EV Digest 5166
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Link 1000 problems
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Aircraft Gen. Motor WAS Re: E-Volks Geo Metro Conversion
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: "This New Car" -- Anyone listening?
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: "This New Car" -- Anyone listening?
by Jim Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: "This New Car" -- Anyone listening?
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Vegetable oil as replacement for gasoline heater.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Vegetable oil as replacement for gasoline heater.
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: UHMW Plastic
by "Adrian DeLeon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: "This New Car" -- Anyone listening?
by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Acoustic noise from Vacuum Pump
by jimevdl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Aircraft Gen. Motor WAS Re: E-Volks Geo Metro Conversion
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: UHMW Plastic
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Riding the White Zombie and other EVents (long)
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
by "Hacker Joel-QA6240" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Carbon Nanotube Ultracapictors (full text (bad me))
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Vegetable oil as replacement for gasoline heater.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: UHMW Plastic
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: UHMW Plastic
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: UHMW Plastic
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: 56 vw ev and Zap!
by Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Zivan NG3 Charger DIN connector socket pinout diagram.
by "Peter Perkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I have a Link 1000 that I use to monitor some batteries, I've had it for about
8 years. It now shows SEL only. I can push SET/ SEL/CHARGE/INVERT and the
monitor goes into scrolling mode, then within seconds reverts back to SEL. When
it scrolls it seems that the values displayed are correct. If I push on a
corner of the plastic case it will also function for a few minutes, then go to
SEL.
Any thoughts or ways that I can diagnose it myself?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:27 PM 2/9/2006, you wrote:
Andre' Blanchard wrote:
> Rather then a drum, I was thinking two plates. One plate with two
> contacts for each battery, the second plate with four sets of
> contacts each of which would when alined with the contacts on the
> other plate connect the batteries in different series parallel
> combinations.
You should look at some of the antique versions of these setups. They
were highly developed and "the way to do it" for many decades.
There were "passive" contacts in between the "active" contacts.
Resistors connected to these passive contacts so that as you moved from
one position to another, the load current could change gradually. The
sliding contact was large enough to bridge pairs of contacts. For
example, to go from 36v to 72v (view with a fixed-width font):
moving shorting bar
\
36v------------O || O
| resistor || |
---/\/\---O || O
|---to motor
---/\/\---O O
| resistor |
72-------------O O
As shown, the motor is connected directly to 36v. The 36v resistor is
shorted, so it does nothing. As you start moving the switch to the 72v
position:
1. The 36v-to-motor contact opens. Inductive current now flows thru
the 36v resistor. This minimizes arcing on the 36v contact.
2. The shorting bar next shorts the two resistors to the motor. The
motor current increases, heading toward its new 72v value.
3. The 36v resistor contact opens. Inductive current still has a path
thru the 72v resistor, again minimizing arcing.
4. The shorting bar connects the 72v contact to the motor. Now the
motor is operating directly on 72v; the 72v resistor is shorted
and so out of the circuit.
The resistors could be relatively small, as you never operated the motor
for more than a fraction of a second with them in the circuit (just the
time it takes to move the lever from the 36v direct to the 72v direct
position). Since there is always a path for the current, arcing is
minimized. These controllers ran very large electric vehicles for
decades of constant daily use (trolley cars, etc.).
But for the trolley cars and such this type of control was used mostly for
switching between taps on a transformer, was it not?
Not sure how it could be applied to a series parallel switch on a battery pack.
Having to push a button to insert a resistor in the motor circuit before
the switch can be moved should provide a similar action.
If the push button was a two stage setup first stage would drop out C1 fig.
below, the second stage would drop out C2. The button would be a thumb or
trigger finger setup on the lever that moved the battery contact plate
relative to the switch contact plate. The plate movement interlock could
be set at stage 1 or 2 which ever works best. Also could be a link to the
field rheostat such that when moving up to the next voltage level the field
would be set up to max, and when moving down in voltage the field could be
dropped down to some, probably different level for each stage. But that
may not be worth the extra complication.
Battery plate contacts O
Switch plate contacts #
The battery plate is moved across the switch plate to get the different
series parallel configurations of the batteries.
____
|-* *-|
Batteries 1X 2X 4X 8X | C1 |
| |
*-------*-------*-------*-------*-/\/\-*---- To motor
+ -----------O |-# |-# |-# |-#
B | | |
- -----------O | #-| | # | # #
| | | | | | |
+ -----------O |-# | | # | # #
B | | | |
- -----------O | #-| | #-| | # #
| | | | | | |
+ -----------O |-# | |-# | | # #
B | | | | |
- -----------O | #-| | # | | # #
| | | | | | | |
+ -----------O |-# | | # | | # #
B | | | | |
- -----------O | #-| | #-| | #-| #
| | | | | | |
+ -----------O |-# | |-# | |-# | #
B | | | | |
- -----------O | #-| | # | # | #
| | | | | | | |
+ -----------O |-# | | # | # | #
B | | | | |
- -----------O | #-| | #-| # | #
| | | | | | |
+ -----------O |-# | |-# | # | #
B | | | |
- -----------O | #-| # | # | #
| | | | | | |
+ -----------O |-# | # | # | #
B | | |
- -----------O #-| #-| #-| #-| ____
*-------*-------*-------*------* *----- To motor
C2
> The flat fiberglass plate is inexpensive and machining would be
> easier then a drum form.
My worry with fiberglass is that it can burn, carbonize and become
conductive, and even fail completely to let the bolts get loose. I'd
prefer ceramic, glass, asbestos, mica, slate, or some other inorganic
material.
The fiberglass I was looking at is described as flame resistance and
intended for use in electrical applications. The materials you list have
one or more disadvantages, much more expensive, or way more difficult to
machine, or sorely lacking in impact strength.
http://www.mcmaster.com/ Part number 8549K56.
""
Color: Opaque red
Max. Temp.: 248° F, not rated for low-end temperature use
Softening Temp.: Not rated
Tensile Strength: Excellent
Impact Strength: Excellent
Good electrical insulator
Use indoors
Machine with carbide tooling
Hardness: Barcol 50
Good electrical insulation properties combined with high strength and flame
resistance make this material an excellent choice for electrical
applications. It's a glass fiber-reinforced polyester. Meets UL 94V0 for
flammability.
""
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
---- M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm curious; is anyone listening to the "This New Car" programs I've been
> advertising?
>
> --
> Mike Bianchi
Yes Thank you
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, I have been listening. I just heard the last one last
night, about electric and plug-in hybrid. I wasn't really
happy. I wasn't paying 100% attention but they kept talking
about "we'll need megawatt generators and electrical
services to charge all the cars in 10 minutes", etc. etc.
Didn't say much about charging all night with no added
infrastructure needed, or the thousands of people who built
their own cars and are getting very good service out of
them, and why can't the big car companies do the same?
Jim Phillips
M Bianchi wrote:
I'm curious; is anyone listening to the "This New Car" programs I've been
advertising?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have! They are quite informative and well made. Thank you.
Dave
From deep within our secret soul
do demons dwell and take their toll
----- Original Message -----
From: "M Bianchi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 5:10 AM
Subject: "This New Car" -- Anyone listening?
I'm curious; is anyone listening to the "This New Car" programs I've been
advertising?
--
Mike Bianchi
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ever try BioD or Veggie oil in your heater? LR>..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 4:32 AM
Subject: Re: Vegetable oil as replacement for gasoline heater.
My factory S-10 ev has a diesel heater for passenger comfort... and it
is the least enjoyable feature of the truck. It too has those smoky
phases and driving around the city when that is happening is down right
embarrassing as people see/smell the smoke billowing from under the
truck. And of course the smell gets inside so I smell it too... kinda
like being stuck behind a big ol' bus, which defeats the "clean" feel of
an electric. Extending the range is good, but... I'd prefer to use the
batteries up and prevent the stink.
Michael A. Radtke wrote:
However, please understand that the diesel versions of these heaters are
smoky and smelly at startup and shutdown. With diesel, that means a
smell like you'd expect and soon learn to hate. The biodiesel does not
smell like french fries as folks have said, but more like smoking,
overheated vegetable oil. Even if only at start up and shut down,
neither of these smells is desirable.
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wonder if the smoky phases could be eliminated if you put an electric
heater in the combustion air pipe going to the burner. Way less power then
directly heating the cab with an electric heater.
At 06:32 AM 2/10/2006, you wrote:
My factory S-10 ev has a diesel heater for passenger comfort... and it is
the least enjoyable feature of the truck. It too has those smoky phases
and driving around the city when that is happening is down right
embarrassing as people see/smell the smoke billowing from under the truck.
And of course the smell gets inside so I smell it too... kinda like being
stuck behind a big ol' bus, which defeats the "clean" feel of an electric.
Extending the range is good, but... I'd prefer to use the batteries up and
prevent the stink.
Michael A. Radtke wrote:
However, please understand that the diesel versions of these heaters are
smoky and smelly at startup and shutdown. With diesel, that means a
smell like you'd expect and soon learn to hate. The biodiesel does not
smell like french fries as folks have said, but more like smoking,
overheated vegetable oil. Even if only at start up and shut down,
neither of these smells is desirable.
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<Peter VanDerWal wrote:>
Did you mean UHMW plastic?
If so, then I don't think it would be suitable for making motor mounts.
UHMW will deform under pressure. In fact it will gradually deform under
it's own weight if not supported properly.
I probably wouldn't use it for large motor mounts, but I don't think it
will deform under its own weight. UHMW is what those cool milky white
cutting boards are made of. Very tough stuff in 3/8" and 1/2" thickness.
It's a bit difficult to cut (use a jig saw, big teeth, slow blade speed),
but wonderful for lots of hobby stuff.
I've used it to make skis, landing hear mounts, and motor mounts for model
airplanes (2" to 3" square pieces). Two are 0.47CI "glow" engines and one
is a 31cc weed eater conversion. I also used it to mount the 2 ceramic
heater cores in my VW. I'll let you know it holds up to the temps, but I'm
not worried about them deforming...
Adrian
.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, I pick it up on iTunes and have been listening. No problems, great
show.
Thanks
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of M Bianchi
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 5:11 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: "This New Car" -- Anyone listening?
I'm curious; is anyone listening to the "This New Car" programs I've been
advertising?
--
Mike Bianchi
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have an MES pump from Victor. It works really well, is small and
self-contained (no ext switch needed), and comes with built-in rubber mounting
isolators. At the time I bought it, it was cheaper than other solutions as
well. I don't have other models to compare the noise level with, but it's
pretty quiet. I was able to further reduce the noise, by inserting a small
plastic (1/8"?) hose in the exhaust port. this 1' long hose is then pointed
down into the engine compartment. It doesn't really muffle the sound, but it
seems to direct it to an area where it's less noticable. The fans I had to
mount on my DCP DC/DC for cooling are significantly louder than the vac pump.
I too always wanted the worlds quietest car, but I kind of like being able to
detect the vac pump coming on sometimes. I can't hear it over road noise while
driving, but at a stop I can, and I'm the only person (sans other EV drivers)
who will detect it running.
Best regards, Jim Seibert
-----Original Message-----
>From: Dave Stensland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Feb 9, 2006 1:17 PM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: Acoustic noise from Vacuum Pump
>
>Hi John,
>
>The trick to making them quiet is to mount it on a rubber trampoline. I
>think Bill Dube gave me this idea. That's what I did on my last EV and
>it made a huge difference for my large Gast pump.
>
>I'll try to draw a 2D view for you...
>
> [ Vacuum Pump ]
> [] [] <--- Fasten your vacuum pump
>to the heavy rubber pad
>---------------------------- <--- Heavy but flexible rubber pad.
>Think and rubbery.
> --- --- <--- Washers
> [] [] <--- Bolts or bolt/bracket
>fasteners... whatever works for you.
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ <--- Frame. You want something solid.
>
>Now if you've done this already than I'd recommend a different pump.
>
>Cheers,
>-Dave
>http://www.megawattmotorworks.com
>
>
>On Feb 9, 2006, at 1:40 PM, Grigg. John wrote:
>
>>
>> Has anyone on this list compared the noise level generated from
>> different vacuum pumps? I'm frustrated with how loud the Thomas pump
>> is.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>> John Grigg
>>
>> _______________________________________________________________________
>> ____________________________________
>> This email and any attachments thereto may contain private,
>> confidential, and privileged material for the
>> sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or
>> distribution of this email (or any attachments
>> thereto) by other than the County of Sacramento or the intended
>> recipient is strictly prohibited.
>>
>> If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender
>> immediately and permanently
>> delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments
>> thereto.
>> _______________________________________________________________________
>> ____________________________________
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 10:56:42 -0600, "Andre' Blanchard"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>But for the trolley cars and such this type of control was used mostly for
>switching between taps on a transformer, was it not?
Not for DC trolleys, the predominant type. The drum switch can do any
combination of switching in or out armature resistors and field
resistors. I've seen combinations but the more usual one is to simply
switch in resistance grids. Efficiency wasn't a major factor with
external power supplies.
>Not sure how it could be applied to a series parallel switch on a battery pack.
It could but the number of contacts would expand geometrically, I'm
afraid.
>
>Having to push a button to insert a resistor in the motor circuit before
>the switch can be moved should provide a similar action.
Yes, you can complicate it to any degree you wish but the original
theme of this drum controller discussion was simplicity and low cost.
> ____
> |-* *-|
>Batteries 1X 2X 4X 8X | C1 |
<ascii snipped>
>> > The flat fiberglass plate is inexpensive and machining would be
>> > easier then a drum form.
Perhaps if CNC was involved. From the perspective of someone building
a controller at home, perhaps with a small lathe and/or mill/drill
machine, a cylindrical moveable element would be much easier to
machine. I'd select a suitable solid cylinder of material,
pocket-mill slots for conductors, install them (couple of recessed hex
heed cap screws and perhaps some epoxy, then turn the whole thing to
put the conductors flush with the insulator.
Like most homemade things, the architecture would probably mainly
depend on what you had on hand to work with.
>The fiberglass I was looking at is described as flame resistance and
>intended for use in electrical applications. The materials you list have
>one or more disadvantages, much more expensive, or way more difficult to
>machine, or sorely lacking in impact strength.
>http://www.mcmaster.com/ Part number 8549K56.
That is the stuff almost universally used in industrial switchgear. It
is effectively fireproof. It won't track either. I've seen the
inside of high voltage apparatus where the fault arc impinged on the
stuff. It was burned away in the shape of the arc but no flame
propagation outside the area that contacted the plasma. Great stuff.
Hard on cutting tools, though. Even carbide dulls fairly quickly.
As I said at the beginning of this thread, if I were to be building a
drum controller, I'd probably divide the battery into quadrants for
series/paralleling, then use resistance to tailor the speed. I'd
select the motor characteristic and gearing so that the most usual
operating speeds would fall within the range of the straight series or
parallel.
I'd probably also add some shunt field to the motor for narrow range
speed control. This would let me vary the speed a little without
series resistors. I'd put a cam on the drum that would operate a
field rheostat as the "throttle" was moved in the vicinity of the
series or parallel points.
This is what I call a KISS controller. If one complicates it much,
he's back in the complexity and cost range of a solid state
controller.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, February 10, 2006 11:24 am, Adrian DeLeon said:
> is a 31cc weed eater conversion. I also used it to mount the 2 ceramic
> heater cores in my VW. I'll let you know it holds up to the temps, but I'm
> not worried about them deforming...
Though there are more heat-resistant variations, usually UHMW polyethylene
has a maximum recommended temperature of around 180F -- which seems really
close to where your heater elements may be operating, especially if your
fan fails. Did you go with a specialized high-temperature formulation?
After a bit of research, I decided to go with G10 phenolic (aka. FR-4) to
hold my heater cores. Cheaper than I expected, about $13 for a 15x18"
sheet at 3/16s thick from the local plastics shop. Max temperature is
around 275F.
--chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I could bring one of my V28 lions.. should you wish to play with 28 volts
and 100 amps.
I have 4, 2 came with my Combi Kit... and two followed me home.
2 came home with scorch marks on them. One has been diassected... I learned
a LOT...
Lion is going to be a heart ache.. Lots to be gained...much effort needed.
Rich Rudman
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 3:41 AM
Subject: Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> >Basicly none at all.
> ><snip>
> >Jesse made a batter support rack and made sure it was not plumb or
squre...
> >because he wanted it to look a bit strange. His total time on the build
> >was abnout 5 minutes a day, and maybe 1 hour mid week.
> >
> >So...Jesse didn't do much... except hassle us when we most didn't need
it.
> >
> >
> Isn't that what he's supposed to do, give the builders a hard time that
> is...
>
> Have you got ahold of any of those Milwaukee batteries to play with yet
> Rich?
> I'm not sure if it would entice or discourage you from showing up at the
> next
> SEVA meeting, but I'm gonna bring my latest 2.2lb. Li-ion scooter
battery...
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
Good point, you don't need the center diff or extra driveshaft or
heavier tranny. However, I'd still guess there's 100 or 150 lbs more
than a RWD would have (diff and 2 axles).
I think the stock diff weights 22 lbs and the half shafts are 6 lbs each. 34
lbs total. 2800 lbs car. Call it 1.25%.
>Also, this is more rotating
weight and some of it is geared.
Yes.
So I think it is still about 3 to 5%
more weight than RWD, and with rotational effects its is effectively
more (maybe 1% more effectively).
I not sure you can combine the additional weight figure and the figure you
have assigned to rotational effects.
Also in theory, the car would have very close to equal amounts of rotational
mass because the car would be built with half shafts and diffs to cope with
half the torque that the RWD vehicle needs. So instead of spinning one large
diff and two thick half shafts, you are spinning up two light diffs and four
thin half shafts.
>You also have the losses of a 2nd diff and 4 extra CV joints (there goes
another 3 or 5%).
Keep in mind that a rear drive car is putting all it's power through 1 diff
and 4 cv joints. Load will increase your drag losses. Under race conditions
when you are always accelerating or decelerating, I would suspect that
cutting your load in half will offset the extra no load drag losses of the
2nd diff and cv joints.
>So it would
not surprise me at all if even an electric AWD straight-line
accelerated 5 or 10% slower than an equivalent RWD once above
traction issues speed.
This would surprise me a great deal for the reasons above.
Also, didn't you go AWD for the better regen braking? No question AWD
excels at that.
Yes. That was a main reason but not the only one.
Umm, you are always traction limited when road racing (i.e. it is
always a
slippery surface)- or you are not pushing the car hard enough.
Generally speaking this is true on a low speed course, like an
autocross course can be. For instance, on a 1st gear autocross
course, my car is traction limited at our venue, even for straight
line acceleration. Once I'm in 2nd gear, if I'm going straight I'm
power limited, not traction limited.
At the other extreme, on a very high speed course (like Open Road
Racing), you are power limited almost the whole race, not traction
limited. AWD doesn't help you here, it actually hurts. You don't see
many AWD cars in Open Road Racing. <http://www.openroadracing.com/>
'Open Road Racing' seems to be what top speed you are comfortable driving a
car on public roads. It is also bracket racing-you set a time and then do
it. I do not think that AWD vs. RWD really is being explored here. A better
example might be Bonneville. I doubt there is any advantage to AWD for
Bonneville speed runs.
For cars designed to corner well, good street tires, AWD can
accelerate at 1 g at first, RWD about 0.7 g. Use Power = Force *
Velocity, and for a typical AWD AX car (3300 lbs, about 250 hp) you
are down to about 0.7 g acceleration at around 40 mph. So the AWD vs.
RWD breakpoint is about 40 mph, RWD should be faster on the 40+ mph
course.
If I understand this correctly, you are saying that, in a straight line AWD
will accelerate better until the car reaches 40 MPH where the extra 34 lbs
will make the AWD drive car slower and the RWD will begin to catch up. I
would be curious using the figures from your example, how soon the 250
horsepower 3300 lb RWD car will catch up with the 250 horsepower 3334 lb AWD
car?
So that's great for straight line stuff, what about cornering? For
deaccelerating, advantage RWD (bit lighter).
Agreed, ignoring the regen advantages which do not effect the actual
braking.
For pure cornering,
advantage RWD, a bit lighter
Agreed that a slightly heavier car on the same rubber will not have the same
ultimate theoretical cornering speed. Again, we are talking 34 lbs.
and you can steer the car with the throttle.
Steering the car with the throttle is at the cost of ultimate cornering
speed. It causes the rear wheels to slip more or less than optimal to
correct the heading of the car. This is always a problem with these 'perfect
world' theoretical debates (even though they are fun). We both know the
actual limiting factor is how drivable the car is. Coming into a corner is
always the driver's best estimation of how much grip is available this
instance. A good driver gets it close but still needs to adjust brake,
throttle and steering to find the fastest line for that time through the
corner. In the real world, a driver friendly car will beat a 'ultimate grip'
car every time.
Interestingly we have found that we can steer the AWD car with throttle as
well. It is basically the opposite of RWD. Snap off the throttle increases
the bite of the front wheels and gives oversteer. So 'you can steer the car
with the throttle' is not a unique advantage to RWD.
What about squirting out of the turn? AWD has a slight
advantage here, during that short time of transition from pure
cornering to pure straight line acceleration. Straightaway? Below 40
mph advantage AWD, above 40 advantage RWD.
This is actually the key to why AWD is such an advantage in close circuit
road racing. Coming out of a corner, the RWD drive car is trying to put all
it's power-lets say 300 foot pounds of torque down with two wheels or 150
foot pounds per wheel. An AWD drive car is trying to put 75 foot pounds down
with each wheel.
The AWD shot out of the corner helps a lot in lap times. The more corners
the more advantage.
A couple of fine points: Most AWDs have an open front diff, so they
are limited in how much power they can apply in the turn.
This is because the diff is sending half the power that a RWD diff sends and
is less likely to need a limited slip.
Most RWD
cars are tuned with some steady state understeer, so you can get on
the gas a bit harder coming out of the turn.
If the tire is already at optimum slip, more power will only cause the rear
tires to slide more. This is why you can steer with the throttle. More power
at this point is not faster.
Sanctioning
organization tend to required four wheel drive cars to run with a
weight
penalty that nullifies the advantage to keep a good mix of cars. In
a more
open rules format like German Touring Car a few years back, all the
teams
were running four wheel drive.
Interesting, which sanctioning organizations are those, is it SCCA?
FIA
Here's a counterpoint: SCCA autocross changed classing to allow AWD
into ESP, which had traditionally been a Mustang and Camaro class.
There was weeping, moaning, and gnashing of teeth -- the pony car
owners were sure the AWDs were going to stomp them. To many people's
surprise, the pony cars have been holding their own and beating the
AWD cars. This might change this summer when nationals switches from
a high grip course to a lower grip course. The AWD cars do well at
ProSolo events that have a drag race start.
I would guess experienced drivers and well prepared Mustang and Camaro's
have the advantage. Let's see how it looks a few years from now.
So don't get me wrong, I have 4WD for the snow and want my wife to
get an AWD car. I was surprised, though, when I started doing some
math and research that AWD was not as much of an advantage as I had
guessed. For road racing like you are doing, the regen advantages are
very clear with AWD. For me, planning on cheaper lead-acid batteries,
anything longer that an AX run is out of the question, so regen isn't
much help, so RWD seemed a good compromise. I did note you beat all
the RWD cars at BBB autocross. :)
Another promising area I think is 4 wheel intelligent traction
control for cornering. Not to just stop wheel spin, but to help the
car yaw correctly. Ultimately, input the course and have the car
adjust for slaloms vs. corners, for instance. I think an EV would be
the ultimate way to do this.
I saw an amazing video by TM4 with four of their wheel motors driving a car
up an ice slope that people could not walk up. Each wheel would sense how
much torque it could apply before the wheels would spin. Image the
possibilities on a race track. Of course, then we are getting into driver
skill vs. technology but that is a question for another day or list <G>.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
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Okay Rich,
Could you please tell us all just for curiosity (and bookmarking sake)
Where you got the Lions and what the cons are against them or
Why you said,
"Lion is going to be a heart ache.. Lots to be gained...much effort
needed."
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Rudman
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 12:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
I could bring one of my V28 lions.. should you wish to play with 28
volts and 100 amps.
I have 4, 2 came with my Combi Kit... and two followed me home.
2 came home with scorch marks on them. One has been diassected... I
learned a LOT...
Lion is going to be a heart ache.. Lots to be gained...much effort
needed.
Rich Rudman
Madman
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http://www.terradaily.com/reports/MIT_Researchers_Fired_Up_About_Battery_Alternative.html
MIT Researchers Fired Up About Battery Alternative
-by Staff Writers
Cambridge MA (SPX) Feb 08, 2006
Just about everything that runs on batteries -- flashlights, cell
phones, electric cars, missile-guidance systems -- would be improved
with a better energy supply. But traditional batteries haven't
progressed far beyond the basic design developed by Alessandro Volta
in the 19th century.
Work at MIT's Laboratory for Electromagnetic and Electronic Systems
(LEES) holds out the promise of the first technologically significant
and economically viable alternative to conventional batteries in more
than 200 years.
Joel E. Schindall, the Bernard Gordon Professor of Electrical
Engineering and Computer Science (EECS) and associate director of the
Laboratory for Electromagnetic and Electronic Systems; John G.
Kassakian, EECS professor and director of LEES; and Ph.D. candidate
Riccardo Signorelli are using nanotube structures to improve on an
energy storage device called an ultracapacitor.
Capacitors store energy as an electrical field, making them more
efficient than standard batteries, which get their energy from
chemical reactions. Ultracapacitors are capacitor-based storage cells
that provide quick, massive bursts of instant energy. They are
sometimes used in fuel-cell vehicles to provide an extra burst for
accelerating into traffic and climbing hills.
However, ultracapacitors need to be much larger than batteries to hold
the same charge.
The LEES invention would increase the storage capacity of existing
commercial ultracapacitors by storing electrical fields at the atomic
level.
Although ultracapacitors have been around since the 1960s, they are
relatively expensive and only recently began being manufactured in
sufficient quantities to become cost-competitive. Today you can find
ultracapacitors in a range of electronic devices, from computers to
cars.
However, despite their inherent advantages -- a 10-year-plus lifetime,
indifference to temperature change, high immunity to shock and
vibration and high charging and discharging efficiency -- physical
constraints on electrode surface area and spacing have limited
ultracapacitors to an energy storage capacity around 25 times less
than a similarly sized lithium-ion battery.
The LEES ultracapacitor has the capacity to overcome this energy
limitation by using vertically aligned, single-wall carbon nanotubes
-- one thirty-thousandth the diameter of a human hair and 100,000
times as long as they are wide. How does it work? Storage capacity in
an ultracapacitor is proportional to the surface area of the
electrodes.
Today's ultracapacitors use electrodes made of activated carbon, which
is extremely porous and therefore has a very large surface area.
However, the pores in the carbon are irregular in size and shape,
which reduces efficiency. The vertically aligned nanotubes in the LEES
ultracapacitor have a regular shape, and a size that is only several
atomic diameters in width. The result is a significantly more
effective surface area, which equates to significantly increased
storage capacity.
The new nanotube-enhanced ultracapacitors could be made in any of the
sizes currently available and be produced using conventional
technology.
"This configuration has the potential to maintain and even improve the
high performance characteristics of ultracapacitors while providing
energy storage densities comparable to batteries," Schindall said.
"Nanotube-enhanced ultracapacitors would combine the long life and
high power characteristics of a commercial ultracapacitor with the
higher energy storage density normally available only from a chemical
battery."
This work was presented at the 15th International Seminar on Double
Layer Capacitors and Hybrid Energy Storage Devices in Deerfield Beach,
Fla., in December 2005. The work has been funded in part by the
MIT/Industry Consortium on Advanced Automotive Electrical/Electronic
Components and Systems and in part by a grant from the Ford-MIT
Alliance.
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Andre' Blanchard wrote:
> I wonder if the smoky phases could be eliminated if you put an
> electric heater in the combustion air pipe going to the burner.
There are catalytic converters for commercial ovens and oil-fired
heaters. Basically the same idea as the catalytic converter for a car;
they have an exhaust pipe with a catalyst in it that breaks down the
smoke and unburnt hydrocarbons. To work, the catalyst has to be very
hot. I'm somewhat familiar with the ones for commercial ovens; they have
an electric heating element that heats it to something over 900 deg.F
before the exhaust is passed over it. Once it starts working, the heat
from the oven and the exhaust decomposition keeps it hot so the heating
element is turned off.
Another approach that is sometimes used is an electrostatic
precipitator. This is a pair of metal grids that the smoke passes thru.
A very high voltage DC is applied to these grids. The smoke particles
pick up a charge passing thru the first grid, and then stick to the
other one. They work amazingly well for smoke, but don't remove odors or
unburned hydrocarbons. Also, the grids need to be cleaned frequently.
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Adrian DeLeon said:
>> I also used it [UHMW polyethylene] to mount the 2 ceramic heater
>> cores in my VW.
I'd worry about this. It will melt and flow if it gets hot. This could
let the heater touch something, causing a short circuit or fire.
Chris Robison wrote:
> After a bit of research, I decided to go with G10 phenolic (aka. FR-4)
> to hold my heater cores.
G10 is fiberglass/epoxy. FR-4 is the same thing with a fire retardant
added. Phenolic is a completely different material; usually a paper or
wood fiber with phenolic resin impregnation. Either are a better choice
for a heater, as they won't melt and have a higher burning and/or
decomposition temperature.
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Actually UHMW does not flow, which is why it cannot be injection
molded. You can put a sheet into the oven and at its melting point the
sheet becomes floppy and turns completely clear, but not flow at all.
As far as I understand it's due to the way the ultra-long polymer chains
entangle; they remain tangled even though the bonds between chains are
broken.
Arguably it could be classified as a thermosetting material and not a
thermoplastic material. But it's in the polyethylene family so
logically you want to call it a thermoplastic.
But this is all just trivia- UHMW does become soft, elastic, and of low
tensile strength at the melting point, so it can still fail to retain
the wiring when used outside its rated temp range.
Danny
Lee Hart wrote:
Adrian DeLeon said:
I also used it [UHMW polyethylene] to mount the 2 ceramic heater
cores in my VW.
I'd worry about this. It will melt and flow if it gets hot. This could
let the heater touch something, causing a short circuit or fire.
Chris Robison wrote:
After a bit of research, I decided to go with G10 phenolic (aka. FR-4)
to hold my heater cores.
G10 is fiberglass/epoxy. FR-4 is the same thing with a fire retardant
added. Phenolic is a completely different material; usually a paper or
wood fiber with phenolic resin impregnation. Either are a better choice
for a heater, as they won't melt and have a higher burning and/or
decomposition temperature.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, February 10, 2006 4:46 pm, Lee Hart said:
>> After a bit of research, I decided to go with G10 phenolic (aka. FR-4)
>> to hold my heater cores.
>
> G10 is fiberglass/epoxy. FR-4 is the same thing with a fire retardant
> added. Phenolic is a completely different material; usually a paper or
> wood fiber with phenolic resin impregnation. Either are a better choice
> for a heater, as they won't melt and have a higher burning and/or
> decomposition temperature.
Thanks for the clarification; I'd actually been wondering about this since
the composition doesn't match the descriptions I've read for "phenolic"
material.
"G10 phenolic" is the terminology I got from the folks at the plastics
shop (Regal Plastics: http://www.regal-plastics.com/) and is apparently
something that a lot of other folks have confused as well. Google on "G10
phenolic" and you'll find quite a few references, as well as information
that implies that FR-4 is the same thing (which I was also told at Regal).
The monicker probably sticks because the stuff has a similar
laminate/resin appearance and apparent hardness, to real phenolic. Kinda
like calling the yellow stuff in a quarter-pounder "cheese" due to its
vague resemblance, not because it's ever actually seen a cow. :o)
--chris
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Zap sent me the papers, fedex this morning to get the bug registered.
Renay (coporate secretary) has returned my calls promptly and contacted
dmv over there to get things right, even sent a check to pay for the
lost title.
Bill
jmygann wrote:
How did you pay for it ? Can you cancel payment ??
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I bought the 56 evw from Zap on October 3 2005. I received a copy of
the
title and bill of sale a few weeks later, after several phone calls.
I
also got a temporary paper to put in the window, and drive it daily.
The
title has not arrived, so I went to Dmv to inquire about it this
morning.
They said there is no record of any transfer in their computer, and
suggested I contact Zap. I called a few minutes ago and was told that
the papers were sent in and they would check with the Dmv and call me
back. I will let you know my progress in getting this issue resolved.
Bill
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--- Begin Message ---
Zivan NG3 Charger DIN connector socket pinout diagram.
Does anyone have this?
I have a Zivan remote LED for the charge indicator, but I have lost the DIN
plug off the end, and don’t know the pinout or colour code of the zivan
extension lead!
Anyone?
Thanks
Peter
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