EV Digest 5203
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: C?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Discounted Electric Bills for Having EV ?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Dean Kamen's sterling generator,
Govenators green website & Robert Q Riley
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Dean Kamen's sterling generator,
Govenators green website & Robert Q Riley
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Dump charge: off-grid on the cheap - if only we had more public charging
stations;-)
by Brian Cole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Using an AC rated fuse in DC.
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Fwd: Load testing EV components
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Battery powered Trains, and hybrids
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Using an AC rated fuse in DC.
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: C?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: White Zombie to Elude the Police this Saturday!
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: C?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Fwd: Load testing EV components
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
by Justin Southam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
by "Alan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Discounted Electric Bills for Having EV ?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Fwd: New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) pages
by jerry halstead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: S10 Motor Mount questions
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Dean Kamen's sterling generator, Govenators green website & R obert Q
Riley
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: e-meter prescaler question
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Discounted Electric Bills for Having EV ?
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Victor,
>> So, by definition a charge rate of 1C will try to charge a battery
>> in 1 hour if we neglect losses.
>
>Sorry, this statement is meaningless in terms that it doesn't give
>you the rate (amps).
Sure it does, take the battery capacity (Ah) and divide by 1h, result is A,
example for my batteries: 110Ah / 1 hour = 110A
Now note that I said "ignore losses".
If you really need to stuff 110Ah in a battery, you need to supply more than
110A for 1 hour or, to make the battery live longer, you need to charge over
a longer time, but theoretical this is 1C rate of charge.
I agree with you that capacity varies with the discharge rate, notably at
1h discharge you often get less than 70% of the 20h discharge, simply by
the losses in the battery.
That does not change the definition of the capacity 'C' though - that is
most commonly used for the capacity (Ah) achieved in 20 hour discharge.
It also does not change the common use of charge *rate* where a 1C rate
means the amount of current of the capacity C (in Ah) divided by 1 hour.
>Anything divided by 1 (hour) yields the same number.
Yeah, but not the same unit. We are talking about the current here.
Charging a 110Ah battery at 1C means sending 110A into the poor thing.
Charging a 600mAh cell at C/10 means sending 60mA through it.
Blasting 100C into a 2.3Ah cell needs 230A
I am not sure where you disagree with me on this.
>so according to you for 100Ah battery "C" always mean 100A rate, for
>20Ah battery "C" means 20A rate and so on, right? Not quite so; as you,
>I see different definitions. For instance consider
>http://www.answers.com/topic/battery-electricity
>They state "C" as rate at 20 hr discharge time, not 1 hour.
Now you are truly confusing *capacity* (Ah) with my statement
about *current* (A). The link you provided says it clearly under
the sub-title "battery capacity" that the capacity is measured in
a 10 or 20 hour test. No contradictions there.
It may be good to distinguish between the *definition* of capacity C
and the use of the same C as a *factor* in the calculation of current
when dividing it by a certain number of hours to yield a current that
is relative to the capacity of the battery.
The capacity (Ah) is commonly measured using a 20-hour discharge period.
Now, if a battery is subjected to a *current* that is expressed as 'C'
this means that the capacity must be divided by 1 hour to get this current
although the battery won't be able to sustain this current for one hour
due to losses and can't be charged from 0% to 100% in one hour with this
current, again due to losses.
But it is a way to specify a quality of a technology: "this battery can be
charged at 10C." That means you can send 20A into a 2Ah battery without
damaging it (at least up to 80% of its capacity usually).
Hope this clarifies,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 10:25 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: C?
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Hi Victor,
> I insist that you are confused about 'C'.
That's rather the uncertainty Peter expressed.
> The capacity C is referenced in many places, actually you already
> agreed in another place with my statement and then for the charging
> definition you suddenly disagree. Please re-read your own statements
> to see the discrepancy.
> I Googled "c capacity charge rate" and found may references, for
> example the one at:
> http://www.greenbatteries.com/batteryterms.html
> "C - Used to signify a charge or discharge rate equal to the capacity of a
> battery divided by 1 hour."
No, what you read is that capacity expression is accepted in Amp-hours
(or milliamp-hours), not amp minutes or amp days.
Anything divided by 1 (hour) yields the same number. so according
to you for 100Ah battery "C" always mean 100A rate, for
20Ah battery "C" means 20A rate and so on, right? Not quite so; as you,
I see different definitions. For instance consider
http://www.answers.com/topic/battery-electricity
They state "C" as rate at 20 hr discharge time, not 1 hour.
> So, by definition a charge rate of 1C will try to charge a battery
> in 1 hour if we neglect losses.
Sorry, this statement is meaningless in terms that it doesn't give
you the rate (amps).
If course, 100Ah battery will be charged at 100A rate to complete
in one hour. That doesn't mean its C expressed for that rate
though. You may be able to stuff in 120Ah in this battery if charge
slower, say at 6A, which will take 20 hours then. So the capacity
of this very battery can be declared as 120Ah, and "C" rate
becomes 120A right? All depends on what the manufacturer chose as
the time period *for rating number*, not for actual *your* discharge
or 1 hour rate and resulting capacity at that discharge. So the "C" for
the battery above then is 120, not 100, just because manufacturer chose
to demonstrate capacity over 20 hrs, not over 1 hr. These are two
common accepted numbers (could've been anything in between), but
you never know which is applied unless stated. Thus the confusion.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andy,
Please review the discount at the following page,
Schedule R-1, rate B, sub (3)
http://www.ladwp.com/ladwp/cms/ladwp001710.jsp
You get a discount of 2.5c per kWh for EV from LADWP,
according to this, at the TOU metered rate B.
Your base period rate will also be substantially lower
than for the flat-rate A.
You can already select to get part of your electricity
from renewable sources using the "Service Rider REO"
http://www.ladwp.com/ladwp/cms/ladwp001767.jsp
As soon as you have net-connected electricity generation
from solar you seem to fall under the "Service Rider NEM"
http://www.ladwp.com/ladwp/cms/ladwp001768.jsp
Please contact LADWP for a verification of all this,
I just googled their website.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Dr. Andy Mars
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 11:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Discounted Electric Bills for Having EV ?
Greetings, All,
I remember once hearing about some power companies providing a discounted
rate for electric bills for those who have EVs and charge them at home -
does anyone know anything about this?
My power comes from LADWP - (Los Angeles Department of Water and Power) -
[and, I hope to ultimately solar power my house here, if I can figure out
how to get some of the rebate money that is supposedly available - I have
tried with DWP again and again, but they keep claiming they are not taking
applications, for the last two years!!!] -
Looking forward to any assistance anyone can provide -
Much obliged -
Until next INTERNEcTion -
Take care (and spread it around) -
Peace,
Andy
Andy Mars, Ph.D. - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Youth Services from Mars
Educational Consulting, Counseling, and Tutoring Services
Students Taking Action & Responsibility Today
Hands-On Community Service Activities for Children
Camp Exploration
Winter, Spring, & Summer Programs
www.KidsMakeADifference.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've seen a 10kw sterling generator that wasn't all that big, about the
size of a two drawer filing cabinet.
However, it wasn't all that reliable. Seemed to be down waiting on parts
more often than it was up and running.
IIRC it used nitrogen as a working fluid and must have leaked because they
always had a couple bottles hooked up to the system.
One of the reasons you don't see more of these, besides the reliability
issue, is the cost. You could have bought a small village for what the
above generator cost.
> Yes, I've always wished that a Stirling generator could be used for a
> hybrid
> EV. You wouldn't have to give up that silent EV feeling when the generator
> was running. They do tend to weight more than a similarly-sized ICE
> engine,
> though, so a 10kW engine might be fairly hefty. And even at $1000/kW,
> you'd
> still be paying $10,000 for one that could run a small car. Y-ouch.
> Still,
> I'd love to see the look on people's faces when you told them your car ran
> on an External Combustion Engine.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Neon John
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 1:51 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Dean Kamen's sterling generator, Govenators green website &
> Robert Q Riley
>
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 10:00:32 -0600, "Mike Ellis"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>I agree the segway was an over-hyped launch. But Kaman actually has made
>>some products that have greatly improved the lives of others.
>>
>>-wearable infusion pump
>>-wearable insulin pump
>
> He wasn't the first on either of these. I'm a diabetic and am
> intimately familiar with the tools of the trade. .... Damn, I brain
> farted. I had the name of the first one on the tip of my tongue and
> it slipped off. It was a huge, dumb thing but a vast improvement for
> brittle Type I diabetics.
>
>>-home dialysis machine
>>-wheelchair that climbs stairs, raises the user to standing height, works
> on
>>unpaved surfaces.
>
> Is that wheelchair actually being made? My mom could use one if it
> is. I've looked before and could never find anything more than the
> hype.
>
>>
>>And if they can get the price of that kilowatt stirling generator down to
>>that $1000 price point, I'm buying one for the cottage!
>
> Yeah, me too. I'd LOVE to have a stirling power plant. My only
> question is why hasn't it happened before now? I don't see any
> pressing material or knowledge barriers. I know a lot of people would
> almost kill for an essentially silent generator.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo
> Emerson
>
>
>
>
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Are stirling devices silent? I thought they could be quite noisy ( I think
> I
> read that in WIRED a number of years ago).
Nope they are fairly noisey. The 10kw one they have at Ft Huachua can be
heard from a couple hundred yards away....when it's running.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
The dual dc-dc's are to push regen into the caps when the caps are at a
voltage higher than the regen energy created, this gives regen braking
at low speeds. The other direction is to drain the caps below the pack
voltage during finishing and maintain a certain level in the caps for
launches. :-)
I have seen bidirectional dc-dc's in books. maybe rich can achieve the
power levels we would need for EV currents.
Been done:
http://www.brusa.biz/products/e_bdc412347.htm
Do you want one?
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The discussions on battery tech, range extension,
multiple packs, etc. has caused my imagination to go
just a bit wild. If enough spenders acquire EV's
perhaps some store chain, say Ikea, would see fit to
install free charging stations to attract those
customers. The enterprising ev'er might top off, then
go home & use the electricity for the home.
With the powerful cordless batteries now possible, how
about making ev mini-packs? Just bring along an armful
of 'em when visiting a buddy & charge up. I guess this
is one way of going off-grid that probably hasn't been
written up in Home Power Magazine. Anyone gathering
enough surplus power could sell power back to the
utility. Well, maybe that's a bit over-the-top.
Could be I need a primer on EV charging etiquette. As
fun & crazy as this notion seems, surely someone
must've dabbled in doing something like this, if only
as a lark. Any stories?
-brian
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich wrote
I hope you have a healthy check book. 150Kw chargers are not cheap...or
small.
You mean it won't fit in my trunk.....<G>
The charger or the check book?? :-)
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:58 PM 22/02/06 -0500, Chris wrote:
Recently I was testing fuses on my flooded NiCd packs and accidentally
shorted out a 32 volt DC rated main fuse (100a) across the pack (with a
300a DC rated forklift fuse as backup). This is a 36 volt pack.
The fuse basically disintegrated into a beautiful plasma ball. I opened
the circuit by kicking it with my foot, however it incinerated the top of
one of my batteries. And it didn't even open the 300amp fuse.
Thus AIR is extremely important in DC rated fuses. This fuse did not have
one, but it was probably only a few hundred amp peak. I blew it with a
3,000 amp short.
That is why you NEED high Rupture Capacity (HRC) fuses around traction
packs, regardless of the load amperage. Your fuse opened into a plasma arc
whose impedence kept the amperage well within the rating of the 300A HRC
fuse, probably getting nowhere near 3000A, maybe only aproached 300A as it
ignited and falling off once the plasma arc formed.
32V rated fuse means it was designed for a (crappy automotive-style wiring)
24V system. put it into a nice stiff pack with decent wiring at 36V nominal
(maybe 40+ volts at full charge) and you have a recipe for trouble, as you
experienced.
Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've done something similar using an Inverter and one or more 300 watt
work lights.
Only (minor) problem is that it only works with individual batteries or
low voltage packs.
When trying to load an entire pack, it's probably easier to use some kind
of heating element designed for high voltage.
> --- Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> I'm wanting to do some higher-current load tests (up to 12V / 50A
>> (600W), for now), and I'm wondering what people are using for load
>> cells.
>
> How about a UPS? I have an old one from the office that had a bad battery.
> It's rated to handle
> the wattage, just plug in enough lights to get the load you need. I don't
> know what the
> relationship between what it's drwaing from the batteries and what it's
> supplying to the outlets
> is though. Any reaosn this wouldn't work?
>
> Dave Cover
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It was done to be able to drive to the base stations while no mains
power is available. Having exposed 3rd rail
is safety hazard even if guarded - having live voltage along
unattended track at ski resort is disallowed. The track is
high but within reach of a man at some places. I had
privilege to inspect it.
Fast charge is available on the end stations via knife sliding
contacts on the sides of the car.
Victor
Lee Hart wrote:
M Bianchi wrote:
Have a look at The Coaster ...
http://www.coaster.at/?frs=30&lid=2
http://www.coaster.at/?lid=2&pid=17&tid=53&mid=22
http://www.brusa.biz/applications/e_coaster_details.htm
Interesting!
I wonder why they put batteries in each vehicle? Given that it operates
on an elevated track, I would have thought a third rail would have made
more sense for powering it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:22 PM 22/02/06 -0800, Nick Austin wrote:
On Wed, Feb 22, 2006 at 01:58:49PM -0500, Christopher Zach wrote:
> The problem is this: AC breakers and fuses are designed to break AC
> loads. This is apparently not too hard as the voltage on an AC line
> swings to zero a certain number of times per second. Thus the arcs tend
> to self-extinguish.
Is this why high power DC breakers are so huge and expensive?
Hi Nick - and all
Sure is, once you get into serious power switching, DC breakers (and
contactors) seem to be around 5x to 10x their AC-only comparable rated
cousins, and 4x to 5x bigger, with big arc chutes and all the rest of the
business.
Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Exactly right! THAT's the source of confusion, not our
understanding. If they would tell you what discharge time length
their "C" definition refers to, all be clear, but they don't bother.
Victor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
<<< No, what you read is that capacity expression is accepted in Amp-hours
(or milliamp-hours), not amp minutes or amp days.
Anything divided by 1 (hour) yields the same number. so according
to you for 100Ah battery "C" always mean 100A rate, for
20Ah battery "C" means 20A rate and so on, right? Not quite so; as you,
I see different definitions. For instance consider
http://www.answers.com/topic/battery-electricity
They state "C" as rate at 20 hr discharge time, not 1 hour.>>>
The 20hr discharge capacity is what most of us use as "C" for lead-acid.
...but some manufacturers use other rates - Hawker likes C/10 and some NiMH's
use C/3, so the "actual" hour-basis for C may vary occasionally.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roy LeMeur wrote:
John is really into his breakfast, he actually has a photo album of his
breakfast plates :^D
Breakfast is the key!
How do you spell it - breakfast or break fast?
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
Victor,
So, by definition a charge rate of 1C will try to charge a battery
in 1 hour if we neglect losses.
Sorry, this statement is meaningless in terms that it doesn't give
you the rate (amps).
Sure it does, take the battery capacity (Ah) and divide by 1h, result is A,
example for my batteries: 110Ah / 1 hour = 110A
Gee, Cor, you're clever! It's like saying if I eat apples
at rate 5 lb/hr the weight of apples I can eat in one hour is 5 lb. Very
informative.
Now note that I said "ignore losses".
I never brought losses in the discussion, it is indeed assumed to be 100%.
If you really need to stuff 110Ah in a battery, you need to supply more than
110A for 1 hour or, to make the battery live longer, you need to charge over
a longer time, but theoretical this is 1C rate of charge.
I agree with you that capacity varies with the discharge rate, notably at
1h discharge you often get less than 70% of the 20h discharge, simply by
the losses in the battery.
That does not change the definition of the capacity 'C' though - that is
most commonly used for the capacity (Ah) achieved in 20 hour discharge.
It also does not change the common use of charge *rate* where a 1C rate
means the amount of current of the capacity C (in Ah) divided by 1 hour.
Key word is "common use". This means you're never sure, each
manufacturer can use as uncommon numbers as it pleased.
If you recall, this was the source of confusion, not the definition
of "C".
...
Now, if a battery is subjected to a *current* that is expressed as 'C'
this means that the capacity ...
AT WHAT RATE???
...must be divided by 1 hour to get this current
Cor, sorry, you seem to loose the focus of the debate.
But it is a way to specify a quality of a technology: "this battery can be
charged at 10C." That means you can send 20A into a 2Ah battery without
damaging it (at least up to 80% of its capacity usually).
I perfectly understand that. Issue was that when you send in 20A into
2Ah battery it is no longer 2Ah battery at that rate, rather
1.7Ah (if lead) so 20A *IS NOT* 20C then.
It was suggested that C rate (amps) must be expressed as capacity
number but capacity not at 1 hour or 20 hours but at that particular
rate (6 minutes in your example as 20A into 2Ah battery is 10C
and 10C is 10 times shorter than 1C and you claim that 1C is 1 hour
so 10C rate is 0.1 hour or 6 min.
As I said and maintain the problem is at 20A the battery isn't
2Ah anymore (rather, say, 1.7Ah) so 20A isn't 10C either
(rather 20A/1.7Ah=11.76C).
This would be very confusing if "C" would slide all over
as rate change, so I agree most manufacturers settle on C
rate as capacity divided by such current that required
to empty the battery in exactly one hour. No arguments there.
Most manufacturers. Not all. Some still use 20 hours here,
some may use other number. No consistency, that's all I'm saying.
No, I'm not confusing with common capacity definition which
is Ah delivered over discharge time of 20 hours (whatever current
this will correspond to).
I don't think there is no need to drag this any further... :-)
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I'm wanting to do some higher-current load tests (up to 12V / 50A
> (600W), for now), and I'm wondering what people are using for load
> cells.
Hmm, somewhere along the way I lost site of the original goal (12V testing)
Ok here is what I've done and it has a couple of nifty advantages.
Get a 1kw or large inverter (available cheap on eBay), some 150W and/or
300W work lights, and a 110V electrical clock with hands.
Set the clock to 12:00 and power it from the inverter, connect up enough
lamps to work out to about 80%-90% of your desired load (the inverter will
add the rest).
Charge up the battery and connect everything up.
Now here's the nifty part, most inverters have a low voltage cut out
(usually 10.5V). So when the voltage drops enough, the inverter shuts off
and the clock stops and displays the elapsed time.
One disadvantage, this puts a constant POWER load and not a constant
CURRENT load on the battery. Personally I think that's more usefull
however, at least for an EV.
You can add some automation by purchasing an multimeter with a computer
interface (radio shack, among others, sells these). Then your PC can log
current, or voltage, while you are running the discharge.
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If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rich, and all, i have been giving some thought to rev limiters for my
own project. As well as rpm i plan to monitor the rate of change. If (for
example) the rpm changes from 1000 to 4000 in 1 second chances are its
running unloaded, missed shift, broken chain etc, shutdown or open a
contactor, why wait til it hits the rev limiter. After dragging out a dusty
old textbook i think i can differentiate the signal from the rpm sensor to
measure the delta rpm and trigger when it exceeds the determined threshold.
Of course it could be done in software, and would have the limiter as
secondary protection. Otmar, if your listening, have you considered this
idea? Do you think it has merit?
Cheers,
Justin
At 22:42 22-02-06 -0800, Rich wrote:
>We need built up comms and Carbon tape restrained comms. Or Faster Rev
>limiters.
>
>
>Rich Rudman
>Manzanita Micro.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David
>
> Am I missing the point here ?
>
> My understanding is that at best an EV can do 50 to 70 miles before
> recharging. These modern EV's are great for in town, but people are scared
> of running out of power on long journeys or having to wait hours for a
> recharge.
>
> Now if these chargers can charge the vehicles to 80 % within 7 minutes,
> that means that after a quick charge they can go an extra 40 to 50 miles
untill they stop for dinner.
> I believe this is a winner certainly for a small country like England. We
> would just need to install chargers in enouth garages/outlets for a
> quick recharge. Say a few thousand chargers would probably cover half the
> country.
>
> Is this how it works ? or do we still need development on the battery
> front.?
>
> In England I dont see a problem with pulling enough power off the grid.
> There are 3 phase high voltage supplies in most areas over here.
>
>
> Alan
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 11:43 PM
Subject: Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
> On 22 Feb 2006 at 19:50, Alan wrote:
>
> > I have looked at developing the 5 minute recharge battery as a big
> > breakthrough that would help to make EV's viable.
>
> Breakthrough? Let me try this from a different angle.
>
> An AGM lead acid battery can already be charged to 80% (close enough for
> most purposes) about as rapidly as it can be discharged.
>
> Let's look at an AGM lead battery that might be used for a high voltage AC
> drive vehicle, 288 volts at 60 amp hours (1 hour rate) (~17 kWh).
>
> To charge from 20% SOC (a reasonable lower limit) to 80% (threshold of
> gassing voltage), we need 36 amp hours at perhaps 432 volts (I'm guessing
> 50% above nominal voltage for fast charging; possibly not accurate and
> amenable to correction, but we're speculating here anyway). That's 15.6
> kWh to be shoved into the battery in 5 minutes. That would require
> supplying 187 kilowatts, or (at 432 volts) 432 amps.
>
> That charging current is eminently reasonable, and well within the
capability
> of any decent existing AGM battery. Heck, the drag racers run far more
> current than that on discharge.
>
> I sure can see the power infrastructure problem, and it's formidable. But
I
> guess I don't see the >battery< problem that needs to be solved. What am I
> missing here?
>
>
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In fresno, California, I looked into this.
If you are willing to have a seperate meter set for the task, they
will sell power at 5 cents a kwh if used between midnight and 7am.
Doesn't have to be an EV, Maybe I should buy some submarine bateries and
an inverter ;-) they would then charge 35 cents on other hours. Normal
power around here is 13.5 cents/kwh in tier1 winter up to 35 tier3.
For me, this hasn't been worth it yet, I need a mid day charge and don't
like the idea of having my car sit discharged for 6-8 hours before I am
allowed to charge.
I look at it this way, Worst case; my car can hold 16kwh, of which 11kwh
is max. 80% of that is 9kw. If I used all 9kw every day to commute (i
use 1/2 that) it would be 180 kwh * .135 is $24 of electricity if in
tier2, On a comparison I just filled the tank on my gasser, $35 bucks! I
used to do that 4 times a month, I will see if the EV lets me drop this
to once a month. oh, and they let me charge at work , EV sized grin!
addendum. I may be on a slightly different rate structure than most
because of the grid tie system. I have a winter rate schedule of
.1143,.12989,.178. Summer can go way up, and time of use can be 35/8
around here; so that is an option for non grid tie folks.
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Jim
I really liked the step-by-step of the field rebuild. I have a much better
appreciation of how
much goes into these things. If your taking requests, I'd like to see more
about rebuilding the
brush end. And the comm banding. And timing adjustments. And .... well anything
you put up helps.
Dave Cover
PS Any chance you can include a PDF order form on the site for things like Fusa
fab, brushes, etc?
Nothing fancy, just something I can print and mail in with a check.
--- Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:32:41 -0800 (PST)
> From: Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
> To: [email protected]
>
> Hey everyone
>
> I've put up some new pics and albums for everyone to have a peek at. I've
> added 2 pages to
> Richard Rau's album detailing the field coil repairs. I actually ran into
> another "little"
> issue when I went to removed them 8^ ) I've got pics of the mod's being
> done to Rod's Gone
> Postal front ADC9 motor's brush ring. I've added a "bad shafts and repairs
> album that I'm sure
> will fill up fast, hehe, although for now there is just a couple there. The
> shaft I just got
> from Marko's new project had an issue or two (he didn't do the damage) so
> have a look and see
> what you all think, and how long it took to figure something wasn't working
> right, lmao. I also
> created a album for the copper art I've been playing around with for a little
> OT entertainment,
> although some of it was made with old field coil wire, if that counts.
>
> I've put about 10 hours in the last two days getting it up which is longer
> than it should take
> but I'm still learning how to do it and when you factor in my chicken peck
> typing skills and
> well the hours just burn right by 8^ ) In fact I didn't even need to cry
> for help to Chris
> Robison this time or nottin, LMAO!!! Much love goes out to Chris for all the
> time he's spent
> helping me create the site and teaching me the does and don't.
>
> I'll be posting pics of 2 cracked ADC 9 comms which brings the total to 3
> that I've seen so
> far. One of these was damaged when the owner was setting the rpm limit at
> 7000 rpm and it blew
> a bar while cold and under no load or hard amps. When I opened it up it had
> not only a lifted
> bar but 2 cracks running from shaft to bar, so this comm was a hand grenade
> just waiting to kill
> his other internal motor parts. The interesting thing was that the bar was
> not only lifted but
> bowed in the middle. I've ordered some Kevlar and resin and will start
> offering banded comms.
> I feel the middle comm area has to be banded in addition to both ends or the
> bars will just bow
> out when exceeded rpms exist. The ADC comm. will allow this because of the
> brush bridge
> separating the two brush pairs. I wanted to let everyone know that the rpm
> limit on the 9"
> motors may be lower than previously thought, and it's a complete shame to see
> these beautiful
> armatures with no signs of heat blowing bars!
> . More
> to follow as I get the Kevlar in and start playing and then send them out to
> the bad motor
> killing men I know, hehehe.
> Anyways I just thought I'd try to shed a little light gleaned from the
> darkness of my little
> dungeon.
> Hope you enjoy
> http:///
>
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!
>
>
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Hi folks,
For anyone looking for free hosting Google has released a new service.
http://pages.google.com/
It lets you create your own web pages, with images, a variety of
styles, etc...
Works nicely with Firefox on most platforms.
http://www.getfirefox.com/
-Jerry
http://www.evconvert.com/
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Hello Rush,
A clearance of 3/4 inch should be ok. My GE 11.5 inch motor has only a 1/2
clearance. The problem you may have is the flex in the motor mounting of
being only 10 gage and the way it is mounted.
My mounting points on the motor band is lower on the band which is at 45
degrees to the cross member. I am using a standard engine mount that bolts
on top of the cross member and bolts to the side of the motor band.
A steel bar spacer is welded on the side of the band which may be from 1/2
to 1 inch thick which is tapped with for 1/2 inch grade eight bolts for
fastening the engine mount too. I had to make mine 5/8 inch thick so that
the motor and transmission is completely parallel to the axles of the
differential yoke with a drive line angle of about 2 degrees.
You should maintain the same angle of the drive line from the transmission
to the axle as it was with the engine. When the car is jack up, this could
be about 4 inches difference in about 72 inches. When the car is down, the
driveline angle should not go below 1.5 degrees. You need some drive line
angle to make the u-joints bearing work, or they will wear out quicker and
may have some vibration when you have these two units inline.
With the car down, take a angle degree reading of the differential axles and
used that same degree angle when installing your motor and transmission. You
will then have the motor and differential parallel to each other.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 11:58 PM
Subject: S10 Motor Mount questions
> Hi all,
>
> I have some questions about my motor mount on my S-10
>
> 1) how far away from the firewall should the bellhousing be?
>
> 2) I've had to make a new mount and would like some feedback, at
> http://www.ironandwood.org/s10motormount.htm there are some pictures and
> descriptions which will help you to understand my dilemma.
>
> How have others that have S10's and 9" ADC's mounted their motors?
> The problem is that there is a big cross member that sits about 3/4" below
> the motor and I can't use the original mounts, so I have gotten new ones
> and am starting to fabricate a new mount. Before I get too far along I'd
> like some feed back, so if you could go to the site and look at the pics,
> I'd appreciate it.
>
> Thanks
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
>
>
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>>>Still,
I'd love to see the look on people's faces when you told them your car ran
on an External Combustion Engine.
Bill Dennis
>>>
Probably similar to the look I get when I tell people I heat my house with
ground water. ...HUH?...
Or the look the deer gives you just before it enters your grill....
Hump
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Hello Paul,
There should be no problem. I am running a Link 10 0 to 499 volt prescaler
that has a built in DC-DC 12 volt isolator for a 180 volt battery pack. I
later plan to used a 240 volt pack that will have a 300 volt peak which is
the maximum I will have the controller.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "paul wiley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evdl" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 10:24 PM
Subject: e-meter prescaler question
> Any reason not to buy the 500 volt prescaler instead of the 100 volt when
> i only have a 48 volt pack?
> Dad always said that you should plan for the future so i was
> thinkin....but then again i thought it might not be as accurate with the
> 500 volt version.
> Thoughts?
> thanks paul
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> What are the most popular cars? Find out at Yahoo! Autos
>
>
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Am I missing the point here ?
Maybe , When you start really doing stuff , it many times turns out
different than you think. I have a EV that I charge in 10 minutes , and do
so up to 10 times a day .
It has 8 orbitals and I've pumped as much as 250 amps into it ( just to see
the e meter run backwards ) , but most times I charge at about 100 amp and
replacing 15 ah in less that 10 minutes . I am using an old golf cart speed
controller which is a big coil of wire with taps and a wiper to pick the tap
as the charge controller and get the power form my 120v work truck. The
last 2 amp hours or the part where the voltage goes over 14 v I leave till
the end of the day . So I stay between %50 dod and charge to %5 dod most of
the time.
My understanding is that at best an EV can do 50 to 70 miles before
recharging.
My Work truck which I use to charge the above EV lawn mower has 40 golf cart
batteries and could do your 70 miles but would take 200 ah to fill . at 240
volts that 100 amp to do in 1 hour. 400 for a 15 minute or 1200amps for your
5 minute charge. Not to hard to make a short distance ev that will charge
fast and go fast , but making a long distance car go fast, charge fast , is
another story.
These modern EV's are great for in town, but people are scared
of running out of power on long journeys or having to wait hours for a
recharge.
If you are trying to make a EV do what gas loving people want at the price
they want to pay , you are in for some hart brake. You could spend under 20
thousand and get a 40 mile 1 hour ( maybe 20 minute / 2 pfc 50's ) but more
miles and less time are going to make the price go up fast , and you'll be
using stuff that's "real world" un tested .
Now if these chargers can charge the vehicles to 80 % within 7 minutes,
that means that after a quick charge they can go an extra 40 to 50 miles
until they stop for dinner.
You could do 40 orbitals , 2 strings of 20 , and a pfc 50 for each string ,
you could plug each charger into a different plug , each needing 50 amp 240v
. or have a dump pack to charge form , like 50 golf cart batteries . With a
dump charger you would be doing about the same thing I'm doing , just more
batteries , like I charge the 8 orbitals ( 96v ) form my work truck which
has 40 golf cart batteries in 2 strings of 20.
I believe this is a winner certainly for a small country like England. We
would just need to install chargers in enough garages/outlets for a
quick recharge. Say a few thousand chargers would probably cover half the
country.
Riche's PFC 50 charger could easy ride along in the car so now all you need
is the outlets ( and the money).
If you told somebody they could have a ev that would charge in 10 minutes
for $25k or a 5 minute of $50k would 1/2 the charging time be worth 2 times
the money?
Is this how it works ? or do we still need development on the battery
front.?
The time looks like it is now. Maybe not 5 minute but 10 minute right now ,
and for people with smaller check books 30 minute charging .
Here is the thing with people , if they have to choise between the nice com
fee ride on a big vacation cruse ship or getting out of that ship and into
a small life boat they will stay on the cruse ship . If I'm on this curse
ship and I know its going to hit a rock ( peak oil ) and sink I'll want to
try out a life boat before , I'll want to see that it works and learn how to
handle it . So when people on the ship say "I'd never get in one of those "
or " it just won't do what I need it to do " , we just need to keep going as
"They " just don't see the rock ( peak oil ) up ahead.
In England I don't see a problem with pulling enough power off the grid.
There are 3 phase high voltage supplies in most areas over here.
And gas is how much ??? per gallon now , why aren't there Ev's all over
England, ? You could be the one to get this started ,,,,.
Start a branch of www.grassrootsev.com where your at ..
I'd say your "missing the point" if you don't do somthing now , even if 5
minute charging is not doable with todays batteries its not so far off.
Steve Clunn
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We're with Edison. They have a program for EV charging. We have a TOU
(time-of-use) meter for EV Charging. If we charge between 9pm and 12noon
it's a discounted rate.
Next time you call DWP, inquire about TOU meters.
Marv
Culver City
> From: "Dr. Andy Mars" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 23:33:56 -0800
> To: <[email protected]>
> Subject: Discounted Electric Bills for Having EV ?
>
> Greetings, All,
>
> I remember once hearing about some power companies providing a discounted
> rate for electric bills for those who have EVs and charge them at home -
> does anyone know anything about this?
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