EV Digest 5204
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Battery Breakthrough Article - Interesting !
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Small Bad Dumb Charger (was: RE: Big ...)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: e-meter prescaler question
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Using an AC rated fuse in DC.
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Load testing EV components
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Battery powered Trains, and hybrids
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: C?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
by "Alan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutesand other Fantesys.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Battery powered Trains, and hybrids
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) FW: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: S10 Motor Mount questions
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Small Bad Dumb Charger (was: RE: Big ...)
by kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: C?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: e-meter prescaler question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: S10 Motor Mount questions
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) It's the energy density problem (was: Battery charging in only 5
minutes)
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: It's the energy density problem (was: Battery charging in only 5
minutes)
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Battery powered Trains, and hybrids
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Have recently subscribed to a few Google News Services, one on
EVs and one on Hybrids..
This article came through last night...
Thought some might be interested:
http://www.technologyreview.com/BizTech/wtr_16410,295,p1.html
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rush wrote:
>>
>> Lee,
>>
>> I would like to have the circuit. I have 30 batteries sitting on
>> my floor waiting for my charger.. (hint, hint).
Lee Hart replied:
> Ouch! Who kicked me? ... Anyway, keep kicking me on your project!
> I needed a reminder to get back to working on it, and stop wasting
> time on computers!
Sorry, Gang. That was meant for Rush, but I forgot to change the "to"
address.
--
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are very
different. -- Richard Feynman
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Isn't the difference was that the 100 volt prescaler you might possibly get a
decimal place in certain places on the voltage scale where with a 500 volt
prescaler you don't. Enought difference to matter? Probably not and having the
room to grow, or use it on a different vehicle, is probably worth more then the
miniscule detail you'd get.
Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello Paul,
There should be no problem. I am running a Link 10 0 to 499 volt prescaler
that has a built in DC-DC 12 volt isolator for a 180 volt battery pack. I
later plan to used a 240 volt pack that will have a 300 volt peak which is
the maximum I will have the controller.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "paul wiley"
To: "evdl"
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 10:24 PM
Subject: e-meter prescaler question
> Any reason not to buy the 500 volt prescaler instead of the 100 volt when
> i only have a 48 volt pack?
> Dad always said that you should plan for the future so i was
> thinkin....but then again i thought it might not be as accurate with the
> 500 volt version.
> Thoughts?
> thanks paul
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> What are the most popular cars? Find out at Yahoo! Autos
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Breaker size has little to do with AC or DC and everything to do with
interrupting capability. Breakers with similar interrupting ratings
are of similar size.
The reason the "usual" DC breaker is so much larger than the "usual"
AC breaker is because the DC system usually has batteries and/or
capacitors involved in the supply. AC circuits have engineered
features that limit fault current. That whimpy little breaker in your
home fuse box is only rated to interrupt 10k amps. That is nothing
compared to what a large standby battery can supply.
John
On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 20:35:10 +1100, James Massey
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>At 12:22 PM 22/02/06 -0800, Nick Austin wrote:
>>On Wed, Feb 22, 2006 at 01:58:49PM -0500, Christopher Zach wrote:
>> > The problem is this: AC breakers and fuses are designed to break AC
>> > loads. This is apparently not too hard as the voltage on an AC line
>> > swings to zero a certain number of times per second. Thus the arcs tend
>> > to self-extinguish.
>>
>>Is this why high power DC breakers are so huge and expensive?
>
>Hi Nick - and all
>
>Sure is, once you get into serious power switching, DC breakers (and
>contactors) seem to be around 5x to 10x their AC-only comparable rated
>cousins, and 4x to 5x bigger, with big arc chutes and all the rest of the
>business.
>
>Regards
>
>James
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes C and H Sales is what I mean.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Weathers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: Load testing EV components
>
> On Feb 22, 2006, at 10:34 AM, Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > I use 0.171 ohm resistors from CandHsurplus.com for my real high power
> > Banks. These cost $29 bucks each. Three in parallel make a really nice
> > 200
> > amp 12 volt load bank.
>
> That link didn't work for me. Google found me this:
>
> <http://www.aaaim.com/CandH/index.htm>
>
> Is that who you mean? They've got a lot of neat stuff.
>
> --
> Doug Weathers
> Bend, OR, USA
> <http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
>> Let's look at an AGM lead battery that might be used for a high
>> voltage AC drive vehicle; 288 volts at 60 amp hours (1 hour rate)
>> (~17 kWh). To charge from 20% SOC (a reasonable lower limit)...
Doug Weathers wrote:
> Eeek! I thought that 50% SoC was the lower limit you want to shoot
> for in AGMs. Going below that is supposed to permanently damage
> your AGMs.
It's not a cliff where life suddenly falls off the edge. Rather, the
deeper you discharge, the shorter your battery's life. 50% DOD is a good
number to aim for, because that's about where you get the most total
amphours out of the battery over its entire life (for lead-acid).
For example, a battery might have a life of 1000 cycles to 50% DOD, or
300 cycles to 80% DOD. If it's a 100ah battery, then you get
- 1000 cycles x 0.5 x 100ah = 50,000 amphours total over its life
- 300 cycles x 0.8 x 100ah = 24,000 amphours total over its life
So discharging it to 80% every cycle cuts your battery life in half,
i.e. makes your battery cost twice as much per mile.
Which do you want? Range or life?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Justin
I am picking Otmar here because his Rev limiter has a .250 second latency.
Where the OLD Raptor/Rexes had a PI loop and sub millisecond response times.
You would think Ot's stuff had a better Revlimiter that it does.
Even at that I have see my Z2k catch a couple busted belt Events on GP and
save the motors while doing it.
But if you are going to run 200 volt motor voltages and 2000 amps having a
darn fast and solid Rev limiter is manditory..
Or else you will be calling Jim Husted and having picture of your Commutator
in his hall of Flame list.
The Delta speed logic works and is a part of and PID control loop. A very
good idea indeed.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin Southam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: New pics up at the Hi-Torque site
> Hi Rich, and all, i have been giving some thought to rev limiters for my
> own project. As well as rpm i plan to monitor the rate of change. If (for
> example) the rpm changes from 1000 to 4000 in 1 second chances are its
> running unloaded, missed shift, broken chain etc, shutdown or open a
> contactor, why wait til it hits the rev limiter. After dragging out a
dusty
> old textbook i think i can differentiate the signal from the rpm sensor to
> measure the delta rpm and trigger when it exceeds the determined
threshold.
> Of course it could be done in software, and would have the limiter as
> secondary protection. Otmar, if your listening, have you considered this
> idea? Do you think it has merit?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Justin
>
> At 22:42 22-02-06 -0800, Rich wrote:
>
> >We need built up comms and Carbon tape restrained comms. Or Faster Rev
> >limiters.
> >
> >
> >Rich Rudman
> >Manzanita Micro.
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.0.0/267 - Release Date: 22-02-06
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Having exposed 3rd rail is safety hazard even if guarded - having live
> voltage along unattended track at ski resort is disallowed.
I've often wondered why they keep the 3rd rail "alive" even when there's
no train on it. Sure, it's easier that way. But with modern technology,
can't they add contactors that only power the section of the 3rd rail
when a train is actually on it? That way, no one could be electrocuted
unless they were also in the process of being run over by the train!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Exactly right! THAT's the source of confusion, not our
> understanding. If they would tell you what discharge time length
> their "C" definition refers to, all be clear, but they don't bother.
Right; this is the heart of the problem. "C" rate specifications (0.1C,
10C, etc.) are only rough approximations; they ignore Peukert effects,
and assume the battery capacity is unaffected by the charge/discharge
current.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Re Lee Hart
So for EV development we need batteries that can be discarged to 20 or 30%
DOD without significantly reducing their life. Have I got the right end of
the stick ?
alan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
> David Roden wrote:
> >> Let's look at an AGM lead battery that might be used for a high
> >> voltage AC drive vehicle; 288 volts at 60 amp hours (1 hour rate)
> >> (~17 kWh). To charge from 20Rich
>
> Am I missing the point here.
>
> My understanding is that at best an EV can do 50 to 70 miles before
> recharging. These modern EV's are great for in town, but people are scared
> of running out of power on long journeys or having to wait hours for a
> recharge.
>
> Now if your chargers can charge the vehicles to 80 % within 7 minutes,
> that means they can go an extra 40 to 50 miles untill they stop for
dinner.
> I believe you have a winner certainly for a small country like England. We
> would just need to install your charger in enouth garages/outlets for a
> quick recharge. Say a few thousand chargers would probably cover half the
> country.
>
> Is this how it works ? or do we still need development on the battery
> front.?
>
> In England I dont see a problem with pulling enough power off the grid.
> There are 3 phase high voltage supplies in most areas.
>
>
> Alan
SOC (a reasonable lower limit)...
>
> Doug Weathers wrote:
> > Eeek! I thought that 50% SoC was the lower limit you want to shoot
> > for in AGMs. Going below that is supposed to permanently damage
> > your AGMs.
>
> It's not a cliff where life suddenly falls off the edge. Rather, the
> deeper you discharge, the shorter your battery's life. 50% DOD is a good
> number to aim for, because that's about where you get the most total
> amphours out of the battery over its entire life (for lead-acid).
>
> For example, a battery might have a life of 1000 cycles to 50% DOD, or
> 300 cycles to 80% DOD. If it's a 100ah battery, then you get
>
> - 1000 cycles x 0.5 x 100ah = 50,000 amphours total over its life
> - 300 cycles x 0.8 x 100ah = 24,000 amphours total over its life
>
> So discharging it to 80% every cycle cuts your battery life in half,
> i.e. makes your battery cost twice as much per mile.
>
> Which do you want? Range or life?
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
> David
> >
> > Am I missing the point here ?
> >
> > My understanding is that at best an EV can do 50 to 70 miles before
> > recharging. These modern EV's are great for in town, but people are
scared
> > of running out of power on long journeys or having to wait hours for a
> > recharge.
> >
> > Now if these chargers can charge the vehicles to 80 % within 7
minutes,
> > that means that after a quick charge they can go an extra 40 to 50 miles
> untill they stop for dinner.
> > I believe this is a winner certainly for a small country like England.
We
> > would just need to install chargers in enouth garages/outlets for a
> > quick recharge. Say a few thousand chargers would probably cover half
the
> > country.
> >
> > Is this how it works ? or do we still need development on the battery
> > front.?
> >
> > In England I dont see a problem with pulling enough power off the grid.
> > There are 3 phase high voltage supplies in most areas over here.
> >
> >
> > Alan
>
> Hi Alan an ' EVerybody;
You make good points, but as I have said all along; it's a Chicken and
Egg thing. WHICH will come(came) first? The EV's OR the Support
syatem??All the home made EV's could be the Only car IF you could be
reasured that a friendly wall out let were available. I plugged my way
around a few summers ago, rolled up 101 miles total when I got home because
every place I stopped off I was able to swipe power, Motel, Restaurant, that
kinda stuff. Had they 240 range plugs and I my PFC-20 aboard, I coulda
plugged along ALL day, probably, like if I were doing a trans-con,As long as
I wanted to keep going?Been there done that 34 years ago in the Great
Transcontental Clean Air Car Race. But back then we had power Co's set us up
with 240 volts in lavish(250)amps as needed, EVery 50 miles or so. Out in
the flatlands we would try to ship a station and crawl into the next
one.Warm deserts helped MILES of flat 50 amp country!
Think of it THIS way; You had to build your own ICE. THEN find gas
supplies along the road, but we have it easy. Electricity is VERY common in
lavish amounts EVERYwhere you want to be. Both in USA UK Canada, maybe EVen
Iraq? Like simple tax incentives to Biz to make it worth his time for, say ,
Tom, at True Value Hardware, to put a 120/240 plug array in front of his
store. Real Place, Real Names, he has said " Help Yourself" to HIS 120
outside. Never had anybody ELSE use it for EV's though.
This would be a point I would make if I were Prez, and were doing a
Firesign Chat, along with Dump Charge Stations, all the amps you can STAND
along the Freeways. This will be done in the next few months as soon as we
can let the contracts!Don't ya think there would be a hellova lot ,more
interest and cars comverted if ya had the above?? You Bet! We would need two
or more Lists, Warfield would hafta run 24/7 to make enough motors. Oatmar
would hafta hire an Army of Zilla builders,Rudman, too ,at Manzanita
Micro.He would have people beating down the doors for the small 150KW units,
the DO fit in Ford trux<g>!!? Trojan, US Battery, Optima, those guys would
be going crazy, and all those "coming soon" batteries we dream about would
be reality damn quick!To start with the charge stations nationwide, might
cost as much as a few fighter plaines and a chopper , gunship,or two<g>! I
didn't mention a Nuke Sub, OOPs I just did! Fraudian slip!They want to keep
building them here in CT to keep people working. Always sed that Electric
Boat could build RR passenger cars. After all they started out building
Electric Boats, battery powered, like submarines. They could build battery
rail cars that wouldn't leak in the rain??.A few hundred subway cars, a
year, to cover normal attrition for NY, Philly Boston, DC.Chicago, all those
enchanting places that HAVE rail right, now.As the Appolo Alliance folks
hint at at their wedsite, plenty of work here if we were to go for it.
Back from Fantesyland.
Seeya
Bob
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check out this pic of a graph of Optima's cycle life....
http://www.commutercars.com/downloads/batteryCharging/YTCycleLifejpg
The way I read it is 30% DoD produces the max amount of use.
Stay Charged!
Hump
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: Battery powered Trains, and hybrids
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > Having exposed 3rd rail is safety hazard even if guarded - having live
> > voltage along unattended track at ski resort is disallowed.
>
Hi All;
Third rails have been going on for 100 plus YEARS! People who grow up
around then treat them with respect. Like allagaters in FLA ,Lions in
Africa, but third rails are more predictable than those critters and most
people!
> I've often wondered why they keep the 3rd rail "alive" even when there's
> no train on it. Sure, it's easier that way. But with modern technology,
> can't they add contactors that only power the section of the 3rd rail
> when a train is actually on it? That way, no one could be electrocuted
> unless they were also in the process of being run over by the train!
> --
Yeah, gotta point.But costs money!$$ A variation of this was tried WAY
back in trolley car history. The contact system, with metal buttonlike
contacts placed every few feet along the street. When a car was running a
powerful magnet pulled the contact on below the street directly, in theory ,
safely under the car. It worked after a fashion, but the magnets reaped a
fine harvest of used horseshoes, nails and other foreign objects along the
way! Snow and ice doomed this interesting experiment in current collection.
Seems like it was easier to string up wire ABOVE the car, out of reach, and
use a trolley pole, or pantograph, or some other creative current collection
device. Surprisingly simple, using the rails for the return circuit. That's
been going on ever since ......worldwide.
Seeya
Bob
" Clang Clang-Watch You're Step!"
Clang Clang"
" That's the Trolley Car Swing"
1912 lines to pop song Trolley Car Swing, Columbia record . Out of
print, don't ask for it a Wal*Mart!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry folks, the DOT somehow got removed from the link.
Original Message -----------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tim Humphrey
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 1:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
Check out this pic of a graph of Optima's cycle life....
http://www.commutercars.com/downloads/batteryCharging/YTCycleLifejpg
The way I read it is 30% DoD produces the max amount of use.
Stay Charged!
Hump
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:58 PM 2/22/2006, you wrote:
Hi all,
I have some questions about my motor mount on my S-10
1) how far away from the firewall should the bellhousing be?
2) I've had to make a new mount and would like some feedback, at
http://www.ironandwood.org/s10motormount.htm there are some pictures
and descriptions which will help you to understand my dilemma.
How have others that have S10's and 9" ADC's mounted their motors?
The problem is that there is a big cross member that sits about 3/4"
below the motor and I can't use the original mounts, so I have
gotten new ones and am starting to fabricate a new mount. Before I
get too far along I'd like some feed back, so if you could go to the
site and look at the pics, I'd appreciate it.
This is why I recommend (in my book, "Convert It") to measure the
position of the transmission bell housing against some fixed point on
the firewall BEFORE removing the engine, so you know where you have
to put it back to when you design your motor mount.
If the 3/4" clearance that is troubling you in the photo is the space
between the back of the top right bolt and the firewall, that's
fine. On most factory (gas) cars, you can barely fit a finger
through that space. If you still think you haven't got enough
clearance, the subtle application of a ballpeen hammer to the metal
on the firewall should give you any amount of clearance you like.
Mike Brown
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2/23/06, STEVE CLUNN <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> And gas is how much ??? per gallon now , why aren't there Ev's all over
> England, ?
Top Gear ;)
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"The Bonn charger (designed by Don Bonn) is a bad-boy charger with a few
manners. The key addition is a big series inductor, in series with the
input to the bridge rectifier. The inductor filters and limits the peak
current, so it won't burn up cords. The inductor also improves the power
factor, so you get more charging current out of a given AC outlet. It
also has a GFCI for safety, an ammeter so you know what you're doing,
and a timer to automatically shut it off. This may be what you want. I
can publish the circuit if you need it."
---So now you've got us on the edges of our seats.....
How big of an inductor? And didn't you also have a capacitor across the AC
on your bad boy Bonn? How big was that? I've already got the GFCI, ammeter
& timer, but I'm worried about the power factor and current control.
As I see it the big 4 items in EV conversions are motor, controller, batteries
& charger. (The other big 4 are adapters, wiring, ancillary equipment power
and
climate control :-) ) Those of us on a budget have to choose where to cheap
out, and
if the system voltage works for a bad boy the temptation to economize there
(at least at first) is hard to resist.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
I dare to disagree with the notion that most (not all)
manufacturers specify over how many hours the capacity
was measured, so it _is_ specified exactly for those.
The fact that it is not very real-life for an EV due to
at least an order of magnitude too low currents and
resulting reduction of real-life capacity is another matter.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 9:56 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: C?
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Exactly right! THAT's the source of confusion, not our
> understanding. If they would tell you what discharge time length
> their "C" definition refers to, all be clear, but they don't bother.
Right; this is the heart of the problem. "C" rate specifications (0.1C,
10C, etc.) are only rough approximations; they ignore Peukert effects,
and assume the battery capacity is unaffected by the charge/discharge
current.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Justin Southam wrote:
> Hi Rich, and all, i have been giving some thought to rev limiters for
> my own project. As well as rpm i plan to monitor the rate of change.
> If (for example) the rpm changes from 1000 to 4000 in 1 second,
> chances are it is running unloaded... why wait til it hits the rev
> limiter? ... Otmar, if your listening, have you considered this
> idea? Do you think it has merit?
There are lots of things one can do to make a safer system. The
controller is the obvious place to put this intelligence, as it knows
the input voltage and current to the motor, and the rpm out. If the
power in doesn't result in the "right" rpm out, and the rpm isn't
changing at the "right" rate, something is wrong!
Temperature is another missing factor. The motor should have a
temperature sensor; it might as well be fed to the controller, so it can
cut back power as the motor temperature rises.
Of course, as you move in this direction, the controller gets more
expensive, and more complicated to program and configure. In fact, this
is a lot of what happens in an AC motor controller, and part of why they
cost more, require more custom programming, and are so tightly married
to the motor!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench wrote:
> There should be no problem. I am running a Link 10 0 to 499 volt
> prescaler that has a built in DC-DC 12 volt isolator...
The Link 10 itself, and its prescaler DO NOT have built-in isolation! I
hope what you meant to say is that you *ADDED* a DC/DC 12v isolator
yourself, but somehow "built it into" whatever box you packaged the Link
10 and its prescaler in.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
Thanks for the ballpreen suggestion, I had actually already thought about it
<G>.
I could not measure the orig distance cause this was already a converted S-10.
Done by US Electric Car for ASP up in Phoenix, wasn't working properly, they
let it sit for years, all the AC stuff was stripped out, they sold it, the guy
who bought it started to reconvert it to DC, he got motor, adapter plate, motor
mount and other stuff, didn't finish it and I got if for a good price.
So now I am picking up the pieces and putting them together.
Thanks for the input, when I start from zero on my next conversion, I'll know a
little more...
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Electro Automotive" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: S10 Motor Mount questions
> At 10:58 PM 2/22/2006, you wrote:
>>Hi all,
>>
>>I have some questions about my motor mount on my S-10
>>
>>1) how far away from the firewall should the bellhousing be?
>>
>>2) I've had to make a new mount and would like some feedback, at
>>http://www.ironandwood.org/s10motormount.htm there are some pictures
>>and descriptions which will help you to understand my dilemma.
>>
>>How have others that have S10's and 9" ADC's mounted their motors?
>>The problem is that there is a big cross member that sits about 3/4"
>>below the motor and I can't use the original mounts, so I have
>>gotten new ones and am starting to fabricate a new mount. Before I
>>get too far along I'd like some feed back, so if you could go to the
>>site and look at the pics, I'd appreciate it.
>
> This is why I recommend (in my book, "Convert It") to measure the
> position of the transmission bell housing against some fixed point on
> the firewall BEFORE removing the engine, so you know where you have
> to put it back to when you design your motor mount.
>
> If the 3/4" clearance that is troubling you in the photo is the space
> between the back of the top right bolt and the firewall, that's
> fine. On most factory (gas) cars, you can barely fit a finger
> through that space. If you still think you haven't got enough
> clearance, the subtle application of a ballpeen hammer to the metal
> on the firewall should give you any amount of clearance you like.
>
> Mike Brown
>
> Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
> http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[N.B: I hope I did my math right! I cross checked these numbers quite a
bit, but I may have brain-farted somewhere]
Simply put: Batteries, as they exist today do not store enough energy
for the weight / space they consume.
One gallon (3.79l) of gasoline weighs 6.09 pounds (2.76Kg) (spec grav: .69)
Gasoline has 22,000,000 Joules per pound, or about 35Kwh per gallon.
A gallon of gasoline has a energy density (by weight, or specific
energy) of 12.68 (35Kwh / 2.61Kg).
A gallon of gasoline has a volumetric energy density of 9.23 (35Kwh / 3.79l)
An Orbital 34XCD (for example) has 50Amp-hours and weighs 41 pounds (18.6Kg)
Ignoring various factors (C, Peukerts) and assuming you can pull 50 amps
for 1 hour at 12 volts, That's 0.6 Kwh
This battery has a energy density of 0.032 (.6Kwh / 18.6Kg)
This battery has a volume of 2.502 gallons / 9.47 liters
It's energy density (volume) is 0.063 (.6Kwh / 9.47)
By weight, gasoline has 396 times as much energy as the lead-acid
battery in our example. This ignores the fact that the gas tank gets
lighter as you burn the fuel, whereas batteries do not.
By volume, gasoline has 146 times as much energy.
Gasoline as an energy storage medium is vastly superior to batteries.
Internal combustions vehicles can't really go that far because they're
ridiculously inefficient at converting this energy to apply to the
wheels when compared to an electric system.
If you made a battery that was as good as gasoline at storing energy
(especially weight-wise), people would only have to recharge their
electric car every few _months_, though you'd probably do it every night
because charging (Using 10 gallons of gas as a yard stick) 350Kwh
overnight seems ... impractical:
43.75 Kwh per hour, for 8 hours would be 182 amps at 240V, ignoring losses
Alan wrote:
Re Lee Hart
So for EV development we need batteries that can be discarged to 20 or 30%
DOD without significantly reducing their life. Have I got the right end of
the stick ?
alan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
David Roden wrote:
Let's look at an AGM lead battery that might be used for a high
voltage AC drive vehicle; 288 volts at 60 amp hours (1 hour rate)
(~17 kWh). To charge from 20Rich
Am I missing the point here.
My understanding is that at best an EV can do 50 to 70 miles before
recharging. These modern EV's are great for in town, but people are scared
of running out of power on long journeys or having to wait hours for a
recharge.
Now if your chargers can charge the vehicles to 80 % within 7 minutes,
that means they can go an extra 40 to 50 miles untill they stop for
dinner.
I believe you have a winner certainly for a small country like England. We
would just need to install your charger in enouth garages/outlets for a
quick recharge. Say a few thousand chargers would probably cover half the
country.
Is this how it works ? or do we still need development on the battery
front.?
In England I dont see a problem with pulling enough power off the grid.
There are 3 phase high voltage supplies in most areas.
Alan
SOC (a reasonable lower limit)...
Doug Weathers wrote:
Eeek! I thought that 50% SoC was the lower limit you want to shoot
for in AGMs. Going below that is supposed to permanently damage
your AGMs.
It's not a cliff where life suddenly falls off the edge. Rather, the
deeper you discharge, the shorter your battery's life. 50% DOD is a good
number to aim for, because that's about where you get the most total
amphours out of the battery over its entire life (for lead-acid).
For example, a battery might have a life of 1000 cycles to 50% DOD, or
300 cycles to 80% DOD. If it's a 100ah battery, then you get
- 1000 cycles x 0.5 x 100ah = 50,000 amphours total over its life
- 300 cycles x 0.8 x 100ah = 24,000 amphours total over its life
So discharging it to 80% every cycle cuts your battery life in half,
i.e. makes your battery cost twice as much per mile.
Which do you want? Range or life?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
So discharging it to 80% every cycle cuts your battery life in half,
i.e. makes your battery cost twice as much per mile.
Which do you want? Range or life?
It's not fair to ask this Lee :-)
Of course everyone wants range AND life AND cheap AND now... you know.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Poulsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 3:11 PM
Subject: It's the energy density problem (was: Battery charging in only 5
minutes)
> [N.B: I hope I did my math right! I cross checked these numbers quite a
> bit, but I may have brain-farted somewhere]
>
> Simply put: Batteries, as they exist today do not store enough energy
> for the weight / space they consume.
>
Hi EVerybody;
Sigh! He's right! Looking atr the discouraging figures, it is food for
thought. Had I kept my Rabbit as a Diseasel, probably would have saved a
pile of money, as well as TONS of murdered batteries. But justify it in that
I'm trying to make a statement as that EV's CAN work, and with better
engineering than I can give them, be successful at filling a nitch thing in
USA, like 3rd car status? As wonderful energy density of gas, you can't
reasonably make lavish amounts at home. A lot easier to just swing by the
gas station and charge a tank.With yur AAA card ya get a rebate, though.
It wouldn't be so bad if batteries wern't so Prima Donna in aditude. Or
too easy to kill, a gas car you just tow it to a gas station and filitup
again, go on you merry way, dignity intact.You didn't fry the valves ,or
something, running it down so it won't move anymore. You have just killig
them softly with batteri. We all hope and prey for batteries that can match
the gas for watt hours per pound.. Then we will reap the full bennies of
EV's
Seeya
Bob
> One gallon (3.79l) of gasoline weighs 6.09 pounds (2.76Kg) (spec grav:
.69)
> Gasoline has 22,000,000 Joules per pound, or about 35Kwh per gallon.
> A gallon of gasoline has a energy density (by weight, or specific
> energy) of 12.68 (35Kwh / 2.61Kg).
> A gallon of gasoline has a volumetric energy density of 9.23 (35Kwh /
3.79l)
>
> An Orbital 34XCD (for example) has 50Amp-hours and weighs 41 pounds
(18.6Kg)
> Ignoring various factors (C, Peukerts) and assuming you can pull 50 amps
> for 1 hour at 12 volts, That's 0.6 Kwh
> This battery has a energy density of 0.032 (.6Kwh / 18.6Kg)
> This battery has a volume of 2.502 gallons / 9.47 liters
> It's energy density (volume) is 0.063 (.6Kwh / 9.47)
>
> By weight, gasoline has 396 times as much energy as the lead-acid
> battery in our example. This ignores the fact that the gas tank gets
> lighter as you burn the fuel, whereas batteries do not.
> By volume, gasoline has 146 times as much energy.
>
> Gasoline as an energy storage medium is vastly superior to batteries.
> Internal combustions vehicles can't really go that far because they're
> ridiculously inefficient at converting this energy to apply to the
> wheels when compared to an electric system.
>
> If you made a battery that was as good as gasoline at storing energy
> (especially weight-wise), people would only have to recharge their
> electric car every few _months_, though you'd probably do it every night
> because charging (Using 10 gallons of gas as a yard stick) 350Kwh
> overnight seems ... impractical:
>
> 43.75 Kwh per hour, for 8 hours would be 182 amps at 240V, ignoring losses
>
> I could do that but the Electric Bill would look like the national Debt!
>
> Alan wrote:
> > Re Lee Hart
> >
> > So for EV development we need batteries that can be discarged to 20 or
30%
> > DOD without significantly reducing their life. Have I got the right end
of
> > the stick ?
> >
> > alan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 5:38 PM
> > Subject: Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes
> >
> >
> >
> >> David Roden wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Let's look at an AGM lead battery that might be used for a high
> >>>> voltage AC drive vehicle; 288 volts at 60 amp hours (1 hour rate)
> >>>> (~17 kWh). To charge from 20Rich
> >>>>
> >> Am I missing the point here.
> >>
> >> My understanding is that at best an EV can do 50 to 70 miles before
> >> recharging. These modern EV's are great for in town, but people are
scared
> >> of running out of power on long journeys or having to wait hours for a
> >> recharge.
> >>
> >> Now if your chargers can charge the vehicles to 80 % within 7
minutes,
> >> that means they can go an extra 40 to 50 miles untill they stop for
> >>
> > dinner.
> >
> >> I believe you have a winner certainly for a small country like England.
We
> >> would just need to install your charger in enouth garages/outlets for a
> >> quick recharge. Say a few thousand chargers would probably cover half
the
> >> country.
> >>
> >> Is this how it works ? or do we still need development on the battery
> >> front.?
> >>
> >> In England I dont see a problem with pulling enough power off the grid.
> >> There are 3 phase high voltage supplies in most areas.
> >>
> >>
> >> Alan
> >>
> > SOC (a reasonable lower limit)...
> >
> >> Doug Weathers wrote:
> >>
> >>> Eeek! I thought that 50% SoC was the lower limit you want to shoot
> >>> for in AGMs. Going below that is supposed to permanently damage
> >>> your AGMs.
> >>>
> >> It's not a cliff where life suddenly falls off the edge. Rather, the
> >> deeper you discharge, the shorter your battery's life. 50% DOD is a
good
> >> number to aim for, because that's about where you get the most total
> >> amphours out of the battery over its entire life (for lead-acid).
> >>
> >> For example, a battery might have a life of 1000 cycles to 50% DOD, or
> >> 300 cycles to 80% DOD. If it's a 100ah battery, then you get
> >>
> >> - 1000 cycles x 0.5 x 100ah = 50,000 amphours total over its life
> >> - 300 cycles x 0.8 x 100ah = 24,000 amphours total over its life
> >>
> >> So discharging it to 80% every cycle cuts your battery life in half,
> >> i.e. makes your battery cost twice as much per mile.
> >>
> >> Which do you want? Range or life?
> >> --
> >> Ring the bells that still can ring
> >> Forget the perfect offering
> >> There is a crack in everything
> >> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> >> --
> >> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This could technically be done but consider that without power
along the track, permanently or in sections there is only
tube web mechanical structure - very inexpensive and no-fail
reliable (compared to buried cables, feeds etc; not to mention
all associated regulations etc). No contactors, no electrical
parts at all period. So in fact this may be easier.
Portable shop light with extension cord is sure simple but
requires approved cord now. So sometimes we chose battery operated
flash light - no need to think where do we put this cord, how to
prevent its cuts, kinks, etc.
But the main reason I think is that the cabin must be able to
operate without any mains power in case of outage. Battery EV
is obvious solution - no stinkin' generators are allowed in
such places. No way the cabin can get stuck in the middle of the
track. There are 6 of them at the time ans if the car itself fails,
another one can give it a push.
I'm sure they weighted their choices before starting the project.
I'm not allowed to tell more details about the project, but
I uploaded few photos to give you an idea of what it technically
look like (as of Spring of 2003).
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/coaster/
Victor
Lee Hart wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Having exposed 3rd rail is safety hazard even if guarded - having live
voltage along unattended track at ski resort is disallowed.
I've often wondered why they keep the 3rd rail "alive" even when there's
no train on it. Sure, it's easier that way. But with modern technology,
can't they add contactors that only power the section of the 3rd rail
when a train is actually on it? That way, no one could be electrocuted
unless they were also in the process of being run over by the train!
--- End Message ---
