EV Digest 5215
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Can a generator be fitted on an EV, powered by the drivetrain?
by "steve ollerton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Emeter voltage prescaler - howto
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: It's the energy density problem
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: It's the energy density problem
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Brakes .. Vacuum to manual
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Portland Rod & Custom Show, the Wayland Report (pt. 1)
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Bad cells/battery mainteneance
by "Mark Fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Any Myford lathe owners help me out (not really EV)
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Charcoal fuel cell
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Revived and free batteries?
by "Ted C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Charcoal fuel cell
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Revived and free batteries?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: It's the energy density problem
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: precharge circuit
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
What about the friction caused when one wants to go and work on ones EV and
the wife is less than agreeable?? :-p
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 9:21 AM
Subject: Re: Can a generator be fitted on an EV, powered by the drivetrain?
Is it at all possible for a generator or alternator to run off the motion
of the vehicle itself?
Yup you sure can. You can also tie and anchor to the EV and throw it out
the back when you're driving down the road, it has pretty much the same
effect.
Ok, let's take a look at this. The universe we live in has a thing called
friction, which I'm sure you've heard of. Friction shows up in all kinds
of places. There is friction in the bearings, their is friction in the
air moving past/over the vehicle, their is even friction in the tires
rolling down the road. All of this friction converts motion into heat and
in the process tries to slow down the vehicle.
There is a really easy test to see this happen. Get in a car and
accelerate up to say 50 mph. Then put it in neutral and coast. What
happens? The car slows down right?
In order to stay at 50 mph you have to add enough energy to overcome the
energy lost to friction. This is where the motor comes in. This energy
that the motor is producing isn't free energy that available for other
things, it's ALL being used up to keep the vehicle moving.
If you want to add something else then the motor has to produce MORE
energy to power it.
Now lets take a look at the generator. As we've just shown their isn't
any free energy hanging around to power the generator, so we have to get
the power from somewhere. In this case that somewhere is the drive motor.
Now we have other losses in the vehicle besides friction that we haven't
talked about yet. The motor has losses; electrical losses, mechanical
losses, and magentic losses. The generator has these same kinds of
losses.
So the net result is that in order to get 1 watt out of the generator we
have to put an extra 2 watts into the motor (the 1 watt that we get out of
the generator plus another 1 watt for losses)
So if we hook this up and try to charge our batteries while driving, we
actually end up running them down faster.
Now there are a couple practical reasons to add a generator.
One of them, as others have mentioned, is to help slow the vehicle down
when you want to. Every watt of energy the generator produces is about 1
1/2 watts of energy it takes away from the motion of the vehicle. The
more watts you take out, the faster the vehicle slows down. This is
called regenerative braking. Since we're not using the drive motor to
push the car when we're slowing down, we can put this energy back into the
pack.
Most folks who do this don't actually add a generator however; they just
change the way the motor operates and use it as a generator.
Another way some people use a generator is to keep the 12V battery used
for lights and accessories charged up. Most folks use a DC-DC converter
charge the accessory battery from the main battery pack. However, DC-DC
converters are somewhat expensive, wo some folks use a standard car
alternator driven by the drive motor instead. It's cheaper, but has a
couple disadvantage. It's not as effecient as the DC-DC (the DC-DC might
take 1.2 watts out of the main pack to put 1 watt into the acc battery,
where the Alternator will take 2 watts), and the alternator stops working
when you come to a stop unless you idle the drive motor (which is REALLY
inefficient)
Welcome to the list.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Great job , one part I would add , and it won't cost much. a zener 40v diode
and put it between the neg and pos sense , where your middle pot wire goes
into the meter , This would blow the fuse if for any reason the voltage to
the meter went over 40v. Another thing to think about is to set it so it
reads like a single 12v battery , no mater what pack voltage is . This way
when your talking to other people , or driving in other EV's , or other
people driving your ev will know what the meter is saying . This way as the
years go by and you develop a sense of what 11.4 or 10.9 means you can talk
to other people or drive other cars , or change your pack voltage and still
have that same deep sense of what the battery is telling you .
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 3:16 AM
Subject: RE: Emeter voltage prescaler - howto
NOTE: the following suggests working with high voltages
and currents that can harm you. Use this for your education
and know what you are doing, I do not take responsibility
if you harm yourself or your equipment.
With that out of the way:
Sensing battery voltage with a meter that has limited
input range is not difficult at all.
This is exacly what was done for many years on the
analog multi-meters.
Especially if you know the meter's internal resistance,
then you can compensate for it or use it as part of the
divider, but without that knowledge you can still allow
measuring voltages that are much higher than the meter
was designed for and make an accurate pre-scaler.
This actually works for Emeter, Link 10 and other types such as XMB.
Only requirement is that the meter allows you to select a pre-scaler
value, so it will display a measured 50.0V as 500V.
What you need for a 10 times prescaler (500V on a 50V meter):
Trim-potmeter and HV resistor.
HV Resistor that is sufficiently capable of taking the full
pack voltage without burning up or flashover (it must be
specified to a voltage higher than your pack).
Trim-potmeter of about 15 to 20% the value of the resistor.
If your trimpotmeter is lower in resistance, then you can add
a fixed resistor in series with it of about 10% of the HV resistor.
Example: 820kOhm 1/2Watt HV resistor and 100k trimpotmeter.
You connect the HV resistor to your pack +, the other side goes
to BOTH the trim-potmeter and the Emeter, Link-10 or whatever
positive input; the middle (wiper) contact of the potmeter
connects to the 3rd contact of the potmeter and this also
goes to the pack - and the negative of the Emeter....
You set the trim-potmeter somewhere in the middle and power
up the Emeter, link-10... as well as connecting a good
(high resistance) digital voltmeter (DVM) to your pack,
note down the pack voltage and then connect it to the
input of the Emeter,
then you turn the trim-potmeter up/down until the DVM
shows exactly 10% of the pack voltage, the Emeter should
now also read this voltage.
Your pre-scaler is now ready.
Make sure everything is well insulated, fused and mounted,
so you are not creating a hazard. Fuse with a 500V DC
inline fuse of 1A or less in the wire connecting to the pack +
or place the HV resistor at the pack +, so everything from
there is limited to less than 1 mA current.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Rod Hower
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 4:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Emeter voltage prescaler
Jim,
That circuit looks familiar, it's inside the Sparrow
EVCL box (that Otmar originally designed when his
company was called EVCL, the name stayed with the
box!)
The EVCL is a small box that looks for the seatbelt,
brake pressure sensors and a couple of other things
to turn on idiot lights on the dash and also to enable
the motor control.
Looks like I'm out of luck with the XMB according to
Xantrex.
Rod
--- Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
How about this:
http://www.cafeelectric.com/temp/Prescaler.GIF
It looks familiar, like what I remember Lee posting
in his ASCII art.
The internal resistance of the meter must form the
other half of the
voltage divider.
I've used the E-Meter and Link-10 which are the
same... no clue as to
what the XMB is?
Rod Hower wrote:
> I have the new XMB Xantrex Battery Monitor.
> I looked all over for Lee Harts prescaler circuit
> (checked archives etc).
> I wonder if this would even work with the newer
meter?
> Has anybody tried there own prescaler with the
XMB?
> Thanks,
> Rod
>
> --- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>>I have a Xantrex 9-35Vdc Emeter that I want to use
>>on
>>a 12*13= 156Vdc nominal, 215Vdc max during charge
>>battery pack on a Sparrow.
>>The manual calls out a part # 854-2018-01 voltage
>>prescaler but does not mention input voltage.
>>I'm guessing the prescaler is just a resistor in
>>line
>>with the battery + line.
>>Any ideas on what I should use for a 156Vdc
nominal
>>pack?
>>Thanks,
>>Rod
>>
>>
>
>
>
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think we need to decide how to classify energy storage,carrier, and fuel.
While we all agree a battery or spring is energy storage there seems to
be more gray area between a fuel and carrier. Lets look at hydrogen again.
If it comes from electrolysis of water and is used to generate
electricity in a fuel cell, it is obviously a carrier.(why not just use
the electricity?)
If it comes off of fossil fuels and is burned in an engine, it is
obviously a fuel.
The gray area is when a mix of sources goes to a mix of uses. hydrogen
lends itself to this.
Even all this worry about CO2 emissions is a little cloudy, after all,
Humans generate CO2. It is not about the CO2, it is about the carbon. We
humans consume and return the carbon constantly and ultimately within a
150 year max cycle. The use of fossil fuels releases carbon (that ties
up Oxygen in the form of CO2, with all it's delirious effects) that was
stored millions of years ago and will take millions to put back. Maybe
that is what was being said about the carbon fuelcell?
Hydrogen used as an energy carrier is ineffient.
(generation,compression,transportation,refueling/handleing)
Hydrogen used as a fuel is ok, if we had a source without releasing a
bunch of carbon to get at it.
The same could be said about electricity
electricity is definetly a carrier
but generated from fossile fuels is bad
generated from hydroeletric,*solar,wind is good.
* standard disclaimer about energy used to create solar cells.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually that's not quite true. SOFCs exist (are in testing and
development) which can retrieve more than 80% of the fuel's energy
content.
There is a small (5kW) unit quite near to market that is intended to
run on diesel, to provide power for air-conditioning and accessories
in trucks, without needing to idle the engine.
The technology could also replace almost all small engines used for
generator sets, construction equipment, lawnmowers etc, (very low
emissions, a lot more efficient, very quiet) if they ever make it
cheap enough.
It'd be better to have one that ran on ethanol or biodiesel though, presumably.
Evan
On 2/25/06, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yes they do, but extract pitiful amount of joules gasoline
> possess.
>
> Victor
>
>
> Mike Ellis wrote:
> > Fuel cells do this now.
> >
> > -Mike
> >
> >
> > On 2/24/06, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >>Mike & Paula Willmon wrote:
> >>
> >>>Remember though that the volumetric energy that you refer to for
> >>
> >>gasoline is
> >>
> >>>heat energy.
> >>
> >>No. Energy is energy, so many joules in a liter of gasoline, period.
> >>It just happens that today it can only be extracted by burning it
> >>(so as heat), but if someone years from now discovers a way to
> >>efficiently convert chemical energy of unburned cold gasoline
> >>to electrical energy (similar to photo-cells converting light energy)
> >>without burning it, than heating won't be an issue at all.
> >>
> >>That's the theory, which may or may not practically happen though.
> >>
> >>Victor
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It can easily be done, at least on some vehicles. You have to open the power
assist canister, remove the diaphragm and the spring. On my Datsun, the bolt
patterns were the same, so we just removed the whole canister and shortened
the actuator rod. It made a world of difference, and the brakes are fine.
Might not be wise for a woman driver, or someone with MS; but for a normal
male driver, it only requires about twice the force applied to the pedal
from the power brakes.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 10:09 AM
Subject: Brakes .. Vacuum to manual
> Can the diaphram be broken/ punctured to make manual brakes that are
> easier to push than just removing the line ?
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
OK, I'm back to 100% energy level after recuperating from the four days
of the car show. As I had previously written, White Zombie had been
invited to be part of the EV display that also featured two of Father
Time's creations (there's so many to choose from)....his bright blue
electric Legend car and one of his outrageous electric motorcycles. It
was a three day, Friday - Sunday show, but the load-in for the show's
participants was on Thursday, with the show opening to the public Friday
morning, so for participants, it's 4 days of intense car stuff. Tim and
I both took Friday off from work so we could work the booth at the show.
I was giving a forklift controls class Wednesday - Thursday, so it
worked out perfectly that I was not in my work truck taking service
calls all over the place, wrenching on stuff, and in general getting
banged up and filthy. Instead of driving my service truck to and from
work as is the norm, I drove electrically to work both days. Having an
EV at one of my classes is a great way to break the ice with out-of-town
students, and the newest young guys at our facility hadn't seen my EVs
in person yet. Having an on-road EV at the shop is also a great tool for
showing the similarities an electric forklift has with a highway capable
EV, and of course, for demonstrating the differences as well. It's also
something the higher-ups like when they've got customers or
manufacturers' reps in town at our facility for meetings and such, as
the electric cars are a fun sideshow...."Over here is a Crown RR5225
reach truck, over there is a new Crown PE4000 rider pallet, and over
here is the world's quickest accelerating electric car...the guy who
built it, is our corporate trainer and a senior field technician."
The entire week, Portland was under the influence of that arctic air
that enveloped much of the country, and though nowhere near as c-cold as
it gets in other places, still, at 20-24 degree morning temperatures and
with a 20-25 mile east wind coming at you and with our west coast
humidity we get in the winter, it was very cold. East of the Cascade
Mountain range in central Oregon's high desert country (places like Bend
and Redmond that I often write about) has a completely different kind of
cold than what we get here in the Willamette Valley. Over there in the
higher altitude arid region you can walk out of your hotel coat-less to
get stuff out of your vehicle when it's 12 degrees outside, and it just
feels brisk. On my trips for service calls to the area, I often work
outside in it...it's a kind of cold that's easy to put up with. Here in
Portland with the wet air and the seemingly constant east wind huffing
out of the Columbia Gorge into Portland's east side, geesh, it's cold!!
Wednesday morning, I drove Blue Meanie to work. With its new stickers
good till '08, and the current registration and insurance info back in
the car where they belong, I've cleaned up my act. Indeed, a new Plasma
Boy was at the wheel...no speeding, no antics, and very careful
attention paid to all traffic lights :-) Before going to the freeway, I
stopped by the local Winchell's and picked up 2 dozen donuts to bribe my
new students with. On the freeway east, the old battery pack did great
on the 6 mile drive to work, heater on full all the way, and 60 mph
speeds fighting dead into the strong winds. Being such a little car, the
1500 watt ceramic element does a good job of keeping me warm.
At work, with the car temporarily parked inside the service shop area,
the PFC charger efficiently put back the electrons used while donut
chomping mechanics had fun going over the car. Lifting up the hood
exposing the eye candy under there...bright yellow Optimas, pretty green
Zilla and Manzanita Micro boxes, tidy stainless steel bracketry, ruby
red and onyx black clear car audio 1/0 power cables, and the now 13 year
old 9 inch ADC motor still boldly visible and still looking fresh and
new, always brings out a few 'Wows', but it's the remote control
motorized rear battery tray (simple as it seems) that's always a big
hit. "Where's the rest of your batteries? (everyone follows me around
back to the trunk, as I secretly click button #2 of the remote in my
pocket....c-clunk...the trunk lid pops open.....click #4 and
...Whirrrrr, out slides the stainless steel tray with 7 more YTs)
...."Oh, here they are!" :-) :-)
Thursday, I wanted to drive White Zombie, both for showing the students
my 'other EV' and, to exercise the pack a bit so the trip to the show
after work would be an easy 16 mile drive that wouldn't pull the pack
down too hard. This car doesn't have a built in heater, though I do have
plans for one. My backyard EV shop is insulated and warm, so the car is
at least comfortable when you first get in.
I borrowed the compact PFC20 hotrod charger out of Blue Meanie (it's
easily comes out with the removal of one thumbscrew) as taking the
bigger PFC50 (on loan from George Tylinski) was too awkward.
Sidebar...my new PFC75 is being made for me by the Madman. As on
Wednesday, it was windy and cold again. By the time I arrived to work I
was wishing I had a heater! The show and tell thing was fun, and
everyone seemed to enjoy seeing the more radical EV. I was unable to
keep the car inside our warehouse shop area due to all the forklift
activity, so it sat outside to cold soak all day. Still, the PFC charger
had it all amped up for the ride back to the Wayland EV juice bar.
Heater-less and with the interior prechilled, the drive home was a
c-cold one!
After a long work day wrenching on electric forklifts and doing his
super busy foreman stuff, Tim headed west to his place 30 miles away in
Scapoose to get cleaned up, while I got home driving the Zombie in just
10 minutes (eat your heart out, Tim). We had it planned that he would
meet me at the Expo Center since it's located in northwest Portland a
lot closer to his place than my house. I would drive White Zombie the 16
miles or so from the east side along the river on Marine Drive, which is
also the way we also take to get to PIR for our weekend drag racing runs
to PIR. I put the car on charge with it back in the warm shop while I
showered and got cleaned up (and warmed up) for the night's activities
at the Portland Expo Center setting up the EV display. I took my damp
shower towel to the car for a quickie wipe-down, vacuumed the inside,
and aired-up the tires. The worn out BF Goodrich drag radials don't hold
air so well these days, and need to be aired-up about every 5 days or
so. Though the EV shop was warm, the temperature outside had dropped to
about 22 degrees, but with a 20--25 mph east wind still puffing away, it
felt way colder!
I wasn't about to be miserable on the 20 -25 minute drive to the center,
so I put together an interesting last minute EV heater. I grabbed two
spare 24 lb. Hawker Aerobatteries, the same models I use in the car, and
wired them in parallel with 1/0 short cables to make up one 52 ahr 12V
battery. They had been sitting for 6 months unused, so I discharged them
with a pair of aircraft landing lights for about 10 minutes, then
recharged them with a 40 amp Todd supply. After this one shallow cycle,
I put them on the passenger floor just ahead of the seat. I then grabbed
a spare 1200 watt inverter and wired it up with thick cables to the twin
Hawkers. Next, I got one of my garage sale specials, a 1200/1500 watt 6
X 6 X 6 inch, glowing nichrome wire type cube style electric heater I
picked up some time ago for $5, and placed it in the car next to the
inverter and batteries on the floor. With it plugged into the 120 vac
inverter, I now had a nifty heater! The inverter is under-rated and can
actually put out 1600 watts continuous, so if I needed to, I could run
the heater in the 1500 watt mode. Of course, 1500 output watts is about
1700 'consumed watts' from the batteries, so that's ~ 150 amps with the
batteries kneeling to 11.5V under that load! The Hawkers are tough and I
knew they'd be up to the task. At about 75 amps discharge per battery, I
figured the 24 ahr (C10 rating) batteries could last 12-15 minuets
before falling to the 10.75 V the inverter's low battery alarm is set
for. With a mix of 1200 & 1500 watt settings on the heater, I figured
the setup would be good for 20 minutes of heat.
I loaded up White Zombie with a large poster, it's support tripod, and a
few other show items and headed out for the drive to the show. It had
only been inside the shop for about an hour, so it never did get all
that warmed up after its day-long cold storage. It didn't take long for
the car to get cooled off, and by the time I was a couple miles from
home approaching Marine Drive, I switched on the inverter and powered up
the heater at the highest power 1500 watt mode. In the darkening
evening, the elements glowed a friendly orange and sent instant hot air
into the cold cabin to warm me up in a hurry. Once I was comfortable, I
turned the heater down to the 1200 watt setting and had a nice warm drive.
Tim and I were in phone contact and decided to have our dinner near the
center. We met up in the parking lot of the Subway sandwich place near
the Expo Center. As he got out of his ride, Tim was his usual self and
jabbed me on how he was all warm and comfy driving his Chevy pickup into
town...."How'd you do with no heat?" (ha, ha, ha) I told him I'd done
just fine, and that in fact, I was kind of hot :-) The low battery alarm
had 'just' started to whimper at me as I had pulled into the parking
lot. We had toasted sandwiches, then headed the additional mile on over
the Expo Center. The twin Hawkers had bounced back nicely and put out
enough juice to run the heater at 1200 watts until I made into the Expo
parking lot, where again right on cue, the inverter's low battery alarm
just started to annoy me. It was crude, but my last minute heater had
worked out great.
There was a lot of shivering while waiting to get in, but after a few
phone calls and finally getting in touch with Father Time, we eventually
saw one of the large roll-up doors lift, to let us drive in with the
car. It's weird to come in from the cold colorless darkness into the
brightly lit and warm Expo Center filled with colorful hotrods,
dragsters, muscle cars, exotic motorcycles, and anything else automotive
you can imagine! We got a lot of stares as the car silently rolled in
past dedicated motorheads lovingly caressing and polishing their
machines. About all you could hear was the beefy rear end's Detroit
Locker ratcheting it's 'click, click, click, click' sound as we turned
this way and that over to the 'electric' booth.
The first thing on my mind was to find power to plug into, to give the
car's batteries a well deserved recharge. It was about 7:30 pm. The
priority for others though, was to get the car positioned in our
cordoned-off area alongside FT's drag bike and the Legend car. Once we
had it in place, we resumed the search for outlets. The pack wasn't in
any danger and it had made the trip just fine, but the idea of leaving
the expensive pack 60% or so discharged for 4 long days was not an
option, I'm really not into permanent sulfation! Surprisingly, in a huge
place like the Expo Center, power outlets were in short supply. Seems we
needed to have the facility's maintenance man, yes you've got this
correct...one guy for this entire immense building we were in, to come
to us where he'd arrange to supply us power. We were told he'd lift up
one of so many floor mounted grates where power sockets are in
casket-like dugouts, then run cords under long yellow rubber floor
runners over to out area. We were also told there was a $75 charge for
each booth requiring power....nice! Tim and I made our way to the show's
announcer desk, told him of our need for power, and heard the page go
out over the echoing system.... 'MAINTENANCE.S.S.s.s.s TO.O.o.o.
THU.U.u.u.u.. SHOW.O.O.O.o.o.o DESK.K.K.K.KK.k.k.k.k......' Then we
waited, and waited. No maintenance dude! We kept busy detailing the car
and all, but I really wanted to get the car plugged in, knowing that
minus a 40-50 amp 240 vac outlet and instead having to rely on 120 vac
and a max 'not popping the breakers' draw of 15 amps or so, the car
would need a couple hour charge time. We returned to the desk, and
another page went out. Then we waited, and waited, and still no
maintenance dude! It was approaching 8:00 pm and we would be booted out
at 10:00. Tim and I had been searching all over for one of the floor
crates to break into where we could run extension cords to our area, but
the nearest ones were 100's of feet away. Tim being Tim, the ultimate in
resourcefulness and all, had been searching relentlessly. He started
laughing all of a sudden and called me over to the car. Get
this.....right under the rear end of White Zombie...I mean, right under
it, was a floor grate! It's lid was unlocked, and under it, an array of
power outlets.
The maintenance guy never did respond to the page, by the way. With the
PFC20 plugged in, we set the output into the pack at a tepid 4.5 amps
with the batteries sitting at 377 volts for a 1700 watt charge level.
This made the draw from the 120V power socket about 1800 watts, or about
15 amps. It worked well and we never popped the breaker, which was a
paramount issue because if we had, who knows where the breaker panel was
located, and we'd never be able to get the maintenance dude to help us!
It took just about 8 ahrs to fill the pack back up to 425V under charge
to where the charger went into the 15 minute finish rate charge. With an
average driving voltage of about 360 under the 45 mph cruise speeds over
16 miles, this amounted to 180 whrs per mile, higher than Blue Meanie's
160 whrs per mile, but considering those fat rear tires and the non LRR
type of front tires the car has, 180 whrs per mile seems pretty darn good.
We talked about setting up a DVD and TV display for playing videos, once
we knew we had 'the power supply' right under the car, but we hadn't
brought the gear with us, and we also did not know whether such a
display was permissible at this EVent, so after the car was show-ready,
we packed up all the wipe-down towels and cleaners, and left to get some
rest.
Stay tuned for a lot more excitement and fun in part 2.....
See Ya.....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
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All:
New to the list, and didn't see anything on the subject below:
Just got a "project" 700 watt EV scooter. As recieved, it is even more
gutless than I expected. It uses four 20 AH AGM batteries in series, for a
nominal 48V.
Checking the battery voltage, it looks like there are two batteries with bad
cells. I'm getting 11 volts on two batteries after a full night's charge,
while the other two batteries in the bank are 13.2 or so right off the
charger.
Can I just swap out the two bad batteries and keep the two known good ones,
or should I replace all 4?
Can I "freshen up" an AGM battery by adding a ~little~ distilled water? The
"sealed" vents amount to a rubber cup over each cell.
The EXTREMELY sketchy Chinese "user's manual" refers to a six-monthly
"maintenance." I suspect they are referring to an equalizing charge. Am I
right?
Mark
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Thankyou Don all sorted out now - it was a tapered shaft and it just taps
out.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 11:40 PM
Subject: RE: Any Myford lathe owners help me out (not really EV)
If you don't have any luck here, visit practicalmachinist.com - a great
machinist's resource.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Luck Home
Sent: February 26, 2006 3:16 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Any Myford lathe owners help me out (not really EV)
Well at last I have managed to get myself a lathe - its a bit of a crock
but
it will be great for skimming comms.
I have to rebuild it as the bed is worn and I have a replacement but ....
hope of all hopes... does anyone have a myford 7 lathe on the EV list who
could help me with info on changing the headstock drive belt.
Cant seem to work out how to get the spindle out to put the belt on/off.
TIA
John
www.bedfordev.flyer.co.uk
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--- Begin Message ---
A few things:
1) "All the carbon required to make the fuel comes from CO2, turning it back
into CO2 is no net change." This is a common argument from people who own
wood stoves. But the argument is narrowly focused, and it does not take into
account the global impact: First of all, it takes trees and land. With
more and more trees being cut down is it really a renewable resource the way
we are consuming them? Second fossil fuels will still be is use for a
**very** long time - so even if we do maintain the number of plants and have
a zero balance CO2, it does **nothing** to help clean up the current mess.
2) "and there's not the complication of relying on another form of power to
fuel it like a hydrogen fuel cell" - consider that it does take a lot of
energy to create the charcoal in the first place.
I am not comparing it against any current or proposed technology, simply
when viewed as a global solution it looks pretty poor.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: February 26, 2006 7:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Charcoal fuel cell
I believe his premise is mostly valid. All the carbon required to make the
fuel comes from CO2, turning it back into CO2 is no net change. The same
cannot be said from fossil fuels, which contain carbon sequestered from a
previous era so there's much more carbon around. Even an EV is usually
powered by electricity primarily generated from natural gas or coal. Or you
might be able to produce energy from the carbon of coal in a more efficient
way with this fuel cell, and perhaps able to retain the problematic sulfur
and mercury compounds as sludge in the cell rather than letting out a
smokestack.
The point would be that it could be a type of renewable fuel cell, and
there's not the complication of relying on another form of power to fuel it
like a hydrogen fuel cell. Of course storing and refilling charcoal powder
is far simpler than storing hydrogen, which would make it really handy.
But, of course any extrapolations of its usefulness are premature. No info
on power density, efficiency, long term reliability, or general practicality
for any application much less EV duty. But that's not surprising in any
way, they're just reporting on an emerging tech development claim and it
would be premature BS to make specific claims.
Danny
Don Cameron wrote:
>Where does the "renewable" charcoal come from? More trees? And then
>what about the all the emissions from making the charcoal? How much
>energy does it take to make charcoal? How much of this energy can the
"fuel cell"
>produce?
>
>
>Here is a phrase that requires some careful thought:
>
>"While fossil-fuel cells also produce carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas,
>charcoal represents a sustainable source of fuel, since the living
>plants that produce the charcoal get their carbon by removing carbon
>dioxide from the atmosphere."
>
>So this technology still produces carbon dioxide. It requires trees.
>The emissions required to create the charcoal are undesirable.
>
>... not impressed.
>
>
>
>Don
>
>
>
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I havn't hear anything. But i live two hours north of there. A couple of
years ago i ran across this article about this subject. So i will throw it
into the mix. I found it quite interesting.
http://www.homepower.com/files/edta.pdf
Ted
Olympia, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Zappylist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[email protected]>; "electric_vehicles_for_sale Moderator"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 11:49 AM
Subject: Revived and free batteries?
> The rumor of battery reviving in Vancouver is back. Can anyone confirm or
> debunk this. Maybe someone from Vancouver.
>
> http://www.geocities.com/battery_rescue/index.html
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> Vegetable Oil Car.
> 415-821-3519
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2/27/06, Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> A few things:
>
> 1) "All the carbon required to make the fuel comes from CO2, turning it
> back
> into CO2 is no net change." This is a common argument from people who own
> wood stoves. But the argument is narrowly focused, and it does not take
> into
> account the global impact: First of all, it takes trees and land. With
> more and more trees being cut down is it really a renewable resource the
> way
> we are consuming them? Second fossil fuels will still be is use for a
> **very** long time - so even if we do maintain the number of plants and
> have
> a zero balance CO2, it does **nothing** to help clean up the current mess.
The simple answer is, that depends. Most of the forests in Canada are
managed. When logged they are left to grow again. In fact the companies must
plant saplings, I believe. This is carbon neutral (except for the fuel used
in the logging equipment).
Forests cleared for agricultural or other use is the (carbon) problem.
It really doesn't matter to the Earth how quickly we use our fossil fuels.
We're going to use most of them in they next couple of hundred years, and
the time to remove most of the carbon from the atmosphere naturally is on
the order of thousands of years.
But we're digressing. This isn't the planetary science list.
-Mike
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There is a maintenance method we used in our battery shops in maintaining
industrial 2 volt cells. Should be call jars not cells. We had thousand of
these jars in our buildings complex used for backup emergency power.
The 300 ah jars that are listed in the below article is about the same type
I used in my EV. They had removable tops which the top and grids can be
pull out.
To repair or clean a jar, we first took voltage, a specific gravity reading
of the specific gravity and a load reading of each jar. We normally
discharge the jars down to 1.200 sg before removing the grids. Removing the
tops and grids we put them into a container of distill water that was a
ultrasound type of cleaner.
We than filter the 1.200 sg acid for reused. Note, only replace the same
specific gravity acid with the same sg reading you take out.
In some cases in a suspected short cell, we would push in new plastic grid
separators while pushing out the old ones. This does two things, it
eliminates the short and pulls out a lot of sulfating that is trap in the
groves of the separators.
After a cleaning rinse in the distill water, the grids was submersed in a
solution of cadmium sulfated which is to remove any traces of sulfating in
the grids. While its in this solution a slight charging is applied.
The jar is then assembled and put in service for about another 5 years.
I did this maintenance on three of my jars in my EV after about 8 years of
service. The sg was not coming up which I suspected it was either a shorted
cell or too much sulfating.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: Revived and free batteries?
> I havn't hear anything. But i live two hours north of there. A couple of
> years ago i ran across this article about this subject. So i will throw it
> into the mix. I found it quite interesting.
>
> http://www.homepower.com/files/edta.pdf
>
>
> Ted
> Olympia, WA
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Zappylist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
> List"
> <[email protected]>; "electric_vehicles_for_sale Moderator"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 11:49 AM
> Subject: Revived and free batteries?
>
>
> > The rumor of battery reviving in Vancouver is back. Can anyone confirm
> > or
> > debunk this. Maybe someone from Vancouver.
> >
> > http://www.geocities.com/battery_rescue/index.html
> > Lawrence Rhodes
> > Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> > Reedmaker
> > Book 4/5 doubler
> > Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> > Vegetable Oil Car.
> > 415-821-3519
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:08 PM 2/26/2006, you wrote:
On 23 Feb 2006 at 12:11, Eric Poulsen wrote:
> Gasoline as an energy storage medium is vastly superior to batteries.
It may be a silly point, but I'd still disagree with this statement. I
don't think that gasoline should be called an energy storage medium, since
it's not currently practical to store energy in gasoline. Rather, it is a
fuel - an energy ^source^ - and a finite one at that.
A battery is superior to gasoline for ^storing^ energy, but unless it's a
primary cell it's not an energy ^source^.
I realize the practical implications of this - heck, anybody who's been an
EVer for any length of time realizes that his half-ton battery pack holds
about as much energy as a half gallon of gasoline. But technically speaking
it's still more appropriate to compare a battery with hydrogen, which is
also an energy storage medium, not a fuel.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
It's a group, subgroup thing.
All fuels store energy.
Not all energy storage systems are fuels.
It may have happened a very long time ago and man had nothing to do with
the storing of the energy but it is no less stored.
When you get right down to it there is only one source of energy, and that
was the creation of the universe, however it happened, everything since has
just been conversion and storage of energy.
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
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Hi Fortunat,
Your 80 Ohms is much larger than the 10 ohms (according the
schematics) of my car's pre-charge resistor.
I have a 100 Watt wire-wound resistor.
Note that my system runs at 312V, so the
pre-charge actually starts with about 35A in my car. (10kW!)
There is a 16A fuse inline with the resistor, though
I doubt that it will open fast enough to protect the resistor.
I think your 80 Ohms is much safer and 50 Watts should
be large enough if the power is falling off quickly enough
and your pack voltage is much lower.
You may want to try a 0.5Amp slow blow fuse for DC.
If this fails after a couple of pre-charges, then you can try
a little higher, but do stay below 0.8A or the fuse won't
blow fast enough to protect the resistor.
At 2x current it takes an eternity to open a fuse and your peak
current should be only 1.5A at 120V (Is that your pack voltage?)
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Fortunat Mueller
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 7:27 AM
To: [email protected]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: precharge circuit
Thanks roger.
the precharge resistor I have is 80 ohm, 50 W
resistor. Since the power dissipated falls off
quickly, do you think this would suffice ?
what about the peak current the controller sees, would
the 80 ohm resistor defeat the purpose of precharging
? should i just use whatever curtis reccomends ?
as for fusing, i will look for a smaller fuse (that is
size more appropriately for the resistor.
thanks for the advice.
~fortunat
--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Fortunat Mueller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > 1- is 80 ohms a reasonable value ?
>
> That depends on its power rating. Curtis recommends
> a 750R 10W resistor
> for the 1221C and a 620R 10W for the 1221B-6x. 80R
> will give you a
> *much* faster precharge at the expense of much
> higher peak current.
> With a 120V pack, the initial inrush current would
> be 1.5A, which
> results in 180W of dissipation in the resistor (if
> sustained). Of
> course, the current decays exponentially as the caps
> charge, so it falls
> off fast, but you still need a beefy enough resistor
> that it doesn't
> self-destruct immediately.
>
> > 2- is it ok for me to leave this precharge circuit
> > 'on' all the time when the key is on ? it will be
> in
> > parallel with the closed secondary contactor
> whenever
> > I am on the gas, and when I get off the gas, the
> > contactor will open and the precharge will 'hold'
> the
> > precharge in the controller.
> > I figure if something happens to the controller to
> > make it fail ON, i will lift off the gas, the
> > secondary contactor will open and then the
> precharge
> > fuse will blow quickly if asked to pass hundreds
> of
> > amps.
>
> Sounds reasonable. It think you definitely do want
> the precharge relay
> to remain closed whenever the key is on to keep the
> caps charged even
> when the secondary contactor opens. The 4.5A fuse
> may be a bit on the
> high side. It will certainly blow if the controller
> tries to draw any
> real current with your foot off the throttle,
> however, given that your
> peak precharge current is only 1.5A and even that
> could result in 180W
> dissipation in the precharge resistor if the
> controller caps fail to
> precharge, I'd prefer a lower rated fuse (something
> more like 0.5-1A).
> You may want to ensure the resistor is mounted where
> it cannot set
> anything on fire should the controller fail to
> precharge in a reasonable
> time, and realise that it is highly probable that in
> the event of a
> precharge failure the resistor may open before the
> fuse... will it break
> your pack voltage or not?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
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