EV Digest 5234
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV Photo Album Upgrade
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) sorry about the attachments
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: New electric motocross bike by Electricross
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) My Battery Monitor
by Tim Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: My Battery Monitor
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Air Conditioning on 72VDC
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Citicar Specs and FAQ
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Air Conditioning on 72VDC
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV Photo Album Upgrade
by Tom Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: NO ATTACHMENTS PLEASE
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Totally OT but... So you thought you had problems
by "Ted C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: NO ATTACHMENTS PLEASE
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: NO ATTACHMENTS PLEASE
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: New electric motocross bike by Electricross
by "Rolf Gustafsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: NO ATTACHMENTS PLEASE
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: NO ATTACHMENTS PLEASE
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: NO ATTACHMENTS PLEASE
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV Photo Album Upgrade
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV Photo Album Upgrade
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) new "This New Car" Radio Show now on-line
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: NO ATTACHMENTS PLEASE
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
David Dymaxion wrote:
I love the evalbum, it sounds like it is going to get even better.
We aim to serve.
I'd like something that would list data in columns, so multiple
conversions can be compared. Each line could be a conversion, and
each column things like motor, controller, voltage, etc.
I believe that is the plan, but I am not the one writing the code.
I'd vote for columns for 0-60 mph time, 1/4 mile time, 1/4 mile
speed, and top speed (already there). Another handy column would be
"Stripped donor weight." It is fairly easy to get a gasoline car's
weight, but harder to find out what the glider weighs once it is
stripped for conversion.
Stripped donor weight? Does anyone ever know what that is? I know
once I pulled the engine on my Civic it didn't leave the garage until
completed. I doubt most folks would have that info. I think you
could probably work out fairly well what it was by adding up all the
parts and subtracting that from the finished weight. BTW, 20% of the
entries do not have the weight field filled in at all.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm sorry about the attachments and had no idea about the policy. I won't send
anymore.
Best regards,
Mark Freidberg
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Check out the new Drift electric motocross bike by Electricross Inc.
>
>http://www.electricross.com/
>
Don'tcha just love the smell of vaporware in the air? I wonder when
there will be an EV company that puts up a website and sends out press
releases that says "Announcing the Flummoxmobile. In stock and
shipping now."
On the oft-chance that they ever actually make this thing....
Let me get this straight. They're selling a motocross bike, a tool
for plowing through mud and muck and whatnot with an exposed, OPEN
FRAME motor and an exposed controller?
Ya, right. And I have a bridge to sell.....
I'm actually getting a kick out of all these E-TEK-based vaporware
bikes. I have a whole directory full of photos. One or two
"companies" actually made two or three of 'em.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought I would put my battery monitor up for grading with all you EV
experts. See the pictures at this link:
http://home.earthlink.net/~evtkw/
I was inspired to make it after seeing Gordon Stallings system on the net.
Basically it measures voltage on each of my 18 6V batteries, transmits the info
via serial to a cpu behind the dash, then displays the data in bar graph form
(updating the whole graph every .4 sec), decimal form, or sends the data over a
serial link to a computer.
I wish I had left a spot for tapping off of my Shut for current/energy
displays, but oh well. Also, you may laugh at the .01 display resolution, and
rightly so - theoreticaly about .04 error, but it usually measures exactly the
same as my Fluke, so I just left it as is
So what do you think?
Tim Wong
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim, very nice packaging. Do you have any isolation? How do you measure
the voltage on the batteries? (CPU) How do you transmit on the serial
(master-slave?)
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tim Wong
Sent: March 5, 2006 9:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: My Battery Monitor
I thought I would put my battery monitor up for grading with all you EV
experts. See the pictures at this link:
http://home.earthlink.net/~evtkw/
I was inspired to make it after seeing Gordon Stallings system on the net.
Basically it measures voltage on each of my 18 6V batteries, transmits the
info via serial to a cpu behind the dash, then displays the data in bar
graph form (updating the whole graph every .4 sec), decimal form, or sends
the data over a serial link to a computer.
I wish I had left a spot for tapping off of my Shut for current/energy
displays, but oh well. Also, you may laugh at the .01 display resolution,
and rightly so - theoreticaly about .04 error, but it usually measures
exactly the same as my Fluke, so I just left it as is
So what do you think?
Tim Wong
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How are the NEV's being used? If it is slowly throuout the day, I
suppose small rooftop AC used for RV's? + an inverter.
Now if the NEV is being used for trips that total less than an hour,
like a trip to the store, perhaps a well insulated icechest with ice in
it and a 12V blower. To avoid the water mess, I plan on giveing this
idea a try this summer:
12oz plastic coke bottles with just the right amount of water in them
to prevent rupture when frozen. These nice curvy bottles provide the air
space for the fan to blow through, keep the air dryer, and slow the
melting.
The empty chest will be light weight when not in use and when I am
unpluging the charger, I can fill it up. (and stash a diet coke in there
for the ride home)
I could even make a few sets and freeze them in the fridge at work
also and rotate them.
What do you think? I know the racers run 4 hours with an icechest and a
vest with water tubes and the bigger buildings in this town use ice to
time shift their AC.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you are interested, here is the 6/75 version of the CitiCar specs and
FAQ. What a great concept!
http://mysite.verizon.net/resqr3ku/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/citicar1.jpg
http://mysite.verizon.net/resqr3ku/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/citicar2.jpg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a normal window unit installed in the rear window of my camper
van (not related to EV). I believe it's a 6000 BTU. I got it primarily
to cool it off of 110V while parked where there's power but I have a
huge inverter and alternator and tried it to improve the cooling when
driving. That thing takes 70A or so right when it comes on, but as the
temperature differential builds up (hot side hotter and cold side
colder) it gets up to well over 100 amps and even that huge 130A
alternator couldn't keep it up.
And guessing from the outlet temperature and volume, that one is a
fairly low cooling capacity relative to most car A/Cs. Car A/C is
pretty oversized to cool down a car that may be 130F in a short time,
but you may not be that picky.
Someone once pointed out that the Prius uses a compressor with an
electric motor inside it to keep it pumping even when the engine is
off. That does sound useful, but pretty darn expensive to get ahold of.
Danny
Jeff Shanab wrote:
How are the NEV's being used? If it is slowly throuout the day, I
suppose small rooftop AC used for RV's? + an inverter.
Now if the NEV is being used for trips that total less than an hour,
like a trip to the store, perhaps a well insulated icechest with ice in
it and a 12V blower. To avoid the water mess, I plan on giveing this
idea a try this summer:
12oz plastic coke bottles with just the right amount of water in them
to prevent rupture when frozen. These nice curvy bottles provide the air
space for the fan to blow through, keep the air dryer, and slow the
melting.
The empty chest will be light weight when not in use and when I am
unpluging the charger, I can fill it up. (and stash a diet coke in there
for the ride home)
I could even make a few sets and freeze them in the fridge at work
also and rotate them.
What do you think? I know the racers run 4 hours with an icechest and a
vest with water tubes and the bigger buildings in this town use ice to
time shift their AC.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi
I think that some sorts might be nice... A sort by range and cost and
top speed, and type of batterys could be a really usefull when you're
researching!
Tom
-----snip------
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2006 18:10:13 -0600
From: "Joel Hacker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV Photo Album Upgrade
Plain Text Attachment [ Download File | Save to Yahoo! Canada
Briefcase ]
If you are doing a database, then you may want to do
cookies and have each person setup a profile as to what
is imporant for his browser to see in the display.
I enjoy looking at the classifieds and seeing the range
and the top speeds of each car...I don't care that much
about the 1/4 mile run times...but I know that is very
important to many others in this list.
Also, it may be a cool idea to have an email section so
you can sign up to see when items are added to the
classifieds or "wanted" sections...
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
The EV list has a policy prohibiting binary attachments, especially large
ones. This is because we have subscribers in several other countries, and
in some cases they pay by the minute for connect time and/or by the kilobyte
for data transfer. When you send large attachments to the list, you are
literally taking money out of their pockets.
Please post data files on the web and provide a pointer to the file for
those who wish to download it.
Normally attachments are removed by the listserver, but the list's
attachment filter has been down for some time. I'll follow up on this again
with the SJSU folks.
Thanks for your cooperation.
Been crazy busy, but I pulled a late Sunday night and setup an upload
service at evforge.net. Seeing how this has come up on the list lately,
I figure some of you might have a use for this ;)
It's so people can upload files and post the link with their mailing
list submissions (I'm sure y'all don't need an explanation), or whatever
else EV related you want to use it for.
More info here: http://www.evforge.net/news.php?readmore=9
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just have to say that pole right below the bear on the last picture gives
me the willies. At least you have pictures so you don't have to explane much
to the department of fish and wildlife when that rope breaks.
Ted
Olympia, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: Totally OT but... So you thought you had problems
> Thanks John!
>
> I HAVE had problems with squirrls, ask J Wayland about his RACOON
> problems, but that shot takes the cake. My BB gun wouldn't done much for
> BEARS! My feeder wire woulda busted before the bear got any ware NEAR the
> feeder! My squeerls had a system:only ONE shinnied out on the wire. HE'd
> shake down the feeder, for the guyz on the ground or just unhook it and
let
> it drop to the ground for a feeding frenzy of peronna proportions!
>
> BTW was that YOUR feeder<g>!?
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 4:01 PM
> Subject: Totally OT but... So you thought you had problems
>
>
> > with squirrels in your bird feeder....
> >
> > http://www.geekbase.org/squirrelproblem
> >
> > Amazing. Nothing to do with EVs but this is just too sweet not to
> > share.
> >
> > John
> > ---
> > John De Armond
> > See my website for my current email address
> > http://www.johngsbbq.com
> > Cleveland, Occupied TN
> > A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo
> Emerson
> >
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 6 Mar 2006 at 0:24, Stefan Peters wrote:
> Been crazy busy, but I pulled a late Sunday night and setup an upload
> service at evforge.net.
Great idea! My only concern is that it appears to be limited to "members
only."
I'd like to see listers post their material to be shared in a free, open,
public space. Here are some thoughts. I'm sure there are other
possibilities.
= Many ISPs provide personal homepage areas.
= Some of the "hobby hosting" firms make available huge amounts of storage
space for a relative pittance (as little as $2.50 or $5 per month).
= Ad-supported hosts have some annoying limitations, but don't require any
out of pocket investment.
= Such services as yousendit.com are also a possibility.
= Years ago, a list member provided a ftp host, but that seems to have been
down for quite some time. I might be able to provide one with limited space
now, more space later, but maybe someone has such facilities now that he or
she would volunteer for the use of the list.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't mean to be negative; I appreciate the effort that San Jose State
University has donated to the international EV community to provide for
this list and its considerable network traffic. This is no small good
deed.
However, this is NOT rocket science. Decent list software (such as
Mailman) is available, which makes configuration of attachment filters as
simple as point and click (via a web administration interface).
Additionally, it has the built-in capability to scan posts for
attachments, strip them, place the files in the archives, and replace the
attachments in the post with links to where the files are stored. So
people can attach whatever they like and the list doesn't have to include
the attachments themselves with the outgoing posts. Seamless and
relatively idiot-proof.
Again I have great gratitude for the service we've received so far from
the university, but in my opinion our needs have outgrown their
capabilities.
David, can you give a rundown of recent list activity, say for the past
twelve months or so? How much data are we talking about, in total message
data (archive growth), and distribution bandwidth?
--chris
On Mon, March 6, 2006 10:01 am, David Roden said:
> On 6 Mar 2006 at 0:24, Stefan Peters wrote:
>
>> Been crazy busy, but I pulled a late Sunday night and setup an upload
>> service at evforge.net.
>
> Great idea! My only concern is that it appears to be limited to "members
> only."
>
> I'd like to see listers post their material to be shared in a free, open,
> public space. Here are some thoughts. I'm sure there are other
> possibilities.
>
> = Many ISPs provide personal homepage areas.
>
> = Some of the "hobby hosting" firms make available huge amounts of storage
> space for a relative pittance (as little as $2.50 or $5 per month).
>
> = Ad-supported hosts have some annoying limitations, but don't require any
> out of pocket investment.
>
> = Such services as yousendit.com are also a possibility.
>
> = Years ago, a list member provided a ftp host, but that seems to have
> been
> down for quite some time. I might be able to provide one with limited
> space
> now, more space later, but maybe someone has such facilities now that he
> or
> she would volunteer for the use of the list.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think Neal, who started this thread, forgot to mention that he built
the bike and the website.
Regards,
Rolf
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> >Check out the new Drift electric motocross bike by Electricross Inc.
> >
> >http://www.electricross.com/
> >
>
> Don'tcha just love the smell of vaporware in the air? I wonder when
> there will be an EV company that puts up a website and sends out press
> releases that says "Announcing the Flummoxmobile. In stock and
> shipping now."
>
> On the oft-chance that they ever actually make this thing....
>
> Let me get this straight. They're selling a motocross bike, a tool
> for plowing through mud and muck and whatnot with an exposed, OPEN
> FRAME motor and an exposed controller?
>
> Ya, right. And I have a bridge to sell.....
>
> I'm actually getting a kick out of all these E-TEK-based vaporware
> bikes. I have a whole directory full of photos. One or two
> "companies" actually made two or three of 'em.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo
Emerson
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
evforge.net **is** free.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Roden
Sent: March 6, 2006 8:01 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: NO ATTACHMENTS PLEASE
On 6 Mar 2006 at 0:24, Stefan Peters wrote:
> Been crazy busy, but I pulled a late Sunday night and setup an upload
> service at evforge.net.
Great idea! My only concern is that it appears to be limited to "members
only."
I'd like to see listers post their material to be shared in a free, open,
public space. Here are some thoughts. I'm sure there are other
possibilities.
= Many ISPs provide personal homepage areas.
= Some of the "hobby hosting" firms make available huge amounts of storage
space for a relative pittance (as little as $2.50 or $5 per month).
= Ad-supported hosts have some annoying limitations, but don't require any
out of pocket investment.
= Such services as yousendit.com are also a possibility.
= Years ago, a list member provided a ftp host, but that seems to have been
down for quite some time. I might be able to provide one with limited space
now, more space later, but maybe someone has such facilities now that he or
she would volunteer for the use of the list.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Want to
unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or switch to
digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
On 6 Mar 2006 at 0:24, Stefan Peters wrote:
Been crazy busy, but I pulled a late Sunday night and setup an upload
service at evforge.net.
Great idea! My only concern is that it appears to be limited to "members
only."
That is due to the design of the software we are using (PHPFusion)...
This was simply a "mod" that I added to the site.
I'd like to see listers post their material to be shared in a free, open,
public space. Here are some thoughts. I'm sure there are other
possibilities.
That is quite doable - the only concern is to how a person can later
update or delete the files that *they* uploaded, without letting just
anybody who wanders by do the same. I'd be happy to add a sub-domain
(files.evforge.net maybe?) and some scripts if someone has some ideas on
how to do that without the aforementioned problem. When someone uploads
a file, maybe they could assign a "modify code", or something to that
affect?
Just trying to be helpful ;)
--
Stefan T. Peters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Robison wrote:
...
However, this is NOT rocket science. Decent list software (such as
Mailman) is available, which makes configuration of attachment filters as
simple as point and click (via a web administration interface).
Additionally, it has the built-in capability to scan posts for
attachments, strip them, place the files in the archives, and replace the
attachments in the post with links to where the files are stored. So
people can attach whatever they like and the list doesn't have to include
the attachments themselves with the outgoing posts. Seamless and
relatively idiot-proof.
...
I agree that the above would be the best long-term solution. Given how
big the list has grown (which most are proud of pointing out), this
would seem to be a sooner-or-later sorta thing.
--
Stefan T. Peters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One thing I would like to see, is a US/World map of ev locations.
James
On Sun, 2006-03-05 at 17:07 -0600, Mike Chancey wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> As most of you are no doubt aware, I operate a website called the EV
> Photo Album, accessible at http://evalbum.com or
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum The EV Album site is hosted by a
> member of the Austin EV club, Aaron Choate, as a service to the EV
> community. Thanks again Aaron!
>
> I can't remember exact when I originally created the Album, probably
> in late 1998 or early 1999. At any rate, from its tiny beginnings
> back on GeoCities it has expanded into a monster of 850 plus pages of
> HTML and over 6800 images with 705 individual EVs included. Of
> course at this size it is well past the point where I should have
> moved on to more advanced methods than simple HTML. Fortunately,
> Jerry Halstead and Seth Rothenberg have stepped up to help me move
> the Album up out of the dark ages. Seth has pulled the existing data
> from the web and Jerry is building the database and writing the code
> to make it all work. I am almost done scrubbing the data from Seth
> to make it all consistent.
>
> Now, my question is what, as users, would you like to see the EV
> Album do that it doesn't do now? Faster additions? That is in the
> works. More advanced searches, that too, but if you can tell me
> exactly what you want it to do we can make sure it does that, if
> possible. So, what do you want?
>
> For those of you who have an Album page already and want to make an
> update, if you could hold off for a bit while we get this conversion
> worked out, then we will only have to fix it once and you will only
> have to review it once. I am still adding pages at this point,
> hopefully that won't be affected.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> Kansas City, Missouri
> Webmaster: EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> Webmaster: Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> See my Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
> In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
> position. (Horace)
>
________________________________________________________________________
James F. Jarrett
Information
Systems Associate
AP Java
Programming
Instructor
Charlotte Country
Day School
1440 Carmel Road
Charlotte, NC
28226
(704)943-4562
Noncombatant: A
dead Quaker.
-- Ambrose Bierce
wiz2.png
Description: PNG image
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3/6/06, James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> One thing I would like to see, is a US/World map of ev locations.
>
Like this one perhaps: http://www.frappr.com/ev
PS, a 20-line signature and a picture of a wizard doesn't go down to
well on the EVDL ;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3/4/06, Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This non-isolated non-issue gets beaten to death about every 3 months
> it seems. Despite all the arm-waving, I have to wonder if anyone has
> even been tingled by a non-isolated charger? I've certainly never
> seen anyone post about it. I'm not talking about being shocked by the
> pack's DC voltage. I'm talking about an AC shock from touching a
> single point on the pack wiring (and ground, of course) when a PFC is
> connected (or a bad boy or any other non-isolated charger.)
I have, about 6 years ago. This was a "variable" bad boy charger from
230V mains to my car's 120V nominal pack. The car has a glass-fibre
body, but the chassis / battery box frames were connected to the mains
earth. I had the lid on the rear battery box open and touched a
single terminal just while flicking some debris away from the top of a
battery - of course I had forgotten it was on charge and dangerous.
I got what felt like quite a nasty buzz in that arm and a stinging
pain in my finger which didn't go away from a while - and of course
shock/scare at being so stupid. I assume that the path was through my
sneakers to earth.
The RCD breaker in the house did *not* trip. I pressed the test
button immediately after this and discovered that the breaker didn't
work - I had last tested it only a few weeks previously while first
using that charger. I don't know whether the shock would have been
less or not at all noticable had it been working.
I'm still here, but I stopped using a non-isolated charger on that
car at once - mainly because it would have been impractical and
expensive to properly insulate or seal off all the DC parts while
charging. I learned to not rely on a single point of protection (the
RCD breaker).
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On 3/4/06, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>> it has the higher but still safe ground current cut off.
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> >> What level is that? I hope it's not 20ma. From what I've read,
> >> anything above 5ma risks heart seizure.
>
> Neon John wrote:
> > It's closer to 50 ma for a normal human...
> > 20 ma isn't pleasant but it won't kill anyone other than perhaps
> > a very elderly person or someone who has heart problems.
> > Five ma for half a cycle, the interval that a GFI must perform in,
> > is felt but not much. More like having someone flip your arm with
> > his finger.
>
> The problem is that there are *large* variations in people's sensitivity
> to shocks. Some can hardly feel a current that produces a drastic, even
> fatal reaction in someone else.
The other concern I have is that why is it necessarily only an 'x'
milliamp current? Just because the breaker trips once the leakage
exceeds 5ma does not guarantee that this is the maximum current that
can flow for the time before it trips - surely that is only limited by
skin resistance and voltage?
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Evan Tuer wrote:
On 3/4/06, Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
This non-isolated non-issue gets beaten to death about every 3 months
it seems. Despite all the arm-waving, I have to wonder if anyone has
even been tingled by a non-isolated charger? I've certainly never
seen anyone post about it. I'm not talking about being shocked by the
pack's DC voltage. I'm talking about an AC shock from touching a
single point on the pack wiring (and ground, of course) when a PFC is
connected (or a bad boy or any other non-isolated charger.)
Yes. I had my Prizm's pack down but not out from under the car awhile
back. It was on charge and I was wrenching and I felt a little tiny
tingle. Which made me wonder what was up.
Turns out there is a very low-leakage current to ground due to the
telemetry circuit. The on-car GFCI did not trip, nor did the house GFCI.
Chris
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--- Begin Message ---
ANOTHER episode of "This New Car" is now on-line (MP3 recording) at
http://www.wicn.org/programs/thisnewcar/schedule.htm
Podcast/RSS support for "This New Car" is available on the same page.
The episodes are 30 minutes each and almost all meat, very little fat compared
to most talk shows. Listen and see if you agree.
The entire schedule of 13 weeks ...
Available ...
#1 Pros and Cons of Hybrid Vehicles
#2 Pros and Cons of Alternative-Energy Vehicles
#3 Hydrogen-combustion vehicles
#4 Fuel-cell vehicles
#5 Electric & plug-in vehicles
#6 New-technology vehicles
#7 What makes a hybrid a hybrid?
#8 Saving fuel with computers
#9 Detroit: Can the Motor City be hybrid-ized?
In the February 26 show, "This New Car" explores Detroit: Can The
Motor City Be Hybrid-ized?. In an article titled "The hot hybrids:
Detroit scoffed, but the gas/electrics are here to stay" in the
November-December 2005 issue of /E: The Environmental Magazine/, Jim
Motavalli opened by firing a salvo at the Motor City. "With $1 billion
in taxpayer money poured into the Partnership for a New Generation of
Vehicles in the 1990s, Detroit's Big Three developed a trio of hybrid
vehicles [with both gasoline and electric drivetrains for maximum fuel
economy]," he wrote. "The resulting prototypes were shown off at auto
shows, but the domestic automakers were steadfast in their refusal to
actually produce these consumer-subsidized eco-cars. Why? No market
for them, they said. Too expensive to build and no chance of making a
profit, they added. What a difference a few years makes! By the
summer of 2005, the Toyota Prius was one of the hottest vehicles on
the market, with almost 10,000 being sold each month, long waiting
lists, and buyers with cash-in-hand willing to pay $3,000 over list
for used examples. ... "
Coming ...
#10 "Green" vehicles: What are they and does the average consumer really care?
#11 What can we with the cars we're now driving to become cleaner?
#12 Is government doing enough to back "green" vehicles?
#13 Does everyone need to own a vehicle?
"This New Car", is a special 13-week edition of "The Business Beat", on
WICN/90.5 FM and at WICN.org in Worcester, MA, the National Public Radio
affiliate serving Central New England.
The experts for this lively, informative discussion on hybrid and
alternative-fuel vehicles are
Jim Dunn the NASA Center for Technology Commercialization
Gilles Labelle the Hybrid Center of Massachusetts at Westboro Toyota
Craig Van Batenburg the Automotive Career Development Center
all in Westboro Massachusetts.
"This New Car" is hosted by Steven Jones-D'Agostino of Best Rate Of Climb in
Worcester, MA, and sponsored exclusively by Westboro Toyota.
--
Mike Bianchi
Foveal Systems
973 822-2085 call to arrange Fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com
http://www.FovealMounts.com
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I'm in a rush so I'll be brief. A couple of times a year, someone (often a
new list member) argues that the EV list is too big to be well supported in
the present format, and/or says a mailing list hasn't enough features.
This person proposes something different or better, some kind of forum or
group or what-have-you. Then we spend a couple of weeks debating it instead
of talking about EVs.
In the end not much happens.
Several alternatives have come on line thanks to a few users who hoped to
attract users from the list to newer, better systems. Many of these are good
resources, but from what I can see, none of these has as many subscribers or
as active a participation as this list does. Some have focused on topics of
narrow interest, and that makes them excellent supplements to the more
general approach here.
Tthis mailing list format may be a bit antiquated, but what we have going
for us here is a very large member base and highly active participation.
Any move to a different system would inevitably cause a loss of membership,
for several reasons. I honestly don't want that and I doubt that others do
either. However, anybody who wants to try developing a better alternative
to this list is welcome to build it and invite our participants to take
part. As mentioned above, several have done so already.
With all due respect to these individuals who put in lots of long hours for
free to help the EV cause, and those who may do so in the future, I'd like
to point out that we can reasonably expect that as an educational
institution SJSU is going to be around for a long, long time. Its support
for the EV mailing list is likely to continue indefinitely.
We all appreciate the individuals' hard work on the alternatives, but I'm
not as confident of their long-term support. Certainly they mean well, but
sometimes individuals lose interest, change jobs, move, endure changes in
economic status, and so forth. That's why we no longer have an ftp site,
for example. SJSU is likely to remain a stable factor through all this.
The EV list has a long history. Don't kid yourself; that makes a
difference. It meets most members' needs and is a low-bandwidth,
universally usable, 100% portable system. That's why we can and do have
members from all walks of life and from many different contries and
cultures. With a few external extensions such as member-supplied web and/or
ftp space, this list works more than adequately.
We have a nice, big, comfortable, slow barge here. It holds lots of people
and gets us where we're going. Sure, a cigarette boat would be faster, but
it wouldn't hold all these people. Some would get left behind, maybe to
drown. Let's not drill holes in the hull.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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