EV Digest 5200
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EVDL appears on Bombay TV
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Dean Kamen's sterling generator, Govenators green website & Robert Q
Riley
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Dragtimes Vote
by "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Range question, Need quick response
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Dragtimes Vote
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Optima YT's
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Generator Swap
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Hybrid car that could -at Philly Auto show.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Range question, Need quick response
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Load testing EV components
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Load testing EV components
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Has anyone tried switching thru series strings of small AGMs to
maximize range?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) OT Re: Dean Kamen's sterling generator
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Using an AC rated fuse in DC.
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Range question, Need quick response
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Generator Swap
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Dragtimes Vote
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Range question, Need quick response
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Load testing EV components
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Load testing EV components
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Load testing EV components
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Load testing EV components
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
by "Alan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) RE: Load testing EV components
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ken an' EVerybody;
Wow! Very nice. I'm humbled that "we" would be honored by mention on a
Indian TV thing.After all we DID have an Indian fellow on here a few years
ago. Sorry can't remember his name, but he DID say that he had gotten a job
with the Riva factery?
Now, if OUR Prez had made a remark about the List on prime time?or EVen
at 3am on C span?
Rootin' for the Indians!
Seeya
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Trough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 5:52 PM
Subject: EVDL appears on Bombay TV
> Today's diversion:
> The EVDL has spread so much EV knowledge around the world that
> apparently even Bollywood has taken notice.
>
> Check out this high quality film from India:
> http://tinyurl.com/htezz
>
> Enjoy! 8^)
>
>
> -Ken Trough
> V is for Voltage
> http://visforvoltage.com
> AIM/YM - ktrough
> FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree the segway was an over-hyped launch. But Kaman actually has made
some products that have greatly improved the lives of others.
-wearable infusion pump
-wearable insulin pump
-home dialysis machine
-wheelchair that climbs stairs, raises the user to standing height, works on
unpaved surfaces.
And if they can get the price of that kilowatt stirling generator down to
that $1000 price point, I'm buying one for the cottage!
-Mike
On 2/22/06, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I just love it when Kamen thinks his expensive toys will change the world.
>
> I'll bet his new toys end up just like the Segway, clever gadgets that
> cost 10 times as much as the alternative, leaving Kamen stumped as to why
> they didn't revolutionize...whatever.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike,
I think you have it mostly right. . .Next month John will move onto the page
for past cars of the month, where he should be able to continue to update
his record with better and better timeslips. I don't think White Zombie can
win car of the month again, but I wonder if dragtimes.com will have some
contest in the future where you can vote on your favorite car of the year.
White Zombie and a couple other EVs would make strong contenders for that
award!
I hadn't checked out the forums before you mentioned it. There's some pretty
good back-and-forth there about EVs. Good info on the EV side and not too
discouraging remarks on the gasser side! I know a mid-13 or high 12-second
run won't impress everyone, but it's making more than just a few people
think seriously about the possibilities. . .hopefully including the kid you
just sent to the dragtimes site!
Thanks,
Matt Graham
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike & Paula Willmon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 1:05 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Dragtimes Vote
Matt,
So how does this work? Roderick and you are #1 and #2 right now however the
WZ is still racking up votes. It seems everyone carried over their votes
from the previous month and the featured car is still accumulating. What
happens when WZ is succeedded by one of you? Does he go perpetually into
the "Past Featured Caor of the Month" page? Will he be able to repost
another time slip and run the gamut again?
I agree that seeing more electric timeslips on their board would be cool. I
think keeping the slow steady creep of a few votes a day looks more legit
than one time 500 vote increases. I'm sure others on the board watch the
numbers and notice the large jumps as well. I've read a little on their
forums and they have a thread that talked about this subject. Having a raw
consistent votership goes a long way to proving legitimacy, just like the
raw consistent torque layed out on the track. No one can argue repeatable
results. And heck, some like it and you may get some converts on the
dragstrip.
Just a side note, the guy I bought my batteries from has a kid in his shop
big into drag racing. He asked when I was paying for my batteries if
electric would make a good dragster....just pointed him to DragTimes.com :-)
I'll check back with him when I get my truck finished and see if you guys
hooked him.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Matthew D. Graham
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 9:13 AM
To: 'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'
Subject: RE: Dragtimes Vote
Hey everyone,
I'm really happy to see the balanced views on this topic. Brooks' website
and our voting efforts have done a great job of raising awareness of EVs.
Then again, too much "EVs-in-your-face" could lead to a little resentment.
I'm not particularly worried about thin skin on the other racers, but from
the beginning I was concerned about EVs appearing like a flash in the pan.
Having our EVs in the top 10 for as long as they've been has been great. But
what an accomplishment it would be if there were at least one up there on
the "recent" or "top 10" lists for the whole year and beyond! I know there
are some incredible EVs in the works right now, and I can't wait to see how
they perform.
I wanted to let you all know that I got an email back from Brooks today
after I asked about the Audi and the short-lived "sponsor votes" feature. He
indicated that no one had actually used that feature to move up in the
standings, and that he doesn't think he'll be using it after all. I actually
got the impression that he was irritated about the Audi, but he confirmed
that those votes all came from different IP addresses. He couldn't find any
forums promoting the Audi, so I think he'll keep his eyes out for any other
suspicious voting flurries.
I told him I wouldn't be heartbroken if the 240 didn't make car of the month
for March since I still wasn't into the 12s with it. His advice to me:
"You've got 8 more days to make it into the 12s!" Nothing like a deadline to
speed up car repairs!
Matt Graham
300V "Joule Injected" Nissan
http://www.jouleinjected.com
Hobe Sound, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: Roderick Wilde [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 11:29 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Dragtimes Vote
Oat, you have a good point and your logic is sound. It could cause some
negative feelings about EV drag cars. On the flip side of the coin the
original intent was to bring about the awareness that EV drag racing
actually exists. Most people I talk to are amazed to find this out. The
other good thing to come out of all of this is that the webmaster has put up
a whole new page to showcase EV drag cars. Without the number of electrics
currently on the site it would not have warranted a separate page at all.
This I feel is a very significant gain for creating an awareness of EV drag
racing and EVs in general. This page will most likely exist even after there
are no EVs in the top 100. I say mission accomplished and now we can get
back to the battle :-)
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: Dragtimes Vote
> At 8:39 AM -0800 2/18/06, John Wayland wrote:
> .....
>>I vote every day for the EVs, and sure wish all who voted regularly
>>and propelled White Zombie to the number one spot, would do the same
>>for our EV friends fighting for next month's honor.
>
> Am I the only one that thinks that three months of EV's in a row might
> be boring to those not into EV's?
>
> I'm all for having EV's in the top spot every now and then, but too
> often and I think it reduces the effectiveness. I would think that the
> gassers would think we have taken over the site (as our large numbers
> certainly
> can) and then they might not go there as often.
>
> I for one am going to wait a couple months, then we can try for #1 again.
> Just my 20 milliwatts.
> --
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/
> The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
> Now accepting resumes. Please see:
> http://www.cafeelectric.com/jobs.html
>
>
>
>
> --
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am rechargeing after my initial test of the emeter and have to leave
as soon as it is charged to take it to the referee.
If someone could answer this question privately asap, i am on digest mode.
When we say discharge to 80% maximum is that 80% of 20h rate?
I have 24 excides in the pack, they are rated 50ah @20hr rate.
But I have been told to consider them as 34ah at the "EV rate"
So do I have 80% of 50 o 80% of 34 to work with?
I took a 6.6 mile loop with about 10 stoplights and the emeter showed
12.2ah, but it looks as though it started at 2ah. I don't know how the
emeter knows how many ah my pack is, or does it just track ah and the
bargraph is on voltage. I didn't see a way of setting it.
Also, somewhere i heard, the rule of thumb is 1 mile per battery? They
are gonna let me charge at the referee, indeed, they asked me to get
there early so I can charge and the teacher wants to show his class.
(the referee station is at the vocational school) AND it is 15 miles one
way.
Will I make it? the math seems to indicate I will.
is this also correct? 12ah for 6 miles is 2ah/mile @288V = 576
Wh/mile? ack, that is terrible.
tires are at 40psi and she coasts and coasts.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FYI the Audi S4 is back at it again with a 600 vote overnight dump. It had 2874
votes as ot 10 pm last night and jump to 3384 by this morning. I vote daily to
keep this going but if this guy is going to move so many votes in 12 hours I
don't know how the EV's are going to keep ahead
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes John I have heard that.
But I have not seen any evidence in testing.
I still claim that Optima Yellow and Blue tops are the Gold Standard for
high performance EVs.
Hawkers are better for Racing and Cost more per Kwhr of stored power.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: Optima YT's
> Ben Apollonio:
>
> > I recall hearing a while ago that the quality/reliability of Optimas
> > had degraded significantly in recent months/years. Has anyone had
> > recent experience that can confirm/disprove this? I think YT's would
> > fit my conversion better than orbitals, but obviously I don't want a
> > shoddy battery.
> >
> > Thanks
> > -Ben
>
> There doesn't appear to have been any response to this message.
> I'll 2nd the request, does anyone have any details about this?
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I haven't really thought this through any more deeply that the level of
"hey, this idea just occurred to me", and maybe it's already been discussed,
but...
In the past, there's been discussion on the EVDL of battery swapping
stations, with the consensus that didn't seem impractical. With hybrids
sounding like they're going to be big in the next few decades, though, I was
wondering if a "generator renting paradigm" might work. For example, you
purchase a series hybrid without a generator, just batteries. Most of the
time, you just drive it around town on batteries only. When you need to
take a longer trip, you stop by a Generator Rental Store, which pops a
generator into the vehicle, and off you go.
You don't need to spend the money up front on the generator piece of the
car, and you're not carrying around the generator weight unnecessarily every
day.
Thought (rebuttals, flames :})?
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<<The all-wheel-drive hybrid-drive kitcar is not bad for what it is
-actually
very good. It has a turbodiesel rear axle, which gets 50mpg and runs on
soybean
oil,
and there are electric motors for the front axle. It appears to run
ok.>>
*Very* cool project!
I would really like to know where they hid enough batteries to drive
the front wheels.
Being a high school shop teacher, and having been involved in many
large projects, I must say that this is quite an achievement.
It is plenty hard enough to run an inner city auto shop, but tobe able
to assemble such a vehicle is an ungodly undertaking.
Major kudos to those guys.
Anyone have contact info?
Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sure....
Not a problem....
This should be a nice learning process....
How many Kwhr does your "EV" store ???
I hope you have a healthy check book. 150Kw chargers are not cheap...or
small.
I have a couple of 7 minute cycles in my log book.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 11:04 AM
Subject: Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
> I am planning to develop a car battery that can be fully charged in 5
minutes. Is there anyone who would like to get involved in this project ?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My apologies to list, I must of missed a section last night, (I
shouldn't be allowed to work alone after midnight)
After I Re-read the manual(RTFM), I found where to change from the 200ah
flooded at 27.6V to 50ah(or is that 34?) agm at 350V.
This changes the pukert from 1.25 to 1.11 and should help immensly, the
gauge was dropping fast during accelerations.
Interesting thought.
Get a feel for what the range on your route and driveing stype would
be if you were to change from floodies to agm or vicaversa, just program
your emeter for one or the other. (obviously you may not be able to get
the acceleration of agm's on floodies, but for those heavy long distance
cars, it may give you an idea)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm wanting to do some higher-current load tests (up to 12V / 50A
(600W), for now), and I'm wondering what people are using for load
cells. I think Mr. Rudman mentioned using either Kanthal or Nicrhome to
wind his own load resistors for testing the PFC series. I have a roll
of Nichrome -- where does one get the ceramic forms to wind the wire
on? Anyone have any tips on load resistor building? Ideally, I'd have
separate taps or different sized resistors to change the loading.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich wrote
> I hope you have a healthy check book. 150Kw chargers are not cheap...or
> small.
You mean it won't fit in my trunk.....<G>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yer think'in too hard Eric!!!
I have used steel coat hangers and buckets of water..
Steel SIGNODE packing strap... I did this on Monster Garage... nice 80 amp
load.
I use 0.171 ohm resistors from CandHsurplus.com for my real high power
Banks. These cost $29 bucks each. Three in parallel make a really nice 200
amp 12 volt load bank. I have been making a 300 amp 12 volt charger, and
testing Blue top Orbitals for the Fiero. 5 minutes down , 8 back up .... at
only 150 amps.
A "keeper" battery is 5 minutes above 10 volts. at 208 to 189 amps.. this is
the expected amp sag from 12.5 volts to 9.89 volts where the test is
terminated.
Don't make your own when just what you need is a mouse click and $30 away.
You need only 0.24 ohms for 50 amps and 600 watts is a little one, check out
what they have...you should find a winner.
Wanna see 4 of these RED hot... sucking 24,000 watts???
It's my current Load bank on the 75Kw charger. I heats a 1200 SqFt shop with
a 30 ft over head at about 1 Deg F per 3 minutes. Really nice when the shop
is at 45 Deg F when you walk in.
A while ago I posted a picture 3 of these at Orange hot.
Madman
Yes My la bor a try has smoking glowing metal ,flashing lights, and humming
Stuff in it...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Poulsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 10:09 AM
Subject: Load testing EV components
> I'm wanting to do some higher-current load tests (up to 12V / 50A
> (600W), for now), and I'm wondering what people are using for load
> cells. I think Mr. Rudman mentioned using either Kanthal or Nicrhome to
> wind his own load resistors for testing the PFC series. I have a roll
> of Nichrome -- where does one get the ceramic forms to wind the wire
> on? Anyone have any tips on load resistor building? Ideally, I'd have
> separate taps or different sized resistors to change the loading.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
He he he!!
I had to get a Fork truck to build and move My big ones.
The Case is 800MM by 800mm by 1400 mm tall, and the base transformer is 410
lbs.
Nope Not gonna fit in the trunk.
1/2 Ton Truck... Yea...Hauling this thing to California... is going to be a
Adventure.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
> Rich wrote
>
> > I hope you have a healthy check book. 150Kw chargers are not cheap...or
> > small.
>
> You mean it won't fit in my trunk.....<G>
>
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 21 Feb 2006 at 11:12, Mark Freidberg wrote:
> Except that each string regenerate a little during the 2/3 of the time that
> the other two strings are discharging.
I don't mean to be critical, Mark, but you're dismissing the advice of a
couple of very knowledgeable and experienced people.
But if you're convinced you're right, try it! Buy the batteries, build the
car, set it up your way, run it, and record your range. Then rewire it
using the more usual approach of 3 parallel packs. Run as nearly as
possible the same range test, and see which system does better. Then report
back to us. Then we can all benefit from >your< experience, too.
BTW, don't forget to document how much all those contactors cost. ;-)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, if he can market a 1kw sterling generator for $1,000 then he'll have
something. I betting it doesn't happen though.
But as for the water purifier...he spent millions developing a prototype
water purifier that does basically the same thing as a device I can buy
for $40 at any camping store (and only requires muscle power). Then he
gets mad when the UN tells him it costs to much to be pratical.
Anyway, this has gotten OT.
> I agree the segway was an over-hyped launch. But Kaman actually has made
> some products that have greatly improved the lives of others.
>
> -wearable infusion pump
> -wearable insulin pump
> -home dialysis machine
> -wheelchair that climbs stairs, raises the user to standing height, works
> on
> unpaved surfaces.
>
> And if they can get the price of that kilowatt stirling generator down to
> that $1000 price point, I'm buying one for the cottage!
>
> -Mike
>
> On 2/22/06, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> I just love it when Kamen thinks his expensive toys will change the
>> world.
>>
>> I'll bet his new toys end up just like the Segway, clever gadgets that
>> cost 10 times as much as the alternative, leaving Kamen stumped as to
>> why
>> they didn't revolutionize...whatever.
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rated to break 100,000amps AC, heck the maximum a battery is going to be
able to deliver is a couple of thousand amps of DC, and you are unlikely
to be able to deliver that kind of current through your wiring, maybe
only a few 10s of amps if that is a 1A fuse, so don't stress about the
AIR (amperage interrupt rating).
Warning: The above is a dangerous line of thought.
The problem is this: AC breakers and fuses are designed to break AC
loads. This is apparently not too hard as the voltage on an AC line
swings to zero a certain number of times per second. Thus the arcs tend
to self-extinguish.
DC is different; it never goes to zero. Thus you can pull an arc when
the fuse opens and that arc will tend to stay around. On my solar power
system for exampe I can pull an arc the length of a fuse with ease. In
fact this happens every time I check the darn current with my meter; I
am chewing up test leads (you always check max current on solar panels
by dead-shorting them. Don't worry, it's totally ok). But that is a
10amp @36 volt system.
Recently I was testing fuses on my flooded NiCd packs and accidentally
shorted out a 32 volt DC rated main fuse (100a) across the pack (with a
300a DC rated forklift fuse as backup). This is a 36 volt pack.
The fuse basically disintegrated into a beautiful plasma ball. I opened
the circuit by kicking it with my foot, however it incinerated the top
of one of my batteries. And it didn't even open the 300amp fuse.
Thus AIR is extremely important in DC rated fuses. This fuse did not
have one, but it was probably only a few hundred amp peak. I blew it
with a 3,000 amp short.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When we say discharge to 80% maximum is that 80% of 20h rate?
I always like to say 80% of the total capacity at the 1 hour rate,
adjusted for temps.
For example: I have a 52ah(20hr rate) pack. Which is really a 42ah(1hr
rate pack). 80% of that is 33.6ah, which is about the most I will drive
my car (33-35 miles). Adjust this for temperature as well, lately it's
been 32 degrees or less, so my capacity is about half this (18ah tops)
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's a clever idea. I doubt it will ever happen, especially since it
depends on the widespread acceptance of EVs, but it is clever.
Hmm, maybe EV clubs could form and pool their money for a good low
emissions generator.
> I haven't really thought this through any more deeply that the level of
> "hey, this idea just occurred to me", and maybe it's already been
> discussed,
> but...
>
> In the past, there's been discussion on the EVDL of battery swapping
> stations, with the consensus that didn't seem impractical. With hybrids
> sounding like they're going to be big in the next few decades, though, I
> was
> wondering if a "generator renting paradigm" might work. For example, you
> purchase a series hybrid without a generator, just batteries. Most of the
> time, you just drive it around town on batteries only. When you need to
> take a longer trip, you stop by a Generator Rental Store, which pops a
> generator into the vehicle, and off you go.
>
> You don't need to spend the money up front on the generator piece of the
> car, and you're not carrying around the generator weight unnecessarily
> every
> day.
>
> Thought (rebuttals, flames :})?
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
By doing a spam type program of course but I don't know any EVers that low.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Weisenberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 9:32 AM
Subject: RE: Dragtimes Vote
FYI the Audi S4 is back at it again with a 600 vote overnight dump. It had
2874 votes as ot 10 pm last night and jump to 3384 by this morning. I vote
daily to keep this going but if this guy is going to move so many votes in
12 hours I don't know how the EV's are going to keep ahead
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.
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On 21 Feb 2006 at 14:26, Danny Miller wrote:
> No conventional battery can be charged in 5 min no matter what you do
> with it.
That depends on the capacity of the battery! In most cases charging EV
batteries in the 15 - 20 minute range isn't at all unrealistic, IF you don't
try to charge them to 100% (80% is the limit) and IF you monitor their
temperature carefully.
Five minutes? Maybe. Now you are starting to see challenges in power
available. To charge a 25 kWh EV battery from 20% to 80% requires 15 kWh.
Let's assume 90% efficiency from mains to battery, not out of line at all
for that SOC range even though some energy is always lost to heat. To add
16.66 kWh in 5 minutes requires a power source capable of providing 200 kW
for that 5 minutes. This is equivalent to the full electrical capacity of
about four average fairly new homes.
This obviously isn't impossible with 3-phase industrial power, and in fact
fast charging is currently done in some plants where EVs are used all day.
It's not hard to bring up the pack on a burden carrier during the operator's
break.
But now imagine charging 10 or 12 road EVs at once, as might easily happen
someday at a charging station. Drivers are apt to "gas up" during the day,
so offpeak capacity doesn't help at all. Timeshifting that much load gets
pricey, so it's not hard to imagine the quick and (literally) dirty solution
- a honkin' big diesel generator out back. And now we're kind of back to
where we started from.
If we are going to hope for widespread adoption of EVs, I think we have to
look very hard at coordinated infrastructure development to support them.
I'm not holding my breath for either one. In the meantime, the most
practical and useful charging system remains the one that can replace
overnight the energy the driver typically uses daily.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Let me take a try at this, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong...
Jeff wrote
>I am rechargeing after my initial test of the emeter and have to leave
> as soon as it is charged to take it to the referee.
>
> If someone could answer this question privately asap, i am on digest mode.
>
> When we say discharge to 80% maximum is that 80% of 20h rate?
>
> I have 24 excides in the pack, they are rated 50ah @20hr rate.
>
> But I have been told to consider them as 34ah at the "EV rate"
>
> So do I have 80% of 50 o 80% of 34 to work with?
I'm not sure it is a direct proportion... I know that with Trojan T-125's the
C20 ah reserve is 240, but I am told to use them at the c1 rate of 137 ah.
In any case since their c20 rate is 50 ah, it sounds logical that you would use
the 34 ah as your number. Others probably know better....
> I took a 6.6 mile loop with about 10 stoplights and the emeter showed
> 12.2ah, but it looks as though it started at 2ah. I don't know how the
> emeter knows how many ah my pack is, or does it just track ah and the
> bargraph is on voltage. I didn't see a way of setting it.
It sets itself automatically, but the default is a 200 ah battery - from the
manual, page 17
Synchronize Your Meter to a full battery.
After installing Your Meter, charge the battery until the far right Green
LED begins flashing, which indicates the Charged Parameters have been
met. Amp-hours will have started at 0 and counted up as a positive number.
As you begin discharging the battery, the LED will stop flashing and
the numeric Amp-hour display resets to 0. Your Meter is shipped from
the factory assuming a 200 Amp-hour battery. Your battery may be a
different size. To change battery size, see Page 21.
Staying in Sync, Removing Accumulated Negative Ahrs.
Should Your Meter ever become out of sync with the battery state-ofcharge
simply charge until the far right LED flashes Green. You may also
get back in sync by charging until the battery is full and then resetting the
Amp-hours to zero through the RESET function.
If Your Meter should accumulate a negative number in the Amp-hour
display you will have to charge until you meet the conditions for a
recalculation
of the Charging Efficiency (CEF) as described on Pages 22 & 23.
If you do not meet all five of the conditions listed below you will not get
a recalculation of the CEF and a reset to Zero Ahrs consumed.
> Also, somewhere i heard, the rule of thumb is 1 mile per battery? They
> are gonna let me charge at the referee, indeed, they asked me to get
> there early so I can charge and the teacher wants to show his class.
> (the referee station is at the vocational school) AND it is 15 miles one
> way.
> Will I make it? the math seems to indicate I will.
Bill Dube's "rule of thumb" is that 800 lbs of floodeds equals one gallon of
gas. I.e. if you convert a car that originally got 20mpg and load it with 800
lbs of floodies, you can expect 20 miles range.
> is this also correct? 12ah for 6 miles is 2ah/mile @288V = 576
> Wh/mile? ack, that is terrible.
You said above that you thought it started at 2 ah, so lets say you only used
10.2, so 10.2 ah / 6.6 miles = 1.54 ah/mile @ 288 v = 445 wh/mile, better...
But fully charge the batteries and I'll bet you see a difference.
Hope this helps
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
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I derived mine from this MAXIM-IC application note
http://pdfserv.maxim-ic.com/en/an/A0912.pdf
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Poulsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 7:09 PM
Subject: Load testing EV components
> I'm wanting to do some higher-current load tests (up to 12V / 50A
> (600W), for now), and I'm wondering what people are using for load
> cells. I think Mr. Rudman mentioned using either Kanthal or Nicrhome to
> wind his own load resistors for testing the PFC series. I have a roll
> of Nichrome -- where does one get the ceramic forms to wind the wire
> on? Anyone have any tips on load resistor building? Ideally, I'd have
> separate taps or different sized resistors to change the loading.
>
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Well, the low tech guys use a bucket of water, a wire coat hanger and a
set of jumper cables :-)
I've used metal banding straps (the type they strap heavy objects/boxes
down to pallets with), nails and plywood.
Some folks have used water heater coils. The wire type space heaters
probably would work too. Hmm, you might find these at a goodwill store,
you could always strip them for parts.
I don't know of a source for ceramic forms, but I'd imagine you could get
them at an electrical supply store or maybe a farm store. I don't know if
they still make ceramic insulators for electric fences, but they used to.
> I'm wanting to do some higher-current load tests (up to 12V / 50A
> (600W), for now), and I'm wondering what people are using for load
> cells. I think Mr. Rudman mentioned using either Kanthal or Nicrhome to
> wind his own load resistors for testing the PFC series. I have a roll
> of Nichrome -- where does one get the ceramic forms to wind the wire
> on? Anyone have any tips on load resistor building? Ideally, I'd have
> separate taps or different sized resistors to change the loading.
>
>
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Been there done that, if you want variable load:
i choose to drive a Mosfet (s) gate(s) instead of "separate taps or
different sized resistors to change the loading"
a power resistor is connected to MOSFET drain then to ground.
Varying gate voltage give easily and "accurately" more or less resistance
and then permit using the MOS in his linear mode.
Be careful with Mosfet max power, i used from my Junk box IRF540 which is
rated and ok at his max 150W but ONLY with BIG dissipator + fan.
Using other MOS or adding some in parralel give you more load power.
this said, upper 2Kw load power, Nichrome is simpler/less costy because heat
sink/fan assembly become "giantic" an so expensive with MOS solution.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Poulsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 7:09 PM
Subject: Load testing EV components
> I'm wanting to do some higher-current load tests (up to 12V / 50A
> (600W), for now), and I'm wondering what people are using for load
> cells. I think Mr. Rudman mentioned using either Kanthal or Nicrhome to
> wind his own load resistors for testing the PFC series. I have a roll
> of Nichrome -- where does one get the ceramic forms to wind the wire
> on? Anyone have any tips on load resistor building? Ideally, I'd have
> separate taps or different sized resistors to change the loading.
>
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Oups, correcting my "no brain fast keyboard" mistake:
MOSFET source to power resistor then to ground.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: Load testing EV components
> Been there done that, if you want variable load:
> i choose to drive a Mosfet (s) gate(s) instead of "separate taps or
> different sized resistors to change the loading"
> a power resistor is connected to MOSFET drain then to ground.
> Varying gate voltage give easily and "accurately" more or less resistance
> and then permit using the MOS in his linear mode.
> Be careful with Mosfet max power, i used from my Junk box IRF540 which is
> rated and ok at his max 150W but ONLY with BIG dissipator + fan.
> Using other MOS or adding some in parralel give you more load power.
>
> this said, upper 2Kw load power, Nichrome is simpler/less costy because
heat
> sink/fan assembly become "giantic" an so expensive with MOS solution.
>
> cordialement,
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eric Poulsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 7:09 PM
> Subject: Load testing EV components
>
>
> > I'm wanting to do some higher-current load tests (up to 12V / 50A
> > (600W), for now), and I'm wondering what people are using for load
> > cells. I think Mr. Rudman mentioned using either Kanthal or Nicrhome to
> > wind his own load resistors for testing the PFC series. I have a roll
> > of Nichrome -- where does one get the ceramic forms to wind the wire
> > on? Anyone have any tips on load resistor building? Ideally, I'd have
> > separate taps or different sized resistors to change the loading.
> >
>
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Rich
7 minutes I am impresed.
If you can recharge an EV in 7 minutes repeatable there is no point us
developing EV batteries. If the dreaded overnight charge is no longer
required what is stopping the market in EV's taking off ?.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
> Sure....
> Not a problem....
>
> This should be a nice learning process....
> How many Kwhr does your "EV" store ???
>
> I hope you have a healthy check book. 150Kw chargers are not cheap...or
> small.
>
> I have a couple of 7 minute cycles in my log book.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 11:04 AM
> Subject: Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
>
>
> > I am planning to develop a car battery that can be fully charged in 5
> minutes. Is there anyone who would like to get involved in this project ?
> >
>
>
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> I'm wanting to do some higher-current load tests (up to 12V / 50A
> (600W), for now), and I'm wondering what people are using for load
> cells.
There are many "electronic load" devices out there you could consider---and
they appear on the surplus/ebay market.
Some are pricey.
I've been borrowing an out of production Omega 750R electronic load to test
the Vicor-based chargers I've built for my electric boat and car. No specs,
but the unit I used seemed to handle at least 30amps and 72v subject to the
750watt limit. There are beefier ones out there and with different load
modes including resistive, constant current, others (?)...
-Myles Twete, Portland
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