EV Digest 5214
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Different Ah Strings
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Charcoal fuel cell
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Charcoal fuel cell
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: It's the energy density problem
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Information wanted - Jet Controller
by Matt Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Charcoal fuel cell
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Need Idiot's Guidance to PFC20 & Wet Cell Batteries
by "Brian M. Sutin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Different Ah Strings
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Avcon and Ford Ranger
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: E-Meter confusion
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Brusa NLG 412B
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: (probably dumb) rapid charge idea.
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: David Roden - which resistor is it that burns out in the PMC
controllers?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Any Myford lathe owners help me out (not really EV)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: Small Bad Dumb Charger
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: V2G, vehicle to grid - fantastic concept
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: V2G, vehicle to grid - fantastic concept
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Link 10 adapter for 450V on Ebay
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Emeter voltage prescaler - howto
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Small Bad Dumb Charger
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: V2G, vehicle to grid - fantastic concept
by Brian Cole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: V2G, vehicle to grid - fantastic concept
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Are the batteries the same chemistry?
If they are identical except for amp*hours, I'd think you'd want to
draw at the same C rate from both.
If one has a bad peukert number, the other a good one, you might want
the good peukert battery to do the high currents and the other a
steadier, slower draw.
If one can go flat more safely than the other, you might want to draw
a bit harder on the more robust battery.
Final random thought: Caveat, check with the charger manufacturer
first. Use your charger to steadily charge string B from string A.
Time it for the length of time for your trip, so a one hour trip
would be at rate 1C (or 0.8C or less to be safe).
--- Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hypothetical question here:
>
> Suppose you have batteries of the same chemistry, but with
> different Ah
> ratings. You have more of the ones with the smaller Ah rating.
> The Ah
> ratings are not integer multiples of each other, so it would be
> hard to mix
> and match (i.e., parallel individual cells), leaving you with two
> parallel
> strings. You want to maximize range and use all the cells for a
> long trip.
> The cells of the smaller Ah string, being less than half the Ah
> rating of
> the larger ones, can't supply enough amps to run the vehicle at
> road speed
> by themselves. The larger ones can supply enough amps by
> themselves if
> necessary.
>
> What would be a good way to hook up the two strings?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's a nice one- charcoal fuel cell. Neato!
http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060226/NEWS11/602260346/1001
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where does the "renewable" charcoal come from? More trees? And then what
about the all the emissions from making the charcoal? How much energy does
it take to make charcoal? How much of this energy can the "fuel cell"
produce?
Here is a phrase that requires some careful thought:
"While fossil-fuel cells also produce carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas,
charcoal represents a sustainable source of fuel, since the living plants
that produce the charcoal get their carbon by removing carbon dioxide from
the atmosphere."
So this technology still produces carbon dioxide. It requires trees. The
emissions required to create the charcoal are undesirable.
... not impressed.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: February 26, 2006 6:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Charcoal fuel cell
Here's a nice one- charcoal fuel cell. Neato!
http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060226/NEWS11
/602260346/1001
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 23 Feb 2006 at 12:11, Eric Poulsen wrote:
> Gasoline as an energy storage medium is vastly superior to batteries.
It may be a silly point, but I'd still disagree with this statement. I
don't think that gasoline should be called an energy storage medium, since
it's not currently practical to store energy in gasoline. Rather, it is a
fuel - an energy ^source^ - and a finite one at that.
A battery is superior to gasoline for ^storing^ energy, but unless it's a
primary cell it's not an energy ^source^.
I realize the practical implications of this - heck, anybody who's been an
EVer for any length of time realizes that his half-ton battery pack holds
about as much energy as a half gallon of gasoline. But technically speaking
it's still more appropriate to compare a battery with hydrogen, which is
also an energy storage medium, not a fuel.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 07:47:48 -0800 (PST), you wrote:
>Matt,
>The original manual has 5 pages describing the controller but no
>schematic. Do you have a copy of these pages?
>Jimmy
>
Yes. Alas, no schematic.
Matt Milliron [EMAIL PROTECTED]
1981 Jet Electrica, Ford Escort
My daughter named it, "Pikachu".
It's yellow and black, electric and
contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe his premise is mostly valid. All the carbon required to make
the fuel comes from CO2, turning it back into CO2 is no net change. The
same cannot be said from fossil fuels, which contain carbon sequestered
from a previous era so there's much more carbon around. Even an EV is
usually powered by electricity primarily generated from natural gas or
coal. Or you might be able to produce energy from the carbon of coal in
a more efficient way with this fuel cell, and perhaps able to retain the
problematic sulfur and mercury compounds as sludge in the cell rather
than letting out a smokestack.
The point would be that it could be a type of renewable fuel cell, and
there's not the complication of relying on another form of power to fuel
it like a hydrogen fuel cell. Of course storing and refilling charcoal
powder is far simpler than storing hydrogen, which would make it really
handy.
But, of course any extrapolations of its usefulness are premature. No
info on power density, efficiency, long term reliability, or general
practicality for any application much less EV duty. But that's not
surprising in any way, they're just reporting on an emerging tech
development claim and it would be premature BS to make specific claims.
Danny
Don Cameron wrote:
Where does the "renewable" charcoal come from? More trees? And then what
about the all the emissions from making the charcoal? How much energy does
it take to make charcoal? How much of this energy can the "fuel cell"
produce?
Here is a phrase that requires some careful thought:
"While fossil-fuel cells also produce carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas,
charcoal represents a sustainable source of fuel, since the living plants
that produce the charcoal get their carbon by removing carbon dioxide from
the atmosphere."
So this technology still produces carbon dioxide. It requires trees. The
emissions required to create the charcoal are undesirable.
... not impressed.
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a string of 10 Trojan 12V 27TMH wet cell batteries on the end of a
PFC20 charger. I originally tried to follow the directions in the PFC20
manual for setting up the charger, which didn't work in a big way. A call
to Manzanita Micro revealed that the instructions are only for AGM batts.
Nice if they had said so, but no damage done.
Right now I have the charger set to the brand-new pack acceptance voltage
of 148V, and have the charger time out after 2 hours. It never reaches
voltage limit, perhaps because the batteries are very old. I opportunity
charge about four times a day, and I have to add a 1/2 cup of water about
once a week to keep to plates under water.
So how do I set up this charger correctly?
Brian
http://www.skewray.com/alfa/
--
Brian M. Sutin, Ph.D. Astronomical Optical Engineering and Software
Skewray Research/316 W Green St/Claremont CA 91711 USA/(909) 621-3122
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
9:35 P.M.
Bill,
Assuming Thunder Sky lithium ion is the hypothetical cell type for your
hypothetical question:
Use the string of larger ones (e.g. 30 of 200 Ahr.) as your main pack.
Connect the smaller ones all in series to make a second string of higher
voltage. Connect the second string to the first with a contactor and a
buck regulator that has been designed, built and adjusted for both current
limit and voltage setting on the output. The output voltage setting should
be around 3.8V times the number of cells of your no. 1 larger cells pack.
The current limit should be set to a value that results in current drain
from your smaller cells that they are comfortable delivering, such as 30A
for 90 Ahr. cells. If you have, for example, a little over twice as many
small cells as larger ones, then the output current of the buck regulator
would be about twice the current going in, as it steps down the voltage to
less than half. This would be about 60A of assistance from the small cells
pack, in this example, as they are drained at a rate of about 30A. During
coasting and stops, they will transfer a little energy to the larger pack.
The usual cell monitor circuits, such as the Stybrook ones, connected with a
control circuit so as to disconnect the small cells pack when the the first
cell reaches a low state, is mandatory, as usual. Then the bigger cells,
not so depleted, would be on there own for the last part of a long trip.
But if you know the distance and conditions of travel, you could adjust the
current limit so that both packe are about the same percent depleted at the
end of the trip.
The next question is likely to be where to find such a well behaved and
controllable buck animal.........
HTH
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 7:36 PM
Subject: Different Ah Strings
Hypothetical question here:
Suppose you have batteries of the same chemistry, but with different Ah
ratings. You have more of the ones with the smaller Ah rating. The Ah
ratings are not integer multiples of each other, so it would be hard to
mix
and match (i.e., parallel individual cells), leaving you with two parallel
strings. You want to maximize range and use all the cells for a long
trip.
The cells of the smaller Ah string, being less than half the Ah rating of
the larger ones, can't supply enough amps to run the vehicle at road speed
by themselves. The larger ones can supply enough amps by themselves if
necessary.
What would be a good way to hook up the two strings?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Most Avcons them selves plug into 240 VAC with a 14-50 plug. Just get a
Avcon Power pack that has a 14-50 plug on it.. and then plug your the Avcon
"stinger" into your Ranger.
The Avcon is just a really expensive extantion cord. The actual charger is
on your Ranger and it only needs to see 220-240 VAC on it's input to run.
I have a Avcon Dual stinger, it runs into a "Socket" and then hot wires into
one of my PFC30 chargers. Works fine.
I just did a Avcon to PFC30 "Cheater Cord" for Caltech a couple of weeks
ago.
Hello ron Fruend... We need a Avcon port for this Fellow.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 9:37 PM
Subject: Avcon and Ford Ranger
> Hi All,
>
> I got this email below off list, but I know there are many people
> here to better qualify to answer this one than me.
> If you choose to answer, please direct it to
>
> TheLefeverFamily_at_aol.com
>
> Thanks,
>
> Victor
>
> ------------------------------
>
> We have a 2000 Ford Ranger Electric Vehicle. This is a pure electric
> vehicle not a hybrid and needs to be on a charger constantly when not
> being driven. We are going to start living, full time, in our motor
> home which then puts us into a dilemma because the current AVCON charger
> needs a dryer outlet to be plugged into. Our motor home runs, usually,
> off of 50 amp service at a campground and of course has standard
> household current in the home. Is there any option for me to use either
> the campground 50amp outlet in conjunction with my motor home plug in or
> is there any option to use an outlet in the motor home although they are
> all standard house current outlets? Also, would there be a way to
> install an new outlet in the motor home to provide the power needed to
> charge the Ranger?
>
> Here's some of the Ford Ranger EV specifications if it helps although
> I'm not an electrician and not comfortable around electricity:
> On-Board Charger - Onboard 220V AC
> AVCON Charger - requires 220VAC
> Ranger Battery pack voltage - 312 volts (39X8V)
>
> We don't driver our Ranger all the time, but the Ranger Owner's manual
> states to have it plugged in anytime it is not being driven. We don't
> want to sell our Ranger just because we are going to live in it
> full-time, but we need to find some way of charging the batteries
> without access to a dryer or range outlet.
>
> I hope this makes sense and I hope you might have an idea or let me know
> if one of your products would work.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kevin Lefever
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Simple Michaela
use the Kilowatt hour display in the E-meter. It's function F03, Turn it on.
Now you have a real count of the watts used to move y our EV, not some
smoothed, ready for the Sailor number that the Amphour number really is.
Us Pureist use the Kw display only. We get real numbers... not smoothed
and padded data.
Really Want Data??? Hook up the Rs-232 Cable,a nd data log the entire
data stream from the E-Meter. That will tell you exactly what is going on.
Oh real power is Amps times the actual volts that were present when those
amps were drawn. That's what Kilowatts are.
Yes you were missing something...
The real point in having a Real meter.
Real Data
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 4:04 PM
Subject: E-Meter confusion
>
> Hello Everybody:
>
> I finally got my E-Meter installed and it works fine. What confuses me
> though are the different readings for State Of Charge, AmpHours and
> available time. Since I have to enter the Peukert value, I would assume
> that some of those values reflect a 'Peukert' corrected value, but which?
>
> My batteries were fully charged when I left for work today. Shortly before
> I reached the parking place, my E-Meter showed:
>
> Ah consumed: 45
> 3 Bars (of 4) illuminated (60-79%) SOC
> Time available: 0.5 hrs
>
> >From that, I would say that the value for Ah is *not* Peukert corrected
> while the SOC bars and the available time are.
>
> I find that kind of weird as IMHO the most important figure would be how
> much of REAL amps did I consume, meaning that the Ah counter should show a
> Peukert corrected value. After all, I know that I have 220 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> And it
> would be nice if, after my drive, the E-Meter would show i.e. 89 Ah. That
> would tell me exactly how much Ahs I burned and what ist still available.
>
> Maybe I am missing something?
>
> Michaela
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 24 Feb 2006 at 11:06, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> But should you decide
> to change the battery chemistry in future, SAFT version of charger
> will be only useful for re-sale.
This may be true with the NLG5 chargers. It may also be true for some of
the
NLG4 chargers.
The NLG412B chargers I have were manufactured for use in the prototype Pivco
Citibees, so they may be a special case. However, for these chargers, a
subset of the general purpose program remains in the EEPROM. This gives
them some flexibility.
The Saft algorithm they have is specific to the STM batteries, and in the
default factory configuration only supports a 120 volt pack. This algorithm
will probably not be usable for other nicads. It also requires some custom
external hardware to drive the charger's internal pilot (amp-hour) counter.
As I mentioned there are some specifics of this charger that a person
considering it should know about. It's rather detailed and I'm sorry but I
don't want to type it all in unless somebody *really* needs to know about
it. Lawrence, if you are serious, email me privately (see the sig below for
contact details).
I emphasize again that what I know about these chargers applies to the ones
built for Pivco, and may or may not apply to other Saft-standard NLG412
chargers manufactured by Brusa.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 23 Feb 2006 at 23:09, Bob Rice wrote:
> Doesn't the electrolyte in the Nicad battery do the chemical
> thing, rather than the plates?
No, the electrolyte takes no part in the reaction. It's strictly an ion
carrier. The plates do all the heavy lifting.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 26 Feb 2006 at 12:41, kluge wrote:
> here are two 5 watt,
> 3K ohm resisters at the edge of the circuit board which appear to have gotten
> pretty hot; I can't see anything else visually that looks suspect. Are those
> the resistors you're talking about?
Sorry, it's been too long - a dozen or so years - and I don't recall the
details any more. I thought only one resistor went south, but it might have
been two. I had a lot of help on this from a EE friend, who reverse-
engineered the logic board and figured out what the problem was.
I'd say it can't hurt to chip off the potting compound and try replacing
them.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Post on these NGs and you should have some luck. Great people on both.
rec.crafts.metalworking
alt.machines.cnc
Pedroman
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 6:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Any Myford lathe owners help me out (not really EV)
If you don't have any luck here, visit practicalmachinist.com - a great
machinist's resource.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Luck Home
Sent: February 26, 2006 3:16 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Any Myford lathe owners help me out (not really EV)
Well at last I have managed to get myself a lathe - its a bit of a crock but
it will be great for skimming comms.
I have to rebuild it as the bed is worn and I have a replacement but ....
hope of all hopes... does anyone have a myford 7 lathe on the EV list who
could help me with info on changing the headstock drive belt.
Cant seem to work out how to get the spindle out to put the belt on/off.
TIA
John
www.bedfordev.flyer.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Welding only the outside edge of the laminations only shorts the outer edges
together. There is no weld in the inner edge of the laminations therefore
there is no shorted turn. It is only a U shaped conductor. Not an entire
turn.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: Small Bad Dumb Charger
> Lee Hart wrote:
> ...
> The most difficult are welded together (mainly
> > used for very cheap transformers); you have to grind off the welds to
> > get them apart.
> >
> > The laminations are coated with a thin layer of varnish. This keeps them
> > from rusting, and also provides electrical insulation between them.
> > Without this varnish, they would short circuit to each other, and act
> > like a solid lump of iron. This looks like a shorted turn, and greatly
> > lowers efficiency.
>
> Welding laminations together in fact does short them electrically
> at (near) the weld seam. While outcome of such a construction is
> not as bad as a lump chunk of iron, it must be lowering efficiency
> even worse. What surprises me even relatively large transformers
> have this. Sure large transformer can be made cheaply too :-)
>
> In my previous life I took apart countless amount of transformers
> with wedging a blade between laminations. Twisting the core slightly
> usually frees all of them at once (from one end). The reason doing this
> was because new cores and magnet wire were not easily available.
>
> These days very few bother since custom transformers can be easily
> ordered and also people's time doing it worth far more than transformer
> itself. Use to be not the case at least for me. Great educational
> thing too.
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I see $0.05 a kWh on the summer schedule from midnight to 7 am.
I did not see any references to the $0.45 price.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 12:58 AM
Subject: RE: V2G, vehicle to grid - fantastic concept
> How about:
> If you're cycling your pack twice as often, it lasts half as long?
> How much does a second pack cost, just to cover the extra cycle per day?
>
> I agree that in peak demand, nobody (on TOU) is paying $1, but
> it certainly is not $0.09 either.
> http://www.pge.com/about_us/environment/electric_vehicles/index.html
> Towards the bottom, you will see summer peak at 28c/kWh.
> Note that this is for "Baseline" use.
> When you use more than 200% of average in summer, you are
> talking about a price over 45c/kWh.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Since the peak demand occurs between 4 and 6 PM according
some of the graphs I saw, you need to look at the *peak*
price, that is when you are selling from vehicle to grid.
To answer another myth: no, you are not draining your pack
empty just before you need to drive home.
All V2G proposals have a user configurable limit that
indicates the minimum energy that will be left in the
batteries after it has sold electricity to the grid.
Before and right after selling, it may actually start
recharging but worst case you unplug your EV just at
the end of the selling period, so you can guarantee
you can drive home by setting the limit to the
proper level.
Many people have 10 or 20 kWh more in their batteries
than they need to get home.
If you want to sell that on a daily basis, depends on
the price you are getting for it.
My gut feeling says it is not feasible at this moment
simply because there are too few EVs,
chargers are not setup for V2G,
vehicles are not setup for V2G,
pricing is not covering real costs (pack replacement)
and not everyone would like to gamble with the power
in their batteries if they can still make home and
are not able to run an extra errand, so it also
means an additional inconvenience.
I agree that the idea and concept are great,
just like bulk-charging stations are a great idea.
Now we need a good sized clout to implement it and
address the above issues.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Joe Smalley
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 9:27 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: V2G, vehicle to grid - fantastic concept
I see $0.05 a kWh on the summer schedule from midnight to 7 am.
I did not see any references to the $0.45 price.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 12:58 AM
Subject: RE: V2G, vehicle to grid - fantastic concept
> How about:
> If you're cycling your pack twice as often, it lasts half as long?
> How much does a second pack cost, just to cover the extra cycle per day?
>
> I agree that in peak demand, nobody (on TOU) is paying $1, but
> it certainly is not $0.09 either.
> http://www.pge.com/about_us/environment/electric_vehicles/index.html
> Towards the bottom, you will see summer peak at 28c/kWh.
> Note that this is for "Baseline" use.
> When you use more than 200% of average in summer, you are
> talking about a price over 45c/kWh.
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--- Begin Message ---
http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ5872970645QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
For $25 you are buying an expensive $0.05 resistor...
Must be the original orange/black wiring and the
self adhesive tape.
Just an advice: go to a parts store, Radio Shed or Fries or
your own preferred supplier and get yourself a pre-scaler
resistor for pennies.
(I will post another message about how to create a prescaler)
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
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--- Begin Message ---
NOTE: the following suggests working with high voltages
and currents that can harm you. Use this for your education
and know what you are doing, I do not take responsibility
if you harm yourself or your equipment.
With that out of the way:
Sensing battery voltage with a meter that has limited
input range is not difficult at all.
This is exacly what was done for many years on the
analog multi-meters.
Especially if you know the meter's internal resistance,
then you can compensate for it or use it as part of the
divider, but without that knowledge you can still allow
measuring voltages that are much higher than the meter
was designed for and make an accurate pre-scaler.
This actually works for Emeter, Link 10 and other types such as XMB.
Only requirement is that the meter allows you to select a pre-scaler
value, so it will display a measured 50.0V as 500V.
What you need for a 10 times prescaler (500V on a 50V meter):
Trim-potmeter and HV resistor.
HV Resistor that is sufficiently capable of taking the full
pack voltage without burning up or flashover (it must be
specified to a voltage higher than your pack).
Trim-potmeter of about 15 to 20% the value of the resistor.
If your trimpotmeter is lower in resistance, then you can add
a fixed resistor in series with it of about 10% of the HV resistor.
Example: 820kOhm 1/2Watt HV resistor and 100k trimpotmeter.
You connect the HV resistor to your pack +, the other side goes
to BOTH the trim-potmeter and the Emeter, Link-10 or whatever
positive input; the middle (wiper) contact of the potmeter
connects to the 3rd contact of the potmeter and this also
goes to the pack - and the negative of the Emeter....
You set the trim-potmeter somewhere in the middle and power
up the Emeter, link-10... as well as connecting a good
(high resistance) digital voltmeter (DVM) to your pack,
note down the pack voltage and then connect it to the
input of the Emeter,
then you turn the trim-potmeter up/down until the DVM
shows exactly 10% of the pack voltage, the Emeter should
now also read this voltage.
Your pre-scaler is now ready.
Make sure everything is well insulated, fused and mounted,
so you are not creating a hazard. Fuse with a 500V DC
inline fuse of 1A or less in the wire connecting to the pack +
or place the HV resistor at the pack +, so everything from
there is limited to less than 1 mA current.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Rod Hower
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 4:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Emeter voltage prescaler
Jim,
That circuit looks familiar, it's inside the Sparrow
EVCL box (that Otmar originally designed when his
company was called EVCL, the name stayed with the
box!)
The EVCL is a small box that looks for the seatbelt,
brake pressure sensors and a couple of other things
to turn on idiot lights on the dash and also to enable
the motor control.
Looks like I'm out of luck with the XMB according to
Xantrex.
Rod
--- Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> How about this:
> http://www.cafeelectric.com/temp/Prescaler.GIF
> It looks familiar, like what I remember Lee posting
> in his ASCII art.
> The internal resistance of the meter must form the
> other half of the
> voltage divider.
>
> I've used the E-Meter and Link-10 which are the
> same... no clue as to
> what the XMB is?
>
>
> Rod Hower wrote:
> > I have the new XMB Xantrex Battery Monitor.
> > I looked all over for Lee Harts prescaler circuit
> > (checked archives etc).
> > I wonder if this would even work with the newer
> meter?
> > Has anybody tried there own prescaler with the
> XMB?
> > Thanks,
> > Rod
> >
> > --- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I have a Xantrex 9-35Vdc Emeter that I want to use
> >>on
> >>a 12*13= 156Vdc nominal, 215Vdc max during charge
> >>battery pack on a Sparrow.
> >>The manual calls out a part # 854-2018-01 voltage
> >>prescaler but does not mention input voltage.
> >>I'm guessing the prescaler is just a resistor in
> >>line
> >>with the battery + line.
> >>Any ideas on what I should use for a 156Vdc
> nominal
> >>pack?
> >>Thanks,
> >>Rod
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak's
> 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I have a collection of old transformers, all come
from recycled old equipment.
I have even rewound some transformers in the same
way as Lee describes.
You can pick up many of them on any given moment
by looking for equipment that is available for free
(search your local Craiglist or Freecycle or whatever list)
or pick up a broken magnetron oven.
No need to go through all the hassle of contacting
a manufacturer of transformers, most likely the
original manufacturer is in Taiwan or China, even
though you may be calling a US company that is
manufacturing a product of the proper power rating.
Or go to your local Radio Shed, Fries or favorite store
and buy a new transformer of the proper wattage and a
voltage equal or higher than what you need, then
ignore the secondary coil and only use the primary.
Warning for the magnetron transformer, here the
secondary is actually the High Voltage coil, so make
sure you isolate those connections well.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 4:49 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Small Bad Dumb Charger
Perhaps, have not had any need for them to investigate further.
Since manufacturers make transformers, they must make/buy loose
plates first. Ask them if you can get any.
Victor
mike golub wrote:
> So can you just buy the "plates" that exist in the
> transformer?
> Who sells them?
>
> --- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>>Lee Hart wrote:
>>...
>>The most difficult are welded together (mainly
>>
>>>used for very cheap transformers); you have to
>>
>>grind off the welds to
>>
>>>get them apart.
>>>
>>>The laminations are coated with a thin layer of
>>
>>varnish. This keeps them
>>
>>>from rusting, and also provides electrical
>>
>>insulation between them.
>>
>>>Without this varnish, they would short circuit to
>>
>>each other, and act
>>
>>>like a solid lump of iron. This looks like a
>>
>>shorted turn, and greatly
>>
>>>lowers efficiency.
>>
>>Welding laminations together in fact does short them
>>electrically
>>at (near) the weld seam. While outcome of such a
>>construction is
>>not as bad as a lump chunk of iron, it must be
>>lowering efficiency
>>even worse. What surprises me even relatively large
>>transformers
>>have this. Sure large transformer can be made
>>cheaply too :-)
>>
>>In my previous life I took apart countless amount of
>>transformers
>>with wedging a blade between laminations. Twisting
>>the core slightly
>>usually frees all of them at once (from one end).
>>The reason doing this
>>was because new cores and magnet wire were not
>>easily available.
>>
>>These days very few bother since custom transformers
>>can be easily
>>ordered and also people's time doing it worth far
>>more than transformer
>>itself. Use to be not the case at least for me.
>>Great educational
>>thing too.
>>
>>--
>>Victor
>>'91 ACRX - something different
>>
>>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Some people," as in tens of thousands of ev'ers
buying into the concept? With efficient lithium
battery packs? Since California's old ev mandates
didn't hold up, we're back to the chicken - egg
problem in getting this idea off the ground.
Fortunately, some public utilities are keen on
implementing V2G. Is anything moving ahead in Seattle
on this?
http://www.nwcurrent.com/smartenergy/1637126.html
I'm most excited about V2G as a way to get more ev's
on the road, and more ev charging stations so battery
packs can be topped off opportunistically. The
$3000/yr would be tasty frosting, though.
It's necessary to read beyond that first article
referenced in my earlier post on this. It's a good
intro but more details are in the other references and
articles they point to.
"Services to the grid," not sale of power back to the
grid, would provide the most V2G revenue for ev's. The
following url explains in more detail:
http://www.udel.edu/V2G/V2G-Cal-ExecSum.html
The big contributor to the $3000 mentioned is for
providing "regulation services." Some assumptions in
the above study, such as the projected number of ev's,
haven't held up. The article addresses how V2G might
work in CA.
If ev owners aren't keen on this concept, it won't be
ev's that provide regulation services.
$3000 a year is more than an ev'er would likely pay
for batteries. Could it be that it's more
cost-effective for the utilities to outsource the
regulation services than install systems to do this?
-brian
> > From: Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: V2G, vehicle to grid - fantastic
> concept
> Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 09:00:40 -0800
> To: [email protected]
>
> I think V2G depends on some people
> On Feb 26, 2006, at 12:42 AM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> > Not to mention the fact that the times when the
> grid would most
> > need the
> > extra power are the same times I would need to
> have my vehicle
> > available
> > for driving.
> >
> > The peak power draws, at least where I live, are
> in the morning when
> > people are getting ready for work and in the
> evening when they
> > return home
> > for work.
> > In the morning I need my car charged and ready to
> go and in the
> > evening
> > the batteries are already drained.
> >
> > The V2G concept seems to depend on me never
> driving my car.
> >
> >> The first article states "The study estimates
> that a properly
> >> managed V2G
> >> car could net the owner close to $3,000 per
> year."
> >>
> >> Assuming a car holds 10 kWh of energy and is
> cycled twice a day
> >> from 50%
> >> to
> >> 100%, then the owner of the car would buy and
> sell 10 kWh of
> >> energy daily.
> >> If this occurred 300 days a year, the owner would
> net $10 a day. This
> >> implies that the DIFFERENCE between buy price and
> the sell price
> >> was $1
> >> per
> >> kWh.
> >>
> >> Since I'm paying about $.09 a kWh for power now,
> are they assuming
> >> a huge
> >> increase in the price of power?
> >>
> >> Joe Smalley
> >> Rural Kitsap County WA
> >> Fiesta 48 volts
> >> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Brian Cole" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: <[email protected]>
> >> Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 12:08 AM
> >> Subject: V2G, vehicle to grid - fantastic concept
> >>
> >>
> >>> Does V2G, or vehicle-to-grid, satisfy needs to
> both
> >>> charge & discharge from the grid? I hope this is
> where
> >>> the plug-in concept is headed.
> >>>
> >>> http://www.greenmtn.edu/news/V2G.asp
> >>>
>
http://www.allbusiness.com/periodicals/article/116808-1.html
> >>> http://www.udel.edu/V2G/
> >>>
>
http://www.geotimes.org/aug05/feature_pluginhybrid.html
> >>>
> >>
>
http://www.sustainableballard.org/ev2g/pdf/Kempton-V2G-Designing-
>
> >> June05.pdf
> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid
> >>> http://www.sustainableballard.org/
> >>> http://www.acpropulsion.com/white_papers.htm
> >>>
> >>
>
http://hydrogen.its.ucdavis.edu/people/bwilliams/ploneexfile.
>
> >> 2005-05-06.7767555063/preview_popup
> >>>
> >> http://electrictransportsolutions.blogspot.com/
> >>
> 2005_07_17_electrictransportsolutions_archive.html
> >>> -brian
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--- Begin Message ---
I just don't see it, myself. The power grid still has to be designed
with its own reserve capacity because they can't rely on the vehicles to
be in the right place at the right time, every time. I mean, you have a
holiday or flu scare or sunny day or whatever and people's habits
change and the capacity may not be there.
If battery power is indeed economical and in such demand that they'll
pay $3000/yr to use it, then me, I'm investing in raw bulk capacity and
one much bigger and cheaper (per kw) inverter/charger to do 30x that,
and get $90k a year. It would take a year or two for the system to pay
itself off and then I can retire. Heck, I'll put one on every block and
become a millionare.
Of course I'm kidding. What I'm saying is the principle doesn't seem to
be realistic, if the peak demand power is really worth that much then
the power company would simply buy their own system, put it exactly
where they need it and professionally maintain it, which is far more
effective and cheaper. The numbers either aren't really that high or
won't stay that high. Perhaps they arose from an unrealistic "best case
ever" scenario, or maybe those numbers would come way down once the
power company realizes they can meet the peak demand issue themselves
economically with their own huge li-ion battery banks.
Danny
Brian Cole wrote:
"Some people," as in tens of thousands of ev'ers
buying into the concept? With efficient lithium
battery packs? Since California's old ev mandates
didn't hold up, we're back to the chicken - egg
problem in getting this idea off the ground.
Fortunately, some public utilities are keen on
implementing V2G. Is anything moving ahead in Seattle
on this?
http://www.nwcurrent.com/smartenergy/1637126.html
--- End Message ---
