EV Digest 5157
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) DC shunt motor on eBay
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) RE: Regen settings, was Re: E-Volks Geo Metro Conversion
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Killacycle nearly in the top 10
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Tour de Sol Press Release
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Ranger question (for future reference)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) uhvm plastic
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Where to buy KiloVac Contactors?
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) horsepower
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Killacycle nearly in the top 10
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: horsepower
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: horsepower
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: horsepower
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Hawker charging profiles (was Re: Regen settings)
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: DC shunt motor on eBay
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: horsepower
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Tour de Sol Press Release, an' Stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Where to buy KiloVac Contactors?
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Killacycle nearly in the top 10
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Any SepEx controllers for a 100V motor? No lightweight at 240lbs:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7587710999
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris said:
> I'd say follow my charge profile; full blast to 350 volts,
> then hold at 350 volts till current is down to 3amps, then
> go to 375 volts at a nice slow 2a rate.
So do you wait until the current drops to 3 or to 2 Amps?
What do you do when the voltage hits 375V?
Do you have the original spec Hawkers in 2 strings or are
you running other batteries like I am?
How do you take care that the current is balanced between
the two strings?
I think the current should be proportional to the battery
right, so my 110Ah pack could run 3 Amp iso 2?
Your profile is the opposite of what the manufacturer
recommends for these batteries - they say to charge it
with max 40A until it hits 14.6 - 14.8V (my guess is that
the lower voltage is for higher temps) then keep it at
constant voltage until current drops to 3A and then
drop the voltage to 13.6 - 13.8V for continuous float charge.
And yes, this is the Wavedriver controller.
There are some drawbacks to the SW it is running, besides
not having a full set of documentation so I may miss some
of its possibilities, but I have found that it can be
programmed with a profile (array of values) for breaking,
but seems not to have a neat voltage back-off, whenever
it hits a limit it will simply completely cut out.
(So, you are left without regen brakes instead of reduced
brake force when the brake is pushed and the voltage
limit is reached, I need to re-apply the brake to get
regen back.)
That is a bit annoying, but unless I can find the source
code and a way to compile it, I cannot do much to improve
its behaviour other than configuring it so it will not
cross the limits.
I have reconfigured the regen to not do anything when the
SOC is above 95%, because the regen is not proportional to
the SOC, it is either active or disabled.
I have not encountered the overvoltage shutdown again, so
I keep my fingers crossed.
Now I need to check balancing and alignment of the wheels
to get rid of the vibration around 55 MPH, not present at
lower speeds or between 60 - 72MPH.
(72 MPH is the redline of the motor at 9000 RPM and the
controller will noticeable reduce power when that line
is crossed)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
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Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 1:12 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Regen settings, was Re: E-Volks Geo Metro Conversion
Cor van de Water wrote:
> While rear wheel brake-out is a bad thing, I do not think you
> can lock up a wheel with regen, as the regen will
> completely cut out as soon as the wheel stops spinning, so
> there is automatically an ABS function on regen.
You can definitely do it with a shunt motor; I have skidded the wheels
down the driveway after letting it roll then dropping it into speed 4, L
gear (full field, full regen). I've also chirped the Prizm's tires using
regen and L coming down a snowy hill. Never had a rain problem.
> My S-10 US Electricar has a configurable controller and I
> have been experimenting with different regen patterns over
> the past week.
Is this the Waverunner? Very cool.
> Even scarier were the times that I took off with freshly
> charged batteries and had to brake sharply, only to find
> that the almost full batteries could not take the regen
> current, so the voltage rose to astronomically high levels
> (over 420V) and the controller reported an overvoltage
> condition and shut down (dropped the contactors).
Wow, that is terrible. GM may be an annoying company, but they *really*
do think things out when they put their mind to it. The Dolphin that
they went and built is a really good design and well thought out in this
regard.
Regen is basically controlled by a pot attached to the brake pedal to
measure pressure, and wiring into the "gear selector". When rolling
around in D, it limits regen to around 10% or so max. When braking it
increases regen to smoothly mesh with the main brakes. It uses the
charge profile on regen to limit battery pack voltage to 363 volts,
which keeps the pack from overcharging and keeps the current at that
point to below the recombination level of the batteries.
If you drop the car into "2", then the computer re-maps the motor torque
curves for driving, and increases the coast regen to something like 30%.
If you drop it into L, regen increases to 60% on decel/coast, and the
torque maps are for power over speed. Feels a lot like an ICE car
actually; I have crawled up ice covered hills in "L".
Also if regen current goes over 50 amps it closes a relay to light the
rear brake light. No sense in having someone pile into you just because
you dropped it into L at 70mph (which produces a lot of regen, slows the
car down quickly).
The result is a very driveable car that "feels" like an ICE car. It's
highway range may be a smudge less than a non-regen car (since that 10%
regen creates more drag than simply letting the car coast) but the
feeling and intuition is very close to a normal car while keeping pretty
much all of the regen benefits.
> I still can get over 100A at 370V into my batteries
> occasionally and I feel that this 37kWatt of electric
> brake is enough to slow me down in all but the emergency
> stops.
I think you should really back this off somewhat. If you have Hawkers,
you should limit the amps at high voltage. Otherwise they will boil like
nuts. At the same time though, I have done 150a of regen into the pack
when it was at 50% discharge and pack voltage didn't go over 325 volts.
They can really suck the current if they have the room.
I'd say follow my charge profile; full blast to 350 volts, then hold at
350 volts till current is down to 3amps, then go to 375 volts at a nice
slow 2a rate. My pack is 2 years old now, and running fine. My previous
two were both dried out.
> NOTE that my batteries have a pretty good life regarding
> the fact that they never need to deliver more than 200A
> at about 300V, so this is close to 60kW to the motor.
> For my batteries this is a 2C discharge current and it
> only occurs during hard accels. Normal current is under
> 100A, typical 80-90A at 320V for 65 MPH, which means
> that the 50kW motor is at half-load and my truck uses
> approx 400Wh per mile.
Sounds about like the Prizm, however what kills these batteries is
charging at high currents up at the higher voltages. Without clampers
you can have one battery ripping around 16 volts with it's neighbor at
14 or so. 14 is fine for 10-20amps charge rate, that rate at 16
volts=cooked batery. If you back off the charge current, the 16 volt
battery will come down in voltage and it's recombiners can deal with the
more limited gassing without venting.
> To get back on topic:
> Make sure you measure how much current your regen does
> supply to your batteries.
> If they are spec'ed to be charged with 40A continuous
> (like mine) then be very careful if your regen can
> supply more than twice this current while your batteries
> are still full.
I think a good rule of thumb is to just voltage limit regen to 14.5
volts on a 12 volt battery.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The White Zombie has a completely different drive package than it did when
it started racing. It is still the White Zombie
The KillaCycle has the SAME drive package as it did the first day it raced.
Components have been upgraded, the body has changed a few times, the frame
has been redone, I played with a different name for awhile, but it is still
the KillaCycle.
Race vehicles evolve. It is their nature. Would we have it any other way?
Bill Dube'
At 02:43 AM 2/6/2006, you wrote:
Howdy Folks
I went to the Dragtimes.com site intending to vote for the Killacycle in
addition to voting for the other three EVs there.
I found the Killacycle page at Dragtimes somewhat confusing as it didn't
show a photo of the bike which actually set the record back in 2000, but
the bike which was called the "Megacycle" then apparently re-named the
"Killacycle II". I looked a little closer and noticed another discrepancy
in the description of the bike. It mentions having a Zilla 2K, which was
unavailable when the record was set.
Anyway... I went to the Killacycle.com site to verify that I was not
mistaken. It was then that what may have been seen as simple mistakes seem
to take on the look of re-writing history :-0
The site has gone thru a complete redesign and most of the content
including all references to the original Killacycle (with the exception of
a few dozen mixed photos) has been removed.
On the main page it shows the "Killacycle II" (formerly known as the
Megacycle) and it is represented as being the record holder.
This is what it says-
"The Killacycle II-The World's Quickest Electric Motorcycle
1/4 mile drag-9.450 seconds @ 152.07 mph"
Well... I may have been born at night, but not last night.
This "fact sheet" attributes the record to the bike described as the
"Killacycle II", which is not the record holder-
http://www.killacycle.com/pages/factsheet.html
This page actually mixes the specs up between the two machines (Zilla 2K
with TMF batteries, both not used at the same time or on the same bike AFAIK)-
http://www.killacycle.com/pages/specs_page.html
This page has a plea for TMF batteries-
http://www.killacycle.com/pages/new_page.html
Then here is the (new?) TMF battery pack?-
http://www.killacycle.com/pages/p_pages/p_batterypack.html
I know for a fact that the "Killacycle II" never even came close to a
record and not only popped those SVR-14 batteries from the start, it also
had severe handling problems (I can vouch for that because I was standing
directly behind the bleach box when the bike ran at Woodburn '02 and
watched it run repeatedly, it would torque severely to the left with the
power cranked up and the rider would have to back off).
I found the first mention of the 9.450 @ 152.07 run (10/8/00) here-
http://web.archive.org/web/20001008185623/http://www.killacycle.com/
Lots of photos of the "new world record holder" (the original Killacycle)
here-
http://web.archive.org/web/20010417000006/www.killacycle.com/pictures.html
Here is the build page for the Megacycle (now known as the "Killacycle
II", not the record-holding bike)-
http://web.archive.org/web/20021209054851/killacycle.com/MegaCycle.htm
I didn't vote for the Killacycle and won't be voting for it due to this
(mystery to me as to why) misrepresentation.
Maybe Bill can explain this.
I don't get it unless it's a play for sponsors.
The original bike and it's record speak for themselves. Why would you need
to misrepresent it?
...
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 7 Feb 2006 at 13:58, M Bianchi wrote:
> Hybrid and alternative fuel vehicle owners are
> invited to participate in the Monte Carlo-style rally and high-mileage
> challenge. Students, inventors, and manufacturers are invited to build and
> showcase one-of-a-kind or production vehicles that aim to reduce oil use and
> carbon emissions to zero and to compete in either the Tour de Sol Championship
> with full-size cars, or in the Around-Town Vehicle Competition for electric
> bikes and neighborhood electric vehicles. Younger students can get involved
> in
> competitions for model cars powered by solar or hydrogen fuel cells.
>
Sigh. I see that once again this year the TdS is virtually ignoring road
EVs.
Yes, I know. We go though this every year, and we're always assured that
EVs are not excluded. All well and good, but why are road EVs banned from
the TdS publicity? Not allowed on the tour, only around town? Are the
Tour's directors ashamed of EVs or something? Afraid of their roots?
Oh sure, we're supposely welcome even though we're not mentioned - or at
least have been in the past. But how on earth do they expect to get any EV
participation when they don't invite EVs? It's hard to believe that EVs and
their proponents are truly welcome when they are pointedly ignored.
E-bikes are great, a real EV success story, but they're rather limited for
real transportation use. NEVs are, in my view, of even more limited
utility. Of course, being limited to "around town" pretty neatly reinforces
that image.
Hybrid almost-EVs are a good intermediate step if they plug in, but I'm not
that impressed with the ones that derive all their energy from gasoline.
After all, that idea is almost 10 years old now. When are the gas-only
hybrids going to graduate to electricity?
I know some people are proponents of them, but I'm not too keen on the
veggie-mobiles, either. Many are noisy, smelly diesels (just because the
exhaust smells like french fries doesn't necessarily mean it's healthy).
And they burn a farm product that's raised with petroleum fertilizer and
pesticides, and harvested, processed, and transported using petroleum fuels.
When I started writing this, I planned to suggest that EVers should boycott
the TdS. Further in, I'm more sad than angry, so I guess I won't go that
far. And perhaps I've just missed mention of road EVs in the publicity
materials.
I would love to be corrected - shown where the publicity extends open arms
to road EVs like the old days. I just don't see it. It seems to me that
TdS has publicly turned its back on EVs, and I'm deeply disappointed. EVs
were there for you when you were just getting started. They are more
essential than ever now - and, with battery developments of the last few
years, closer to broad public acceptability than ever before. Why now do
they deserve the cold shoulder?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Since I have yet to find any readily-available 8Vs (Delphi or otherwise),
somewhere in the foreseeable future I will have to replace my Ranger's pack
with more common 12Vs (possibly the Universal Batteries Cor van de Water has in
an GM E-10 - I await future reports on this). The Ford system cannot function
without the BCM getting all the proper data, so I had considered 2 cheats:
a.) 3 8V BCMs in series reads each battery pair, or
b.) Each BCM monitors a small (2-3Ah) 8V battery, all of which are only
connected to the traction pack as a complete string.
The first choice is probably too simple for these kind of electronics, the
second leaves individual monitoring up to me (but even a few of Lee Hart's
balance monitoring LEDs may be enough for that). The price of replacing the
BCMs would probably be much more than the ~$3K for a pack of UB121100, so there
is an economic reason for all this.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is it OK to use uhvm plastic for motor mounts or
brackets?
Thanks!
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This LEV200 looks like a really good product. Tyco typically makes pretty
good commercial products (or buys companies that do). For the $75 Doug
Hartley has offered them for I may try one out (if he still has it
available). I'm mainly interestd because of the specifications. I bought
an Albright SW200 but am having second thoughts about using it. Its
contacts are only rated for 96VDC. Although many say its successfully been
used at 156VDC. Would I be pushing it to use it on a 192V pack? Since I
will precharge I'm not so worried about welding it during closing. Should I
worry about it welding if breaking full pack current at this far above the
rated contact voltage?
This Tyco/KiloVac unit LEV200 series claims an estimated cycle life at
270VDC of 100 breaks at 800A and 10,000 breaks at rated continuous current
of 200A. I hope to never have to break the pack at full current but its good
to know there's an estimated 100 times I *could* do it.
What do you guys that run over 192V packs use for a main contactor? Do you
series up lower voltage contacts?
Mike,
Anchorage, AK.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 6:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Where to buy KiloVac Contactors?
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Don't use this contactor above 120vdc. Lawrence Rhodes...
Why, if it's rated for 2,000 air at 300 volts DC? Add a 10,000 AIR DC
crash fuse on it and you should be ok, correct?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are there any other considerations when computing
horsepower of an electric DC motor?
So if I have 120 vdc , and I am pulling 200amps of 9"
war P
that would be 120*200=24000 watts
HP=24000/746=32.2
I can see that it changes, but I was wondering when
you compare it to an ICE...it doesn't work.
Perhaps the ICE uses some of its HP to do other things
besides moving the car?
Mike
Fairbanks, AK
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--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The White Zombie has a completely different drive package than it did
when it started racing. It is still the White Zombie
That's because it uses the same frame/body as it did before. This is
clearly an evolved design of the same vehicle. If John took Blue Meanie
and painted it white and put his motors into it, Blue Meanie would not
become White Zombie. It would be a different vehicle, IMO.
The KillaCycle has the SAME drive package as it did the first day it
raced. Components have been upgraded, the body has changed a few times,
the frame has been redone, I played with a different name for awhile,
but it is still the KillaCycle.
Actually, a totally different frame and a totally different body mean
you are talking about a totally different vehicle. The "drive package"
should consist of the motor, controller and battery pack, yet I believe
the controller and the battery pack are different from when the record
was set. The motor seems to be the only significant component that had
anything to do with setting the record you are now claiming for the new
cycle.
The new cycle, regardless of what you name it, is not the record holder,
yet you are representing it as such. This is dishonest. Why not simply
identify the older vehicle as the record holder and present the new one
without lying about records it does not hold?
Maybe people don't really care about you misrepresenting NEDRA records
and race vehicles...
-Ken Trough
V is for Voltage
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well you neglected to factor in efficiency, i.e. the warP is probably
about 85% efficient so you only get 27.3 hp.
Anyway, what you have stumbled across is the basic difference in the way
they rate the power of ICEs and Electric motors.
ICEs are rated by their Peak HP under laboratory conditions. The chances
of ever actually hitting this power rating on the road are just about
zero, and if you did it would only happend for a second or two before the
conditions change.
Electric motors are generally rated at their continuous HP. This means
the amount of power they can produce on a continuous basis, all day long,
without overheating.
It's generally not practical to rate electric motors by Peak HP, because
this varies (on the same motor) depending on applied voltage and current.
What happens if you push 2,000 amps through the warP instead of 200 amps?
You can do this...for a few seconds. Is this the peak power for the
motor? What happens if you hit it with 3,000 amps? What do you consider
Peak power on an electric motor? The amount of power it can produce for
10 msec before it fireballs?
So, ICEs are rated in Peak HP and electric motors are rated in Cont HP.
This is why a 10 hp electric motor can push around a converted car, at
highway speeds, that used to have a 100 hp Gas engine.
Generally speaking conversions are running the motor at something over
it's continuous rating because they don't carry enough energy to run the
motor for more than perhaps one hour. So the motor starts getting hot,
but you run out of energy before it overheats.
> Are there any other considerations when computing
> horsepower of an electric DC motor?
>
> So if I have 120 vdc , and I am pulling 200amps of 9"
> war P
>
> that would be 120*200=24000 watts
>
> HP=24000/746=32.2
>
> I can see that it changes, but I was wondering when
> you compare it to an ICE...it doesn't work.
>
> Perhaps the ICE uses some of its HP to do other things
> besides moving the car?
>
> Mike
> Fairbanks, AK
>
> __________________________________________________
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>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mike,
My GE motor label reads like this:
32 HP
165 volt @ 175 amp @ 6000 RPM @ 83%
Therefore:
165 x 175 = 28875 watts
28875/746 = 38.7 HP (deliver from the battery)
38.7 x 0.83 = 32.12 HP (that the motor delivers to the motor shaft)
at 6000 RPM
Torque is in directly proportional to the rpm, unlike a engine that develops
its maximum torque at a certain rpm.
So at 6000 rpm the torque will be at a minimum value and at 1 rpm it will be
at the maximum value in a standard DC motor using direct DC power from a
battery pack.
Off the line, the EV with the same HP as a ICE, the EV will out accelerate
the ICE, but as the speed increases the ICE may overtake the EV.
This can be overcome by going over the rated specifications of the motor.
If you can dump 3000 amps at 400 volts from the battery for a very short
time which could be over 1000 hp with losses.
This is one of the reasons that the ICE people don't understand why a tiny
electric motor can out pace a ICE.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "mike golub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 2:47 AM
Subject: horsepower
> Are there any other considerations when computing
> horsepower of an electric DC motor?
>
> So if I have 120 vdc , and I am pulling 200amps of 9"
> war P
>
> that would be 120*200=24000 watts
>
> HP=24000/746=32.2
>
> I can see that it changes, but I was wondering when
> you compare it to an ICE...it doesn't work.
>
> Perhaps the ICE uses some of its HP to do other things
> besides moving the car?
>
> Mike
> Fairbanks, AK
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another formula is:
Power = torque * RPM * (1min/60sec) * 2 * pi
Power is generally low at low RPMs because the rate at which the force
(rotational work) is applied is low. Electric motors generate lots of
torque at low RPMs, whereas ICE generate most of their torque at higher
RPMS, thus have a higher RPM rating.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of mike golub
Sent: February 8, 2006 1:48 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: horsepower
Are there any other considerations when computing horsepower of an electric
DC motor?
So if I have 120 vdc , and I am pulling 200amps of 9"
war P
that would be 120*200=24000 watts
HP=24000/746=32.2
I can see that it changes, but I was wondering when you compare it to an
ICE...it doesn't work.
Perhaps the ICE uses some of its HP to do other things besides moving the
car?
Mike
Fairbanks, AK
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- Begin Message ---
So do you wait until the current drops to 3 or to 2 Amps?
What do you do when the voltage hits 375V?
Ok, I looked it up on my screen shots. The profile I use is as follows
(with my Magnecharger CC200 system)
1) Charge pack at 12 amp rate (I use 12 now since most of my runs are
short, could do 18 amps if I was really deep-discharging) constant
current till voltage hits 350 volts, or timer hits 3 hours.
This is the bulk charge to get things up to speed quickly. Typically I
will get most of the pack charged using this. The timer is to keep the
pack from overcharging somehow, as I rarely draw 36ah from the pack at
this stage.
2) Hold at 350 volts constant voltage till the current drops to 2 amps.
This allows the batteries to "catch up" and fill as the voltage is held
constant and the current is reduced. The focus is on gentle with the
batteries as they get more full to keep them from gassing and slipping
out of sync.
3) Charge at 1.5 amps till voltage hits 370 volts.
This allows a nice slow ramp-up to 370 volts (14.8 volts per battery).
Batteries that might overshoot usually don't because the current is low,
batteries that are still low seem to suck up the current. Also any
battery that might gas is below the recombiner threshold, so they tend
not to vent.
In a very real way, I'm using the AGM's recombiners as a .75 amp
clamper. So far I have not seen the evidence of drying out batteries,
which is they have extremely low resistance but very limited capacity.
4) Hold at 370 volts for 10 minutes.
This just brings the rest of the batteries in line. Charge current
continues to drop at this point.
Terminate.
Every 20 or so charges I use the Dolphin's stupid charger (constant
voltage to 390 volts, 2.5 amps ramping down to 1a @390) to peak off the
pack. Usually it takes a full pack from 370 volts to 390 volts in 10
minutes or less. So no real equalization seems to be needed. Also using
a CEF of 98% on the E-meter I typically result in a charge level of .0
to .1ah at the end of a charge and maybe .2 after a charge and top off
using the Dolphin. If the batteries were floating out of sync, I would
expect to see a larger number when doing the equalize.
As for the high current needs, when I hit the brake pedal the pack gets
hit with up to 100 amps of current for 10-15 second bursts. This I hope
is what will satisfy the "brief, high inrush current" that Hawkers like.
Also to note is I have a set of nine temp sensors in the pack, attached
to the positive terminals on select batteries. My normal setting is to
abort charge if over 35 degrees C on any sensor. This means on hot days
(>90-95 degrees) I either need to let the car rest after a hard run or I
just charge using the Dolphin. Or I charge at night. I could bump this
to 40, but the higher the battery temp, the more likely to gas.
Do you have the original spec Hawkers in 2 strings or are
you running other batteries like I am?
Two strings, 25 batteries per string. They seem to stay in balance so far.
How do you take care that the current is balanced between
the two strings?
I don't. My hope is that the weaker string will pull more current and
keep things in line. So far it seems to work.
I think the current should be proportional to the battery
right, so my 110Ah pack could run 3 Amp iso 2?
Yes, I suppose so. Part of the reason I hold at 1.5a instead of 2 is
because 1.5a is still under the threshold of the recombiners, so if one
string somehow takes 99% of the charge current, the batteries will still
not vent. If I went to 3a on the float-up, I might gas a string.
Your profile is the opposite of what the manufacturer
recommends for these batteries - they say to charge it
with max 40A until it hits 14.6 - 14.8V (my guess is that
the lower voltage is for higher temps) then keep it at
constant voltage until current drops to 3A and then
drop the voltage to 13.6 - 13.8V for continuous float charge.
*nod* You are correct, this is not the manufacturer specs. I did the
manufacturer's specs a few years back and dried out a pack in 6 months.
I think the problem with this is that the manufacturer doesn't take into
account the issues with long strings. One battery reaches 14.7 a bit
before the others. Not a problem if you're pumping 2a into the string,
but if you're pumping 40a into the string then that battery is going to
overshoot 15 volts, and gas like heck because um... it has 40a running
thru it. This will result in less water in the battery which will mean
it will hit "full" faster next charge. Repeat, and you have a dried out
battery. If you're just charging one battery you can see that happen,
but in a long string that 16-17 volts will be missed in the average of
the other 24 batteries.
If you back off your charge at 14 volts per battery, then the ones that
might be a bit more full get whacked with less current. They will still
create gas inside themselves, but more slowly. If they gas below the
rate of the recombiners then they don't vent.
And yes, this is the Wavedriver controller.
There are some drawbacks to the SW it is running, besides
not having a full set of documentation so I may miss some
of its possibilities, but I have found that it can be
programmed with a profile (array of values) for breaking,
but seems not to have a neat voltage back-off, whenever
it hits a limit it will simply completely cut out.
(So, you are left without regen brakes instead of reduced
brake force when the brake is pushed and the voltage
limit is reached, I need to re-apply the brake to get
regen back.)
Very cool. We're still working on the Dolphin programming to play with
stuff like this. I have an electric S10 coming in a few days, then I get
to figure out how to repair a Dolphin with a ground fault, broken
computer, and a power supply module with a burn hole in it. Should be
educational.
Now I need to check balancing and alignment of the wheels
to get rid of the vibration around 55 MPH, not present at
lower speeds or between 60 - 72MPH.
(72 MPH is the redline of the motor at 9000 RPM and the
controller will noticeable reduce power when that line
is crossed)
That sounds like a flat spot in the tires, no doubt. I remember that in
my 914 when it was parked for a few years. New tires fix it.
Also interesting about the redline; I can take the Prizm over 80mph
without issues. My guess is the gearing on the truck is lower than the
Prizm because it's bigger and all. Still 70mph is enough to keep up on
the highways around here.
God, I love an electric that can haul along at 80mph on the highways. :-)
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
DCP AllTrax is working on Sep Ex. controllers. I'd
give them a call at 541.476.3565.
peace,
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Any SepEx controllers for a 100V motor? No
> lightweight at 240lbs:
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7587710999
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:25 AM 2/8/2006, you wrote:
Another formula is:
Power = torque * RPM * (1min/60sec) * 2 * pi
Power is generally low at low RPMs because the rate at which the force
(rotational work) is applied is low. Electric motors generate lots of
torque at low RPMs, whereas ICE generate most of their torque at higher
RPMS, thus have a higher RPM rating.
Victoria, BC, Canada
Or the formula from James Watt.
HP = 33,000ft.lbs. / minute
Watt first used 32,580 but it was rounded off at some point.
In a piston engine, ice or steam, this would be the average pressure in the
cylinder acting on the area of the piston for the length of the stroke for
the number of power strokes made in a minute.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David an' All;
( Snip- a- bit )
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 3:34 AM
Subject: Re: Tour de Sol Press Release
> When I started writing this, I planned to suggest that EVers should
boycott
> the TdS. Further in, I'm more sad than angry, so I guess I won't go that
> far. And perhaps I've just missed mention of road EVs in the publicity
> materials.
>
Yeah! Damn it. like EV's were a passsing fad? Seems like they, T de S. WAS
EV's as the name sez a lot, or USED to. When in the halycon daze of solar
panels and chargable cars. Meaning the solar panels stayed in one place and
were of enough size to put out a meaningful charge rate.But TDS goes where
it'd bread is buttered. Like TV and "News" medias, and tow the line. Oil
Co's I Bet have a hand in this?
> I would love to be corrected - shown where the publicity extends open arms
> to road EVs like the old days. I just don't see it. It seems to me that
> TdS has publicly turned its back on EVs, and I'm deeply disappointed. EVs
> were there for you when you were just getting started. They are more
> essential than ever now - and, with battery developments of the last few
> years, closer to broad public acceptability than ever before. Why now do
> they deserve the cold shoulder?
>
Well, I guess WE have to do something. Maybe the EAA could step to the
plate here? I know I'm asking alot of a small volunteer operation. The List,
hell, we ARE EV's ,but who has heard of US?NEDRA? Hey! Is there STILL a
NEDRA? At the risk of kicking a hornets nest or offensive cartoons? We are
pretty darn close, size wise, to the Whatever Org that runs T de S.I know we
are, sheer no. of guyz into EV's. But were all over the place, but the
Electric Triangle OR, WA and CA seems to be our "hotbed' Sure 'aint
Corrupticut. Since we are coming together in Chicagoland this spring, at
Joliet. THIS could sorta be our "T de S.??"New name, etc." Gasless in
USA"?Question Internal Combustion Ralley?"Youse guyz can do better than I.
OK bring it on back. Ideas?
Seeya. SOMEwhere?
Bob
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Typically you do not use a contactor to break under load on an EV. It is
usually used to make a contact. The SW 200 has large contacts rated to
handle 1000 amps for a full minute. I would definitely not count on using
one of these for a safety device to clear a load. One or two other devices
should be put in series between your pack and your motor and controller. We
use a circuit breaker and a mechanical disconnect is also a good idea as
well as a fuse. I have gone into the SW 200s and replaced the wimpy magnetic
blowouts with very strong rare earth magnets. This will help up the amount
of voltage the contactor will break but I have no way to test how much. Just
some ideas for you.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike & Paula Willmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 1:25 AM
Subject: RE: Where to buy KiloVac Contactors?
This LEV200 looks like a really good product. Tyco typically makes pretty
good commercial products (or buys companies that do). For the $75 Doug
Hartley has offered them for I may try one out (if he still has it
available). I'm mainly interestd because of the specifications. I bought
an Albright SW200 but am having second thoughts about using it. Its
contacts are only rated for 96VDC. Although many say its successfully
been
used at 156VDC. Would I be pushing it to use it on a 192V pack? Since I
will precharge I'm not so worried about welding it during closing. Should
I
worry about it welding if breaking full pack current at this far above the
rated contact voltage?
This Tyco/KiloVac unit LEV200 series claims an estimated cycle life at
270VDC of 100 breaks at 800A and 10,000 breaks at rated continuous current
of 200A. I hope to never have to break the pack at full current but its
good
to know there's an estimated 100 times I *could* do it.
What do you guys that run over 192V packs use for a main contactor? Do
you
series up lower voltage contacts?
Mike,
Anchorage, AK.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 6:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Where to buy KiloVac Contactors?
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Don't use this contactor above 120vdc. Lawrence Rhodes...
Why, if it's rated for 2,000 air at 300 volts DC? Add a 10,000 AIR DC
crash fuse on it and you should be ok, correct?
Chris
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--- Begin Message ---
The "White Zombie" time slips were obtained with the "White Zombie" with the
motor and controller configuration listed on the Drag Times site. Yours were
not, plain and simple. This is EXACTLY analogous to me renaming our yellow
street rod the Manaic Mazda II and attaching the Manaic Mazda eleven second
time slips to it. Great new form of logic you have come up with Bill. What
an interesting world it would be if we all used your form of logic.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: Killacycle nearly in the top 10
The White Zombie has a completely different drive package than it did when
it started racing. It is still the White Zombie
The KillaCycle has the SAME drive package as it did the first day it
raced. Components have been upgraded, the body has changed a few times,
the frame has been redone, I played with a different name for awhile, but
it is still the KillaCycle.
Race vehicles evolve. It is their nature. Would we have it any other way?
Bill Dube'
At 02:43 AM 2/6/2006, you wrote:
Howdy Folks
I went to the Dragtimes.com site intending to vote for the Killacycle in
addition to voting for the other three EVs there.
I found the Killacycle page at Dragtimes somewhat confusing as it didn't
show a photo of the bike which actually set the record back in 2000, but
the bike which was called the "Megacycle" then apparently re-named the
"Killacycle II". I looked a little closer and noticed another discrepancy
in the description of the bike. It mentions having a Zilla 2K, which was
unavailable when the record was set.
Anyway... I went to the Killacycle.com site to verify that I was not
mistaken. It was then that what may have been seen as simple mistakes seem
to take on the look of re-writing history :-0
The site has gone thru a complete redesign and most of the content
including all references to the original Killacycle (with the exception of
a few dozen mixed photos) has been removed.
On the main page it shows the "Killacycle II" (formerly known as the
Megacycle) and it is represented as being the record holder.
This is what it says-
"The Killacycle II-The World's Quickest Electric Motorcycle
1/4 mile drag-9.450 seconds @ 152.07 mph"
Well... I may have been born at night, but not last night.
This "fact sheet" attributes the record to the bike described as the
"Killacycle II", which is not the record holder-
http://www.killacycle.com/pages/factsheet.html
This page actually mixes the specs up between the two machines (Zilla 2K
with TMF batteries, both not used at the same time or on the same bike
AFAIK)-
http://www.killacycle.com/pages/specs_page.html
This page has a plea for TMF batteries-
http://www.killacycle.com/pages/new_page.html
Then here is the (new?) TMF battery pack?-
http://www.killacycle.com/pages/p_pages/p_batterypack.html
I know for a fact that the "Killacycle II" never even came close to a
record and not only popped those SVR-14 batteries from the start, it also
had severe handling problems (I can vouch for that because I was standing
directly behind the bleach box when the bike ran at Woodburn '02 and
watched it run repeatedly, it would torque severely to the left with the
power cranked up and the rider would have to back off).
I found the first mention of the 9.450 @ 152.07 run (10/8/00) here-
http://web.archive.org/web/20001008185623/http://www.killacycle.com/
Lots of photos of the "new world record holder" (the original Killacycle)
here-
http://web.archive.org/web/20010417000006/www.killacycle.com/pictures.html
Here is the build page for the Megacycle (now known as the "Killacycle
II", not the record-holding bike)-
http://web.archive.org/web/20021209054851/killacycle.com/MegaCycle.htm
I didn't vote for the Killacycle and won't be voting for it due to this
(mystery to me as to why) misrepresentation.
Maybe Bill can explain this.
I don't get it unless it's a play for sponsors.
The original bike and it's record speak for themselves. Why would you need
to misrepresent it?
...
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
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