EV Digest 5216
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: V2G, vehicle to grid - fantastic concept
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Battery powered Trains, and hybrids
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: Battery charging in only 5 minutes - OT
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: V2G, vehicle to grid - fantastic concept
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) GE EV?
by Carl Clifford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: GE EV?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Charcoal fuel cell
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: V2G, vehicle to grid - fantastic concept
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Small Bad Dumb Charger
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: It's the energy density problem
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: It's the energy density problem
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Charcoal fuel cell
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: V2G, vehicle to grid - fantastic concept
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Portland Rod & Custom Show, the Wayland Report (pt. 1)
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Simple pages made easy by Google.
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: V2G, vehicle to grid - fantastic concept
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: V2G, vehicle to grid - fantastic concept
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) EV Stuff For Sale Below Cost
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: V2G, vehicle to grid - fantastic concept
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Emeter voltage prescaler - howto
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Revived and free batteries?
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Charcoal fuel cell
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Paging Bruce Parmenter
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: V2G, vehicle to grid - fantastic concept
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
25) RE: E-Meter confusion
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Ok to elaborate, here are the problems I see with this concept:
It depends on a number of assumptions:
1. Huge number of EVs,
2. These EVs will have much larger packs than current EVs
(Most EVs today don't carry 20kwh TOTAL energy, let alone extra energy)
3. The consumers and power company are willing to pay the extra bucks for
V2G chargers and meters.
4. The consumers are willing to replace their batteries more frequently
due to the higher DOD.
5. The difference in Peak and Off-Peak costs are enough to justify #3 & #4.
If #5 is true, then that means that the power company could buy batteries
and charger/inverters in bulk (and therefor at a fraction of the consumer
costs) and set up their own battery storage facilities and run it at a
lower cost than the consumers, therefor eliminating enough of the
difference in peak/off-peak costs to make it no longer practical for
consumer V2G systems.
Do you see what I'm saying? Anything that I can do on a small scale and
make money, the power company can do on a larger scale, for a lower cost,
and therefor undercut me.
V2G systems are useless today and by the time technology advances to the
point where they would be useful, they won't be needed anymore.
> Since the peak demand occurs between 4 and 6 PM according
> some of the graphs I saw, you need to look at the *peak*
> price, that is when you are selling from vehicle to grid.
>
> To answer another myth: no, you are not draining your pack
> empty just before you need to drive home.
> All V2G proposals have a user configurable limit that
> indicates the minimum energy that will be left in the
> batteries after it has sold electricity to the grid.
> Before and right after selling, it may actually start
> recharging but worst case you unplug your EV just at
> the end of the selling period, so you can guarantee
> you can drive home by setting the limit to the
> proper level.
> Many people have 10 or 20 kWh more in their batteries
> than they need to get home.
>
> If you want to sell that on a daily basis, depends on
> the price you are getting for it.
> My gut feeling says it is not feasible at this moment
> simply because there are too few EVs,
> chargers are not setup for V2G,
> vehicles are not setup for V2G,
> pricing is not covering real costs (pack replacement)
> and not everyone would like to gamble with the power
> in their batteries if they can still make home and
> are not able to run an extra errand, so it also
> means an additional inconvenience.
>
> I agree that the idea and concept are great,
> just like bulk-charging stations are a great idea.
> Now we need a good sized clout to implement it and
> address the above issues.
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Joe Smalley
> Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 9:27 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: V2G, vehicle to grid - fantastic concept
>
>
> I see $0.05 a kWh on the summer schedule from midnight to 7 am.
>
> I did not see any references to the $0.45 price.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 12:58 AM
> Subject: RE: V2G, vehicle to grid - fantastic concept
>
>
>> How about:
>> If you're cycling your pack twice as often, it lasts half as long?
>> How much does a second pack cost, just to cover the extra cycle per day?
>>
>> I agree that in peak demand, nobody (on TOU) is paying $1, but
>> it certainly is not $0.09 either.
>> http://www.pge.com/about_us/environment/electric_vehicles/index.html
>> Towards the bottom, you will see summer peak at 28c/kWh.
>> Note that this is for "Baseline" use.
>> When you use more than 200% of average in summer, you are
>> talking about a price over 45c/kWh.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The original People Mover was in Disneyland and was powered by motorized wheels
in the track. The People Mover in the Magic Kingdom in DisneyWorld and The
Houston airport have linear induction motors.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 10:40:35 -0600
Subject: Re: Battery powered Trains, and hybrids
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> Why not replace the live 3rd rail with a high frequency half of a
> inductive transformer, the train would contain the other half of the
> coil and the high freq would keep things small.
This has been done. There are several "people mover" vehicles in service
(Disneyland and the Dallas/Ft.Worth airports as I recall are two big
examples). Basically you have an "unrolled" induction motor, with the
"rotor" a long bar attached to the vehicle, and the "stator" attached to
the floor.
You can also do maglev (magnetic levitation) this way, so the train
floats on a magnetic field and doesn't need any wheels. At very high
speeds, maglev uses less power than wheels.
But, a direct electrical connection is more effiecient. Certainly a lot
simpler, too!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
STEVE CLUNN wrote:
... you are in for some hart brake.
Sorry, couldn't resist: Is that the effect where Lee Hart kindly points
out the various flaws in a nutty idea of yours, thus stopping you in
your tracks?
Steve, you definitely have a subconscious talent for puns!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's a question. Why isn't everyone installing battery packs in their
basement and buying at night and selling in the day?
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know anything about this EV? Any idea what to look under to search
for specs?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4616581676
Thanks
Carl Clifford
Denver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Clifford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 12:28 PM
Subject: GE EV?
> Does anyone know anything about this EV? Any idea what to look under to
search for specs?
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4616581676
>
> Thanks
>
> Carl Clifford
> Denver
>
Hi Carl;
Looks like a GE Marketeer, a small car(glorifyed golfcart) offered up by
General Electric in the early 70's. It would be a NEV as I don't think it
went very fast? Good museum type thing, to have along with your Citi-car.
Show people how far we have come thing.
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> account the global impact: First of all, it takes trees and land. With
> more and more trees being cut down is it really a renewable resource the
No, actually it does NOT "require" any trees. If you read the article
you'll see that they are also working on a flash carbonizer that can turn
things like grass and macadamia nut shells into charcoal. So you can get
charcoal from existing waste biomass.
It doesn't say it, but I'd bet the fuel cell has a solid waste product
also that can probably be turned into a nice fertilizer.
> a zero balance CO2, it does **nothing** to help clean up the current mess.
So what? Are you claiming that any technology that does clean up messes
made by someone else isn't viable?
Did they pass a law I'm not aware of that requires that all new energy
solutions also clean up the environment?
> fuel it like a hydrogen fuel cell" - consider that it does take a lot of
> energy to create the charcoal in the first place.
Maybe it does, maybe not. Charcoal made the old fashion way didn't
require any energy besides what was already stored in the material being
converted to charcoal.
The article does state that efficiency is currently a problem. Maybe they
can solve it, maybe not. That's what research is all about.
It's an intrigueing project, I'm curious to see where they go with it.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: V2G, vehicle to grid - fantastic concept
> Here's a question. Why isn't everyone installing battery packs in their
> basement and buying at night and selling in the day?
>
> -Mike
>
Hi Mike;
Good point, but would ya WANT a basement fill of batteries? IF you are
lucky to be able top HAVE a basement. FLA an' CA don't apply here!I don't
think most power Co's give ya a night break? They sure as hell DON'T here in
CT.Show of hands WHO get off peak rates? Just for fun.
Seeya
Bob, Hell CLand P in CT won't EVen PAY you their outragious rate when
they buyback power!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, I appreciate this, but isn't welding even one edge
and thus shorting electrically makes them look (at least
near the weld) as solid chunk of iron? This is different
from having weld seam around forming a short turn - of course
*that* is avoided.
Basically if I understand you you're saying that seam only
along one edge does not electrically impact performance.
Is that right?
Victor
Joe Smalley wrote:
Welding only the outside edge of the laminations only shorts the outer edges
together. There is no weld in the inner edge of the laminations therefore
there is no shorted turn. It is only a U shaped conductor. Not an entire
turn.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: Small Bad Dumb Charger
Lee Hart wrote:
...
The most difficult are welded together (mainly
used for very cheap transformers); you have to grind off the welds to
get them apart.
The laminations are coated with a thin layer of varnish. This keeps them
from rusting, and also provides electrical insulation between them.
Without this varnish, they would short circuit to each other, and act
like a solid lump of iron. This looks like a shorted turn, and greatly
lowers efficiency.
Welding laminations together in fact does short them electrically
at (near) the weld seam. While outcome of such a construction is
not as bad as a lump chunk of iron, it must be lowering efficiency
even worse. What surprises me even relatively large transformers
have this. Sure large transformer can be made cheaply too :-)
In my previous life I took apart countless amount of transformers
with wedging a blade between laminations. Twisting the core slightly
usually frees all of them at once (from one end). The reason doing this
was because new cores and magnet wire were not easily available.
These days very few bother since custom transformers can be easily
ordered and also people's time doing it worth far more than transformer
itself. Use to be not the case at least for me. Great educational
thing too.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andre, I think David meant that gasoline is not a "container",
you cannot store in it desired amount of joules as you can with batteries.
Example: I have excessive fixed amount of energy on my back yard.
Say, 1 ton chunk of metal hanging on 10 meters height.
I want to store it away.
Batteries: I connect pulley to that chunk and have it run
a generator while it lowers so store resulting energy in
the battery-container.
Explain to me how can I store that form (or *any* form for
that matter) of energy in gasoline.
Gasoline isn't "rechargeable", it can only release energy
it possess as refined, never store it from outside sources
as battery can.
Victor
Andre' Blanchard wrote:
At 09:08 PM 2/26/2006, you wrote:
On 23 Feb 2006 at 12:11, Eric Poulsen wrote:
> Gasoline as an energy storage medium is vastly superior to batteries.
It may be a silly point, but I'd still disagree with this statement. I
don't think that gasoline should be called an energy storage medium,
since
it's not currently practical to store energy in gasoline. Rather, it
is a
fuel - an energy ^source^ - and a finite one at that.
A battery is superior to gasoline for ^storing^ energy, but unless it's a
primary cell it's not an energy ^source^.
I realize the practical implications of this - heck, anybody who's
been an
EVer for any length of time realizes that his half-ton battery pack holds
about as much energy as a half gallon of gasoline. But technically
speaking
it's still more appropriate to compare a battery with hydrogen, which is
also an energy storage medium, not a fuel.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
It's a group, subgroup thing.
All fuels store energy.
Not all energy storage systems are fuels.
It may have happened a very long time ago and man had nothing to do with
the storing of the energy but it is no less stored.
When you get right down to it there is only one source of energy, and
that was the creation of the universe, however it happened, everything
since has just been conversion and storage of energy.
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andre, I think David meant that gasoline is not a "container",
you cannot store in it desired amount of joules as you can with batteries.
Example: I have excessive fixed amount of energy on my back yard.
Say, 1 ton chunk of metal hanging on 10 meters height.
I want to store it away.
Batteries: I connect pulley to that chunk and have it run
a generator while it lowers so store resulting energy in
the battery-container.
Explain to me how can I store that form (or *any* form for
that matter) of energy in gasoline.
Gasoline isn't "rechargeable", it can only release energy
it possess as refined, never store it from outside sources
as a battery can.
Victor
Andre' Blanchard wrote:
At 09:08 PM 2/26/2006, you wrote:
On 23 Feb 2006 at 12:11, Eric Poulsen wrote:
> Gasoline as an energy storage medium is vastly superior to batteries.
It may be a silly point, but I'd still disagree with this statement. I
don't think that gasoline should be called an energy storage medium,
since
it's not currently practical to store energy in gasoline. Rather, it
is a
fuel - an energy ^source^ - and a finite one at that.
A battery is superior to gasoline for ^storing^ energy, but unless it's a
primary cell it's not an energy ^source^.
I realize the practical implications of this - heck, anybody who's
been an
EVer for any length of time realizes that his half-ton battery pack holds
about as much energy as a half gallon of gasoline. But technically
speaking
it's still more appropriate to compare a battery with hydrogen, which is
also an energy storage medium, not a fuel.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
It's a group, subgroup thing.
All fuels store energy.
Not all energy storage systems are fuels.
It may have happened a very long time ago and man had nothing to do with
the storing of the energy but it is no less stored.
When you get right down to it there is only one source of energy, and
that was the creation of the universe, however it happened, everything
since has just been conversion and storage of energy.
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2/27/06, Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 2) "and there's not the complication of relying on another form of power
> to
> fuel it like a hydrogen fuel cell" - consider that it does take a lot of
> energy to create the charcoal in the first place.
It also takes something like 30% of the energy in Hyrdogen just to compress
it.
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To my knowledge I don't get an off peak rate.
-Mike
On 2/27/06, Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> CT.Show of hands WHO get off peak rates? Just for fun.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Great REPORT John.. Did any one take any digi-pictures worth posting
to a web site.. for those of us who could not make the show ??
PS: did you hook up with Terry Parkhurst, to do a feature story on your
Datsuns in the Datsun/Nissan Magazine ??
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If anyone has ever wanted to make a page for there car but thought it was
too hard, or wasn't satisfied by the look of the end result you might be
interested in the news Google Pages service. (http://pages.google.com).
Drag and drop, WYSIWYG, and 100MB of storage for pictures and videos.
I made this in about 5 minutes.
http://michael.ellis.googlepages.com/trialpage
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We can get off-peak in Utah, but you have to sign up for it, and there's a
catch. When they lower your off-peak rate, they also raise your peak rate.
Then, on any given day, if you use more than twice (I think) as much
off-peak as peak, you've saved money. Otherwise, you've lost money for that
day.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Ellis
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 11:51 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: V2G, vehicle to grid - fantastic concept
To my knowledge I don't get an off peak rate.
-Mike
On 2/27/06, Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> CT.Show of hands WHO get off peak rates? Just for fun.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, where I live I can pay an extra $10 a month and get a TOU meter.
Then my off-peak rate drops about $0.035/kw and peak rate goes up
$0.045/kw.
So there is a difference of about $0.08/kw between peak and off-peak.
Peak hours only last 7-8 hours a day, depending on the time of year.
Just to break even on the TOU meter I'd need to sell back 500 watts per
hour during peak hours.
Let's say I bought a 2kw grid-tie inverter with charging capability and
let's say I only pay $2500 for it. Assume it has a projected lifespan of
5 years. To break even on the cost of the inverter I need to sell 2500
watts per hour...umm, it's only a 2000 watt inverter.
Maybe I can buy a bigger inverter, but I haven't even figured in the cost
of batteries yet.
I'm not going to bother figuring it out, but I'm guessing you'd need a 10
or 20kw inverter and a garage full of batteries just to break even (which
is kinda pointless)
> Here's a question. Why isn't everyone installing battery packs in their
> basement and buying at night and selling in the day?
>
> -Mike
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folks
I am liquidating a few things below cost. No checks, credit cards, or
shipping. Cash only. Will deliver or meet you within reason around the
Olympia/Seattle WA area.
If you want it all, we can make a better deal. Thanks for looking :^D
Email- roylemeur _at_ hotmail _dot_ com
QuickCable HexCrimp 26" Heavy Duty Crimper. 8 gauge to 6/0. Gently used,
like new in box. The "best" tool for EV battery cables. New $254.64, asking
$170.00-
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=&product_id=1870
Toro Cordless Recycler Battery-Operated Electric Mower. It is in excellent,
barely used condition. Retailed for well over $200.00 new, asking $75.00-
http://westernmower.com/backup/toro/torocordedcordlesselectricsrecycler.htm
"Next" Avalon 26" Comfort Bike. In great condition. I was going to electrify
this. Black and silver w/red trim. Grey seat and grey tires. Fully
suspended. New cost $98.84, asking $60.00-
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2061606
New 12V 7AH AGM batteries for scooters and bikes. Normally $15.00 ea., If
you take all four, you can have them for $7.50 ea. Similar to these-
http://www.cloudelectric.com/item.jhtml?UCIDs=866086%7C1224338&PRID=1385270
Magura twist-grip throttle, new, never installed, with matching grip.
Normally $49.95, asking $35.00-
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=&product_id=2162
SRE 24-36V 100A motor controller. New, never installed.
I have one of these in my mini-ebike and it works great.
Normally $139.95, asking $100.00-
http://www.cloudelectric.com/item.jhtml?UCIDs=866086%7C1321277&PRID=1495556
I also have a couple of 24V bike/scooter chargers, and a small pile of
electric scooters in various stages of disrepair including an original Zappy
available.
...
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob,
Local PG&E even says it is *mandatory* to get a TOU meter
when you own and recharge an EV, that's why there is no
installation fee to swap a "flat fee" meter to TOU.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Bob Rice
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 9:54 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: V2G, vehicle to grid - fantastic concept
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: V2G, vehicle to grid - fantastic concept
> Here's a question. Why isn't everyone installing battery packs in their
> basement and buying at night and selling in the day?
>
> -Mike
>
Hi Mike;
Good point, but would ya WANT a basement fill of batteries? IF you are
lucky to be able top HAVE a basement. FLA an' CA don't apply here!I don't
think most power Co's give ya a night break? They sure as hell DON'T here in
CT.Show of hands WHO get off peak rates? Just for fun.
Seeya
Bob, Hell CLand P in CT won't EVen PAY you their outragious rate when
they buyback power!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve,
Correct, a zener diode is a good addition to avoid higher
voltages into the Emeter than it can sustain.
Maximum should be a 50V zener diode.
This will not blow the fuse, but increase the current through
the HV resistor, to drop more voltage if the input goes over
500V (which it better not does, or the HV resistor may get
out of its own spec, when you use a 500V resistor the input
MUST not go over 550V as you are dropping 500V over the
HV resistor and 50V over the zener in parallel with the potmeter)
One correction to me example values:
I noticed that the original prescaler on CafeElectric is barely
above 1 Mohm, so I expect that the Emeter has a lower input impedance
than I thought. This means that you better use a potmeter with a much
higher resistance, or you will never see 1/10 of battery voltage.
I like the idea of showing the pack voltage divided by the number
of batteries (or half the nr in case of 6V batteries) so you get the
same readout as when testing a single 12V battery and car-to-car
readouts can be compared without calculator.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
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-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of STEVE CLUNN
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 4:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Emeter voltage prescaler - howto
Great job , one part I would add , and it won't cost much. a zener 40v diode
and put it between the neg and pos sense , where your middle pot wire goes
into the meter , This would blow the fuse if for any reason the voltage to
the meter went over 40v. Another thing to think about is to set it so it
reads like a single 12v battery , no mater what pack voltage is . This way
when your talking to other people , or driving in other EV's , or other
people driving your ev will know what the meter is saying . This way as the
years go by and you develop a sense of what 11.4 or 10.9 means you can talk
to other people or drive other cars , or change your pack voltage and still
have that same deep sense of what the battery is telling you .
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 3:16 AM
Subject: RE: Emeter voltage prescaler - howto
> NOTE: the following suggests working with high voltages
> and currents that can harm you. Use this for your education
> and know what you are doing, I do not take responsibility
> if you harm yourself or your equipment.
> With that out of the way:
>
> Sensing battery voltage with a meter that has limited
> input range is not difficult at all.
> This is exacly what was done for many years on the
> analog multi-meters.
> Especially if you know the meter's internal resistance,
> then you can compensate for it or use it as part of the
> divider, but without that knowledge you can still allow
> measuring voltages that are much higher than the meter
> was designed for and make an accurate pre-scaler.
>
> This actually works for Emeter, Link 10 and other types such as XMB.
> Only requirement is that the meter allows you to select a pre-scaler
> value, so it will display a measured 50.0V as 500V.
>
> What you need for a 10 times prescaler (500V on a 50V meter):
> Trim-potmeter and HV resistor.
> HV Resistor that is sufficiently capable of taking the full
> pack voltage without burning up or flashover (it must be
> specified to a voltage higher than your pack).
> Trim-potmeter of about 15 to 20% the value of the resistor.
> If your trimpotmeter is lower in resistance, then you can add
> a fixed resistor in series with it of about 10% of the HV resistor.
>
> Example: 820kOhm 1/2Watt HV resistor and 100k trimpotmeter.
>
> You connect the HV resistor to your pack +, the other side goes
> to BOTH the trim-potmeter and the Emeter, Link-10 or whatever
> positive input; the middle (wiper) contact of the potmeter
> connects to the 3rd contact of the potmeter and this also
> goes to the pack - and the negative of the Emeter....
>
> You set the trim-potmeter somewhere in the middle and power
> up the Emeter, link-10... as well as connecting a good
> (high resistance) digital voltmeter (DVM) to your pack,
> note down the pack voltage and then connect it to the
> input of the Emeter,
> then you turn the trim-potmeter up/down until the DVM
> shows exactly 10% of the pack voltage, the Emeter should
> now also read this voltage.
> Your pre-scaler is now ready.
> Make sure everything is well insulated, fused and mounted,
> so you are not creating a hazard. Fuse with a 500V DC
> inline fuse of 1A or less in the wire connecting to the pack +
> or place the HV resistor at the pack +, so everything from
> there is limited to less than 1 mA current.
>
> Success,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Rod Hower
> Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 4:57 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Emeter voltage prescaler
>
>
> Jim,
> That circuit looks familiar, it's inside the Sparrow
> EVCL box (that Otmar originally designed when his
> company was called EVCL, the name stayed with the
> box!)
> The EVCL is a small box that looks for the seatbelt,
> brake pressure sensors and a couple of other things
> to turn on idiot lights on the dash and also to enable
> the motor control.
> Looks like I'm out of luck with the XMB according to
> Xantrex.
> Rod
>
> --- Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> How about this:
>> http://www.cafeelectric.com/temp/Prescaler.GIF
>> It looks familiar, like what I remember Lee posting
>> in his ASCII art.
>> The internal resistance of the meter must form the
>> other half of the
>> voltage divider.
>>
>> I've used the E-Meter and Link-10 which are the
>> same... no clue as to
>> what the XMB is?
>>
>>
>> Rod Hower wrote:
>> > I have the new XMB Xantrex Battery Monitor.
>> > I looked all over for Lee Harts prescaler circuit
>> > (checked archives etc).
>> > I wonder if this would even work with the newer
>> meter?
>> > Has anybody tried there own prescaler with the
>> XMB?
>> > Thanks,
>> > Rod
>> >
>> > --- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>I have a Xantrex 9-35Vdc Emeter that I want to use
>> >>on
>> >>a 12*13= 156Vdc nominal, 215Vdc max during charge
>> >>battery pack on a Sparrow.
>> >>The manual calls out a part # 854-2018-01 voltage
>> >>prescaler but does not mention input voltage.
>> >>I'm guessing the prescaler is just a resistor in
>> >>line
>> >>with the battery + line.
>> >>Any ideas on what I should use for a 156Vdc
>> nominal
>> >>pack?
>> >>Thanks,
>> >>Rod
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jim Coate
>> 1970's Elec-Trak's
>> 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
>> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
>> http://www.eeevee.com
>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In trying to get some "cadmium sulfated"
is JC WHitney's Charge it, the cheapest place?
Thanks
--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There is a maintenance method we used in our battery
> shops in maintaining
> industrial 2 volt cells. Should be call jars not
> cells. We had thousand of
> these jars in our buildings complex used for backup
> emergency power.
>
> The 300 ah jars that are listed in the below article
> is about the same type
> I used in my EV. They had removable tops which the
> top and grids can be
> pull out.
>
> To repair or clean a jar, we first took voltage, a
> specific gravity reading
> of the specific gravity and a load reading of each
> jar. We normally
> discharge the jars down to 1.200 sg before removing
> the grids. Removing the
> tops and grids we put them into a container of
> distill water that was a
> ultrasound type of cleaner.
>
> We than filter the 1.200 sg acid for reused. Note,
> only replace the same
> specific gravity acid with the same sg reading you
> take out.
>
> In some cases in a suspected short cell, we would
> push in new plastic grid
> separators while pushing out the old ones. This
> does two things, it
> eliminates the short and pulls out a lot of
> sulfating that is trap in the
> groves of the separators.
>
> After a cleaning rinse in the distill water, the
> grids was submersed in a
> solution of cadmium sulfated which is to remove any
> traces of sulfating in
> the grids. While its in this solution a slight
> charging is applied.
>
> The jar is then assembled and put in service for
> about another 5 years.
>
> I did this maintenance on three of my jars in my EV
> after about 8 years of
> service. The sg was not coming up which I suspected
> it was either a shorted
> cell or too much sulfating.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ted C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 6:27 PM
> Subject: Re: Revived and free batteries?
>
>
> > I havn't hear anything. But i live two hours north
> of there. A couple of
> > years ago i ran across this article about this
> subject. So i will throw it
> > into the mix. I found it quite interesting.
> >
> > http://www.homepower.com/files/edta.pdf
> >
> >
> > Ted
> > Olympia, WA
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lawrence Rhodes"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Zappylist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Electric
> Vehicle Discussion
> > List"
> > <[email protected]>;
> "electric_vehicles_for_sale Moderator"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 11:49 AM
> > Subject: Revived and free batteries?
> >
> >
> > > The rumor of battery reviving in Vancouver is
> back. Can anyone confirm
> > > or
> > > debunk this. Maybe someone from Vancouver.
> > >
> > >
> http://www.geocities.com/battery_rescue/index.html
> > > Lawrence Rhodes
> > > Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> > > Reedmaker
> > > Book 4/5 doubler
> > > Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> > > Vegetable Oil Car.
> > > 415-821-3519
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Carbon is an interesting alternative to hydrogen for fuel cells.
If interested set your favorite Internet search engine on
"carbon fuel cell" and find more than you probably ever
want to know about the subject. Carbon for fuel cells is much
easier to produce, store and transport than hydrogen.
While on the subject of alternative fuels for fuel cells, methane is
another choice.
Are we off-topic yet?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bruce,
I have been trying to contact you on your normal email
but got no response. Since you did post to this list,
I hope you get this message.
I am sorry to hear about your wet Blazer and other flood
induced damage, so I can imagine you are quite busy.
Since I am in the neighborhood (Sunnyvale) I could be able
to help you and other EV'ers if they need to do a job on
their vehicle and a single car garage for a day or so is
all they need.
Simple things I have done on my car include topping up the
tranny and diff fluids, work on brakes, install batteries,
electrical work in general.
On ICE cars I have replaced radiators and lights and even
installed a new head gasket on my BMW 325i, though that was
not an overnight job.
Helping with a fluid change or a tire rotation is not a
problem. I have a Nema 14-50 (range 240V 50A) hookup and an
extension cord to the driveway, but no outside outlet yet,
that is why my EV still goes into the garage overnight.
I am sure there are many others on this list that have the
skill and place to help each other with these small jobs,
some may have the space to leave the car overnight for the
bigger job like the mechanic you have found, we should
cherish such persons.
On another note,
I like to talk to you about the US Electricar Yahoo group.
You probably know that I own such a car myself:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/694.html
This group is for owners of the USE S-10 and Prizm, but I
heard from several that they have trouble joining it.
and I also had trouble joining, stayed moderated for many
months and recently was (automatically?) de-registered.
This complaint goes back to 2004 according the archive.
I noticed that you stopped posting to this group in 2004
and since then no moderation has been done on it, leading
to a loss of (prospect-)members.
Can you consider appointing a moderator for the group, so
it can be actively managed and we can prevent that owners
of US Electricar vehicles cannot connect, so they give up
on these EVs and we lose audience and possible active EV
promotors? Every EV on the road is a little billboard
with a statement....
You have already received a list of interested people who
can take up moderation from another group member.
Let me know if you want me to resend it to you.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Exactly what I was thinking.
If the payback is $3000 it would completely offset my monthly $60 Com ed
bill (Chicago area Small house) and then some. In addition I could offer up to
70% dod on an inexpensive GC 120 volt pack which should be in the neighborhood
of 16 to 20Kw (depending on Peukert). I would have to keep a little for backup
use in case of power outage. This would be more than most cars would be able to
spare since many are operating at near max range. Cycled every day at 60% or
less the pack would last a several years.
The only reason Com ed might not do it is because economy would dictate a
central location which would require a substation to raise the voltage up to
transmission levels. Large transformers or high ratio buck converters, pick
your costly poison. After all maintanance on a very high voltage pack sounds
difficult if not impossible. A large number of scattered sites could completely
ignore this problem. The pole pigs can handle the task.
Your home pack could also be used as a high current dump pack charged
during off peak hours. It all sounds too good to be true.
I frankly dont really think there is anything in it for Power companies.
Certainly not at the $3000 level.
Rick Miller
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 11:23:01 -0600
Subject: Re: V2G, vehicle to grid - fantastic concept
Here's a question. Why isn't everyone installing battery packs in their
basement and buying at night and selling in the day?
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> use the Kilowatt hour display in the E-meter. It's function
> F03, Turn it on. Now you have a real count of the watts used
> to move y our EV, not some smoothed, ready for the Sailor
> number that the Amphour number really is.
Michela, Rich makes a good point that the kWh display is "real",
however, on discharge the Ah value is also "real". On charge, the Ah
value is modified by the charge efficiency factor (CEF) value. For
instance, if you have a charge efficiency of 90% (CEF=0.90), then on
recharge every Ah put into the battery only registers as 0.9Ah on the Ah
display.
The Peukert value affects the SOC bargraph, and may affect the time
remaining estimate, but does not affect the Ah (or kWh) values.
> Really Want Data??? Hook up the Rs-232 Cable,a nd data
> log the entire data stream from the E-Meter. That will tell
> you exactly what is going on.
Another good point; if you have the RS232 option, then you can capture a
log of the actual current and voltage at 1 second intervals and can plot
the data or compute whatever you wish from it.
One word of caution: while the E-Meter outputs data at 1 second
intervals, it actually reads its inputs much more frequently, and so
does a more accurate job of counting Ah during discharge than you can
based on integrating the current values it reports over time. This is
because the current varies wildly and quite rapidly while driving an EV
and you cannot accurately compute the Ah used based on the 1 second
reporting intervals. In this case the "smoothed, ready for the Sailor
number" *is* better than the raw data! ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
