose
> fittings. Use a small pump to circuilate water/antifreeze through the
> cold plate, and a remotely-located radiator (an old car heater core will
> do).
> --
> If you would not be forgotten
> When your body's dead and rotten
> Then write of great deeds worth the reading
> Or do the great deeds worth repeating
> -- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For the "smaller" motors, C-face mounting is sufficient. Looking at the
photos, it appears that this is not possible with the 13" motor, mostly
because of those bolt heads sticking out of the face. Why not simply
replace the bolts in the face (and tail end) with bolts a little longer,
and bolt plate aluminum on both ends? I'm not sure what you'd do with
the smaller bolts/screws found in the interstices of the larger bolts.
Chris Robison wrote:
For a while I've been trying to think of ways to mount my motor under the
cabin of my truck. The motor is pictured here:
http://ohmbre.org/gallery/v/ConversionProject/Parts/motor
http://ohmbre.org/gallery/v/ConversionProject/Parts/motor/IMG_0109.jpg.html
I don't really like the feet that Netgain provided, and I don't think
they'll be useful. I'm pretty sure I'll end up removing them. The
alternative mounting idea that keeps coming to mind is to change the shape
of both endcaps, to form large "ears" on the sides. This would give me
four mounting points that I could attach to the frame rails running
parallel to the sides of the motor. I might even triangulate them with
support rods along the sides of the motor to resist bending stresses.
Initially from looking at the pictures (and generally being ignorant) I
had thought that these were made from aluminum plate -- simple solution, I
just cut new plates in the shape that I want, drill/lathe the proper holes
for the bearings and bolts, and then assemble the motor with the new end
plates.
Well, obviously to anyone with any sense, they're not plates; they're
machined castings. So, it looks like I've got a couple options. First
would be to add an additional plate in the shape that I want on top of the
existing one, and get longer bolts to attach them. This would add a lot of
weight, and I'd like to avoid as much of that as I can.
So, my question. Can anyone come up with any reasons I shouldn't make
ears from aluminum plate of the same thickness as the exposed aluminum at
the edges of the motor ends (11/16" thick) and then TIG weld them in
place? Is this a worthwhile plan?
There are 8 bolts per end, and they're thinner than I'd hoped; 3/8" at the
threads. Of course I'd swap them for grade 8, but even so I'm thinking it
might be a good idea to drill and tap for a few more.
I'm not thrilled with the idea of removing the caps from the motor to do
the work, but I'm assuming that this is not something I want to attempt
with them still attached to the motor. Comments?
My welder is a 185A inverter-based unit:
http://www.thermadyne.com/newsNewProductDetail.asp?div=tai&id=220
I know that aluminum welding requires a lot more power than steel; is this
something I should be attempting with a welder of this size? Is pure argon
an acceptable gas to use? Any suggestions on flow rate, filler rod
alloy/diameter, tungsten composition, size and shaping, etc? (I currently
use 1% lanthanated, 2.4mm.) I have already read quite a bit on the topic
and I plan to study this stuff thoroughly before even beginning to
practice, but any thoughts from experienced welders here would be
appreciated.
So far I've had some success at simple DC welding on steel with this
machine, but I haven't tried AC welding yet. I need to get some experience
using it on aluminum of the same thickness before doing it on the motor
caps, but I think I can pick it up given some time and practice on test
material.
Ultimately, I need a solution that will hold a nearly 400lb motor to the
underside of the truck's cabin, withstanding 1100+ ft-lbs of torque,
torsional shock loads, suspension-dampened vertical impacts, and
longitudinal loads from acceleration and braking. If anyone's interested,
I'll try to produce a drawing of the shape I have in mind. If I'm headed
in the wrong direction, I'd appreciate a better idea!
--chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John, Roland, all,
> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
I've been getting FAR more than that. I think you guys may be having
some email problems.
While e-mail problems may be the case for some, I don't think that rules
out the fact that the EVDL hasn't seemed to work "normally" for some
time now.
I for one have had issues trying to post to the EVDL for several months
now. Usually, I have to send 2-4 copies of my e-mail to the list server
for one to go through -- as e-mails to the list server appear to
randomly end up in a black hole (they don't bounce nor do they get
posted). Other times all the e-mails I send make it through on the first
try. I've seen several others mention having similar problems as well...
I do seem to receive all the e-mails sent to the EVDL, but they are
delivered at random times, not necessarily in any particular order.
For example, while most EVDL e-mails are delivered to me within an hour
of being sent, sometimes singles or groups of them will arrive 1-3 days
after they were originally sent to the list server.
> Roland Wiench wrote:
I am also been getting all my WEB addresses I sent out, become double
up for some reason.
It sounds like you're composing e-mails in HTML format, hence the e-mail
client is automatically inserting the appropriate HTML code to make the
web address a hyperlink e.g. it is adding <a href="web_address"> </a>
around the web address you type. Because the EVDL list server converts
all messages to plain text, we see the (normally hidden) HTML code
printed as well as the original web address you typed...
Hope that helps,
--
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://go.DriveEV.com/
http://www.ACEAA.org/
--------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After going to PLAIN TEXT the WEB sites are still double up. Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Roland Wiench<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: Is the list down?
Hello Darin,
go to:
http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html<http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html<http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html<http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlisthtml>>
There is a list of the EV List administrators.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Darin<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To:
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
; Darin Cosgrove<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: Is the list down?
While on the topic of list issues....
Can anyone direct me to a list administrator?
There are 4 addresses listed in the "welcome message" I received last
month upon joining. I've tried contacting each of them and have
received bounces from two and no replies from the other two.
thanks,
Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, Feb 07, 2006 at 03:37:12PM -0700, Roland Wiench wrote:
> After going to PLAIN TEXT the WEB sites are still double up. Roland
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Roland Wiench<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 2:34 PM
> Subject: Re: Is the list down?
>
>
> Hello Darin,
>
> go to:
> http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html<http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html<http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html<http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlisthtml>>
>
Try going to: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
This is just a test.
--- End Message ---
