EV Digest 5159
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: horsepower
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Ranger question (for future reference)
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: horsepower
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re:200 amps from 16 amps.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Where to buy KiloVac Contactors?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Aircraft Gen. Motor WAS Re: E-Volks Geo Metro Conversion
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Tango Naysayers
by Dave Stensland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Heatsink sought for Curtis 1221c
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Ranger question (for future reference)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Where to buy KiloVac Contactors?
by "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Tango Naysayers
by Joel Shellman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Tango Naysayers
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Killacycle nearly in the top 10
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Tango Naysayers
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Killacycle nearly in the top 10
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Tour de Sol Press Release
by Brian Cole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Killacycle nearly in the top 10
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Killacycle nearly in the top 10
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Killacycle nearly in the top 10
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) 56 vw ev and Zap!
by Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Motor mounting: Welding, structural questions
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Umm you've left out part of the formula
HP = torque(ft/lbs) * RPM / 5252
33,000 /(2*pi) = 5252
So 5252ft/lbs @ 1 rpm = 1hp
>
> Or the formula from James Watt.
> HP = 33,000ft.lbs. / minute
>
> Watt first used 32,580 but it was rounded off at some point.
>
> In a piston engine, ice or steam, this would be the average pressure in
> the
> cylinder acting on the area of the piston for the length of the stroke for
> the number of power strokes made in a minute.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower
>
> __________
> Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 10:29:28 -0800, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Obviously, finding "the right spot" involves some detective work. To
>locate the jumpers, you can a) cut open a defective battery to see where
>they are, b) look at a "demo" or "cutaway" battery at the dealer, c) get
>it x-rayed so you can see the jumpers, or d) or drill some experimental
>holes.
I suggest the X-ray option. I have a fluoroscope so I have no hassles
doing this kind of thing. Before I got my 'scope, I was able to talk
my doc into occasionally shooting objects. The biggest problem
usually is, "I don't know how to set the exposure". Suggest he do two
shots at the "Thorax" setting, as for a chest X-ray. Maybe bump the
exposure up 20-30% if you want actual details instead of just the
shadow of the interconnects. The lead plates provide lots of
shielding but the interconnects will be visible as light shadows.
If you can get to a fluoroscope, you can mark the actual location.
Take a Sharpie and wrap some solder around the end to provide X-ray
contrast. Bring the end of the solder right down to the end of tip.
Wearing X-ray (lead) gloves which he'll have on hand, outline the bars
on the case with the Sharpie while watching the fluoroscope. The
sharpie will look like a pointer on the screen.
John
>
>Be sure to plug and seal all holes thoroughly! Acid can leak, and sealed
>batteries often pressurize the case. When I have done this, I drill the
>hole, pump silicone rubber into the hole, then drive a high quality
>stainless steel screw into the hole. It threads into the lead inter-cell
>jumper, and the silicone rubber surrounds it to keep acid from leaking
>or corroding the connection.
Even better is the 3M polyurethane marine caulk, the 5200 (or maybe
5600, can't recall without looking) version, I think. Available at
WallyWorld in the boating department. This stuff's adhesion is
something to behold, in contrast to RTV which debonds after awhile.
The cost is equivalent. I've almost quit using RTV since I discovered
this stuff. The only disadvantage is that there is some solvent
evaporation involved in the curing process so it doesn't cure
particularly fast in confined spaces. Not a problem here.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rats! (think before you send Pete)
Andre' I appologize. I was stuck thinking in vehicular terms and
rotational power, and you were of course talking about linear motion.
Your formula as stated was absolutely correct for linear motion.
Sorry for the unwarranted correction.
> Umm you've left out part of the formula
>
> HP = torque(ft/lbs) * RPM / 5252
> 33,000 /(2*pi) = 5252
>
> So 5252ft/lbs @ 1 rpm = 1hp
>
>>
>> Or the formula from James Watt.
>> HP = 33,000ft.lbs. / minute
>>
>> Watt first used 32,580 but it was rounded off at some point.
>>
>> In a piston engine, ice or steam, this would be the average pressure in
>> the
>> cylinder acting on the area of the piston for the length of the stroke
>> for
>> the number of power strokes made in a minute.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower
>>
>> __________
>> Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris and listers..
Yea 80 mph in 3rd or 4th gear??? Still love that speed with 'Trons pushing
instead of dynosaur Squeezings...
The hard part for me is to keep my Low Batt leds from locking on when I drop
my pack to 130 volts.
I have all the Mk2 Regs loaded with 500 MCD leds, Lighting them up at night
can scare the Crap out of ya..Red is supposed to get your attention, and it
does!
> God, I love an electric that can haul along at 80mph on the highways. :-)
>
> Chris
>
Nice profile... and succes without Regs, another plus to running batteries
where they should instead of where the Seller would like you to...
Speaking of seller....
A need of mine has become a new charger. I have been bringing Goldie's pack
back on line from a 2 month Wet spell, and the Fiero has batteries that are
...well to be polite 2nd hand lead. That's what you get when you buy
Seconds from the Battery plant. So.. I have duds and semi charged Orbitals
all over the place, and I have only a 3 amp voltage regualted supply from
the Regtester stand, and then I have a 300 amp 3 phase Stud rectifier pack
that runs off the main variac... and of course a shop full of PFC chargers,
but nothing that is just 12 volts with Snort. Using the 208 grid powered 75K
doing a single Orbital is like using a D6 Cat in your Rose garden! A bit too
much...
So I did a 1000 amp try at a welding supply in about June of '05, I got to
400 amps of 2 volts with a PFC20 and the Iso project's 50Khz inverter and
swticher.. and a trick Called current doubling. I wonder if I can resurect
the idea and get 400 amps of 12 volts. Hummmm Sounds of clanking and
screwing large inductors and Igbts together. And Voila.. It lives again.
The pile of Iron power cores and copper Statues is impressive. Polish this
stuff up and I could get a modern artform award. So... on to the testing.
First couple of runs and I am over the 75 amp limit the Windloader can
absorb. Geez that was easy... What next... the pile of .171 ohm 6kw
resistors waiting for me and 480 3 phase... can be robbed for this
effort.... Ok... got... 100 amp through that, with a bit of tweaking....
them two in parallel, that got to 150 amps at about 7 volts, then 3 in
parallel, and I get 182 amps at 10.37 volts. 1888 watts of 10 volts OK...
One of the data points was 86 amps at 14.7 volts with only one R in line...
So... I know I can source 182 amps on a 10 volt battery and still make 14.7v
and 86 amps. So Even at this stage.... I can stuff a single 12 volt battery
with over 100 amps for most of it's charge cycle. What makes this even
sweeter is.... I have yet to dial in 240 VAC on the front end PFC20. So this
is at 1/2 power.
Ok... Now you see the point... 200 to close to 400 amps from a 20 lbs
charger... Welll maybe 25 to 30lbs with all the extra stuffing of parts in a
small place.
One of the efficientcy runs got me a %87 number.... This is getting close to
what I get from just a PFC20 charger... and I have 2 conversions and Large
diode pack, clearly lots more place for losses.
Now for some voltage control and Amperage control loops. Ah.. more stuff to
figure out. But I can see 200 amp 12 volt chargers...Maybe even 350 from
240, or something in that range.
Clearly I will have some battery feedback...That kinda goes without saying
at this power level.
Anyone for a 2000 watt DC to dc converter???
Madman in the Lab...again for a change.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I welded a single EV-200 on a 144vdc pack. I wouldn't do it again. Much
safer are two Albrights. Butttttt......It you use two EV-200's that should
work. Lawrence Rhodes.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike & Paula Willmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 1:25 AM
Subject: RE: Where to buy KiloVac Contactors?
This LEV200 looks like a really good product. Tyco typically makes pretty
good commercial products (or buys companies that do). For the $75 Doug
Hartley has offered them for I may try one out (if he still has it
available). I'm mainly interestd because of the specifications. I bought
an Albright SW200 but am having second thoughts about using it. Its
contacts are only rated for 96VDC. Although many say its successfully
been
used at 156VDC. Would I be pushing it to use it on a 192V pack? Since I
will precharge I'm not so worried about welding it during closing. Should
I
worry about it welding if breaking full pack current at this far above the
rated contact voltage?
This Tyco/KiloVac unit LEV200 series claims an estimated cycle life at
270VDC of 100 breaks at 800A and 10,000 breaks at rated continuous current
of 200A. I hope to never have to break the pack at full current but its
good
to know there's an estimated 100 times I *could* do it.
What do you guys that run over 192V packs use for a main contactor? Do
you
series up lower voltage contacts?
Mike,
Anchorage, AK.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 6:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Where to buy KiloVac Contactors?
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Don't use this contactor above 120vdc. Lawrence Rhodes...
Why, if it's rated for 2,000 air at 300 volts DC? Add a 10,000 AIR DC
crash fuse on it and you should be ok, correct?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.hubbell-icd.com/icd/drum/drum4258.asp Is this what we are talking
about? Are they efficient? Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: Aircraft Gen. Motor WAS Re: E-Volks Geo Metro Conversion
On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 13:34:52 -0800, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Maybe. The old switch controllers were a slate panel, with brass bolts
for contacts. Each bolt had a silver dime-size piece of metal brazed to
it. These contacts were bridged by a sliding contact that rotated over
them with a big arm. Pretty crude, simple, and robust!
I would avoid using fiberglass, as it burns!
I've been thinking about contact controllers. For a zillion years,
drum-type contact controllers were used to control multi-hundred HP
motors in industry. It seems to me like a small contact controller
hooked to the accelerator pedal would fit nicely in an EV.
For broadband users, here is a fascinating video that shows a closeup
of a drum controller at about 10:12 into the flic. Unfortunately the
Quicktime server is down so the smallest file available is 100mb.
This is a fascinating film made immediately post-war to inform
returning GIs about opportunities in the electrical field. Many
electrician trade schools sprung up to serve these GIs. Several
scenes in this film are shot at trade schools. The Coyne Electrical
Institute of Chicago was one of the best. If you ever find a set of
encyclopedias from this school, grab 'em. A wealth of knowledge and
very interesting photos.
I don't know if drum controllers are even made anymore but one would
be simple to make for anyone with a lathe or access to one. The old
ones used pressed asbestos for the dielectric parts. Unfortunately
not available anymore but the red electrical fiberglass material will
work just as well.
A drum controller could potentially provide very smooth control with
little complication and almost nothing to go wrong. One of you types
who is chomping at the bits to make and sell something to the
community ought to jump on this and run with it. A whole drum
controller could probably be built and sold for the cost of only a
couple of high capacity contactors.
While we're on this site, go here to see a large open frame DC
generator being tested in a Westinghouse plant in 1904:
http://www.open-video.org/details.php?videoid=4719
This is a slow speed machine, probably not more than couple hundred
RPM. Dozens of poles and brush sets. This was before interpoles so
the generator is equipped with a brush shifter. The entire brush
mechanism is mounted on bearings. The handwheel on the long shaft
sticking up diagonally to the immediate right of the pillow block is
the shifter. The operator had to manually shift the brushes according
to load. In two different places a technician can be seen applying
brush seating compound to the commutator. Now it's done with a stick,
as we've discussed here earlier.
This is another fascinating film in the series:
http://www.open-video.org/details.php?videoid=4601
Assembling one of those large generators. All the parts can be
clearly seen.
There are about 13 films in the "Westinghouse works" series on that
site. Search for that term and get 'em all if you can. All have to
do with building large generators and motors. The shop floor scenes
makes one really appreciate the modern workplace!!
All of these are large files. If you don't have broadband, I highly
recommend NetTransport, a do-all file transfer utility. It can
capture anything that emits from a server. Streaming or otherwise, it
doesn't matter. For dialup users, it will keep pounding away despite
interruptions for as long as it takes. I HAVE downloaded 100mb files
over dialup with NetTransport, though it took days of nighttime
running. IMHO, if you're interested in motors, these videos are worth
it.
I have all of 'em in my archives. If there's enough interest, I might
be persuaded to transcode these to smaller formats - once I figure out
how.
John
http://www.open-video.org/details.php?videoid=3754 10:12
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo
Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey guys,
Here's another example of people trying to comprehend an EV...
http://blog.hypexr.org/?p=216
-Dave
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com
On Jan 24, 2006, at 5:51 PM, Roderick Wilde wrote:
Dave, Please, More, More! This is great and there were naysayers on
this list that said our little prom queen takeover of Drag Times
wouldn't do much of anything to effect Joe six pack. This is some fun
reading from down under.
Roderick Wilde
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> I know the equation a well as you do... You are missing the main
> variable; usage or actual loading. The rest don't mean squat unless
> you know how hard it's been pushed thermally.
The reliability equations tell us that heat, voltage, and current all
have their own stress factors. Temperature is easy; though the exact
factor varies depending on the type of part (transistor, capacitor,
etc.), life roughly halves for every 10 deg.C increase in temperature.
So, it makes a *lot* of sense to keep the temperature down!
Voltage and current stress are nonlinear, and related to each other.
With semiconductors, voltage doesn't shorten their life until you get
close to the rated breakdown voltage. For example a "100v" rated part
might last 100 years at 50v, 10 years at 100v, and 1 *second* at 150v!
In practical terms, this means if you are using a 144v rated controller
at 144v, you'd better keep it cool (or your 10-year life turns into 1
year)! And, you'd better not let it sit for long periods of time on the
charger at higher voltages (a 144v pack hits 180v at the end of a charge
cycle) or it could die in a hurry!
> What is important... is a old abused Curtis can run for years...
> and die when ever it chooses to. So can a brand new one.
Right. But temperature, voltage, etc. are stress factors that
considerably hasten the day when this will occur.
> I would put the heatsink on the old one and run it until it dies,
> and keep the low hour one until you need it.
Agreed. I thought you were suggesting that he *not* put the heatsink on
the old one, and just keep using it as-is until it dies.
> Curtii have that nice "thermos bottle" cooling design; once hot
> Stays hot!.
Yes; it's a poor thermal design. There's a lot of aluminum there, but
they did a bad job of using it. It does a poor job of getting the heat
from the MOSFETs to the case.
> And maybe the list should remember that I have run a few old beat
> up Curtis controllers for years... fixed... I got more miles...
> The fail mode is not dead caps, it's fried FETs, in gate drive
> failed on mode.
It's hard to tell the capacitors have failed, since they are more likely
to fail open. They look like they're there, but are doing nothing.
Without the capacitors, the voltage spikes on the MOSFETs are worse,
leading to their extinction. And you'll *know* when they fail!
> The fails I remember were water ingestion, shorted high volts
> to the pot control lines and abusive precharge... aka NONE.
> These fails don't have much to do with the basic design, they
> are foolish thing done to the controller by the user. Like most
> batteries, they are murdered, and rarely die of old age.
Well said! This advice should be well heeded by others using these (or
any other) controllers. There are lots of ways Murphy can help us kill
even the most robust controller.
> I have yet to see a Curtii with caps on fire. I have seen other
> controllers litterally light the Cap cases on fire.
The Curtis case is sealed, so I haven't been able to see the "event"
real time. But I have seen the insides after a capacitor or two have
burst and spewed their guts around inside (on top of the exploded bits
of MOSFET). My guess is that the capacitors failed first, then the
MOSFETs.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
Interesting way to void your warranty ;-)
Cowtown (don't know your real name),
Serious - if you want to allow your battery supplier to
honor their warranty if you have failing batteries while
you have not murdered them (they will look for obvious
signs like "fat" batteries from gassing over-charged
ones and for evidence of over-discharged batteries, then
you better not modify your batteries with additional holes.
If you do not care for warranty because either you have not
negotiated any with your supplier or because the shipping
will be way more money than your entire warranty claim, then
you can safely experiment with the batteries.
One other option if the battery management only monitors the
batteries with high resistance voltage sensing, then you
may consider adding 2/3 resistor taps across each battery
(2 resistors, one twice as large as the other, to give you
a reading of 2/3 and 1/3 of the total voltage or 8V and 4V,
put the taps so you have two times 4V next to each other,
so 3 BMS are monitoring 2 batteries at 8V, 4+4V and 8V)
This has a slight drawback that the tapped voltage is not
exactly representing 4 cells, but two of the BMS are actually
monitoring the two batteries, the one in the middle is seeing
the average of the two batteries.
This approach won't work if your BMS is _controlling_ the
voltage on your batteries (for balancing purposes) as the
resistors will not pass this balancing current to the batteries
and the voltage will not read correctly if the BMS is not a
high resistance input.
If you want to follow Lee's suggestion then you may want to
contact your battery supplier. I have found my supplier
(Universal Battery Group) very responsive in dealing with
technical questions, so you may be able to get a picture
of the internal cell connects from them to do this
"First time right" drilling.
If I murder my batteries then I will post info as soon as
I disect one battery, but I hope to have them in my
battery box for at least 2 or 3 years before going that
route, I have now done 550 miles in less than 3 weeks,
mainly with my daily 23 miles commute but I have done 46
miles on a single charge, mostly freeway miles. So I have
less than 50% DOD on most days, with the estimated 500 cycles
from Universal Battery this should give me at least 1000 half
cycles, resulting in close to 3 years of operation or more,
one (half)cycle almost every day.
Even if I get just half the life out of these batteries this
exercise did not cost me excessive money and it will still
take more than a year to see any reliable result.
Only if I am capable of murdering them prematurely, you will
get quick results...
Success any way you go,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 10:29 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Ranger question (for future reference)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Since I have yet to find any readily-available 8Vs (Delphi or otherwise),
> somewhere in the foreseeable future I will have to replace my Ranger's
pack
> with more common 12Vs (possibly the Universal Batteries Cor van de Water
has in
> an GM E-10 - I await future reports on this). The Ford system cannot
function
> without the BCM getting all the proper data, so I had considered 2 cheats:
>
> a.) 3 8V BCMs in series reads each battery pair, or
> b.) Each BCM monitors a small (2-3Ah) 8V battery, all of which are only
> connected to the traction pack as a complete string.
>
> The first choice is probably too simple for these kind of electronics, the
> second leaves individual monitoring up to me (but even a few of Lee Hart's
> balance monitoring LEDs may be enough for that). The price of replacing
the
> BCMs would probably be much more than the ~$3K for a pack of UB121100, so
there
> is an economic reason for all this.
There's a third option. You can tap the pack every 8v, even if it is
built with 12v batteries. It's not hard to drill a hole in the right
spot, and run a stainless steel screw into the inter-cell jumper. This
gives you an external connection right down to the individual cell
level.
Obviously, finding "the right spot" involves some detective work. To
locate the jumpers, you can a) cut open a defective battery to see where
they are, b) look at a "demo" or "cutaway" battery at the dealer, c) get
it x-rayed so you can see the jumpers, or d) or drill some experimental
holes.
Be sure to plug and seal all holes thoroughly! Acid can leak, and sealed
batteries often pressurize the case. When I have done this, I drill the
hole, pump silicone rubber into the hole, then drive a high quality
stainless steel screw into the hole. It threads into the lead inter-cell
jumper, and the silicone rubber surrounds it to keep acid from leaking
or corroding the connection.
ones you don't need). so you can see where the jumpers are.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Typically you do not use a contactor to break under load on an EV. It is
usually used to make a contact. The SW 200 has large contacts rated to
handle 1000 amps for a full minute. I would definitely not count on using
one of these for a safety device to clear a load.
It should be noted though that Albright make these contactors with three
coil specifications; continuous, prolonged, and intermittent. The prolonged
can operate for an hour before the coil starts to overheat and the
intermittent 15 minutes. They both have corespondingly stronger return
springs. You would use intermittantly rated contactors in a contactor
controller where they are required to break currents. You could use an int.
rated coil and an economiser circuit to get a contactor less likely to weld.
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.compton.vispa.com/the_named
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone have any idea how many deposits they have received for the
Tango? Would be interesting to hear what the demand is (at least of
those willing to put a deposit down).
On 2/8/06, Dave Stensland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hey guys,
>
> Here's another example of people trying to comprehend an EV...
> http://blog.hypexr.org/?p=216
>
> -Dave
> http://www.megawattmotorworks.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Let's see ...
Blog? Check!
Misspelt words in the second sentence? Check!
Hmmm ... Clearly I should pay close attention to the opinions expressed
therein. =)
Dave Stensland wrote:
Hey guys,
Here's another example of people trying to comprehend an EV...
http://blog.hypexr.org/?p=216
-Dave
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com
On Jan 24, 2006, at 5:51 PM, Roderick Wilde wrote:
Dave, Please, More, More! This is great and there were naysayers on
this list that said our little prom queen takeover of Drag Times
wouldn't do much of anything to effect Joe six pack. This is some fun
reading from down under.
Roderick Wilde
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Feb 7, 2006, at 10:05 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The KillaCycle has the SAME drive package as it did the first day it
raced. Components have been upgraded, the body has changed a few
times, the frame has been redone, I played with a different name for
awhile, but it is still the KillaCycle.
Race vehicles evolve. It is their nature. Would we have it any other
way?
Old pictures of the Killacycle:
http://web.archive.org/web/20001205214000/www.killacycle.com/page1.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20001205225000/www.killacycle.com/specs.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20001216003500/www.killacycle.com/press1.html
Current:
http://www.killacycle.com/pages/index.html
http://www.killacycle.com/pages/newbike_page.html
http://www.killacycle.com/pages/p_pages/p_tire.html
http://www.killacycle.com/pages/factsheet.html
Just a little history to let others see what this fuss is about :-)
Paul "neon" G.
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Let's see...
One of the most prolific EV builders on this list is notorious for his
spelling errors. I guess his opinions must never be worth anything
either...
damon
From: Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Tango Naysayers
Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 11:43:56 -0800
Let's see ...
Blog? Check!
Misspelt words in the second sentence? Check!
Hmmm ... Clearly I should pay close attention to the opinions expressed
therein. =)
Dave Stensland wrote:
Hey guys,
Here's another example of people trying to comprehend an EV...
http://blog.hypexr.org/?p=216
-Dave
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com
On Jan 24, 2006, at 5:51 PM, Roderick Wilde wrote:
Dave, Please, More, More! This is great and there were naysayers on this
list that said our little prom queen takeover of Drag Times wouldn't do
much of anything to effect Joe six pack. This is some fun reading from
down under.
Roderick Wilde
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-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul G.
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 1:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Killacycle nearly in the top 10
On Feb 7, 2006, at 10:05 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The KillaCycle has the SAME drive package as it did the first day it
> raced. Components have been upgraded, the body has changed a few
> times, the frame has been redone, I played with a different name for
> awhile, but it is still the KillaCycle.
>
> Race vehicles evolve. It is their nature. Would we have it any other
> way?
>
Old pictures of the Killacycle:
http://web.archive.org/web/20001205214000/www.killacycle.com/page1.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20001205225000/www.killacycle.com/specs.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20001216003500/www.killacycle.com/press1.html
Current:
http://www.killacycle.com/pages/index.html
http://www.killacycle.com/pages/newbike_page.html
http://www.killacycle.com/pages/p_pages/p_tire.html
http://www.killacycle.com/pages/factsheet.html
Just a little history to let others see what this fuss is about :-)
Paul "neon" G.
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http://www.seattleeva.org/maillist/evdl/?show=2006./1./145
Touching base with the Tour de Sol & taking in the EAA
events in Joliet is possible. Rather than boycott the
Tour de Sol, how about getting some EV's to demostrate
they can have range & acceleration. If at all
interested, please contact me.
I'm a volunteer on the planning committee for the Tour
de Sol, and noticed NESEA has melded EVs into an
Alternatively Fueled Vehicle category. I think the
snub stems from that. Yes, NESEA is lukewarm to ev's,
which is disappointing, but ev's aren't out in the
cold.
What I think NESEA needs is an avid ev organizer on
the Tour de Sol planning committee. This committee
meets through toll-free conference calls every week or
two. NESEA picks up the tab. Any takers?
EV's compete in the Tour de Sol Championship against
other EV's - this hasn't changed. I for one would very
much like to hear from ev'ers and Solar Racers who
want NESEA to promote these types of vehicles, and
could help accomplish this.
The mix of vehicles that NESEA would like to include
is much more extensive than in the earliest days.
Figuring out how to do this satisfactorily for some
vehicle types could not be worked out for this year
for some of the events.
One of my NESEA interests is in rules revison that'd
enhance participation. Please contact me with your
ideas no matter what your vehicle of choice is - even
gasoline! NESEA's current focus is mainly on low fuel
consumption and low greenhouse gas emissions -
well-to-wheels. Vehicle performance is measured, but
typical Tour de Sol vehicles don't light up the
pavement. I'd like to see that change.
The 2006 Rules should be posted soon, but gluttons for
punishment, or the merely curious, can still download
the old rules.
http://www.nesea.org/transportation/tour/involved/enter.html
-brian
______________________________________________________
On 8 Feb 2006 at 11:24, M Bianchi wrote:
> So if you want the Tour de Sol to be about pure EVs,
bring some pure EVs to the
> Tour de Sol and join the crowd!
This is what I'm concerned about. It happens this way
every year now. The
TdS puts out publicity that essentially omits mention
of battery EVs. Then
when some of us wonder what the deal is, they (or you,
Michael) backpedal
and say "Well, sure, of course you're welcome. Come
on down."
All very friendly, but only those familiar with the
TdS's EV past will
inquire about the omission. If you don't invite new
road EVers (and the
publicity DOES NOT), pure EV participation is going to
be limited to those
who've participated before and those who know about
the TdS's history. Pure
EV participation will surely decline, year by year.
It's like when you call a friend and he lets slip that
he's getting ready
for a dinner party to which you weren't invited.
Oops, of COURSE you're
invited! The invitation must have been lost in the
mail.
Yeah, right.
If TdS wants road EVs, it will invite them. It can't
hurt them to mention
road EVs in their publicity, right there where they
mention bikes and NEVs,
but they pointedly do not. That to me says it all.
This isn't much different from GM building a good EV
and then telling
consumers that they didn't really want it. I don't
blame you personally,
Michael, but I really don't think the TdS is acting in
good faith here.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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I've been trying to stay out of this but... so much for self control.
If what is being said is true, that the only component that made the jump to
Megacycle was the motor then I have to agree with those who say that this is
a different bike.
This is like taking the engine block out of one car/bike and installing it
in another, with different chassis, body, fuel system, exhaust, diff, etc,
and calling it the same car/bike. If all that were changed were the batts,
then no problem. Or even the batts and the controller.
For example, if someone posted on Dragtimes that their 2.0 litre V4 got an
10.55, when it was actually a previous engine, say a blown 6 litre V8, I
think everyone would be calling foul.
-Mike
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Ken Trough [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Actually, a totally different frame and a totally different
> body mean you are talking about a totally different vehicle.
> The "drive package" should consist of the motor, controller
> and battery pack, yet I believe the controller and the
> battery pack are different from when the record was set.
Without defending or condemning Bill's representation of the KillaCycle,
I would like to point out that by your definition of "drivetrain" we
should perhaps be re-examining performance claims for White Zombie and
Maniac Mazda, etc. also. Both cars have run various batteries over the
years, and White Zombie, in addition to having run several different
motors has also had the controller swapped out. When Rod brings Maniac
Mazda back out tho the track (this year, I hope), it is unlikely to be
running quad DCPs, or the Inspiras of its glory days; when it sets a new
record, should Rod have to rename the vehicle to distinguish the new
configuration's record(s) from prior Maniac Mazda records; same vehicle,
different drivetrain...
I should also like to point out that both Ken and Rod have issues with
Bill unrelated to his representations of the KillaCycle due to the
recent internal NEDRA turmoil, and while their concerns about Bill's
representations may be well-intended, they might also be reacting a bit
more vehemently than they would were it someone other than Bill.
Cheers,
Roger.
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Mike Ellis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> If all that were changed were the batts, then no problem. Or
> even the batts and the controller.
>
> For example, if someone posted on Dragtimes that their 2.0
> litre V4 got an 10.55, when it was actually a previous
> engine, say a blown 6 litre V8, I think everyone would be
> calling foul.
The problem with this argument is that for an EV the motor itself is
only one part of the equation that determines the power. The batteries
and controllers play a larger part than the motors, so if you would
(rightly) cry foul if someone claimed to have set a record with a V4
when they actually ran a V8 at the time, you should also cry foul if
someone claims to have set their record running floodeds or a Curtis
when they really ran with Hawkers and a Z2K. Same motor(s), radically
different performance. Conversely, you should also cry foul if I claim
to have set my record with Hawkers, a Z2K and an ADC 8" when in fact I
ran a pair (or more!) of ADC 8" motors.
For EV racers, I think that it is essential to note the motor(s),
controller(s), and batteries associated with any record, as well as the
vehicle itself.
Cheers,
Roger.
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I bought the 56 evw from Zap on October 3 2005. I received a copy of the
title and bill of sale a few weeks later, after several phone calls. I
also got a temporary paper to put in the window, and drive it daily. The
title has not arrived, so I went to Dmv to inquire about it this morning.
They said there is no record of any transfer in their computer, and
suggested I contact Zap. I called a few minutes ago and was told that
the papers were sent in and they would check with the Dmv and call me
back. I will let you know my progress in getting this issue resolved.
Bill
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Chris Robison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I'm concerned actually, about the size of the joint where
> each leg attaches to the can. It just does not seem very
> substantial, even looking at it in person.
Looks may be deceiving; as Jim Husted notes, those joints may well be at
least as beefy as the bolts holding John's mounts to his Siamese 8.
> This is true, with the exception of physical damage causing
> the motor to physically sieze, this is the maximum torque
> reaction I will have to withstand -- torque impact from
> potholes and such will not affect the motor case.
Of course it will; the difference for you is that there is no tranny to
multiply this torque before it gets to the motor case. That said, I
think that if you devise mounts skookum enough to handle your monster
motor's maximum torque you are probably covered for all daily driving
situations!
> Problem is, as far as I know we're not quite sure what that
> maximum torque is exactly. To my knowledge, it's never been
> measured above 1400A, with the shorter prototype making
> approximately 900 ft-lbs at that current. My realistic
> expectation is somewhere around 1100-1200 @2000A at this
> point, but my planning figure probably should be a bit higher.
> Plus, there's other stresses as well, some of which may be
> additive in combination. Makes me wish I were better at math.
Forget the math; you need to be a competent mechanical engineer! ;^>
(No, I'm not one either...)
> Would it make sense to use something a little harder like
> urethane? I've seen various references online to folks making
> their own racing engine mounts from castable urethane, which
> is available at McMaster Carr and elsewhere.
Stiffer mounts are probably fine, but I'd sleep easier using a proven
part rather than casting my own and having it fail. Given where the
motor is located, do you really want 400lbs of motor flailing about next
to your seat? Or $XXXX of motor sliding down the road beneath you?
> http://photos.plasmaboyracing.com/buildsequence/Siamese8
>
> Looks like it's bolted into the side of the motor. I like the
> design of the mount itself -- looks like it's well-suited to
> resist loads from all directions. It appears that the new
> bolt holes were drilled between the field shoe bolts.
I like this a lot, and it looks well-suited to your space-constrained
situation as well.
The brackets appear to have much the same shape/configuration as the
barackets one would find on the side of an ICE engine block. The ICE
mounts often mount to the chassis such that they are angled in a "V"
when viewed from the front or rear of the vehicle. The mounts either
have a stud sticking up for the motor bracket to sit over, or have a
threaded hole for the bracket to bolt to. One can lower the motor onto
the mounts and have some confidence that the motor cannot fall through
to the ground even if the bolts fail.
A pair of V8 ICE mounts would be about right for the weight of your
motor, but given the unknown torque load, and to provide fore/aft
support in the absence of a tranny and its mount to resist the motor
from rocking, I'd be inclined to use 4 such mounts, 2 per side.
John's Siamese 8's brackets have a wide flange that attaches to both
motors and a single mount "pad" centrally located; I would use a
similarly wide flange on your beast, but provide mount pads at both the
front and rear ends of this flange.
Using 4 V8 mounts should keep the motor securely located without the
complication of an endbell mount to resist rocking, and should handle
all the torque you can throw at them.
> Using the eyeholes might be interesting ... I'd considered
> implementing the motor "tub" in the cabin floor as a
> removeable hatch, and using the eyes to lift through the hole
> while installing the motor. I'd need some kind of short
> gantry through the cabin to pull from, so this we can file
> among some of my sillier ideas.
Not silly at all; I think this is probably your best installation option
if you go with a mount arrangement similar to John's Siamese 8. A
standard engine hoist should handle this task just fine, although I
expect you would have to remove one door completely as well as both
seats to provide working room. Hoise the motor up, slide it into the
cab over the open hatch, then lower it onto the installed motor mounts.
Bolt up the mounts to the motor brackets and you're done. If you use
motor mounts with studs protruding from their tops, you have to do a bit
of jiggling to get all the studs started in the bracket holes as you
lower the motor, but you can then remove the hoist prior to installing
the nuts to secure things. If the mounts have threaded holes, then you
need to leave the hoist in place to allow slight repositioning of the
motor until all bolts have been started into the mounts.
Best of all, this route keeps you and your hands and toes out from
underneath this 400lb monster while it is being installed! ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
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