EV Digest 5178
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Controlling ceramic heaters, was UHMW in heater core
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: critical mass-battery weight vrs amp hour ratings
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Busted in Blue Meanie!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Lithiums in Parallel (was: RE: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go
Lithium!!!)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: DC/DC use with Xantrex Link 10 Battery Monitor. Why??
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: DC/DC use with Xantrex Link 10 Battery Monitor. Why??
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Flooded Battery Questions From A Newbie
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: DC/DC use with Xantrex Link 10 Battery Monitor. Why??
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: critical mass-battery weight vrs amp hour ratings
by "Christopher Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Changing Subject Lines & Inappropriate Replies
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: looking for VW bug kit
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: capacitor packs
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Flooded Battery Questions From A Newbie
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) EV1 BMS and Temp Management
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: critical mass-battery weight vrs amp hour ratings
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Moderation at the EVDL
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: looking for VW bug kit
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Robison wrote:
> Taking the maximum case, how much current does a single row of 120V
> PTC elements draw at its terminal temperature, with no airflow?
Based on a sample of one, and one short-term test, with all four
elements of a rectangular ceramic heater in parallel at 120v:
1. With the stock wimpy 120vac fan: 120v at 9 amps steady-state.
Temperature of the elements: 185 deg.F.
2. With my car's heater blower motor: 132v at 12 amps steady-state.
Temperature of the elements: 178 deg.F.
3. With the car's heater blower motor off: 132v at 0.8 amps
steady-state.
Temperature of the elements: 220 deg.F.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 15 Feb 2006 at 8:26, paul wiley wrote:
> Would a change to the lighter battery be productive? Does one always
> use the biggest battery that one can fit?
Depends on your objective. Generally range is proportional to mass of lead.
Most people building practical commuter vehicles aim for between 1/3 and
1/2 total vehicle mass in lead and use flooded batteries. This gets you
typically 40-70 miles of max range, 30-60 miles useful range.
Of course the lead mass slows acceleration for a given controller and motor,
so if you are building a necksnapper you may want to give up range in order
to get faster acceleration. AGM batteries can provide more current
comfortably and are just about obligatory if you have a heavy foot, but in
relaxed driving they will have less range per unit of lead mass in addition
to the lower mass itself. At 20-30% mass in lead you might have only 12
miles of useful range but a 0-60 time of perhaps 8-10 seconds, assuming the
controller and motor suit.
These numbers are very rough and general, and yours will vary depending on
your vehicle and the drive parts fitted.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yea I will test it.
Both in Capcity and with the Battery blaster.
Keep in mind It most likely will get hurt.
Rich Rudman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 12:12 PM
Subject: RE: Busted in Blue Meanie!
> Have you had the opportunity to blast a 26ah Hawker??
>
> The only data I see on your site is when you tested some SVR14's and a
16ah Hawker.
>
> Yeah, the 16AH Genesis is an 1100amp battery, BUT it's also 7mOhm as
opposed to the 5mOhm of the 26AH. So OK, maybe not 2K amps but how about
1600?
>
> Stay Charged!!
> Hump
>
> Do you need one to test? I don't have Aero's but I do have Genesis 26'rs.
I'll send one if you want to test it.
>
>
>
>
> Original Message -----------------------
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Rich Rudman
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 2:28 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Busted in Blue Meanie!
>
> Halt!! Whoa STop it now....
>
> The Aero battery that Plasma Boy is using is good for only 1100 amps, and
at
> that he has thermally Damaged them.
>
> No 2000 amp run on those toy batteries.
>
> The Orbital XCD34 EXTREME Duty Purple lable Battery can do 1850 amps for
10
> seconds With a Watt peak of 13.57Kw and a Sag of 7.43 volts.
>
> But they Weight 40 lbs. Not 26 lbs.
>
> So ... we don't have 2000 amp Lead Acid 26 lbs batteries... But we do have
> 800 amp 16lbs Hawkers.
> Two of these come close to out watting the Orbs and are less weight.
>
> The Orbs are not going to set records, the Hawker, and Areo Hawker are.
>
> With Lions on the way... there is good logic in having Lead Records and
> Lithium Records. Only the Luck the Rich and the Sponsored will get to play
> with Lions for years. Lead can be done on most of our Salrys.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 11:50 AM
> Subject: Re: Busted in Blue Meanie!
>
>
> > Joel Hacker wrote:
> >
> > >John,
> >
> > >Could you or someone else comment on Hawker >AeroBatteries.
> > What they are and what technology >makes them so "effecient"
> > or desirable to you?
> >
> > I do know the ones John is using are rated to 26 AH at the
> > 20 hour rate, each weighing 24 pounds. I don't know what 1
> > hr rate or reserve capacity is, but I'd more than love to
> > have that data.
> >
> > I imagine about 40 minutes reserve capacity, or basically in
> > John Wayland's car, using 25 amps to cruise 60 mph, would
> > equate to 40 miles range. 25-30 miles if you throw some lead
> > foot into the mix.
> >
> > As for 'efficiency', they appear to have very low Peukert's
> > numbers compared to other AGM batteries, along with a very
> > low internal resistance.
> >
> > >I'm just curious as to what they are that makes them
> > >so attractive!
> >
> > Specific power out the ass.
> >
> > Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall that at 2,000
> > amps, they sag to about 8V each. So that's 16 kW/battery, or
> > for 29 of them under the hood 464 kW from the batteries.
> > Basically, 630 battery horsepower out of a pack weighing 696
> > pounds.
> >
> > This is nearly 50% more power than Exide Orbitals per unit
> > weight.
> >
> > A dedicated drag car with about 1,200 pounds of these babies
> > and the motors and controllers to use it would be pulling
> > high 6s or low 7s. I have a hunch Dennis Berube is going to
> > go this path.
> >
> > These same batteries could just as easily be placed into a
> > street car, but I don't see anyone with deep pockets ready
> > to aim for 10s or 9s yet. It would take a very careful
> > choice of glider, that's for damn sure. Probably twin 11"
> > WarP motors and a maxed out HV Zilla 2k, if they can both
> > fit...
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is what I see as available now. 3 18650's with a BMS protection chip &
charger. That's 2 ah. If you buy this it's about 50 bucks each but one
charger can charge 3 packs. So 10 chargers and 68 or so ah. This doesn't
seem so bad especially since you could have a 30 mile range scooter. If you
did it yourself the cost shouldn't be much more than a few hundred dollars.
Maybe less. If AC propulsion can do it with 6800 cells 96 cells should do
it for this little project. So that's 96 cells plus 32 bms plus the 10
chargers. About 68 amp hours. It would be a lot of soldering. Lawrence
Rhodes........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is DC/DC failure a problem with this setup? Right now we are blowing 2 and
3 amp fuses going to the dc/dc from the 12v source. Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 12:21 PM
Subject: RE: DC/DC use with Xantrex Link 10 Battery Monitor. Why??
The problem is that both the negative for the power source (12V) and
the pack negative share the same contact. This provides a path so that
your pack negative and chassis is at the same potential. Not a good
idea. An isolation DC/DC converter will keep this path from happening,
and provide clean power to the link 10. By the way, if you hook up the
link 10 negative directly to the 12V negative with out fuse, you see a
big spark and Xantrex will fix the link 10 for $89 plus shipping....
Lynn
Currently between electric vehicles.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 1:06 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: DC/DC use with Xantrex Link 10 Battery Monitor. Why??
I am working on a nicely converted Ford Ranger. It is using a Link 10
Battery monitor with Cruising Equiptment Co on the bottom. In the
manual it shows 9.5 to 40vdc input. It has a 12v source so why is the
DC/DC needed?
Purify & stablize the energy source or keep the watts down? In any case
the DC/DC is blowing the 2 or 3 amp fuse we are putting in. To me that
means the DC/DC is bad. Is it really needed with this installation?
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's a Datel UWR-12/250-012. A very small DC/DC Just a few watts output
but the emeter doesn't need much. Probably would protect the Emeter. It
was a nice clean installation in a black box. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 12:23 PM
Subject: RE: DC/DC use with Xantrex Link 10 Battery Monitor. Why??
It could be that your DC/DC is not isolated. The better ones are, some
cheap ones are not.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Farver
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 1:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: DC/DC use with Xantrex Link 10 Battery Monitor. Why??
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
I am working on a nicely converted Ford Ranger. It is using a Link 10
Battery monitor with Cruising Equiptment Co on the bottom. In the
manual it shows 9.5 to 40vdc input. It has a 12v source so why is the
DC/DC needed? Purify & stablize the energy source or keep the watts
down? In any case the DC/DC is blowing the 2 or 3 amp fuse we are
putting in. To me that means the DC/DC is bad. Is it really needed
with this installation?
Lawrence Rhodes
Yes for isolation. The Link 10's negative 12v power lead is connected
to the traction pack negative. If you do not use the DC/DC you are
connecting the frame of the car (12v negative) to the traction pack
negative. Touch the positive traction pack post, or any other terminal
and you'll get shocked.
Mark
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
!DSPAM:43f23a25277931988019335!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Let me start by introducing myself. My name is Brendan Miller and I live in
Phoenix, AZ. I started thinking seriously about doing a conversion about a
year ago (Ive been interested in them for a long time, and used to be a member
of the Arizona Solar Racing Team), and became a frequent lurker on this list
about 6 months ago. Ive been planning on doing a sports car conversion
(probably a Miata) with either AGM spiral cells or some other advanced
chemistry (I was thinking Cobasys NiMH or flooded NiCads though they seem to
be mythical).
While getting ready to make the plunge and keeping my eye out for good used
parts, I came across one of the motors I was considering (a 9.1 ADC) with a
120V 400A Curtis controller (not exactly what I was looking for, but still a
useable controller). I found out that I could also buy it attached to a
mothballed vehicle for a little more money
My, how things can change in the
course of a single phone call! So, if all goes as planned, Ill be the proud
owner of an S-10 this weekend with 20 6-volt flooded batteries (Trojans -
T-125s, I think), that were put out to pasture at least 6 years ago. Rather
than getting myself deep in debt, and possibly in over my head, Ive decided
Ill fix this up and get it running and play with it for a year or two. After
that, I may go back to my original sports car plan. Sorry truck guys (and
gals, if there are any around here), but trucks are both inefficient and no
fun!
As I understand, flooded batteries are domesticated beasts, and dont do well
fending for themselves in the wild. I guess my first question is: is there any
chance of bringing these back to life, even if its just enough to do testing
and drive a mile or two? Ive heard of a couple of methods of bringing them
back, most notably pulse charging (where would I get a charger like that?) and
some snake oil stuff you can put in them as a last resort. My assumption is
that the batteries were probably still young and alive when they were released
to the wild, so most of the damage should be a result of age and lack of food,
not being overworked. Are any methods recommended? Or should I forget that
notion and just accept that theyre only good for one thing, a core deposit?
If I do decide to get different batteries, does anyone have suggestions on
where I could find some good used ones in Arizona? I figure Id rather kill
some geriatric ones that are too old to play golf anymore than to go postal on
a bunch of poor kids. :)
My second question is how should I treat my pack (whether it is a new one, or
the old ones brought back to life), given my current driving regimen? Let me
elaborate. I only commute about 5 miles round trip (I know I should bike, but
sometimes I need my car for errands last minute at work
and Im lazy). On the
average week, between Monday and Friday, Im lucky if I put 30 miles on my car.
Should I charge a pack every night even though I only used about 8 or 10
percent of its capacity? Or should I run about 30 miles over the course of 4
or 5 days which I suspect would be 50% (give or take) discharged, and then
charge it? Itd probably get similar mileage use over the course of the
average weekend (30 miles or so). This leads me to another question. Would I
maybe be better off reducing the pack to 10 12-volt batteries, so that I could
fully exercise the batteries without leaving them partially discharged for days
on end? Will 12-volt floodies handle the 400 amps th!
at the controller might request (due to an overexuberant drivers foot
position)? The range should still be sufficient for what I plan to use it for.
If Im going to kill them anyway (at least thats what everyone on here says),
Id rather kill 10 than 20. Either way, whats the ideal amount of discharge?
i.e. is less always better, or is less only better up to a certain point? Does
repeatedly charging the batteries from 90% to full do more harm than good?
Should I charge to 95% every night and do an equalization charge every week or
every month? BTW, Ill be keeping my TDI for longer trips, so I shouldnt have
to worry about limiting my range by not charging every night, as I have a
backup vehicle.
Unfortunately, as I mentioned above, both my research and experience up to this
point hasnt been focused on flooded batteries. Im excited to get my new ride
running, and decided I should just ask for help, since I cant find anything in
the achieve answering my exact questions (though Im sure theyve been answered
before).
On another note, the vehicle comes with some kind of built in charger. I wont
know what it is until I get it, and may not know what it is when I get it!
What should I look for in a charger? Should I plan on buying an off-board
charger, too, for the sake of battery life? What kind of charging algorithm do
floodeds like? Just plain old CC followed by CV? If I bought a better
charger, Id want something I could use on a more advanced pack in the future,
too. What is the ideal amperage for a T-125 during the bulk charging part of
the cycle (and what is the min/max thats acceptable)? Am I correct saying
its between C/20 to C/5. Can you charge a battery as fast as you want as long
as you stay at or below the finishing voltage which would mean LOTS of amps
at first (thats more a curiosity question, than an applicable one but from
what I read, Im sure Rich could provide something to fully utilize my 200 amp
service thats a 2x4s width away from where I plan to cha!
rge :-p)? Anyone care to give me a quick lesson on floodeds? I know to water
and tighten connections often and not let them go below 80%, but what else am I
bound to do as a newbie to kill my first pack. Id rather learn from others
mistakes than my own!
Thanks in advance. Ive already learned so much from this list, and hope to
learn more.
-Brendan Miller
(EV coming soon)
Phoenix, AZ
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Staying alive long enough to actually see the Show, might be a good start.
We had breakers, When they failed we went totally hot to the cotrollers.
Not my idea....But... hey this is Hollywood the more smoke and fire the
better.
Also note that we had twin 1800 amp controllers. That's 3600 amps. The
batteries had thier current limits turn off, and we had 32 of them, we were
told 120 to 150 amps were on hand if we could pull them down that hard.
Clearly the Twin Old Zillas didn't pull hard enough to hurt the V29 Lions.
But we didn't know that at the time.....
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
> Lee Hart wrote:
> > Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> >
> >>Why in the world anyone would fuse the cells for half of the
> >>possible current drawn from them?
> >
> > You *normally* size fuses for less than the peak current. Otherwise, the
> > fuse will never blow, even if there is an overload.
>
> If you want to protect from catastrophic failure, like dead short with
> currents much higher that highest normal peak current, it is easy to do.
> But if expected peak is close to the max the battery can possibly dish
> out, like in drag racing you practically shorting your batteries,
> distinguishing between deliberate short and accidental is problematic.
>
> ...
> > But folks like the Monster Garage EVers are deliberately trying to get
> > as much current as possible for drag racing. This can put them outside
> > of the normal range of sanity. They are willing to take an "acceptable
> > risk" to win a race. (Jesse might have actually liked it better if the
> > lithium packs *did* explode or catch fire -- on camera, of course).
>
> I see.
>
> "We don't need no stinking fuses" is just right attitude for
> this kind of application then. A fuse can spoil record setting. What's
> more important?
>
> Victor
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks like the DC/DC is bad. That part should never draw more than
340mA at 9-18V, although at 250 mA output, it may be a bit small for the
link 10. If the DC/DC blows the fuse when not connected to the link 10,
there is a short in the DC/DC. Try powering your link 10 from a fused
external 12 battery (put it in a plastic battery box to prevent
connection to chassis ground.
Lynn "in between EV's for about 5 more days" Adams
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 10:56 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: DC/DC use with Xantrex Link 10 Battery Monitor. Why??
It's a Datel UWR-12/250-012. A very small DC/DC Just a few watts
output but the emeter doesn't need much. Probably would protect the
Emeter. It was a nice clean installation in a black box. Lawrence
Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 12:23 PM
Subject: RE: DC/DC use with Xantrex Link 10 Battery Monitor. Why??
> It could be that your DC/DC is not isolated. The better ones are,
> some cheap ones are not.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Mark Farver
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 1:20 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: DC/DC use with Xantrex Link 10 Battery Monitor. Why??
>
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
>> I am working on a nicely converted Ford Ranger. It is using a Link
>> 10
>
>> Battery monitor with Cruising Equiptment Co on the bottom. In the
>> manual it shows 9.5 to 40vdc input. It has a 12v source so why is
>> the
>
>> DC/DC needed? Purify & stablize the energy source or keep the watts
>> down? In any case the DC/DC is blowing the 2 or 3 amp fuse we are
>> putting in. To me that means the DC/DC is bad. Is it really needed
>> with this installation?
>> Lawrence Rhodes
>
>
> Yes for isolation. The Link 10's negative 12v power lead is connected
> to the traction pack negative. If you do not use the DC/DC you are
> connecting the frame of the car (12v negative) to the traction pack
> negative. Touch the positive traction pack post, or any other
> terminal and you'll get shocked.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
>> Reedmaker
>> Book 4/5 doubler
>> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate Vegetable Oil Car.
>> 415-821-3519
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>> !DSPAM:43f23a25277931988019335!
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul Wiley wrote:
> Is there ever a time that a "critical mass" is reached and the vehicle
is
> to heavy for the battery pack with the current amp hour rating?
> What i am getting at is i chose a 40 ah hawker, @ 38 lbs each. The
next
> battery down is 26 ah @ 26 lbs. Would a change to the lighter battery
be
> productive? Does one always use the biggest battery that one can fit?
> Just wondering before I spend some money!
Hi Paul,
As you might have expected, the irrefutable answer to your question is
"it depends". ;^)
If you look only at the batteries you will come to the surprising
conclusion that one solution maximizes *both* maximum performance and
maximum range - that solution being to carry as many batteries as you
can cram in there.
The batteries are obviously your source of energy, so it makes sense
that increasing the battery-to-vehicle-weight ratio (B/VW) makes for
maximum range. This is also borne out by everyone's experience. More
lead means more range.
The batteries are also your source of power - not your motor, as is true
for ICE vehicles. A battery has a maximum power output and has a
constant weight - its own weight/power ratio. It stands to reason that
if you are talking about one battery type, having more of your weight
made up of batteries improves your overall weight/power ratio and
therefore your performance.
Of course all of this assumes that batteries are not your limiting
factor. You will go farther *and* faster by maximizing your B/VW, but
only if your motor and controller are not standing in the way of your
batteries, you can get traction, etc. For example, adding a second
string of Optimas to a performance EV doubles its power while less than
doubling its overall weight, and certainly increases its range. But
*only* if you upgrade from a Z1k to a Z2k to make use of the additional
amps available.
If you're concerned more about range, just load the vehicle with as much
battery as you can, and use a motor/controller that will provide the
power you need at that total weight.
So the answer to your question is to look at several configurations and
determine what is the limiting factor, for your application, for each.
In your case you can go to the Hawker site and look through their
extensive data for each battery type to see what kind of performance
each has at various current draws. I'm thinking the 40 Ah batteries
might be the better choice if they give you adequate performance without
going to pricey high voltage components.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Put your money where your mouth is: Make me a moderator.
damon henry wrote:
From: Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Changing Subject Lines & Inappropriate Replies
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 07:07:40 -0800
Nice try, but a while back I suggested people not hit 'Reply' on
messages when it wasn't actually a _reply_; most people just wanted
to post a new (unrelated) topic to the list, but found the easiest
(laziest) option was to simply hit 'reply' on any random message.
This causes threading problems since many email clients use the
'In-Reply-To' field of the email to properly thread the messages.
Responses were typical: "Your email client is broken" (it's not, and
I've _written_ email clients), or "golly, works okay for me, why
should I change?" This problem is persistent and wide-spread.
I suspect your suggestion will also fall by the wayside, though I
agree with you whole-heartedly. I often have the opposite problem:
An interesting thread buried inside an uninteresting one.
Personally, I'd like to see the moderation rules of the list changed
so that persons who simply hit reply and respond with something that
is OT to the _thread_ be warned, and (if it persists) unsubscribed
from the list.
Ahhh another person wanting others to solve his problems for him
rather than take his own initiative. Since you seem to have such an
email prowess I suggest this course of action. Each time a person
makes this mistake you can send them a personal note (on or off list)
letting them know that if they do not change their behavior YOU will
personally remove them from YOUR EVDL list by setting up a filter that
dumps all their messages from YOUR inbox without YOU ever reading it.
Problem solved... Those of us that aren't bothered by such things
won't have to listen to the complaints, and you will have the EVDL
you've always dreamed of.
your welcome
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
that's cause it is not correct...
it is www.grassrootsev.com
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hacker Joel-QA6240" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 6:22 AM
Subject: RE: looking for VW bug kit
> Steve,
>
> Your link www.grassrootaev.com does not work for some reason...
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee offered:
> Ten cells in parallel supplying 100 amps won't all deliver 10
> amp each...You could conceivably have one
> supplying 1 amp while another supplies 20 amps. So, your total current
> rating for the parallel pack is not just the sum of the
> individual cell
> fuses (ten 10amp fuses = a 100amp pack) -- you might only be able to
> draw 20 amps before one of the 10amp fuses blows.
But Lee, aren't you discounting the very real effect that with massively
parallel connections between batteries (e.g. the spot-welded grid used on
the ACP 68P2S Lithiums I referred to) it's highly unlikely that you'd see
the kind of current variance you refer to if the batteries are of similar
capacity and age? With massively parallel interconnects, any cell that
begins delivering too much current or for too long begins to see its voltage
drop slightly and its buddy cells will pick up the slack. This effect
shouldn't be ignored. Agreed, if you add extra external fusing for each
battery you reduce this balancing effect, but even with fuses, there will
still be a balancing effect which mitigates the variance between cells. The
more massive the paralleling, the more insignificant the resistance of fuses
become, with the effective resistance between a cell and its collective
brethren approaching the resistance of a single fuse.
With the cylindrical 18650 style cells mentioned, by relying on the internal
battery thermal, overpressure and electrical fusing you wouldn't need
anything more than spot-welded grid connections between batteries. The
advantages here may well outweigh the disadvantages for some applications.
External projectile damage to battery shell leading to unfused short is the
biggest risk. OTOH, perhaps the reliability of the manufacturer's
overcurrent, overpressure and overtemp short circuit protections isn't
enough to depend on..?
Kokam refers to paralleling their LiPo batts, e.g.:
http://www.kokam.com/english/product/charge.html
There's also a tutorial which describes paralleling the Kokam batts:
http://www.aurorra.co.uk/reference/Lipo%20Cells%20-%20Lithium%20Polymer.pdf
No fuses.
Just interconnects.
Good policy? Perhaps not...but by keeping interconnect resistance low,
current sharing between batts should be high.
Add fuses and it still seems to me that the buddies will pull up their
brethren in parallel avoiding wide current variance.
As I see it, there are advantages to massively paralleling the batteries
first, then stacking them in series. Those advantages do have tradeoffs as
mentioned.
But I just don't see that current hogging would be 10:1 or anything close to
that as argued.
Again, I still don't see how 10 1ah Lithium batteries in parallel (for
example) would be more of a risk to internal short than 1 10ah Lithium
battery. A look at a Kokam cell's construction makes it more perplexing why
it would add risk.
Perhaps I just don't get it.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
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--- Begin Message ---
How do you plan to test these - surely they have been put in the dumpster
(skip) for a reason. Before you hang them on your 200volt traction pack -
or use them as a P.F correction capacitor in your charger you may want to
check they are not going to go "BOOM" when you make that final connection
!!!
John
PS my ceramic heater core is doing just fine.... luverly heating... ahhhhhh
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: capacitor packs
Matt Milliron wrote:
Due to a lucky dumpster dive I am the proud owner of 48 GE
capacitors. I would like to make a cap pack.
These aren't really good for energy storage; not enough farads per
pound. But they would be great for building chargers, or for the input
filter capacitors to a PWM controller.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.6/257 - Release Date: 10/02/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brendon, Your in luck! Our next Phoenix Electric Auto Association meet we will
be talking about what works for conversion EV's. Please join us, it will be the
first Saturday of the month. Please visit www.phoenixeaa.com and send an email
our President Jim with your Legal Name and birthdate (I know kind of wierd, SRP
where we meet wants this information, but they offer us a real nice meeting
facility).
What part of the velley are you in? I'm in Glendale, so if I could help out
any I'd be glad to.
As far as the batteries, unfortunately they're almost deffinitely done for.
You might be able to get them to charge up enough to confirm everything works
though. I've done this with golf carts before where I was able to get dead
batteries to take enough power so I could move the thing around and find out
that everything worked, but if they're let to sit and die they really never
come back. Come to the meeting or contact me off the list and I'll let you know
who to talk to about batteries.
Later,
Ricky
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Let me start by introducing myself. My name is Brendan Miller and I live in
Phoenix, AZ. I started thinking seriously about doing a conversion about a year
ago (Ive been interested in them for a long time, and used to be a member of
the Arizona Solar Racing Team), and became a frequent lurker on this list about
6 months ago. Ive been planning on doing a sports car conversion (probably a
Miata) with either AGM spiral cells or some other advanced chemistry (I was
thinking Cobasys NiMH or flooded NiCads though they seem to be mythical).
While getting ready to make the plunge and keeping my eye out for good used
parts, I came across one of the motors I was considering (a 9.1 ADC) with a
120V 400A Curtis controller (not exactly what I was looking for, but still a
useable controller). I found out that I could also buy it attached to a
mothballed vehicle for a little more money
My, how things can change in the
course of a single phone call! So, if all goes as planned, Ill be the proud
owner of an S-10 this weekend with 20 6-volt flooded batteries (Trojans -
T-125s, I think), that were put out to pasture at least 6 years ago. Rather
than getting myself deep in debt, and possibly in over my head, Ive decided
Ill fix this up and get it running and play with it for a year or two. After
that, I may go back to my original sports car plan. Sorry truck guys (and gals,
if there are any around here), but trucks are both inefficient and no fun!
As I understand, flooded batteries are domesticated beasts, and dont do well
fending for themselves in the wild. I guess my first question is: is there any
chance of bringing these back to life, even if its just enough to do testing
and drive a mile or two? Ive heard of a couple of methods of bringing them
back, most notably pulse charging (where would I get a charger like that?) and
some snake oil stuff you can put in them as a last resort. My assumption is
that the batteries were probably still young and alive when they were released
to the wild, so most of the damage should be a result of age and lack of food,
not being overworked. Are any methods recommended? Or should I forget that
notion and just accept that theyre only good for one thing, a core deposit?
If I do decide to get different batteries, does anyone have suggestions on
where I could find some good used ones in Arizona? I figure Id rather kill
some geriatric ones that are too old to play golf anymore than to go postal on
a bunch of poor kids. :)
My second question is how should I treat my pack (whether it is a new one, or
the old ones brought back to life), given my current driving regimen? Let me
elaborate. I only commute about 5 miles round trip (I know I should bike, but
sometimes I need my car for errands last minute at work
and Im lazy). On the
average week, between Monday and Friday, Im lucky if I put 30 miles on my car.
Should I charge a pack every night even though I only used about 8 or 10
percent of its capacity? Or should I run about 30 miles over the course of 4 or
5 days which I suspect would be 50% (give or take) discharged, and then
charge it? Itd probably get similar mileage use over the course of the average
weekend (30 miles or so). This leads me to another question. Would I maybe be
better off reducing the pack to 10 12-volt batteries, so that I could fully
exercise the batteries without leaving them partially discharged for days on
end? Will 12-volt floodies handle the 400 amps th!
at the controller might request (due to an overexuberant drivers foot
position)? The range should still be sufficient for what I plan to use it for.
If Im going to kill them anyway (at least thats what everyone on here says),
Id rather kill 10 than 20. Either way, whats the ideal amount of discharge?
i.e. is less always better, or is less only better up to a certain point? Does
repeatedly charging the batteries from 90% to full do more harm than good?
Should I charge to 95% every night and do an equalization charge every week or
every month? BTW, Ill be keeping my TDI for longer trips, so I shouldnt have
to worry about limiting my range by not charging every night, as I have a
backup vehicle.
Unfortunately, as I mentioned above, both my research and experience up to this
point hasnt been focused on flooded batteries. Im excited to get my new ride
running, and decided I should just ask for help, since I cant find anything in
the achieve answering my exact questions (though Im sure theyve been answered
before).
On another note, the vehicle comes with some kind of built in charger. I wont
know what it is until I get it, and may not know what it is when I get it! What
should I look for in a charger? Should I plan on buying an off-board charger,
too, for the sake of battery life? What kind of charging algorithm do floodeds
like? Just plain old CC followed by CV? If I bought a better charger, Id want
something I could use on a more advanced pack in the future, too. What is the
ideal amperage for a T-125 during the bulk charging part of the cycle (and what
is the min/max thats acceptable)? Am I correct saying its between C/20 to
C/5. Can you charge a battery as fast as you want as long as you stay at or
below the finishing voltage which would mean LOTS of amps at first (thats
more a curiosity question, than an applicable one but from what I read, Im
sure Rich could provide something to fully utilize my 200 amp service thats a
2x4s width away from where I plan to cha!
rge :-p)? Anyone care to give me a quick lesson on floodeds? I know to water
and tighten connections often and not let them go below 80%, but what else am I
bound to do as a newbie to kill my first pack. Id rather learn from others
mistakes than my own!
Thanks in advance. Ive already learned so much from this list, and hope to
learn more.
-Brendan Miller
(EV coming soon)
Phoenix, AZ
---------------------------------
Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!
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--- Begin Message ---
I am curious about the EV1. Did it have any sort of battery management:
- overcharge/undercharge protection
- battery balancing
- temp compensation
Also, did it have any facility for heating or cooling the batteries while
charging. E.g. In the wintertime did it warm the batteries while charging?
thanks
Don
Don Cameron
Director - Project Septimus
Cameron Motorworks - a Division of CSL
tel: +001 250 889 2480
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.cameronmotorworks.com <http://www.cameronmotorworks.com/>
sms: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello Paul,
There is a good gage of battery power, that we have used back in the 60's
and 70's that it seems that nobody uses as far as I know on this list uses.
It's the ratio of battery watts per the weight of the battery. If you have
a battery that has 25 watts per lb, then you will have a good battery
performer.
Assuming your Hawkers at 12 volts at 40 AH, therefore 12 x 40 = 480 watthr.
The 480 / 38 lbs = 12.6 wh per lb. Also 12 x 26 = 312 wh.
312/26 = 12 wh per lb.
For example of my batteries I had a one time which was the best performer I
ever had, was a 2 volt cell at 300 AH at 30 lbs each. Therefore 2v x 300ah =
600wh. 600wh / 30 = 20wh per lb.
I had 2700 lbs of these cells in my EV that could drive the vehicle at a top
speed of 92 mph and ran a endurance test around a GM track back in Detroit
for 1056 miles in 24 hours.
These batteries than ran the car for the next 10 years.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "paul wiley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evdl" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 9:26 AM
Subject: critical mass-battery weight vrs amp hour ratings
> Is there ever a time that a "critical mass" is reached and the vehicle is
> to heavy for the battery pack with the current amp hour rating?
> What i am getting at is i chose a 40 ah hawker, @ 38 lbs each. The next
> battery down is 26 ah @ 26 lbs. Would a change to the lighter battery be
> productive? Does one always use the biggest battery that one can fit?
> Just wondering before I spend some money!
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> What are the most popular cars? Find out at Yahoo! Autos
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Put your money where your mouth is: Make me a moderator.
Newsflash: this is essentially an unmoderated forum. I know that we have
an official moderator, and I know he does his best, but he has NO actual
control over anything and cannot ban people for being offensive, calling
for violence on others, etc. I've seen participants berate and insult
him (and others) without any consequence despite the moderator's desire
to ban the miscreant.
I think it would be best to drop any false semblence of moderation here
as there is essentially none anyway. At this point, one either polices
oneself or one does not. Just my .02
-Ken Trough
V is for Voltage
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For VW kits or any other small EV, try Flight Systems. They have a EV
division, that makes ev kits. They also a large stock of used parts and
motors. They provide the EV-1 motor controllers.
There WEB site does not work for some reason, so just type "Flight Systems"
in your search engine.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hacker Joel-QA6240" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 6:22 AM
Subject: RE: looking for VW bug kit
> Steve,
>
> Your link www.grassrootaev.com does not work for some reason...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of STEVE CLUNN
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 6:54 AM
> To: [email protected]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: looking for VW bug kit
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "charles w jarvis III"
> > Hey folks. Long time lurker, "coming out" (of lurk that is) just long
> > enough to look around for anyone with spare EV parts or kits for a 74
> > VW bug. I already have a sep-ex controller, (GE 72v 350amp) so I'm in
> > need of a sep-ex motor, adapter plate and coupler.
> >
> > Before the flood of advice comes in.........YES, I know this will make
>
> > for a pitiful performer.
> Hi Sir Charles
> as long as you know that then there's no problem , you are trying to
> build your ev on your budget , that's ok , the problem comes when you
> try to do it with stuff that just won't work , then you west your time
> and money ,
> ending with nothing . But as your on the list , this won't happen :-)
> .
>
>
> But hey....Im broke and on a shoestring budget! and It's mostly for
> just around town anyway. Mostly back roads and 45 mph tops! (most in
> town is 35).
> if anyone does have any of these needed parts. Please contact me off
> list as I am currently two full months behind on reading here! ugh.
> >
> One reason that people take the time to write so much is that they
> believe there are many Lurkers doing the same thing and the advice is
> for many , so maybe people could post and send directly to you , which I
> am doing . As there are probable more people doing what your doing that
> there are building hi performance EV's , your post about how you pull
> this off may be helpful to a lot of Low budget EV'ers.
>
> .My first conversion was my "little red rider" mower I used a 96 volt
> Ametek motor and a BUNCH of 12ah scooter batteries. Only had a simple
> on-off for speed control and the 3speed. Starting in 2nd or 3rd would
> pull the front wheels off the ground! Lots of fun, but no match for the
> "HMGT"!
> looking for a good 24/36 volt motor for it and a pwm controller big
> enough to let me continue to pull trailers around the yard with it.
> >
> This would be a good place to try out a contactor controller with some
> heavy coils for resistors to get the hang of this type of controller ,
> but your car motor will take another type , how big is this sep ex
> motor.
>
> >
> > anyway, running on empty here as its 3am now. going back into "lurk"
> mode
> > again. Thanks for all the great info here. The EVDL has kept me in
> "dream
> > mode" for the last two years. hoping to get out of "dream mode" and
> into
> > real world EV'ing!
> >
> Looks like your 2 big steps are a controller for the sep-ex motor and a
> adapter plate
> With a low power system / home made controller the clutch becomes more
> important, I sell a video that shows how to make a adapter plate which
> if
> you video your project and let me us the footage you could have for
> free.
> www.grassrootaev.com
> Steve Clunn
>
>
>
> > Thanks for listening to me ramble. I tend to do that when tired. :-)
> >
> >
> > Sir Charles
> >
> > ___
> > / \
> > (o\!/o)
> > [] []
> >
> > (the above art looks right in my out going email here...hope it turns
> out
> > ok on the list. it's suposed to be the front of a VW Beetle)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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