EV Digest 5176
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Japan rules, U.S. drools in new list of greenest vehicles
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Lithiums in Parallel (was: RE: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go
Lithium!!!)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Busted in Blue Meanie!
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) AeroBatteries was: RE: FW: Busted in Blue Meanie!
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Non-electric hybrids
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV filled day!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: No demand?
by "Hacker Joel-QA6240" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Non-electric hybrids
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: No demand?
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Segue to OT?
by Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Non-electric hybrids
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Lithiums in Parallel (was: RE: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go
Lithium!!!)
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Electric truck
by "J.J. Hayden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Segue to OT?
by mreish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: DC/DC use with Xantrex Link 10 Battery Monitor. Why??
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: DC/DC use with Xantrex Link 10 Battery Monitor. Why??
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Segue to OT?
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Has anyone done research on mini/micro turbines to recharge a
battery pack
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Non-electric hybrids
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: The little hybrid car that could -- TdS car at Philadelphia Auto Show
by "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Paralleling Li-ion
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Lithiums in Parallel (was: RE: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go
Lithium!!!)
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: AeroBatteries was: RE: FW: Busted in Blue Meanie!
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Database
by Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: DC/DC use with Xantrex Link 10 Battery Monitor. Why??
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Busted in Blue Meanie!
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Changing Subject Lines & Inappropriate Replies
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Changing Subject Lines & Inappropriate Replies
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Changing Subject Lines & Inappropriate Replies
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
An annual list of the world's greenest cars placed the top American car at
an impressive, uh, No. 10, while Japanese cars took all of the top five
spots. (But American cars dominated the Totally Un-Gay Testostero-Manly Mean
Machine list!) The American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy gave the
two-door hybrid Honda Insight top marks, based on fuel economy and
air-polluting emissions. The natural-gas-powered Honda Civic GX, Toyota's
Prius hybrid, the Honda Civic hybrid, and Toyota's gasoline-powered Corolla
rounded out the top five. The first U.S. car on the list was GM's Pontiac
Vibe -- built with a Toyota emissions system and engine -- which tied for
10th place with its Toyota twin, the Matrix. The Dodge Ram SRT10 pickup
truck was judged the un-greenest for the second year running (congrats!).
But even the best car got only 57 points on the council's 100-point scale.
Better luck next year.
straight to the source: Los Angeles Times, John O'Dell, 14 Feb 2006
straight to the source: MSNBC.com, 14 Feb 2006
see the rankings: GreenerCars.com
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Myles Twete [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> However I fail to see that a single 10ah Kokam-style cell
> would be much less likely to fail shorted than one of 10 1ah
> cells connected in parallel. At least in the case of
> multiple paralleled Lithiums, you "could" fuse them
> individually if you wish.
I don't know that the likelihood of failing shorted differs greatly
between them, or if it does, if it depends more on the manufacturer
and/or cell construction than cell capacity.
However, if a single large cell fails shorted, the mandatory cell
over/undervoltage monitor would immediately flag this condition. If one
of many parallelled cells fails shorted, it would be undetected until
revealed by the smoke and flames (in the worst case), or by a decrease
in the pack/module capacity (in the best case of the shorted cell's
interconnect opening gracefully).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Unfortunately, their website has been nothing more than a couple of
contact email addresses for quite a while now. :(
-Mike
On 2/13/06, Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Do you have a URL on them because I am having a hard time Googling
> > them....
>
>
> It's on John's sponsors page:
>
> http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/sponsors.php
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can only speculate, being that the AeroBatteries website is so lame...
But it looks to me like John's batteries are MIL-SPEC Hawker Odyssey PC925's.
www.enersys.com
27Ah (10hr rate), 26lbs(with *removable* metal jacket), Orange, 5mOhm, 2400Amps
short CKT, 6.64L x 7.05W x 5.04H inches. 500 cycles at 80%DoD.
Stay Charged!
Hump
Original Message -----------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Westlund
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 2:50 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Busted in Blue Meanie!
Joel Hacker wrote:
>John,
>Could you or someone else comment on Hawker >AeroBatteries.
What they are and what technology >makes them so "effecient"
or desirable to you?
I do know the ones John is using are rated to 26 AH at the 20 hour rate,
each weighing 24 pounds. I don't know what 1 hr rate or reserve capacity is,
but I'd more than love to have that data.
I imagine about 40 minutes reserve capacity, or basically in John Wayland's
car, using 25 amps to cruise 60 mph, would equate to 40 miles range. 25-30
miles if you throw some lead foot into the mix.
As for 'efficiency', they appear to have very low Peukert's numbers compared
to other AGM batteries, along with a very low internal resistance.
>I'm just curious as to what they are that makes them so attractive!
Specific power out the ass.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall that at 2,000 amps, they sag
to about 8V each. So that's 16 kW/battery, or for 29 of them under the hood
464 kW from the batteries.
Basically, 630 battery horsepower out of a pack weighing 696 pounds.
This is nearly 50% more power than Exide Orbitals per unit weight.
A dedicated drag car with about 1,200 pounds of these babies and the motors
and controllers to use it would be pulling high 6s or low 7s. I have a hunch
Dennis Berube is going to go this path.
These same batteries could just as easily be placed into a street car, but I
don't see anyone with deep pockets ready to aim for 10s or 9s yet. It would
take a very careful choice of glider, that's for damn sure. Probably twin
11"
WarP motors and a maxed out HV Zilla 2k, if they can both fit...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So hybrids will get people used to using electric drives in their
cars. Plug-in hybrids will get people used to driving on pure electric
most of the time. Right? Not anymore:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/02/60_mpg_ford_f15.php The hydaulic hybrid.
I know I'm being cynical, but hey.
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The U of W guys want to see sub 5 Second 0 to 60mph... that sounds very
doable.
Yea the power is enough to hunt for 12 seconds in the quater, But I doubt I
can get all the twist to the ground without breaking a transaxle or two.
MK3 Regs... are NOT the Cheapest product....They will be the most
programmable and will deliver battery data continuously. So.. for Dumb ass
Regs.... the Mk2B will still hold it's own.
If you don't need the data and the on the fly reprogrammability... You
sureley don't need to spend the extra $30 bucks.
Mk3 Digi regs will save you from having to dig out the battery box, and test
batteries, and let you investigate your entire pack from a PC hooked to the
RegBuss or to a PFC charger.
Power checks did one thing well, Equlaize. The Mk2B do that plus are temp
Comp'ed, have charger feed back, and have a low batt LED and latch. The Digi
regs will preform just like the MK2B Regs, if programmed once and left
alone.
The big point is having a PC display with all the batteries, voltage,
temp, High since last charge Low since last charge, and current setpopints
displayed, all in real time all being updated as you drive or charge, all on
one screen, and any Reg or setpoint can be hacked tweaked in the fly
manually. Of course you get to sit in the driver seat out of the weather,
doing all this with a key board instead of a screw driver and a DVM in the
Snow or rain or freezing cold.
The software exists.. and is free ware, Runs on old PCs in a DOS window
...it's in Qbasic. I have this runing at the shop.
I get 100 PCBs for the MK3 RevB today, If UPS can get here in the snow....
The high end EVers will kill for these features, The NimH and Lion And
Lipoly guys have to have it, and need ever more data points to service.
9 Orbs up front and it handles a LOT better than it did with 13 in teh rear.
Lots of spring rate and Shock tuning are going to be needed to get this lead
Sled to handle well.
oh and about $1500 worth of Corvette Brakes from West Coast Fiero...I like 1
G stops.... I crave 'em along with 2 G lauches...
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: EV filled day!
> Glad to hear you got that Fiero going. 25-30 miles range on
> 15 Orbitals looks to be pretty good. I can't help but wonder
> what range it would do on 28 of them, 19 in the rear, 9 in
> the front.
>
> Of course, handling might get a bit screwy.
>
> Any performance goals you are shooting for with this car? I
> imagine twin 8"s, Zilla 2k, and 25 to 28 Orbitals in a Fiero
> might do low to mid 13s with the right tires.
>
> I am interested in those new MkIII regs, but the price is
> very high. I'll wait and see how they compare with the old
> Powercheqs before I ever buy them, although I will upgrade
> to AGMs one of these days after my EV is going with its
> initial floodie pack and those AGMs will need regs.
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> >Aside from the chargers and R&D... I got some good EV
> >grining in this weekend also. We have My '85 Fiero
> >back on line, I have 15 Blue Orbs in it so far...
> >shooting for 25 on this pass and maybe 30 if I get
> >lucky.
> >
> >It's always good to get a upgrade done and light it
> >up and drive it out the shop door. I have 9 up front
> >and 6 at this time in the back. The back can
> >hold 16 to 19 batteries all by itself.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Speaking of Ford Hybrids, Has anyone heard about this one???
Love to know what law of physics they broke to make their claims...
http://www.newtechspy.com/articles06/hydraulichybrid.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Robert Wilson
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 12:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re:No demand?
Wanted to see and try a Ford Escape Hybrid this last weekend. Local FORD
dealer said He will neither stock nor sell the Hybrid. Tech training too
expensive for the expected sales.
This is not a small dealer. Largest within 100 miles.
So which comes first, the demand or the availability? Will not buy if
no warranty service, but no techs if don't buy.
Wonder how general this attitude will be?
Robert Wilson
----- Original Message -----
From: "M Bianchi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 9:19 AM
Subject: The little hybrid car that could -- TdS car at Philadelphia
Auto Show
> Local TdS entry makes good ;-) From the Philadelphia Inquirer ...
>
> The little hybrid car that could
> At Phila. Auto Show, a high school standout.
>
> Posted on Sun, Feb. 05, 2006
> By Akweli Parker
> Inquirer Staff Writer
>
> One of the most impressive cars at this week's Philadelphia Auto Show
> doesn't come from Japan, Germany or Detroit.
>
> It came from the auto shop at West Philadelphia High School.
> :
> :
>
> http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/13796737.htm
>
> --
> Mike Bianchi
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Any idea what "hydraulic" energy storage is? Most fluids have little or
no compressibility so they can't store much energy even at high
pressures. I wonder what they're doing here?
Danny
Mike Ellis wrote:
So hybrids will get people used to using electric drives in their
cars. Plug-in hybrids will get people used to driving on pure electric
most of the time. Right? Not anymore:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/02/60_mpg_ford_f15.php The hydaulic hybrid.
I know I'm being cynical, but hey.
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
See the "non-electric hybrids" thread started just a little while ago.
-Mike
On 2/14/06, Hacker Joel-QA6240 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Speaking of Ford Hybrids, Has anyone heard about this one???
> Love to know what law of physics they broke to make their claims...
>
> http://www.newtechspy.com/articles06/hydraulichybrid.html
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Robert Wilson
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 12:08 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re:No demand?
>
> Wanted to see and try a Ford Escape Hybrid this last weekend. Local FORD
> dealer said He will neither stock nor sell the Hybrid. Tech training too
> expensive for the expected sales.
> This is not a small dealer. Largest within 100 miles.
> So which comes first, the demand or the availability? Will not buy if
> no warranty service, but no techs if don't buy.
> Wonder how general this attitude will be?
> Robert Wilson
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "M Bianchi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 9:19 AM
> Subject: The little hybrid car that could -- TdS car at Philadelphia
> Auto Show
>
>
> > Local TdS entry makes good ;-) From the Philadelphia Inquirer ...
> >
> > The little hybrid car that could
> > At Phila. Auto Show, a high school standout.
> >
> > Posted on Sun, Feb. 05, 2006
> > By Akweli Parker
> > Inquirer Staff Writer
> >
> > One of the most impressive cars at this week's Philadelphia Auto Show
> > doesn't come from Japan, Germany or Detroit.
> >
> > It came from the auto shop at West Philadelphia High School.
> > :
> > :
> >
> > http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/13796737.htm
> >
> > --
> > Mike Bianchi
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Friday night, walking home from synagogue, I saw a segway.
He was coming towards me, and we both had a red light,
so all I could do is stare across the road at it...
He saw the stare (Did he know it was an EV-aware stare? :-),
and he waved (the way cyclists do, without hands off
the handlebar), but he sped on by...
lights, helmet.
Oh, and he was on the road, not the sidewalk,
so much for them wanting to market it as a
pedestrian aid.
I read the book, ReInventing the Wheel.
I took an interest, since Mr. Kamen is a cousin.
(distant one, oh well ;-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah I see- it's actually pneumatic. It's compressed nitrogen, but rather
than run compressed air to the motor directly they press hydraulic fluid
from the bottom of the tank into the motors and then into a low pressure
recovery tank.
I wonder why they called it "hydraulic" when "pneumatic" is far more
accurate. I guess they determined "hydraulic" would sound better to the
public, they may be right. Pneumatic does sound pretty whimpy.
Man, they must be have made some great advances in hydraulic
motors/compressors to be transmitting these levels of fluid power
efficiently. I always thought hydraulics were pretty lossy at high
speeds due to the resistance of the fluid moving through passages and
the piston or whatever, but I have no direct experience.
Danny
Danny Miller wrote:
Any idea what "hydraulic" energy storage is? Most fluids have little
or no compressibility so they can't store much energy even at high
pressures. I wonder what they're doing here?
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lithiums do short internally. Over heat is one way but already prevented
with BMS. Without it problems WILL occur. Not if.
Over discharging a cell and perhaps even reversing it will kill it
permanently. Continuing to use a spoiled cell in string will make it
work as resistor. It will heat nicely but not instantly. This is how it
works with one cell. Multiple mimiature "cells" paraller in a battery.
No fuses between just hard wired connection.
There are fuses perhaps in small cells. I'm not sure. Have not needed to
make such packs for looong time anymore :)
So if fuses are designed to blow when cell is going bad. When n pieces
of cells are in paraller and one shorts. All other cells paraller to
that will push all they got through there.
Amperage will be high and fuses might work... they might. Also the fuse
is rated for the small operating voltage. Not for HV packs. So if we
have multiple blown LV "fuses" paraller it does not help.
Doing packs from multiple paraller cells you are making a punch of
connections which are not similar. Again a place for troubles. Current
goes through where it can go best. So different Ahs through different
cells. And Voltage does not state the SOC with Lithium. Hysteresis does
not help. The cell which takes more load on it heats more. I smell
trouble all the way.....
We could do this scientificaly too and make a test to prove it bad.
I'll put up a test bench let you know what happened.
-Jukka
fevt.com
Myles Twete kirjoitti:
I had asked:
1) Has anyone ever seen or heard of a Lithium battery
actually shorting?
No comments yet, so I did a web search...okay, these things do short
sometimes.
But the consensus out there is that the manufacturers are supposed to (and
do) put mechanisms in place to prevent INTERNAL shorts from leading to any
catastrophic destruction. Typically their approach is to create an internal
polymer fusing link. Nevertheless, there are documented cases of alleged
internal shorts leading to fires or worse:
http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2005/HZB0501.pdf
However, the primary vulnerability to short circuit is externally generated
shorts. Further, even external circuit shorts aren't supposed to lead to
fire or explosion due to the mechanisms the manufacturer is supposed to put
in place.
The biggest vulnerability to internal short is due to externally-penetrating
objects. I'd guess the Kokam-style Lithiums would be particularly at risk
here given their lack of a hard shell. Lack of an externally-induced short,
internal shorts are said to be most likely due to overtemp which is
something that the manufacturer puts the internal polymer fuse in there to
handle.
2) What is the likelihood of a short as a failure mechanism
for a Lithium
batt?
As mentioned above, internal shorts are possible, but mechanisms are in
place by the manufacturer to lead the cell to fuse open in case of a short
or high heat.
In the above 2004 NTSB study, AC Propulsion had shipped some Lithium battery
modules and one had caught fire in shipment. Each of these "modules" was
composed of 2 "blocks" of 68 cylindrical Lithium cells connected in parallel
by spot welding to a grid at the top and bottom of each cell. Two blocks
were then bolted together to form a 7.4v module.
The NTSB conclusion for the fire source?
They couldn't be certain, but the preponderance of evidence led them to
believe that external metal "tools" floating around in the package had
managed to bridge the modules external contacts leading to an external short
circuit. This external short circuit then caused the package and batteries
to begin to burn, which led to cells going overtemp, etc. I.E. they
couldn't conclude that an internal short was the likely cause.
Clearly ACP wasn't too concerned about paralleling a mass of Lithium
batteries without fuses since each of their modules was configured as a
2S*(68P) config.
Maybe they've since changed this?
-Myles
--
Jukka Järvinen
R&D Director
Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
Sepänkatu 3
11710 RIHIMÄKI
FINLAND
VAT ID: FI18534078
jukka.jarvinen(a_t)fevt.com
mobile. +358-440-735705
fax. +358-19-735705
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVers
I have been reviewing the EV list posts and reading the material on the web
about electric powered âlightâ trucks and want some suggestions on the
feasibility of a two electric motor (1 per rear wheel), diesel-electric-battery
system. Something along the lines of the Allison system now in field tests in
a few metropolitan bus systems. Specifically the intended application is in a
tow vehicle for a travel trailer.
Any suggestions or web links would be appreciated.
Thanks
J.J. Hayden
http://home.earthlink.net/~jjhayden
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh, and he was on the road, not the sidewalk,
so much for them wanting to market it as a
pedestrian aid.
We've got one that I see around here occasionally that is painted it
the most hideous and garish colors I've ever seen. And I teach at an
art school -- I've seen ugly.
Mike
--
The Electric Motorcycle Portal
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/
Electric Motorcycle ListServ
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/listserv
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The problem is that both the negative for the power source (12V) and
the pack negative share the same contact. This provides a path so that
your pack negative and chassis is at the same potential. Not a good
idea. An isolation DC/DC converter will keep this path from happening,
and provide clean power to the link 10. By the way, if you hook up the
link 10 negative directly to the 12V negative with out fuse, you see a
big spark and Xantrex will fix the link 10 for $89 plus shipping....
Lynn
Currently between electric vehicles.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 1:06 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: DC/DC use with Xantrex Link 10 Battery Monitor. Why??
I am working on a nicely converted Ford Ranger. It is using a Link 10
Battery monitor with Cruising Equiptment Co on the bottom. In the
manual it shows 9.5 to 40vdc input. It has a 12v source so why is the
DC/DC needed?
Purify & stablize the energy source or keep the watts down? In any case
the DC/DC is blowing the 2 or 3 amp fuse we are putting in. To me that
means the DC/DC is bad. Is it really needed with this installation?
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It could be that your DC/DC is not isolated. The better ones are, some
cheap ones are not.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Farver
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 1:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: DC/DC use with Xantrex Link 10 Battery Monitor. Why??
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I am working on a nicely converted Ford Ranger. It is using a Link 10
> Battery monitor with Cruising Equiptment Co on the bottom. In the
> manual it shows 9.5 to 40vdc input. It has a 12v source so why is the
> DC/DC needed? Purify & stablize the energy source or keep the watts
> down? In any case the DC/DC is blowing the 2 or 3 amp fuse we are
> putting in. To me that means the DC/DC is bad. Is it really needed
> with this installation?
> Lawrence Rhodes
Yes for isolation. The Link 10's negative 12v power lead is connected
to the traction pack negative. If you do not use the DC/DC you are
connecting the frame of the car (12v negative) to the traction pack
negative. Touch the positive traction pack post, or any other terminal
and you'll get shocked.
Mark
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate Vegetable Oil Car.
> 415-821-3519
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> !DSPAM:43f23a25277931988019335!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You mean the city you live in wasn't built around Segway usage? =)
Seth Rothenberg wrote:
Friday night, walking home from synagogue, I saw a segway.
He was coming towards me, and we both had a red light,
so all I could do is stare across the road at it...
He saw the stare (Did he know it was an EV-aware stare? :-),
and he waved (the way cyclists do, without hands off
the handlebar), but he sped on by...
lights, helmet.
Oh, and he was on the road, not the sidewalk,
so much for them wanting to market it as a
pedestrian aid.
I read the book, ReInventing the Wheel.
I took an interest, since Mr. Kamen is a cousin.
(distant one, oh well ;-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My take is that the WREN line is smaller, The first link I showed has
one turning a 3 or 4 foot long prop!!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That sounds like a pneudraulic, or Oleo system, similar to an aircraft
landing gear strut.
Dave
From deep within our secret soul
do demons dwell and take their toll
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 1:48 PM
Subject: Re: Non-electric hybrids
Ah I see- it's actually pneumatic. It's compressed nitrogen, but rather
than run compressed air to the motor directly they press hydraulic fluid
from the bottom of the tank into the motors and then into a low pressure
recovery tank.
I wonder why they called it "hydraulic" when "pneumatic" is far more
accurate. I guess they determined "hydraulic" would sound better to the
public, they may be right. Pneumatic does sound pretty whimpy.
Man, they must be have made some great advances in hydraulic
motors/compressors to be transmitting these levels of fluid power
efficiently. I always thought hydraulics were pretty lossy at high speeds
due to the resistance of the fluid moving through passages and the piston
or whatever, but I have no direct experience.
Danny
Danny Miller wrote:
Any idea what "hydraulic" energy storage is? Most fluids have little or
no compressibility so they can't store much energy even at high
pressures. I wonder what they're doing here?
Danny
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The car seems to run ok in the video at
http://evteam.gambitdesign.com/albums/attack_build/car_001.wmv
The all-wheel-drive hybrid-drive kitcar is not bad -actually very good.
It has a turbodiesel rear axle, which gets 50mpg and runs on soybean oil,
and there are electric motors for the front axle. It appears to run ok.
Steve Love -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: The little hybrid car that could -- TdS car at Philadelphia Auto
Show
> On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 13:58:41 -0500, "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >On 14 Feb 2006 at 13:29, Neon John wrote:
> >
> >> Wow, what an utterly BS article. Should be named "The little hybrid
> >> that hasn't yet run". it's crap articles like this that go so far in
> >> dissipating credibility.
> >
> >Where does it say that it hasn't yet run? Did I miss something here? Or is
> >this perhaps a personal reaction to something else in the article?
>
> It's not in the article but in the flash presentation that is linked
> from the article.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
>
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Just a wild thought
If you had an internal mosfet in each cell that is internally switched
on. (IS there another PTC like component that has very low on-resistance?)
Now when the cells are assembled into a big block like AC propulsion's,
and 1 temp sensor in the middle, could overvoltage and undervoltage
protection be at the block level? On discharge the cell which begins to
get ahead of the others in current output starts to see a rise in
resistance, backs off current and the other cells step up. Could such a
passive system work? Or would the voltage drop accross the PTC device
really screw things up.
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On Tue, Feb 14, 2006 at 12:00:47PM -0800, Myles Twete wrote:
> I had asked:
>
> > 1) Has anyone ever seen or heard of a Lithium battery
> > actually shorting?
>
> Typically their approach is to create an internal
> polymer fusing link. Nevertheless, there are documented cases of alleged
> internal shorts leading to fires or worse:
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2005/HZB0501.pdf
It looks like the NTSB is implicating a conductive tool shipped with the
AC Propulsion Liion pack and not an internal short of a cell in this case.
>From that pdf:
"The Navy's Carderock Facility replicated internal cell failures caused
by electrically induced overheating of exemplar blocks and cells and found
that the cell temperatures increased during testing but not enough to
ignite a fire in packaging materials. However, tests showed that a
localized external short can provide enough energy that lasts long enough
to ignite packaging materials."
"... The tools included with the modules were conductive, and several were
long enough to bridge the positive terminal grid and the cell sidewall."
"Probable Cause
The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the
probable cause of the fire in a unit load device at the Federal Express
Corporation hub in Memphis, Tennessee, on August 7, 2004, was the failure
of the unapproved packaging used by AC Propulsion, Inc., which was
inadequate to protect the lithium-ion battery modules from short circuits
during transportation."
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Tim Humphrey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I can only speculate, being that the AeroBatteries website is
> so lame...
>
> But it looks to me like John's batteries are MIL-SPEC Hawker
> Odyssey PC925's. www.enersys.com
>
> 27Ah (10hr rate), 26lbs(with *removable* metal jacket),
> Orange, 5mOhm, 2400Amps short CKT, 6.64L x 7.05W x 5.04H
> inches. 500 cycles at 80%DoD.
I can also only speculate, but have a peek at the specs for this Hawker
25Ah aviation battery:
<http://www.securaplane.com/pdf/25Ah_flyer.pdf>
Note that this is a 24V 25Ah (C/1) battery and (at 25 degrees C) it
delivers a peak power of about 17.5kW at about 1250A and 13V, but the
performance plots go all the way out to about 2100A at 6V (0.5V/cell!).
Conventional wisdom is that a battery's peak power is attained when it
is loaded to half its nominal voltage (6V for a 12V battery), but the
Hawker plot suggests that their 24V battery actually peaks at about
6.5V/battery since the power drops off to "just" 17kW at 6V/battery (and
about 1450A).
Looking at MIL-PRF-8565/7A(AS), the performance spec for the military
version of this size battery, the battery *must* deliver a minimum of
1150A initially, and maintain at least 875A after 15s (and at least 725A
after 30s, etc.). So, it should be guaranteed that the battery internal
connections will survive at least 875A for 15s, and will survive 1150A
at least briefly. Hawker's test curves indicate that the intercell
connections will survive over 2000A briefly, but do not tell us for how
long. They do indicate that the plots were obtained per "Batspec 210
clause 3.9" and "IEC 952-1 clause 6", so with some digging one might
determine how long these discharge rates were sustained.
It is people like Rich, John, Dennis, and Rod who we rely on to collect
the real world data on how long the internal connections will survive X
amps before blowing or damaging the battery...
Cheers,
Roger.
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Would anyone like to help me review the data from the
harvesting of the EV album?
I think I extracted what's important, and there is only
a bit more refining to do to get a load file ready.
Thanks
Seth
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Does anyone have an installation guide for this Emeter? I suspect the DC/DC
is bad and need to replace it but I'd like to know why it failed. Lawrence
Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Farver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: DC/DC use with Xantrex Link 10 Battery Monitor. Why??
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
I am working on a nicely converted Ford Ranger. It is using a Link 10
Battery monitor with Cruising Equiptment Co on the bottom. In the manual
it shows 9.5 to 40vdc input. It has a 12v source so why is the DC/DC
needed? Purify & stablize the energy source or keep the watts down? In
any case the DC/DC is blowing the 2 or 3 amp fuse we are putting in. To
me that means the DC/DC is bad. Is it really needed with this
installation?
Lawrence Rhodes
Yes for isolation. The Link 10's negative 12v power lead is connected to
the traction pack negative. If you do not use the DC/DC you are
connecting the frame of the car (12v negative) to the traction pack
negative. Touch the positive traction pack post, or any other terminal
and you'll get shocked.
Mark
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
!DSPAM:43f23a25277931988019335!
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I stand corrected then. However, 1100 amps out of a 24 pound
Hawker is still very impressive. What voltage do they sag
to, at say, 1,000 amps?
Rich Rudman wrote:
>The Aero battery that Plasma Boy is using is good for
>only 1100 amps, and at that he has thermally Damaged
>them.
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Ahhh another person wanting others to solve his problems for him
rather than take his own initiative. Since you seem to have such an
email prowess I suggest this course of action. Each time a person
makes this mistake you can send them a personal note (on or off
list) letting them know that if they do not change their behavior
YOU will personally remove them from YOUR EVDL list by setting up a
filter that dumps all their messages from YOUR inbox without YOU
ever reading it. Problem solved... Those of us that aren't
bothered by such things won't have to listen to the complaints, and
you will have the EVDL you've always dreamed of.
I fail to see how this solves the problem of people MISSING posts
they would really like to read because they are inappropriately
titled. This simply guarantees that they would miss more.
Some of us (many, I would guess) do not have the time to read, or
even OPEN, each and every post. Accurate subject lines would
facilitate useful communication for everyone. I do not see why this
concept seems to rile you up.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
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Mark Grasser
Subject: Re: Changing Subject Lines & Inappropriate Replies
I must say I have to agree, if the subject changes so should the subject
line. I belong to another list, does the same thing. Interesting how the
next day the subject does not apply. Hmm
Ahhh another person wanting others to solve his problems for him rather
than take his own initiative. Since you seem to have such an email
prowess I suggest this course of action. Each time a person makes this
mistake you can send them a personal note (on or off list) letting them
know that if they do not change their behavior YOU will personally remove
them from YOUR EVDL list by setting up a filter that dumps all their
messages from YOUR inbox without YOU ever reading it. Problem solved...
Those of us that aren't bothered by such things won't have to listen to
the complaints, and you will have the EVDL you've always dreamed of.
I fail to see how this solves the problem of people MISSING posts they
would really like to read because they are inappropriately titled. This
simply guarantees that they would miss more.
Some of us (many, I would guess) do not have the time to read, or even
OPEN, each and every post. Accurate subject lines would facilitate useful
communication for everyone. I do not see why this concept seems to rile
you up.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
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Some are inconvenienced by others' failure to change the subject line, while
others are inconvenienced by the request to change it. All fine, but I
don't see any need for the two camps to build fortifications and lob insult
bombs at each other.
There's nothing wrong with a polite request to [please remember to change
the subject line when you change the thread.] Nothing wrong with a gentle
reminder that it's a good idea but in real life people mostly forget to do
this. But why do such requests and responses elicit such angry rhetoric? Is
there something about email that makes people forget to be civil?
Come on, folks, let's cut each other some slack. This is just not worth
getting indigestion over.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Lee Hart wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Why in the world anyone would fuse the cells for half of the
possible current drawn from them?
You *normally* size fuses for less than the peak current. Otherwise, the
fuse will never blow, even if there is an overload.
If you want to protect from catastrophic failure, like dead short with
currents much higher that highest normal peak current, it is easy to do.
But if expected peak is close to the max the battery can possibly dish
out, like in drag racing you practically shorting your batteries,
distinguishing between deliberate short and accidental is problematic.
...
But folks like the Monster Garage EVers are deliberately trying to get
as much current as possible for drag racing. This can put them outside
of the normal range of sanity. They are willing to take an "acceptable
risk" to win a race. (Jesse might have actually liked it better if the
lithium packs *did* explode or catch fire -- on camera, of course).
I see.
"We don't need no stinking fuses" is just right attitude for
this kind of application then. A fuse can spoil record setting. What's
more important?
Victor
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