EV Digest 5199
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) EVDL appears on Bombay TV
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: White Zombie to Elude the Police this Saturday!
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re Hybrid car that could -at Philly Auto show.
by "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Shunts
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) re: I think I am going to need a lot of lead
by Jimmy Argon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Small Bad Dumb Charger (was: RE: Big ...)
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) article: New Electric Supercar: Mullen GT
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: new member
by "randy gardner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Has anyone tried switching thru series strings of small AGMs to
maximize range?
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Using an AC rated fuse in DC.
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Has anyone tried switching thru series strings of small AGMs to
maximize range?
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Shunts
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Using an AC rated fuse in DC.
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Using an AC rated fuse in DC.
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Optima YT's
by "John Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: new member
by Jay Snable <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: I think I am going to need a lot of lead ...
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Using an AC rated fuse in DC.
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Flooded batt MSDS (was: Has anyone tried switching thru series
strings of small AGMs to maximize range?)
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Flooded batt MSDS
by Cory Cross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Flooded batt MSDS (was: Has anyone tried switching thru series
strings of small AGMs to maximize range?)
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) OT: Re: Flooded batt MSDS
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Other sources for Electrical Components (was: Using an AC rated fuse
in DC)
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Plus and Minus
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Dean Kamen's sterling generator,
Govenators green website & Robert Q Riley
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) re: I think I am going to need a lot of lead
by Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: ppt gen
by Aaron NMLUG-EV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Using an AC rated fuse in DC.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Hawker Battery
by paul wiley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) Re: White Zombie to Elude the Police this Saturday!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Today's diversion:
The EVDL has spread so much EV knowledge around the world that
apparently even Bollywood has taken notice.
Check out this high quality film from India:
http://tinyurl.com/htezz
Enjoy! 8^)
-Ken Trough
V is for Voltage
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well fuck me sideways with a railroad tie. I never figued
I'd ever see or hear of cops chasing a Hi Pro EV, at least
not so soon! :-)
Please let us know how it goes. The cops have no chance in
hell of catching that thing, at least not until the
batteries run low. <g>
Will that video ever be made available after it is shot? It
would be a real hoot to watch and post on various message
boards to let people know what this technology can do...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think I would look into an onboard ultracap bank = 30% of pack
capacity. And a pair of DC-DC converters.
You could drive into a "fill station" and from their dump pack to get to
about 75% full on your batteries, At that point the batteries won't
accept faster and the balanceing infrastructure could be overloaded.
Then the ultra caps are filled.
As you drive away the caps supply the power and/or finish the battery
charge. You would have some space in the caps before the first stoplight
for regen energy, you could handle massive regen currents and the
batteries would probably last a little longer with the peak shaving the
caps are capable of. This would require "capacitor bank mangement"
The dual dc-dc's are to push regen into the caps when the caps are at a
voltage higher than the regen energy created, this gives regen braking
at low speeds. The other direction is to drain the caps below the pack
voltage during finishing and maintain a certain level in the caps for
launches. :-)
I have seen bidirectional dc-dc's in books. maybe rich can achieve the
power levels we would need for EV currents.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is another link about the awd-hybrid kitcar built by Philly highschool
students.
It is on the CBS News inthe sci-tech section on:
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml
The car seems to run ok, in the video at
http://evteam.gambitdesign.com/albums/attack_build/car_001.wmv
The all-wheel-drive hybrid-drive kitcar is not bad for what it is -actually
very good. It has a turbodiesel rear axle, which gets 50mpg and runs on soybean
oil,
and there are electric motors for the front axle. It appears to run ok.
Steve Love -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: The little hybrid car that could -- TdS car at Philadelphia Auto
Show
> On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 13:58:41 -0500, "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >On 14 Feb 2006 at 13:29, Neon John wrote:
> >> Wow, what an utterly BS article. Should be named "The little hybrid
> >> that hasn't yet run". it's crap articles like this that go so far in
> >> dissipating credibility.
Not so.
Steve Love -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Robison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> This is an ignorant question, but I'm curious ... how would
> the Link1000 react to seeing voltages above 50mv (i.e.
> currents above 500A)? I have a Z2k, which can draw currents
> up to 1600A from the pack, for a total of 160mv across the
> shunt as long as it doesn't overheat. Is this safe for the
> device, and will it skew the energy measurement by much?
I don't know; the E-Meters I've experience with saturate at -511A if you
draw more than 500A through the stock 500A 50mV shunt. So, if the
Link1000 uses the same circuitry as the Link10/E-Meter, it appears that
it can tolerate something over 50mV at the current input, but I really
don't know just how much. I suspect <200mV is unlikely to fry anything,
but... ;^>
This will skew the energy measurement somewhat, but since one typically
isn't pulling over 500A for a very large percent of their drive it
probably won't be too bad.
500A for 1 second is 0.139Ah, so you were drawing 1000A for 10 sec and
the meter only saw 500A of it, it would think your pack is 1.39Ah less
discharged than it really is. On a 40Ah string this is about 3.5%
error. So, it probably won't be too much of an issue for the fuel guage
bargraph due to its coarseness, but you could notice it in the Ah/Wh
reading and/or logged data.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve,
I bought the pack in 93-94 and used it in the Solar and Electric 500 for 6
years. Besides that I only did donuts in my yard until I started to
commute with it. I had them for 6 years and 90% still tested good on a
load tester when I sold them to someone that used them in a solar system.
I know I had over the 250 cycles, the secret is to keep charging and hard
at least once a month!
Jimmy
From: "Steven Ciciora" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: re: I think I am going to need a lot of lead ...
What kind of life did you get out of your batts with
that commute?
Thanks,
Steve
--- Jimmy Argon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Steve,
> Here is some data:
> I drove the Voltbuggy 45 miles round trip to work
> for a couple years.
> (23) 6v t125s,
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
I would like to have the circuit. I have 30 batteries sitting on my floor
waiting for my charger.. (hint, hint).
I've charged them up using a 12 v battery charger, 10 at time in series, but
the charger never gets above 12.8v.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
Lee Hart wrote-
> I can publish the circuit if you need it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Now if they could do one that we could afford I might be interested:
http://www.jalopnik.com/cars/alternative-energy/new-electric-supercar-mullen-gt-155986.php
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey, thanks for the link, I learned a lot.
I've still got some more stuff to read before I do anymore, thanks again
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: new member
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 12:49:40 -0800
Check out the FAQ: http://www.evparts.com/faq/
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
_________________________________________________________________
Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The T105-size AGM results will be interesting to read in part because I had
thought of replacing the T105s in the Electra Van at some point with a sealed
battery pack. I just find flooded batt emissions to be a negative even with a
battery box fan, careful charging, etc. And the manufacturer's own MSDS don't
try to suggest that the emissions aren't toxic or hazardous. Repeated exposures
(even low-level) are to be avoided; that would be my admonition to anyone in
the EV community in denial of this.
Ok thanks for your replies and forebearance,
Mark Freidberg
Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Mark Freidberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Except that each string regenerate a little during the 2/3
> of the time that the other two strings are discharging. So
> when the rotary switch comes back around for a 2nd pass thru
> the 3 strings, there would be a bit more runtime added. Then
> a little more on the 3rd pass, etc. That's my guess-estimate
> anyway......
The key word here is "bit", as in "tiny bit" ;^>
Remember, 2/3 of the time is still just 20min (and that is to 100%
DOD!), so you deplete the first string in 10min, then let it rest for
20min. I seriously doubt that you would get as much as 1-2Ah more from
a U1 AGM after letting it rest for 20min, but this is an easy experiment
to perform with a single U1 battery if you really want to get an idea of
how much capacity recovery can be achieved with such an AGM.
I don't have any U1s handy, but I am actually running a discharge test
on some T105-sized (~213Ah) AGMs at the moment, so I'll let them rest
for 20-30min after they hit 1.75V/cell and then I'll restart the 75A
discharge and see how much additional capacity I get. I'll post the
result later today, or more likely, tomorrow.
Cheers,
Roger.
---------------------------------
Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, I know this is normally bad. However I cannot seem to find a source
for Bussman KLM-1 type fuses (10k AIR rated DC/AC, 500 volts). The only
thing sold that I can find is the KTK type fuses (100k AIR RMS, AC, 600
volts).
300 volt battery, Hawker Genesis. This is to protect the Dolphin.
Is a 100k AC rated fuse going to clear a 1 amp short? If not, anyplace I
can get KLM type fuses?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark wrote -
> And the manufacturer's own MSDS don't try to suggest that the emissions
> aren't toxic or hazardous. Repeated exposures (even low-level) are to be
> avoided; that would be my admonition to anyone in the EV community in denial
> of this.
>
>
> Ok thanks for your replies and forebearance,
>
> Mark Freidberg
Mark
Could you elaborate a little more on what emissions you consider to be toxic or
hazardous?
Its my understanding, and also after looking at the USDS
http://www.trojan-battery.com/Tech-Support/MaterialDataSafetySheets.aspx
that there is nothing hazardous that is released. Yes if you touch the lead
terminals there is lead contact, but I think that we all know that, and in any
case, nobody I know licks the terminals.... And yes the electrolyte is also
dangerous, we all know it is an acid and take precautions to keep it off our
fingers and clothes.
During charging O2 and Hydrogen are released, and yes they can be dangerous,
that is why we talk about having fans to clear the gases. But other than that
in normal usage, there is nothing hazardous.
If the battery is broken, or set on fire that becomes a totally different story.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Robison wrote:
> how would the Link1000 react to seeing voltages above 50mv (i.e.
> currents above 500A)?
The E-meter would limit at 511 amps, which corresponds to 51.1 mv at the
shunt. Any higher voltage is simply treated as if it were 51.1 mv.
There was a special-order version of the E-meter that raised this limit
to 1022 amps (102.2 mv at the shunt). Thus it could display and
accumulate currents just over 1000 amps. I think the only real change
was in the software.
The Link 10 is the present-day name of the E-meter, and the Link 1000 is
basically a repackaged E-meter with a few functions changed (they left
out the prescaler options, and added the inverter control options). So,
unless they have changed the circuit for some reason, it probably has
the same limitations as the E-meter.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can get the KLM fuses from Graybar Electric http://www.graybar.com/
or also Telect
http://www.telect.com/index.cfm?object=134&op=1,2,4,24742,30,134
You can get these from 1/2A to 30 A.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 6:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Using an AC rated fuse in DC.
Ok, I know this is normally bad. However I cannot seem to find a source
for Bussman KLM-1 type fuses (10k AIR rated DC/AC, 500 volts). The only
thing sold that I can find is the KTK type fuses (100k AIR RMS, AC, 600
volts).
300 volt battery, Hawker Genesis. This is to protect the Dolphin.
Is a 100k AC rated fuse going to clear a 1 amp short? If not, anyplace I
can get KLM type fuses?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you. I have been checking all the usual suspects; when Mouser and
Digikey don't have something it's interesting.
Now I can get back to making this thing work without worrying about a
plasma inferno.
Chris
Mike & Paula Willmon wrote:
You can get the KLM fuses from Graybar Electric http://www.graybar.com/
or also Telect
http://www.telect.com/index.cfm?object=134&op=1,2,4,24742,30,134
You can get these from 1/2A to 30 A.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 6:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Using an AC rated fuse in DC.
Ok, I know this is normally bad. However I cannot seem to find a source
for Bussman KLM-1 type fuses (10k AIR rated DC/AC, 500 volts). The only
thing sold that I can find is the KTK type fuses (100k AIR RMS, AC, 600
volts).
300 volt battery, Hawker Genesis. This is to protect the Dolphin.
Is a 100k AC rated fuse going to clear a 1 amp short? If not, anyplace I
can get KLM type fuses?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ben Apollonio:
> I recall hearing a while ago that the quality/reliability of Optimas
> had degraded significantly in recent months/years. Has anyone had
> recent experience that can confirm/disprove this? I think YT's would
> fit my conversion better than orbitals, but obviously I don't want a
> shoddy battery.
>
> Thanks
> -Ben
There doesn't appear to have been any response to this message.
I'll 2nd the request, does anyone have any details about this?
Thanks,
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well heck, if Randy is introducing himself I may as well do the same.
I have been a list lurker on and off since September 2002 and have
looked at a few different EVs to buy such as the RAV4 (still regret
not doing that sometimes) and a '68 Porsche 912 conversion. I was
also on the EV1 wait list (unfulfilled) and am currently have a Tango
deposit in escrow. I am a member of the Silicon Valley EAA and have
enjoyed quite a few meetings there.
But, I am still short an EV of my own. I bought an 2000 Insight a
couple of years ago with the intention of converting it some day.
That time seems to be drawing closer as my battery pack is not what
it used to be and I am getting the itch to do some major surgery.
That, and I have some extra electricity from last year's project (PV)
to invest. Questions to follow I am sure...
Jay Snable
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence,
I've been trying to design a long range ev for quite some time. I've
just given up. Use my EV's for around town and vacinity. I have gone
WVO for my needs and it's the cheapest way to power a vehicle. I
might get into a diesel genset but so far nothing beats a micro turbine.
What microturbine are you talking about? I have looked into them some,
but found little on the market.
And what does WVO mean? Something vegetable oil?
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:10 PM 21/02/06 -0500, Chris wrote:
Ok, I know this is normally bad. However I cannot seem to find a source
for Bussman KLM-1 type fuses (10k AIR rated DC/AC, 500 volts). The only
thing sold that I can find is the KTK type fuses (100k AIR RMS, AC, 600 volts).
300 volt battery, Hawker Genesis. This is to protect the Dolphin.
Is a 100k AC rated fuse going to clear a 1 amp short? If not, anyplace I
can get KLM type fuses?
Hi Chris and all,
Rated to break 100,000amps AC, heck the maximum a battery is going to be
able to deliver is a couple of thousand amps of DC, and you are unlikely to
be able to deliver that kind of current through your wiring, maybe only a
few 10s of amps if that is a 1A fuse, so don't stress about the AIR
(amperage interrupt rating).
I assume Bussman KLM-1 is a 1 amp fuse? A 1 amp fuse will carry 1 amp all
year, and typically 2 amps for maybe a second, 10 amps for a few 10ths of a
second. Now this is where it may make a difference, in the 'curve' of the
fuse rating. Bussman KLM-1 may be a fast blow, carrying 10 amps or so
measured in thousanths of a second instead of 10ths, or a slow-blow the
other way. If the fuse curves are the same, I wouldn't stress about the
ratings, they are both 'right up there', just one is tested on DC as well
as AC so is rated that way, where the other has only been teated and rated
on AC.
Hope this hasn't confused the issue
Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rush,
I did review the Trojan Lead-acid battery MSDS. Here is some text:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
SECTION 3 -- HAZARD IDENTIFICATION
2. Subchronic and Chronic Health Effects
California Proposition 65 Warning:
"[........] and during charging, strong inorganic acid mists containing
sulfuric acid are evolved, a chemical Known to the State of California to cause
cancer.".
SECTION 8 -- EXPOSURE CONTROLS AND PERSONAL PROTECTION
Respiratory Protection (Specify Type):
Acid/gas NIOSH approved respirator is required when the PEL is exceeded or
employee experiences respiratory irritation. When exposure levels are unknown
or when firefighting, wear a self-contained breathing apparatus with a full
facepiece operated in a positive pressure mode.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An EVer might ask "well what if mists aren't being generated and its just
vapors?" My reply would be that said exposure is not a good idea. But that's
just my opinion.
I would also ask that interested EVers consider whether relying on just what
is published in the manufacturer's own MSDS is really something they want to
do.
I honestly don't know that my wading into this subject online is such a great
idea. I would hope that others can arrive at an accurate appraisal of their own
situations. Its just that if a collective denial on the list had set-in, that
might be of concern.
Best regards,
Mark Freidberg
Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Mark wrote -
> And the manufacturer's own MSDS don't try to suggest that the emissions
> aren't toxic or hazardous. Repeated exposures (even low-level) are to be
> avoided; that would be my admonition to anyone in the EV community in denial
> of this.
>
>
> Ok thanks for your replies and forebearance,
>
> Mark Freidberg
Mark
Could you elaborate a little more on what emissions you consider to be toxic or
hazardous?
Its my understanding, and also after looking at the USDS
http://www.trojan-battery.com/Tech-Support/MaterialDataSafetySheets.aspx
that there is nothing hazardous that is released. Yes if you touch the lead
terminals there is lead contact, but I think that we all know that, and in any
case, nobody I know licks the terminals.... And yes the electrolyte is also
dangerous, we all know it is an acid and take precautions to keep it off our
fingers and clothes.
During charging O2 and Hydrogen are released, and yes they can be dangerous,
that is why we talk about having fans to clear the gases. But other than that
in normal usage, there is nothing hazardous.
If the battery is broken, or set on fire that becomes a totally different story.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
---------------------------------
Brings words and photos together (easily) with
PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah, yes, everything in Kalifornia causes cancer...
However, in this case, the Canadians do agree:
http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/chem_profiles/sulfuric_acid/health_sa.html
I do note: "occupational exposure to strong inorganic acid mists
containing sulfuric acid is carcinogenic to humans" requires both strong
acid mists and exposure. Which is a good reason not to vent your
batteries into the interior of your vehicle. Can you see a way people
will be exposed to these strong mists in sufficient quanities to have an
effect?
Oh, and have you seen the MSDS for gasoline? Yikes!
http://www.brownoil.com/msdsgasoline.htm
Cory Cross
p.s. "if a collective denial on the list had set-in" Hmmm, do you
believe in the battery sulfators too?
Mark Freidberg wrote:
> Hi Rush,
>
> I did review the Trojan Lead-acid battery MSDS. Here is some text:
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> SECTION 3 -- HAZARD IDENTIFICATION
> 2. Subchronic and Chronic Health Effects
>
> California Proposition 65 Warning:
>
> "[........] and during charging, strong inorganic acid mists containing
> sulfuric acid are evolved, a chemical Known to the State of California to
> cause cancer.".
>
>
> SECTION 8 -- EXPOSURE CONTROLS AND PERSONAL PROTECTION
>
> Respiratory Protection (Specify Type):
>
> Acid/gas NIOSH approved respirator is required when the PEL is exceeded or
> employee experiences respiratory irritation. When exposure levels are unknown
> or when firefighting, wear a self-contained breathing apparatus with a full
> facepiece operated in a positive pressure mode.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> An EVer might ask "well what if mists aren't being generated and its just
> vapors?" My reply would be that said exposure is not a good idea. But that's
> just my opinion.
>
> I would also ask that interested EVers consider whether relying on just
> what is published in the manufacturer's own MSDS is really something they
> want to do.
>
> I honestly don't know that my wading into this subject online is such a
> great idea. I would hope that others can arrive at an accurate appraisal of
> their own situations. Its just that if a collective denial on the list had
> set-in, that might be of concern.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mark Freidberg
>
>
>
> Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Mark wrote -
>
>
>
>>And the manufacturer's own MSDS don't try to suggest that the emissions
>>aren't toxic or hazardous. Repeated exposures (even low-level) are to be
>>avoided; that would be my admonition to anyone in the EV community in denial
>>of this.
>>
>>
>>Ok thanks for your replies and forebearance,
>>
>>Mark Freidberg
>
>
> Mark
>
> Could you elaborate a little more on what emissions you consider to be toxic
> or hazardous?
>
> Its my understanding, and also after looking at the USDS
> http://www.trojan-battery.com/Tech-Support/MaterialDataSafetySheets.aspx
> that there is nothing hazardous that is released. Yes if you touch the lead
> terminals there is lead contact, but I think that we all know that, and in
> any case, nobody I know licks the terminals.... And yes the electrolyte is
> also dangerous, we all know it is an acid and take precautions to keep it off
> our fingers and clothes.
>
> During charging O2 and Hydrogen are released, and yes they can be dangerous,
> that is why we talk about having fans to clear the gases. But other than that
> in normal usage, there is nothing hazardous.
>
> If the battery is broken, or set on fire that becomes a totally different
> story.
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Brings words and photos together (easily) with
> PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark wrote
> Hi Rush,
>
> I did review the Trojan Lead-acid battery MSDS. Here is some text:
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> SECTION 3 -- HAZARD IDENTIFICATION
> 2. Subchronic and Chronic Health Effects
>
> California Proposition 65 Warning:
>
> "[........] and during charging, strong inorganic acid mists containing
> sulfuric acid are evolved, a chemical Known to the State of California to
> cause cancer.".
"California Proposition 65 Warning:
Battery posts, terminals, and related accessories contain lead and lead
compounds, chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and
reproductive harm, and during charging, strong inorganic acid mists containing
sulfuric acid are evolved, a chemical Known to the State of California to cause
cancer. Wash hands after handling."
is the full section and all it says to do is 'wash hands'... pretty inadequate
for a cancer causing situation...
California Proposition 65 dates from 1986 when there were no or very few
warning labels. Awareness has grown considerably since then.
> SECTION 8 -- EXPOSURE CONTROLS AND PERSONAL PROTECTION
>
> Respiratory Protection (Specify Type):
>
> Acid/gas NIOSH approved respirator is required when the PEL is exceeded or
> employee experiences respiratory irritation. When exposure levels are unknown
> or when firefighting, wear a self-contained breathing apparatus with a full
> facepiece operated in a positive pressure mode.
What is the PEL (Personal Exposure Limit)? I don't know, but it seems from the
above that normal exposure, in a normal situation, would not require a SCBA
device.. I might be wrong, but the phrase "when firefighting" seems to point to
an extreme PEL.
> An EVer might ask "well what if mists aren't being generated and its just
> vapors?" My reply would be that said exposure is not a good idea. But that's
> just my opinion.
>
> I would also ask that interested EVers consider whether relying on just what
> is published in the manufacturer's own MSDS is really something they want to
> do.
>
> I honestly don't know that my wading into this subject online is such a
> great idea. I would hope that others can arrive at an accurate appraisal of
> their own situations. Its just that if a collective denial on the list had
> set-in, that might be of concern.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mark Freidberg
Who knows, I may be in denial... but it seems to me that the risks are way
lower than breathing the fumes of a gas engine, so I guess it comes down to a
'which will kill me first' decision.
Take care
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
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Oh it gets better. Calif recently had trouble when it found that it had
already required warnings on any product containing acrylamides. Later
it was found cereal and baked bread also contain acrylamides and there
was substantial outcry over the apparent requirement to put scary cancer
warnings on breakfast cereal and loaves of bread. Kinda makes you wanna
go smoke a cigarette if it's the same as eating Cheerios.
Danny
Cory Cross wrote:
Ah, yes, everything in Kalifornia causes cancer...
However, in this case, the Canadians do agree:
http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/chem_profiles/sulfuric_acid/health_sa.html
I do note: "occupational exposure to strong inorganic acid mists
containing sulfuric acid is carcinogenic to humans" requires both strong
acid mists and exposure. Which is a good reason not to vent your
batteries into the interior of your vehicle. Can you see a way people
will be exposed to these strong mists in sufficient quanities to have an
effect?
Oh, and have you seen the MSDS for gasoline? Yikes!
http://www.brownoil.com/msdsgasoline.htm
Cory Cross
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Besides Mouser http://www.mouser.com/ and DigiKey http://www.digikey.com/
other sources for electrical components that I've used are:
Graybar Electric http://www.graybar.com/
Allied Electronics http://www.alliedelec.com/
Newark Electronics http://www.newark.com/
Grainger http://www.grainger.com/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 7:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Using an AC rated fuse in DC.
Thank you. I have been checking all the usual suspects; when Mouser and
Digikey don't have something it's interesting.
Now I can get back to making this thing work without worrying about a
plasma inferno.
Chris
Mike & Paula Willmon wrote:
> You can get the KLM fuses from Graybar Electric http://www.graybar.com/
>
> or also Telect
> http://www.telect.com/index.cfm?object=134&op=1,2,4,24742,30,134
>
> You can get these from 1/2A to 30 A.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Christopher Zach
> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 6:10 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Using an AC rated fuse in DC.
>
>
> Ok, I know this is normally bad. However I cannot seem to find a source
> for Bussman KLM-1 type fuses (10k AIR rated DC/AC, 500 volts). The only
> thing sold that I can find is the KTK type fuses (100k AIR RMS, AC, 600
> volts).
>
> 300 volt battery, Hawker Genesis. This is to protect the Dolphin.
>
> Is a 100k AC rated fuse going to clear a 1 amp short? If not, anyplace I
> can get KLM type fuses?
>
> Chris
>
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Bill,
The "+" and "-" refer to what polarity the hot lead on the supply is with
respect to its ground plane. On a non-isolated device this is the polarity
of the hot lead with respect to the chassis. On an output isolated unit
however its only with respect to the ground plane inside the isolated unit.
Your typical automotive electrical system is +12VDC, where ground is
negative (and typically ground wires are black). Usually the electrical
components will have non-isolated inputs, meaning you could use the chassis
as the return connection. Typical cellular site and trunked radio equipment
sites are +24VDC and the same conventions apply. Telephone companies
however run mostly -48VDC plants. This means that the "hot" leads from
power supplies are negative "-" 48V WRT the grounplane and the "ground"
leads are positive. The conventions for coloring however follow the name
"hot" and "ground" however. Meaning, on a properly installed -48VDC plant
the "hot" -48VDC leads are Red, and the "ground" (or retun) leads are still
black. Usually equipments in a telco central office have isolated inputs but
frequently I come accros some gear that does not.
If you get a supply that advertises to be +24VDC its output may or may not
be isolated form the chassis. If you get a supply that is advertised
as -24VDC then most likely its output is isolated, but you better check to
be sure. Most decent quality telco power supplies advertised as -48VDC do
have isolated outputs, but you still better check because I have come across
a couple that were not.
A mixed +24V/-48V plant is real scary to see improperly wired. For instance
seeing power system ground busses with both Red and Black wires running to
them makes you stop and think about your "plus and minus".
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 12:37 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Plus and Minus
When looking at switchmode power supply specs, I see some that will say +24V
and some that say -24V. What does the + and - mean in these cases?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
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I just love it when Kamen thinks his expensive toys will change the world.
I'll bet his new toys end up just like the Segway, clever gadgets that
cost 10 times as much as the alternative, leaving Kamen stumped as to why
they didn't revolutionize...whatever.
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Thanks. I just got a pack of trojan T-125s to replace
the T-105s in a truck I bought from a friend. I got
an extra 700 miles out of the "dead" T-105s, and this
being my first pack of floddies, I'm interested in
treating them right.
My commute is only about 10 miles each way, and I
expect I'll be able to charge at work (another EVer
gets to, so I should be able to), so this pack will
have a lot of shallow cycles. But I have a PFC-30
(paid more for that than I did for the entire truck!)
so I should be able to give them a good hard charge
every month or so.
Thanks for the reply, it's good to hear they held up
well to your 45 mile commute,
- Steven Ciciora
--- Jimmy Argon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Steve,
> I bought the pack in 93-94 and used it in the Solar
> and Electric 500 for 6
> years. Besides that I only did donuts in my yard
> until I started to
> commute with it. I had them for 6 years and 90%
> still tested good on a
> load tester when I sold them to someone that used
> them in a solar system.
> I know I had over the 250 cycles, the secret is to
> keep charging and hard
> at least once a month!
> Jimmy
>
>
> From: "Steven Ciciora" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: re: I think I am going to need a lot of
> lead ...
>
> What kind of life did you get out of your batts with
> that commute?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve
>
> --- Jimmy Argon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Steve,
> > Here is some data:
> > I drove the Voltbuggy 45 miles round trip to work
> > for a couple years.
> > (23) 6v t125s,
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 10:10, Lee Hart wrote:
> jerry halstead wrote:
> > Someone provided a link to a non-perpetual energy motor, called
> > thingap. Anyone hear of them before?
> > http://www.thingap.com/technology.htm
>
> Thingap motors are real...
> Most motors have about a 50/50 weight distribution between stator and
> rotor. Thingap-type motors shift this balance to something like 90/10
> between stator and rotor. With only 10% of the weight in the rotor, you
> get a servo motor with very low rotational inertia. This is good for
> fast speed changes in control systems and instrumentation. But the rotor
> is now very weak mechanically, and poor at dissipating heat. This makes
> it bad for traction applications.
>
> Their brushless inside-out version holds the rotor stationary, and lets
> the stator (with all the mass) rotate. This gives you a motor with a
> huge rotating mass -- a built-in flywheel. This makes torque pulsations
> very low, but there aren't many applications that want high rotating
> mass.
What are the applications where this IS a good idea.
I use these in toy (RC) airplanes. The flywheel is nice
to keep the prop running when climbing vertical, but I wonder
of the angular momentum adversely effects maneuverability.
This is the common set-up for disk drive motors.
The reason might be economy, but again, if you want
a constant speed, it might be convenient to have
extra flywheel mass.
aaron
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Christopher Zach wrote:
> Thank you. I have been checking all the usual suspects; when Mouser and
> Digikey don't have something it's interesting.
Mouser and Digikey are *electronics* parts distributors; fuses are best
found at an *electrical* parts distributor. There are a lot more of them
around; every town has electricians, but few have electronics
manufacturers.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Tim Humphrey wrote:">[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I'm not sure of the PC1200
price, but I'm confident that it's higher than the >Orb.
>Disclaimer: I have no personal or financial stake in Hawker, and they do not
>>sponsor me .... yet.
>Stay Charged!
>Hump
I paid 145$ each for my 4, pc1200's. Plus i asked for them to be matched and
of the same run. No problem, and no extra charge. I got them local from the
local guy, OSI Battery who has been helping me get this going.
Paul
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new
and used cars.
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Matthew D. Graham wrote:
Oh come on, John!! Are you kidding us?? You lead a charmed life, my friend.
Just when I think, "it can't get any better" you go ahead and pull off this
stunt! Great publicity AND you get to play cops and robbers?
Congratulations!!
Yes, it's going to be fun! The weather report is in our favor, too. Last
week's c-cold 14-24 degree Portland area temps have given way to bland
grey days with 40's and rain, but the clouds go away on Friday, and
Saturday is forecast to be sunny and dry at near 50 degrees, warm for
February in Oregon! This is perfect for some outrageous tire ignition
sequences and a little high speed straight-away activity.
It came about this way.....a friend that used to work with Tim and I as
a forklift wrench, Jason, left the company last year to pursue a new
career as a police officer, something he had been working towards for a
long time. Jason was my ride-along when he was pretty new with our
company and I gave him field training...glad I was 'nice' to him :-) He
was high on EVs, took a great interest in all my EV activity, and was at
the Wayland home on several occasions for fun EV stuff. He's now a cop,
but still wants to hang with the Plasma Boy Racing gang. He had called
both Tim and I to offer his help with the race car on his days off. Tim
told him about my idea of having a police cruiser with lights on in a
photo shoot thing, and Jason ran with the idea and talked to his
superiors about it. One thing lead to another, and a simple photo shoot
with a cop car evolved into having White Zombie 'getting it on' among
multiple cops car at PIR on their driver's training day. Hmmmm....I
wonder if that friendly cop that pulled me over a few weeks ago, will be
there?
Speaking of training...the nice office staff lady that assists me in my
role as the company's corporate technical trainer at Northwest Handling
Systems, is married to a cop. He's reportedly, excited to see White
Zombie in person at the officer's driving school EVent.
We'll keep everyone posted on how this thing turns out.
See Ya......John Wayland
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