EV Digest 5158
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Motor mounting: Welding, structural questions
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: DC shunt motor on eBay
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: EV digest 5157
by "Darrin Isaak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Ranger question (for future reference)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: uhvm plastic
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Tour de Sol Press Release
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Killacycle nearly in the top 10
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Aircraft Gen. Motor WAS Re: E-Volks Geo Metro Conversion
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Aircraft Gen. Motor WAS Re: E-Volks Geo Metro Conversion
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: uhvm plastic
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: horsepower
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Tour de Sol Press Release
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Aircraft Gen. Motor WAS Re: E-Volks Geo Metro Conversion
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Another Hot Lead. John Wayland eat you heart out.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Hawker charging profiles (was Re: Regen settings)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Motor mounting: Welding, structural questions
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 7 Feb 2006 14:55:01 -0600 (CST), "Chris Robison"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Tue, February 7, 2006 2:08 pm, David Dymaxion said:
>> Nice truck project and nice welder! 400 lbs, now that's a motor!
>
>Yeah, boy-howdy. :o) Two average people can barely lift (a couple inches,
>briefly). Took two plus an engine crane to set it on the stand it's on
>now.
>
>> Miller and Lincoln have little charts for current, rod thickness, gas
>> to use, etc. for different kinds of metals and thicknesses of metals.
>> You should be able to get one at a welding supply or off their web
>> sites. I have personally found I need to derate from the recommended
>> current (probably because I'm a slow beginner welder, and not a fast
>> experienced production welder) and seem to need a higher gas flow
>> rate (again, probably because I'm a beginner).
>
>I've read these manufacturer suggestions, but between them and suggestions
>from vendors, on forums, etc, I find that there's a lot of disagreement.
>Some swear by zirconated electrodes, some say it's only good for
>transformer-based sinewave AC, some say avoid altogether and use ceriated
>or lanthanated. In some cases I see butt joints with beveled edges to
>provide a bead groove, some diagrams show square edges and no gap
>whatsoever. Some like helium, though most sources indicate pure argon is
>fine. Some say preheat with acetylene first, some say don't because it
>drives carbon into the aluminum. But in assimilating all the varying
>advice, it seems like generally more input is better.
I haven't followed this thread but I did see this bit about welding.
Being a graduate of TVA's nuclear welding school, maybe I can add
something.
First off, pure tungsten is used for aluminum. Thoriated tungsten is
used for steel and other metals that use DC. Those other additives
are in response to radiophobia over the tiny bit of radioactivity that
thorium imparts. They are IMHO, vastly inferior to thorium.
Unless you're welding exotics, argon is the shield gas of choice.
Helium is much more difficult to control and is very much more
expensive. If you need very deep penetration for some reason, you can
add some CO2 to the argon. Not as much as with MIG.
Preheating aluminum will help keep it from warping. Not strictly
necessary with the thin section metal I saw on your motor but not a
bad idea. I don't know where that idea about acetylene came from.
I've never seen aluminum heated any other way than with fuel gas. I
use a big propane weed burner for larger objects like engine blocks
but the acetylene torch with a rose bud is just fine for smaller
things.
That said, I'd not even consider trying to hang that motor by the end
bells. I can just imagine the dynamic stresses acting on the bearings
with the vehicle underway and 400 lbs of pendulum bobbing around.
Second, you're almost surely going to distort the aluminum by welding
to it, preheat or not. Normally such work would be done before the
final machining. Not possible here.
Something else to think about. If that is a heat treated alloy such
as 6061T6, welding it will remove the heat treat and render it quite
soft. Not as soft as pure aluminum by any means but not nearly as
strong as the original material. What effect that might have on your
motor is unknown. If Warp is relying on the inherent strength of the
aluminum to support dynamic loads then a softer material might bend.
If you really must hang that motor by the ends, I suggest making up a
pair of half moon cradles that fit under the motor with end pieces
that come up the face a bit where they can be bolted to the face. This
can be aluminum if you wish. You may also drill and tap the frame for
further attachment points.
Re: welder derating. You won't be facing that issue with the amount
of welding you propose. Derating only comes into effect at higher
currents and then is proportional to the current.
I very much like the new breed of inverter welders. My next one will
be inverter-based. For non-professional welders, I particularly like
the pulse feature that goes by various names. This feature
periodically varies the welding current in duplication of what a pro
welder does. Low current to drop in filler, high current to burn it
into the joint, low current for the next drop of filler, etc. The pro
welder does this manually with a foot or thumb pedal. The pulse
feature does that for you. All you have to do is get in sync with the
pulsing.
Some non-inverter welders have that feature but the inverter ones do
it so much nice. Most also run the AC at a higher frequency than 60
hz which greatly cuts down on sputter and arc wander and makes for a
much nicer and quieter arc.
BTW, there are some very good welding courses online. The Navy has an
excellent one. I can't seem to find any bookmarks so Google is your
friend.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> DCP AllTrax is working on Sep Ex. controllers. I'd
> give them a call at 541.476.3565.
> peace,
>
> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Any SepEx controllers for a 100V motor? No
> > lightweight at 240lbs:
> >
> >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7587710999
> >
Well, *I'm* not at all in the market (not one of you "constructors"), but the
winning bidder might need this info!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
unsubscribe me
----- Original Message -----
From: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 7:26 AM
Subject: EV digest 5157
EV Digest 5157
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) DC shunt motor on eBay
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) RE: Regen settings, was Re: E-Volks Geo Metro Conversion
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Killacycle nearly in the top 10
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Tour de Sol Press Release
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Ranger question (for future reference)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) uhvm plastic
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Where to buy KiloVac Contactors?
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) horsepower
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Killacycle nearly in the top 10
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: horsepower
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: horsepower
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: horsepower
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Hawker charging profiles (was Re: Regen settings)
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: DC shunt motor on eBay
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: horsepower
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Tour de Sol Press Release, an' Stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Where to buy KiloVac Contactors?
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Killacycle nearly in the top 10
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Since I have yet to find any readily-available 8Vs (Delphi or otherwise),
> somewhere in the foreseeable future I will have to replace my Ranger's pack
> with more common 12Vs (possibly the Universal Batteries Cor van de Water has
> in
> an GM E-10 - I await future reports on this). The Ford system cannot function
> without the BCM getting all the proper data, so I had considered 2 cheats:
>
> a.) 3 8V BCMs in series reads each battery pair, or
> b.) Each BCM monitors a small (2-3Ah) 8V battery, all of which are only
> connected to the traction pack as a complete string.
>
> The first choice is probably too simple for these kind of electronics, the
> second leaves individual monitoring up to me (but even a few of Lee Hart's
> balance monitoring LEDs may be enough for that). The price of replacing the
> BCMs would probably be much more than the ~$3K for a pack of UB121100, so
> there
> is an economic reason for all this.
There's a third option. You can tap the pack every 8v, even if it is
built with 12v batteries. It's not hard to drill a hole in the right
spot, and run a stainless steel screw into the inter-cell jumper. This
gives you an external connection right down to the individual cell
level.
Obviously, finding "the right spot" involves some detective work. To
locate the jumpers, you can a) cut open a defective battery to see where
they are, b) look at a "demo" or "cutaway" battery at the dealer, c) get
it x-rayed so you can see the jumpers, or d) or drill some experimental
holes.
Be sure to plug and seal all holes thoroughly! Acid can leak, and sealed
batteries often pressurize the case. When I have done this, I drill the
hole, pump silicone rubber into the hole, then drive a high quality
stainless steel screw into the hole. It threads into the lead inter-cell
jumper, and the silicone rubber surrounds it to keep acid from leaking
or corroding the connection.
ones you don't need). so you can see where the jumpers are.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
mike golub wrote:
>
> Is it OK to use uhvm plastic for motor mounts or
> brackets?
Possibly; you'd have to do some structural analysis. How strong is the
exising metal mount; and how much plastic would it take to provide the
same strength? The electric motor is lighter, and produces less
vibration, and lacks the risk of solvents (gasoline, oil, antifreeze),
so the right plastic just might work!
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden writes:
> :
> All well and good, but why are road EVs banned from
> the TdS publicity? Not allowed on the tour, only around town? Are the
> Tour's directors ashamed of EVs or something? Afraid of their roots?
> :
Well, it started as purely solar-powered cars. Times changed, the Tour
changed. The current buzz is hybrids and that is what brings the public out.
But they also crowd around the solar and battery electric cars. And the
Autocross is soooooo quiet when they are on the coarse.
So if you want the Tour de Sol to be about pure EVs, bring some pure EVs to the
Tour de Sol and join the crowd! Last year's battery and solar EVs were:
BATTERY ELECTRIC VEHICLES (BEV)
Student Teams
Methacton Electric Car Club - #45 - The Lorax
1st Place in Category
6th Place - Low Climate Change Emissions (63% reduction)*
2nd Place - Fuel Economy (120 MPG)
7th Place - Hill Climb (14 seconds)
7th Place - Acceleration (12 seconds)
Burlington County Electechs - #16 - The Olympian
2nd Place in Category
8th Place - Low Climate Change Emissions (55% reduction)*
4th Place - Fuel Economy (98 MPG)
6th Place - Hill Climb (14 seconds)
5th Place - Autocross (42 seconds)
6th Place - Acceleration ( 12 seconds)
North Haven Community School - #53 - Revolution Ride
3rd Place in Category
11th Place - Low Climate Change Emissions (0% reduction)*
11th Place - Fuel Economy (45 MPG)
6th Place - Range (21 Miles)
7th Place - Autocross (44 seconds)
12 Place - Acceleration (17 seconds)
RENEWABILITY AWARD - RECHARGE FROM SOLAR PANELS AT SCHOOL
SOLAR-ASSISTED ELECTRIC VEHICLES
Two-Person Student Teams
St. Mark's Electric Vehicle Club - #56 - Woodstock
1st Place in Category
9th Place - Low Climate Change Emissions (51% reduction)*
5th Place - Fuel Economy (90 MPG)
1st Place - Range (66 Miles)
8th Place - Hill Climb (17 seconds)
9th Place - Autocross (47 seconds)
2nd Place - Acceleration (14 seconds)
RENEWABILITY AWARD - RECHARGE FROM RENEWABLY PRODUCED ELECTRICITY -
GREEN TAGS
One-person Student Teams
Cato-Meridian HS Technology Team - #92 - Sunpacer
1st Place in Category
3rd Place - Low Climate Change Emissions (66% reduction)* 141
1st Place - Fuel Economy (132 MPG)
5th Place - Range (26 Miles)
8th Place - Hill Climb (19 seconds)
11th Place - Acceleration (16 seconds)
1st Place - Most solar miles traveled (7.6 miles)
IHS Solar Car Team - #7 - Zodiac
2nd Place in Category
7th Place - Low Climate Change Emissions (59% reduction)*
3rd Place - Fuel Economy (108 MPG)
4th Place - Range (34 Miles)
10th Place - Hill Climb (22 seconds)
10th Place - Acceleration (15 seconds)
3rd Place - Most solar miles traveled (2.4 miles)
http://www.nesea.org/transportation/tour/2005Championship_Awards.php
--
Mike Bianchi
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was thinking that I should make this issue a little clearer for folks on
the list not familiar with the two entirely different motorcycles. The
original Killacycle was based on a production Kawasaki motorcycle, i.e.
stock frame and front forks. The Megacycle now renamed the Killacycle II is
a ground up purpose built pro race chassis with a body to fit. It also has
different wheels and suspension. Bill took the two motors out of the
Killacycle after the woman driver almost lost her life on it going down at
from what I remember was around 120 mph. That is all the similarity that
exists. The new bike has never, and I repeat NEVER run times anywhere near
the times of the old Kawasaki. It is totally dishonest to state that the new
bike ran these times which he does on his website at www.killacycle.com and
on the Drag Times site at www.dragtimes.com. This behavior discredits NEDRA
and the sport of EV drag racing and should not be tolerated by anyone who
truly believes in EVs and this sport.
Roderick Wilde
former NEDRA President
----- Original Message -----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: Killacycle nearly in the top 10
The White Zombie has a completely different drive package than it did when
it started racing. It is still the White Zombie
The KillaCycle has the SAME drive package as it did the first day it
raced. Components have been upgraded, the body has changed a few times,
the frame has been redone, I played with a different name for awhile, but
it is still the KillaCycle.
Race vehicles evolve. It is their nature. Would we have it any other way?
Bill Dube'
At 02:43 AM 2/6/2006, you wrote:
Howdy Folks
I went to the Dragtimes.com site intending to vote for the Killacycle in
addition to voting for the other three EVs there.
I found the Killacycle page at Dragtimes somewhat confusing as it didn't
show a photo of the bike which actually set the record back in 2000, but
the bike which was called the "Megacycle" then apparently re-named the
"Killacycle II". I looked a little closer and noticed another discrepancy
in the description of the bike. It mentions having a Zilla 2K, which was
unavailable when the record was set.
Anyway... I went to the Killacycle.com site to verify that I was not
mistaken. It was then that what may have been seen as simple mistakes seem
to take on the look of re-writing history :-0
The site has gone thru a complete redesign and most of the content
including all references to the original Killacycle (with the exception of
a few dozen mixed photos) has been removed.
On the main page it shows the "Killacycle II" (formerly known as the
Megacycle) and it is represented as being the record holder.
This is what it says-
"The Killacycle II-The World's Quickest Electric Motorcycle
1/4 mile drag-9.450 seconds @ 152.07 mph"
Well... I may have been born at night, but not last night.
This "fact sheet" attributes the record to the bike described as the
"Killacycle II", which is not the record holder-
http://www.killacycle.com/pages/factsheet.html
This page actually mixes the specs up between the two machines (Zilla 2K
with TMF batteries, both not used at the same time or on the same bike
AFAIK)-
http://www.killacycle.com/pages/specs_page.html
This page has a plea for TMF batteries-
http://www.killacycle.com/pages/new_page.html
Then here is the (new?) TMF battery pack?-
http://www.killacycle.com/pages/p_pages/p_batterypack.html
I know for a fact that the "Killacycle II" never even came close to a
record and not only popped those SVR-14 batteries from the start, it also
had severe handling problems (I can vouch for that because I was standing
directly behind the bleach box when the bike ran at Woodburn '02 and
watched it run repeatedly, it would torque severely to the left with the
power cranked up and the rider would have to back off).
I found the first mention of the 9.450 @ 152.07 run (10/8/00) here-
http://web.archive.org/web/20001008185623/http://www.killacycle.com/
Lots of photos of the "new world record holder" (the original Killacycle)
here-
http://web.archive.org/web/20010417000006/www.killacycle.com/pictures.html
Here is the build page for the Megacycle (now known as the "Killacycle
II", not the record-holding bike)-
http://web.archive.org/web/20021209054851/killacycle.com/MegaCycle.htm
I didn't vote for the Killacycle and won't be voting for it due to this
(mystery to me as to why) misrepresentation.
Maybe Bill can explain this.
I don't get it unless it's a play for sponsors.
The original bike and it's record speak for themselves. Why would you need
to misrepresent it?
...
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 13:34:52 -0800, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Maybe. The old switch controllers were a slate panel, with brass bolts
>for contacts. Each bolt had a silver dime-size piece of metal brazed to
>it. These contacts were bridged by a sliding contact that rotated over
>them with a big arm. Pretty crude, simple, and robust!
>
>I would avoid using fiberglass, as it burns!
I've been thinking about contact controllers. For a zillion years,
drum-type contact controllers were used to control multi-hundred HP
motors in industry. It seems to me like a small contact controller
hooked to the accelerator pedal would fit nicely in an EV.
For broadband users, here is a fascinating video that shows a closeup
of a drum controller at about 10:12 into the flic. Unfortunately the
Quicktime server is down so the smallest file available is 100mb.
This is a fascinating film made immediately post-war to inform
returning GIs about opportunities in the electrical field. Many
electrician trade schools sprung up to serve these GIs. Several
scenes in this film are shot at trade schools. The Coyne Electrical
Institute of Chicago was one of the best. If you ever find a set of
encyclopedias from this school, grab 'em. A wealth of knowledge and
very interesting photos.
I don't know if drum controllers are even made anymore but one would
be simple to make for anyone with a lathe or access to one. The old
ones used pressed asbestos for the dielectric parts. Unfortunately
not available anymore but the red electrical fiberglass material will
work just as well.
A drum controller could potentially provide very smooth control with
little complication and almost nothing to go wrong. One of you types
who is chomping at the bits to make and sell something to the
community ought to jump on this and run with it. A whole drum
controller could probably be built and sold for the cost of only a
couple of high capacity contactors.
While we're on this site, go here to see a large open frame DC
generator being tested in a Westinghouse plant in 1904:
http://www.open-video.org/details.php?videoid=4719
This is a slow speed machine, probably not more than couple hundred
RPM. Dozens of poles and brush sets. This was before interpoles so
the generator is equipped with a brush shifter. The entire brush
mechanism is mounted on bearings. The handwheel on the long shaft
sticking up diagonally to the immediate right of the pillow block is
the shifter. The operator had to manually shift the brushes according
to load. In two different places a technician can be seen applying
brush seating compound to the commutator. Now it's done with a stick,
as we've discussed here earlier.
This is another fascinating film in the series:
http://www.open-video.org/details.php?videoid=4601
Assembling one of those large generators. All the parts can be
clearly seen.
There are about 13 films in the "Westinghouse works" series on that
site. Search for that term and get 'em all if you can. All have to
do with building large generators and motors. The shop floor scenes
makes one really appreciate the modern workplace!!
All of these are large files. If you don't have broadband, I highly
recommend NetTransport, a do-all file transfer utility. It can
capture anything that emits from a server. Streaming or otherwise, it
doesn't matter. For dialup users, it will keep pounding away despite
interruptions for as long as it takes. I HAVE downloaded 100mb files
over dialup with NetTransport, though it took days of nighttime
running. IMHO, if you're interested in motors, these videos are worth
it.
I have all of 'em in my archives. If there's enough interest, I might
be persuaded to transcode these to smaller formats - once I figure out
how.
John
http://www.open-video.org/details.php?videoid=3754 10:12
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Might I recommend virtualdub? http://www.virtualdub.org/
-Mike
On 2/8/06, Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I have all of 'em in my archives. If there's enough interest, I might
> be persuaded to transcode these to smaller formats - once I figure out
> how.
>
> John
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
mike golub wrote:
>
> Is it OK to use uhvm plastic for motor mounts or
> brackets?
What is uhvm plastic? Did you mean UHMW plastic?
If so, then I don't think it would be suitable for making motor mounts.
UHMW will deform under pressure. In fact it will gradually deform under
it's own weight if not supported properly.
It seems to me that if you are using this to support a motor, then the
weight of the motor will cause it to deform and ruin your alignment.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Umm....huh?
Power = Torque * RPM
Period.
HP = Torque(ft/lbs) * RPM / 5252
The RPM rating on motors has NOTHING to do with whether they are ICE or
electric. RPM rating has to do with how the motors are built and the
point where they enter self destruct mode. Either can be built to operate
at arbitrarily high RPMs.
FWIW ADC series wound motors (the most commonly used in conversions) have
about the same maximum RPM as most gasoline ICEs and a higher max than
most deisel ICEs.
FInally, "Series wound" electric motors (and some other types) generate
relatively high torque at low RPMs. However, high efficiency PMDC motors
(and some other types) generally have a flat torque response over their
usable RPM range, i.e. "x" amps generates "y" torque across the band.
> Another formula is:
>
> Power = torque * RPM * (1min/60sec) * 2 * pi
>
> Power is generally low at low RPMs because the rate at which the force
> (rotational work) is applied is low. Electric motors generate lots of
> torque at low RPMs, whereas ICE generate most of their torque at higher
> RPMS, thus have a higher RPM rating.
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of mike golub
> Sent: February 8, 2006 1:48 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: horsepower
>
> Are there any other considerations when computing horsepower of an
> electric
> DC motor?
>
> So if I have 120 vdc , and I am pulling 200amps of 9"
> war P
>
> that would be 120*200=24000 watts
>
> HP=24000/746=32.2
>
> I can see that it changes, but I was wondering when you compare it to an
> ICE...it doesn't work.
>
> Perhaps the ICE uses some of its HP to do other things besides moving the
> car?
>
> Mike
> Fairbanks, AK
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8 Feb 2006 at 11:24, M Bianchi wrote:
> So if you want the Tour de Sol to be about pure EVs, bring some pure EVs to
> the
> Tour de Sol and join the crowd!
This is what I'm concerned about. It happens this way every year now. The
TdS puts out publicity that essentially omits mention of battery EVs. Then
when some of us wonder what the deal is, they (or you, Michael) backpedal
and say "Well, sure, of course you're welcome. Come on down."
All very friendly, but only those familiar with the TdS's EV past will
inquire about the omission. If you don't invite new road EVers (and the
publicity DOES NOT), pure EV participation is going to be limited to those
who've participated before and those who know about the TdS's history. Pure
EV participation will surely decline, year by year.
It's like when you call a friend and he lets slip that he's getting ready
for a dinner party to which you weren't invited. Oops, of COURSE you're
invited! The invitation must have been lost in the mail.
Yeah, right.
If TdS wants road EVs, it will invite them. It can't hurt them to mention
road EVs in their publicity, right there where they mention bikes and NEVs,
but they pointedly do not. That to me says it all.
This isn't much different from GM building a good EV and then telling
consumers that they didn't really want it. I don't blame you personally,
Michael, but I really don't think the TdS is acting in good faith here.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Thanks. I have it but I haven't figured out how to do much with it.
Video editing isn't one of my "things", just something I need to do
now. Guess I need to study more.
John
On Wed, 8 Feb 2006 11:40:57 -0600, Mike Ellis
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Might I recommend virtualdub? http://www.virtualdub.org/
>
>-Mike
>
>
>On 2/8/06, Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> I have all of 'em in my archives. If there's enough interest, I might
>> be persuaded to transcode these to smaller formats - once I figure out
>> how.
>>
>> John
>>
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Cor van de Water wrote:
> there is a difference between [classic EV conversions] and the
> EV'ers that have a daily driver that needs to be reliable, very
> maintainable (preferably by the shop around the corner) and on
> a limited budget.
Modern cars aren't really built to be repaired. The assumption is that
most parts will *never* break in the life of the vehicle. When parts do
break, only the dealer will be able/qualified to fix it. There is very
little that the average self-taught backyard mechanic can do with these
cars. They are becoming a "black box" technology (i.e. the owner cannot
see how they work, and cannot fix them himself).
You can convert such a car into an EV; but it is a complex enterprise.
The EV parts aren't the problem. But you will need special tools,
special skills, and a lot more information to deal with the rest of the
car. The heating, cooling, lights, air bags, transmission, antilock
brakes, power steering, insturmentation, entertainment, and a myriad of
other systems are all tightly integrated. Changing one piece (like
removing the engine) disturbs all the rest in unpredictable ways. Also,
some of the materials used and construction techniques have been highly
optimized for mass production and crashworthiness. Clumsy modifications
could seriously compromise the strength and safety of the car.
So, converting a new car is a high-tech enterprise. Someone who is
determined, highly skilled and very detail-oriented will have had to
convert one first, and document it. They will have to figure out what
wires to cut and splice, and what "black boxes" to add to keep all the
rest of the systems working (air bags, speedometer, air conditioner,
antilock brakes, etc.). They have to decide what can be removed, and
what must stay; where you can drill holes to mount parts, and the places
to avoid.
If you want good end results, you should expect to pay for this
information. It is a lot of work, and good data is expensive. Since a
new vehicle itself is also expensive, you will wind up with an expensive
conversion. Frankly, from what I have seen, very few people go this
route.
But if you go back 20+years, cars were built with a different mindset.
They were a lot simpler, and a lot less reliable. Things broke more
often, so they needed to be fixed more often. The construction was
simpler, as it frequently had to be repaired by relatively unskilled
mechanics with only common tools. In the extreme, you had cars like the
old VW Beetle; a high school kid could fix almost anything in his
driveway with a screwdriver and a 9/16" wrench.
If you're working on a budget, and don't have a lot of skill, converting
one of these older cars makes a lot of sense. They don't have antilock
brakes, air bags, or computer controlled everything, so there are no
problems "interfacing" to these systems. Replacing the ICE with an
electric motor has essentially no effect on the rest of the car. So, the
EV conversion will be a lot cheaper, and get done a lot faster.
Of course, you get what you pay for. If you started with a rusty
30-year-old ICE pickup, you end up with a rusty 30-year-old EV pickup.
Even if you find one in great shape, or spend a lot of time on restoring
it to perfection, it's still a 30-year-old car. It won't have the
safety, reliability, advance technology, or styling of a new car.
But there's one more factor. If you drive an EV, then *you* will most
likely have to fix and maintain it! Nobody else knows enough to do it
for you. You can still get tires, a brake job, or other minor repairs
done at the corner garage, but as soon as "that 'lectric stuff" is
involved, the mechanics will hide. Even for the Toyota and Honda
hybrids, their dealers are often stumbling incompetents when it comes to
servicing the hybrid systems.
Since I know I have to maintain the car myself, then I would *far*
rather fix and maintain a 30-year-old car than ANY new car! Any kind of
servicing I can imagine is easier on these older cars.
I agree that parts are a problem. Some old cars are orphans; getting
parts for them is like finding hen's teeth (my 1980 Renault LeCar is in
this category). But, check into it -- sometimes you may be pleasantly
surprised. Some marques have an extensive and loyal following among car
nuts, so good used, remanufactured, and NOS parts are readily available
if you know where to look. For example, parts for my 1965 Corvair are
widely available and quite inexpensive.
> I know people that have their car spending more time in the body
> shop than that they are driving it. That is just not my type of car.
Me neither. I only have a car to drive it. I think of cars as
transportation; not art objects.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Hi Chris,
Thanks for all the data, but you left one other hole in the
charge profile:
What happens between 2 and 1.5A?
You say you keep the 25 battery strings at 350V (14V per battery)
until current tapers down to 2A,
then take them up to 370V (14.8V per battery) at 1.5A, but the
transition from 2A to 1.5A is that still at 350V, so you wait
until it tapers down to 1.5A or do you start to take the
batteries up at 2A which tapers down while you increase the voltage?
I agree that our daily driving and long strings give entirely
different usage of the batteries than the manufacturer is common
to see in other applications.
I think his recommendation is for low voltage UPS type application
where the battery is sitting in float charge most its life.
(As you may be aware, I do not have Hawkers, but Universal Batteries
AGMs - same chemistry, same recommended voltages but different
target market and different manufacturer, also different capacity)
Do you have recommendation for a charger that can do this profile
and reach 385V (I have 26 batteries) and will not self-destruct
if a short peak voltage of slightly over 400V occurs during regen?
Do I need to build my own charger? Ideas/plans?
Preferably both 120V and 240V at 15A input capable,
output 10A is nice but I can live with 5A into the batteries.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 5:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Hawker charging profiles (was Re: Regen settings)
> So do you wait until the current drops to 3 or to 2 Amps?
> What do you do when the voltage hits 375V?
Ok, I looked it up on my screen shots. The profile I use is as follows
(with my Magnecharger CC200 system)
1) Charge pack at 12 amp rate (I use 12 now since most of my runs are
short, could do 18 amps if I was really deep-discharging) constant
current till voltage hits 350 volts, or timer hits 3 hours.
This is the bulk charge to get things up to speed quickly. Typically I
will get most of the pack charged using this. The timer is to keep the
pack from overcharging somehow, as I rarely draw 36ah from the pack at
this stage.
2) Hold at 350 volts constant voltage till the current drops to 2 amps.
This allows the batteries to "catch up" and fill as the voltage is held
constant and the current is reduced. The focus is on gentle with the
batteries as they get more full to keep them from gassing and slipping
out of sync.
3) Charge at 1.5 amps till voltage hits 370 volts.
This allows a nice slow ramp-up to 370 volts (14.8 volts per battery).
Batteries that might overshoot usually don't because the current is low,
batteries that are still low seem to suck up the current. Also any
battery that might gas is below the recombiner threshold, so they tend
not to vent.
In a very real way, I'm using the AGM's recombiners as a .75 amp
clamper. So far I have not seen the evidence of drying out batteries,
which is they have extremely low resistance but very limited capacity.
4) Hold at 370 volts for 10 minutes.
This just brings the rest of the batteries in line. Charge current
continues to drop at this point.
Terminate.
Every 20 or so charges I use the Dolphin's stupid charger (constant
voltage to 390 volts, 2.5 amps ramping down to 1a @390) to peak off the
pack. Usually it takes a full pack from 370 volts to 390 volts in 10
minutes or less. So no real equalization seems to be needed. Also using
a CEF of 98% on the E-meter I typically result in a charge level of .0
to .1ah at the end of a charge and maybe .2 after a charge and top off
using the Dolphin. If the batteries were floating out of sync, I would
expect to see a larger number when doing the equalize.
As for the high current needs, when I hit the brake pedal the pack gets
hit with up to 100 amps of current for 10-15 second bursts. This I hope
is what will satisfy the "brief, high inrush current" that Hawkers like.
Also to note is I have a set of nine temp sensors in the pack, attached
to the positive terminals on select batteries. My normal setting is to
abort charge if over 35 degrees C on any sensor. This means on hot days
(>90-95 degrees) I either need to let the car rest after a hard run or I
just charge using the Dolphin. Or I charge at night. I could bump this
to 40, but the higher the battery temp, the more likely to gas.
> Do you have the original spec Hawkers in 2 strings or are
> you running other batteries like I am?
Two strings, 25 batteries per string. They seem to stay in balance so far.
> How do you take care that the current is balanced between
> the two strings?
I don't. My hope is that the weaker string will pull more current and
keep things in line. So far it seems to work.
> I think the current should be proportional to the battery
> right, so my 110Ah pack could run 3 Amp iso 2?
Yes, I suppose so. Part of the reason I hold at 1.5a instead of 2 is
because 1.5a is still under the threshold of the recombiners, so if one
string somehow takes 99% of the charge current, the batteries will still
not vent. If I went to 3a on the float-up, I might gas a string.
>
> Your profile is the opposite of what the manufacturer
> recommends for these batteries - they say to charge it
> with max 40A until it hits 14.6 - 14.8V (my guess is that
> the lower voltage is for higher temps) then keep it at
> constant voltage until current drops to 3A and then
> drop the voltage to 13.6 - 13.8V for continuous float charge.
*nod* You are correct, this is not the manufacturer specs. I did the
manufacturer's specs a few years back and dried out a pack in 6 months.
I think the problem with this is that the manufacturer doesn't take into
account the issues with long strings. One battery reaches 14.7 a bit
before the others. Not a problem if you're pumping 2a into the string,
but if you're pumping 40a into the string then that battery is going to
overshoot 15 volts, and gas like heck because um... it has 40a running
thru it. This will result in less water in the battery which will mean
it will hit "full" faster next charge. Repeat, and you have a dried out
battery. If you're just charging one battery you can see that happen,
but in a long string that 16-17 volts will be missed in the average of
the other 24 batteries.
If you back off your charge at 14 volts per battery, then the ones that
might be a bit more full get whacked with less current. They will still
create gas inside themselves, but more slowly. If they gas below the
rate of the recombiners then they don't vent.
> And yes, this is the Wavedriver controller.
> There are some drawbacks to the SW it is running, besides
> not having a full set of documentation so I may miss some
> of its possibilities, but I have found that it can be
> programmed with a profile (array of values) for breaking,
> but seems not to have a neat voltage back-off, whenever
> it hits a limit it will simply completely cut out.
> (So, you are left without regen brakes instead of reduced
> brake force when the brake is pushed and the voltage
> limit is reached, I need to re-apply the brake to get
> regen back.)
Very cool. We're still working on the Dolphin programming to play with
stuff like this. I have an electric S10 coming in a few days, then I get
to figure out how to repair a Dolphin with a ground fault, broken
computer, and a power supply module with a burn hole in it. Should be
educational.
> Now I need to check balancing and alignment of the wheels
> to get rid of the vibration around 55 MPH, not present at
> lower speeds or between 60 - 72MPH.
> (72 MPH is the redline of the motor at 9000 RPM and the
> controller will noticeable reduce power when that line
> is crossed)
That sounds like a flat spot in the tires, no doubt. I remember that in
my 914 when it was parked for a few years. New tires fix it.
Also interesting about the redline; I can take the Prizm over 80mph
without issues. My guess is the gearing on the truck is lower than the
Prizm because it's bigger and all. Still 70mph is enough to keep up on
the highways around here.
God, I love an electric that can haul along at 80mph on the highways. :-)
Chris
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On Wed, February 8, 2006 9:22 am, Neon John said:
> I haven't followed this thread but I did see this bit about welding.
> Being a graduate of TVA's nuclear welding school, maybe I can add
> something.
>
> First off, pure tungsten is used for aluminum.
I'm far too ignorant to have an informed opinion on this; I've only used
one dopant (lanthana) and I've been very happy with its performance on
steel without anything to compare it to. However for the record, the
following sources disagree to some extent on pure tungsten, or indicate
that there are better alternatives:
Diamond Ground (who probably want to sell more expensive electrodes):
http://www.diamondground.com/gb2a.html
Miller: (see "Why would I use Ceriated or Thoriated tungsten instead of
Pure?")
http://www.millerwelds.com/education/tech_tips/TIG_tips/hints_tips.html
Lincoln: (suggests ceriated, lanthanated)
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/content/alum2.asp
Sources that agree:
Lincoln: (different page, with remark about current capacity)
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/content/alumfaq.asp#question4
Sylvania: (with remark about "less critical operations", "low cost")
http://www.okibering.com/pdfs/catalog/SYL.pdf
> Thoriated tungsten is
> used for steel and other metals that use DC. Those other additives
> are in response to radiophobia over the tiny bit of radioactivity that
> thorium imparts. They are IMHO, vastly inferior to thorium.
It appears to be widely accepted that thorium electrodes are harmless in
exterior contact. The danger is primarily with inhaling the dust from
grinding, which people really shouldn't be doing without an enclosed
electrode grinder anyway (to avoid contamination from a normal grinding
wheel). I use a chemical sharpener
(http://www.weldersource.com/chemsharp.html) so thoriated electrodes
wouldn't be a problem for me in that respect either. There's some mention
about exposure due to welding vapors, but this seems to be less serious a
problem, especially since thoriated electrodes are so durable. Food
contamination is mentioned here and there, but it doesn't seem like most
people care about it (wash hands before eating, etc).
One document I found on the topic:
http://www.pro-fusiononline.com/tungsten/radioactivity.htm
> Preheating aluminum will help keep it from warping. Not strictly
> necessary with the thin section metal I saw on your motor but not a
> bad idea. I don't know where that idea about acetylene came from.
Miller: (see "Aluminum Preparation" 2nd paragraph)
http://www.millerwelds.com/education/articles/articles37.html
Aufhauser claims it's unnecessary:
http://www.brazing.com/techguide/procedures/allumimum.asp
> That said, I'd not even consider trying to hang that motor by the end
> bells. I can just imagine the dynamic stresses acting on the bearings
> with the vehicle underway and 400 lbs of pendulum bobbing around.
> Second, you're almost surely going to distort the aluminum by welding
> to it, preheat or not. Normally such work would be done before the
> final machining. Not possible here.
Since yesterday I've read in various places that aluminum welds rarely
result in strength equal to the base metal; the joint is almost always
weaker. Normally I wouldn't care, but in this case where strength is so
critical I am growing less interested in this idea. Welded aluminum might
still be feasible, but in some other way. Maybe a separate bolt-on mount
where I've got a more advantageous structural arrangement and large joint
area. Something I won't be sick about if I screw up during fabrication.
> Something else to think about. If that is a heat treated alloy such
> as 6061T6, welding it will remove the heat treat and render it quite
> soft. Not as soft as pure aluminum by any means but not nearly as
> strong as the original material. What effect that might have on your
I agree. If it's 6061T6, I'd have to heat treat afterward to restore the
original part's strength, and that would put it out of my reach. Another
good reason to consider alternative methods.
> If you really must hang that motor by the ends, I suggest making up a
> pair of half moon cradles that fit under the motor with end pieces
> that come up the face a bit where they can be bolted to the face. This
> can be aluminum if you wish. You may also drill and tap the frame for
> further attachment points.
This sounds like a good idea. I'm trying to make a cad drawing of the
motor, frame and cabin floor pan so I can play around with different
ideas. This will be in my list of ideas to investigate. I'll have to make
cutouts in such cradles to avoid the vents, but that doesn't sound too
difficult.
> Re: welder derating. You won't be facing that issue with the amount
> of welding you propose. Derating only comes into effect at higher
> currents and then is proportional to the current.
This is where I am really ignorant. I don't have an accurate idea of how
much average current is necessary while welding a given thickness of
aluminum. I know it's more than steel, but I don't know by how much. I'm
sure there are tables out there and I really should start studying that
stuff. I'd hope that my welder would be capable of giving enough current
for long enough not to be annoying, but then that isn't really a
challenge, since I doubt I'd be wanting to go very fast anyway.
> I very much like the new breed of inverter welders. My next one will
> be inverter-based. For non-professional welders, I particularly like
> the pulse feature that goes by various names. This feature
> periodically varies the welding current in duplication of what a pro
> welder does. Low current to drop in filler, high current to burn it
One of the features I haven't learned how to use :o) The 185TSW offers
controllable pulsing, including pulse width (15-80%) and frequency (.5 -
500Hz). AC squarewave frequency adjusts from 15-150Hz. The pulse frequency
doesn't sound as slow as what you're referring to, but I've read from a
few sources that the higher frequency pulse is good for easily welding
sheet metal without burning through.
Parameter specs on p.28
http://www.thermadyne.com/uplFiles/litLibrary/thermalarc%5C430429_503.pdf
Thanks to the great input from the list (public and private) and just the
opportunity to discuss it with folks and think out loud for a while, I'm
now leaning more toward some kind of frame or brackets bolted into the
sides of the motor. Easier and less risky to fabricate, and I can more
easily overengineer the structure somewhat to make up for my limited
welding confidence. I'd like it to be aluminum, but at least this way it
doesn't have to be.
--chris
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