EV Digest 5235
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: NO ATTACHMENTS PLEASE
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) New AC VW Beetle Conversion
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: My Battery Monitor
by Tim Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: New AC VW Beetle Conversion
by "Reinkens, Kirk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: NO ATTACHMENTS PLEASE
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: New AC VW Beetle Conversion
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: NO ATTACHMENTS PLEASE
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: NO ATTACHMENTS PLEASE
by "Shawn Rutledge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: New AC VW Beetle Conversion
by Dave Stensland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: New AC VW Beetle Conversion
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Air Conditioning on 72VDC
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: NO ATTACHMENTS PLEASE
by "Shawn Rutledge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: NO ATTACHMENTS PLEASE
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: NO ATTACHMENTS PLEASE
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV Photo Album Upgrade
by "Dr. Andy Mars" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: NO ATTACHMENTS PLEASE
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: EV Photo Album Upgrade
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: NO ATTACHMENTS PLEASE
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
David, just to correct a misconception.
There are huge forums out there, much bigger than the EVDL both in terms of
numbers of users, mail throughput and geographical dispersion. These forums
support e-mail interface and attachment filtering (for low speed
connections) and a web based interface (as an option for those who want it).
These forums have lived just as long as EVDL and even longer. So the
people on dial-up or remote connections can continue to use **the exact same
email interface** and those of us who want a web based interface with all
the buzzers and bells can use it.
We **can** have a slow large barge and a cigarette boat.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Roden
Sent: March 6, 2006 10:08 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: NO ATTACHMENTS PLEASE
I'm in a rush so I'll be brief. A couple of times a year, someone (often a
new list member) argues that the EV list is too big to be well supported in
the present format, and/or says a mailing list hasn't enough features.
This person proposes something different or better, some kind of forum or
group or what-have-you. Then we spend a couple of weeks debating it instead
of talking about EVs.
In the end not much happens.
Several alternatives have come on line thanks to a few users who hoped to
attract users from the list to newer, better systems. Many of these are good
resources, but from what I can see, none of these has as many subscribers or
as active a participation as this list does. Some have focused on topics of
narrow interest, and that makes them excellent supplements to the more
general approach here.
Tthis mailing list format may be a bit antiquated, but what we have going
for us here is a very large member base and highly active participation.
Any move to a different system would inevitably cause a loss of membership,
for several reasons. I honestly don't want that and I doubt that others do
either. However, anybody who wants to try developing a better alternative
to this list is welcome to build it and invite our participants to take
part. As mentioned above, several have done so already.
With all due respect to these individuals who put in lots of long hours for
free to help the EV cause, and those who may do so in the future, I'd like
to point out that we can reasonably expect that as an educational
institution SJSU is going to be around for a long, long time. Its support
for the EV mailing list is likely to continue indefinitely.
We all appreciate the individuals' hard work on the alternatives, but I'm
not as confident of their long-term support. Certainly they mean well, but
sometimes individuals lose interest, change jobs, move, endure changes in
economic status, and so forth. That's why we no longer have an ftp site,
for example. SJSU is likely to remain a stable factor through all this.
The EV list has a long history. Don't kid yourself; that makes a
difference. It meets most members' needs and is a low-bandwidth,
universally usable, 100% portable system. That's why we can and do have
members from all walks of life and from many different contries and
cultures. With a few external extensions such as member-supplied web and/or
ftp space, this list works more than adequately.
We have a nice, big, comfortable, slow barge here. It holds lots of people
and gets us where we're going. Sure, a cigarette boat would be faster, but
it wouldn't hold all these people. Some would get left behind, maybe to
drown. Let's not drill holes in the hull.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don your web site wonderful and is incredibly detailed and quite interesting
and the VW is one of the nicest conversions I've seen in my life.
Congratulations on an amazing job!
Roderick Wilde
Posted by Don Cameron:
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.2.0/275 - Release Date: 3/6/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmmm.... let's think about Evan's circuit for a minute....
He said it was a bad-boy and the chassis and battery boxes were grounded
(earthed).
Typically the ground path is not broken by the breakers, so the chassis and
battery boxes still would have been grounded even if the GFCI had tripped. The
GFCI is on the input side of the charger, so the output of the charger does not
get broken by the GFCI. So even if the GFCI did trip, so what. The AC is broken
and the charger is no longer putting out. BUT, the pack is still connected and
now being referenced to ground. So there is a potential 120+ VDC connection to
grab you.
Am I wrong?
Stay Charged!
Hump
Original Message -----------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Evan Tuer
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 1:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
On 3/4/06, Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This non-isolated non-issue gets beaten to death about every 3 months
> it seems. Despite all the arm-waving, I have to wonder if anyone has
> even been tingled by a non-isolated charger? I've certainly never
> seen anyone post about it. I'm not talking about being shocked by the
> pack's DC voltage. I'm talking about an AC shock from touching a
> single point on the pack wiring (and ground, of course) when a PFC is
> connected (or a bad boy or any other non-isolated charger.)
I have, about 6 years ago. This was a "variable" bad boy charger from 230V
mains to my car's 120V nominal pack. The car has a glass-fibre body, but
the chassis / battery box frames were connected to the mains earth. I had
the lid on the rear battery box open and touched a single terminal just
while flicking some debris away from the top of a battery - of course I had
forgotten it was on charge and dangerous.
I got what felt like quite a nasty buzz in that arm and a stinging pain in
my finger which didn't go away from a while - and of course shock/scare at
being so stupid. I assume that the path was through my sneakers to earth.
The RCD breaker in the house did *not* trip. I pressed the test button
immediately after this and discovered that the breaker didn't work - I had
last tested it only a few weeks previously while first using that charger.
I don't know whether the shock would have been less or not at all noticable
had it been working.
I'm still here, but I stopped using a non-isolated charger on that car at
once - mainly because it would have been impractical and expensive to
properly insulate or seal off all the DC parts while charging. I learned to
not rely on a single point of protection (the RCD breaker).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks... Each battery is measured by a difference amp with high +/-250V common
mode rejection and 2Mohm input impedance. The output goese to a multiplexing
D/A - this is all located in the battery box. The processor, behind hte dash
board, controls the D/A on the serial bus by seting the desired Mux and
requesting data, which is sent up the serial port, then displayed. The serial
to the pc is just streaming data - i just use Hyperterm to collect it.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Mar 5, 2006 9:34 PM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: RE: My Battery Monitor
>
>Tim, very nice packaging. Do you have any isolation? How do you measure
>the voltage on the batteries? (CPU) How do you transmit on the serial
>(master-slave?)
>
>Don
>
>
>
>
>Victoria, BC, Canada
>
>See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
>www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>Behalf Of Tim Wong
>Sent: March 5, 2006 9:21 PM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: My Battery Monitor
>
>I thought I would put my battery monitor up for grading with all you EV
>experts. See the pictures at this link:
>
>http://home.earthlink.net/~evtkw/
>
>I was inspired to make it after seeing Gordon Stallings system on the net.
>Basically it measures voltage on each of my 18 6V batteries, transmits the
>info via serial to a cpu behind the dash, then displays the data in bar
>graph form (updating the whole graph every .4 sec), decimal form, or sends
>the data over a serial link to a computer.
>
>I wish I had left a spot for tapping off of my Shut for current/energy
>displays, but oh well. Also, you may laugh at the .01 display resolution,
>and rightly so - theoreticaly about .04 error, but it usually measures
>exactly the same as my Fluke, so I just left it as is
>
>So what do you think?
>
>Tim Wong
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From the sidelines... (no EV grin)
I agree 100% with this assessment! I would love to see a brief
description of how it is performing on the road. Could you post a
summary of how it is being used and how it is doing? Is it
meeting/exceeding design expectations? Any system changes that have
been, or are, needed? Etc.
Thanks, Kirk
Spokane, WA
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roderick Wilde
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 10:15 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: New AC VW Beetle Conversion
Don your web site wonderful and is incredibly detailed and quite
interesting
and the VW is one of the nicest conversions I've seen in my life.
Congratulations on an amazing job!
Roderick Wilde
Posted by Don Cameron:
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.2.0/275 - Release Date: 3/6/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is why I used a complete isolation system, for both the DC and AC
circuits.
Only the battery charger case is AC grounded and not the chassic. When the
charger is not in used, it is AC contactor disconnected from the AC input
and DC output from the charger.
If charger is in used, than the battery pack is disconnected from the main
contactor, motor controller and motor.
Charger and battery pack is isolated (insulated) from the frame of the
vehicle.
A GFCI circuit can be further isolated by not installing a ground wire at
all. A two wire GFCI circuit will still work.
Someday when the entire service entrance equipment and all load devices are
constructed in all non-conductor material, including the power line
transformers, we can eliminated the ground wire with the input circuits.
We will only need a ground wire from the lightning arrestors to a ground
rod, and a main breaker with a shut down control that will sense a increase
spike of voltage. We already used these devices in are large pad mounted
transformers and substations.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 12:21 PM
Subject: RE: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
> Hmmm.... let's think about Evan's circuit for a minute....
>
> He said it was a bad-boy and the chassis and battery boxes were grounded
> (earthed).
>
> Typically the ground path is not broken by the breakers, so the chassis
> and battery boxes still would have been grounded even if the GFCI had
> tripped. The GFCI is on the input side of the charger, so the output of
> the charger does not get broken by the GFCI. So even if the GFCI did trip,
> so what. The AC is broken and the charger is no longer putting out. BUT,
> the pack is still connected and now being referenced to ground. So there
> is a potential 120+ VDC connection to grab you.
>
> Am I wrong?
>
>
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
>
>
>
> Original Message -----------------------
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Evan Tuer
> Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 1:10 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
>
> On 3/4/06, Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > This non-isolated non-issue gets beaten to death about every 3 months
> > it seems. Despite all the arm-waving, I have to wonder if anyone has
> > even been tingled by a non-isolated charger? I've certainly never
> > seen anyone post about it. I'm not talking about being shocked by the
> > pack's DC voltage. I'm talking about an AC shock from touching a
> > single point on the pack wiring (and ground, of course) when a PFC is
> > connected (or a bad boy or any other non-isolated charger.)
>
> I have, about 6 years ago. This was a "variable" bad boy charger from
> 230V
> mains to my car's 120V nominal pack. The car has a glass-fibre body, but
> the chassis / battery box frames were connected to the mains earth. I had
> the lid on the rear battery box open and touched a single terminal just
> while flicking some debris away from the top of a battery - of course I
> had
> forgotten it was on charge and dangerous.
> I got what felt like quite a nasty buzz in that arm and a stinging pain
> in
> my finger which didn't go away from a while - and of course shock/scare at
> being so stupid. I assume that the path was through my sneakers to earth.
> The RCD breaker in the house did *not* trip. I pressed the test button
> immediately after this and discovered that the breaker didn't work - I had
> last tested it only a few weeks previously while first using that charger.
> I don't know whether the shock would have been less or not at all
> noticable
> had it been working.
> I'm still here, but I stopped using a non-isolated charger on that car
> at
> once - mainly because it would have been impractical and expensive to
> properly insulate or seal off all the DC parts while charging. I learned
> to
> not rely on a single point of protection (the RCD breaker).
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David,
Very well put.
The list is simple, easy to use, not bandwidth intensive and extremely
reliable. It Just Works (tm), and despite minor problems and
inconveniences, it gets the job done with no cost to any of us, and can
continue to do so until we ask otherwise.
Tim
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 13:08:22 -0500
> Subject: Re: NO ATTACHMENTS PLEASE
>
> Tthis mailing list format may be a bit antiquated, but what we have going
> for us here is a very large member base and highly active participation.
> Any move to a different system would inevitably cause a loss of
> membership,
> for several reasons. I honestly don't want that and I doubt that others
> do
> either. However, anybody who wants to try developing a better
> alternative
> to this list is welcome to build it and invite our participants to take
> part. As mentioned above, several have done so already.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick, thank you very much!
Funny, just yesterday I was perusing the "Gone Postal" van and enjoying all
the high speed research you and your team are putting into drag racing. A
while back I was very interested in the Gage belt drives (for a fixed gear
system) and wondered how well they worked in the real world. After perusing
your videos and web site, all my questions were answered.
Keep up the good work.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roderick Wilde
Sent: March 6, 2006 10:15 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: New AC VW Beetle Conversion
Don your web site wonderful and is incredibly detailed and quite interesting
and the VW is one of the nicest conversions I've seen in my life.
Congratulations on an amazing job!
Roderick Wilde
Posted by Don Cameron:
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.2.0/275 - Release Date: 3/6/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
I'm in a rush so I'll be brief. A couple of times a year, someone (often a
new list member) argues that the EV list is too big to be well supported in
the present format, and/or says a mailing list hasn't enough features.
This person proposes something different or better, some kind of forum or
group or what-have-you. Then we spend a couple of weeks debating it instead
of talking about EVs.
In the end not much happens.
I'm not sure that Chris was suggesting a actual replacement for the
list, just a software upgrade maybe?
Presenting data files during a discussion for the list to access seems
to be the one main rub, yes?
--
Stefan T. Peters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3/6/06, Chris Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> However, this is NOT rocket science. Decent list software (such as
> Mailman) is available, which makes configuration of attachment filters as
Yep sure is. If we can rely on that evforge server to be there for
the long haul, maybe the list could be moved over there.
For images doesn't Google have something?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's a beautiful conversion indeed!
Don can answered some questions last August when I featured his car
here...
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com/display.asp?dismode=article&artid=170
-Dave
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com
On Mar 6, 2006, at 2:44 PM, Reinkens, Kirk wrote:
From the sidelines... (no EV grin)
I agree 100% with this assessment! I would love to see a brief
description of how it is performing on the road. Could you post a
summary of how it is being used and how it is doing? Is it
meeting/exceeding design expectations? Any system changes that have
been, or are, needed? Etc.
Thanks, Kirk
Spokane, WA
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roderick Wilde
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 10:15 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: New AC VW Beetle Conversion
Don your web site wonderful and is incredibly detailed and quite
interesting
and the VW is one of the nicest conversions I've seen in my life.
Congratulations on an amazing job!
Roderick Wilde
Posted by Don Cameron:
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.2.0/275 - Release Date: 3/6/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Kirk, thanks for the kudos.
The car has been on the road for 10 months. I drive it approx 3-5 times per
week. I originally estimated 40km (30mi) to 50% DOD on the batteries.
Turns out that this was correct. However, this is **not** enough. I
thought 40km would suit my needs - no it does not. When I drive around
town, I go about 80km (a big surprise for me).
The car has no clutch and I typically leave it in 2nd gear. It has
reasonable acceleration, not as good as the original, as I would need to use
the gear shift to get better acceleration.
For highway, I start out in 3rd. A bit slow on the take off, but no problem
going 100-120km/h (75mph).
The Siemens system is excellent. No problems with it and very easy to hook
up.
If I was to change things, I would:
1) get a lighter vehicle
2) spend more money on better batteries
3) build my own adapter plate rather than using a very expensive machinist.
Originally I thought this was to be a precision job, it just turned out to
be an expensive job.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Reinkens, Kirk
Sent: March 6, 2006 11:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: New AC VW Beetle Conversion
>From the sidelines... (no EV grin)
I agree 100% with this assessment! I would love to see a brief description
of how it is performing on the road. Could you post a summary of how it is
being used and how it is doing? Is it meeting/exceeding design expectations?
Any system changes that have been, or are, needed? Etc.
Thanks, Kirk
Spokane, WA
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roderick Wilde
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 10:15 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: New AC VW Beetle Conversion
Don your web site wonderful and is incredibly detailed and quite interesting
and the VW is one of the nicest conversions I've seen in my life.
Congratulations on an amazing job!
Roderick Wilde
Posted by Don Cameron:
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.2.0/275 - Release Date: 3/6/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, last summer I tried the ice chest system. The ice chest was sitting
in the bed of my truck, a small bilge pump circulated the water to an oil
cooler that was fitted into the ventilation system.
It worked well. Though it used the ice pretty fast, a few pounds were gone
within half an hour. Another problem was condensation. The water dripped
from my oil cooler (inside the vent.-system) right onto my feet.
It didn't work to my satisfaction with frozen water bottles. The air just
wasn't cold enough.
A friend of mine bought a small a/c system for dog houses. Unfortunately,
his dog soon died and I was able to get this small unit fairly cheap. It
produces approx. 2500 BTU's and runs with 110V ac . I supplied the ac with
an Exceltech 120V DV -> 110V AC inverter. Well, while the unit was humming
happily, the cold air from the unit was _NO_ match for the heat inside the
cab. Some pro from VintageAir told me, that I would have to supply at
least 8000 BTU's to get the cabin cool.
So, I think I will buy a small aftermarket compressor system. The ice
system is sort of nice, but messy and needs a lot of ice. And it sure is
HOT and HUMID down here in South Texas.
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3/6/06, David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Any move to a different system would inevitably cause a loss of membership,
> for several reasons. I honestly don't want that and I doubt that others do
Well to move the list, just take the list of emails from the present
server and import them into a different server. I don't see how that
could possibly cause a loss of membership, because the members don't
have to do anything, other than post to a different address.
This existing software is a hassle with regard to the
subscribe/unsubscribe process. This is why we get "unsubscribe"
messages being sent to the list - it's obviously not straightforward
enough for some people. I think mailman makes this less of a hassle,
right?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3/6/06, Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hmmm.... let's think about Evan's circuit for a minute....
>
> He said it was a bad-boy and the chassis and battery boxes were grounded
> (earthed).
>
> Typically the ground path is not broken by the breakers, so the chassis and
> battery boxes still would have been grounded even if the GFCI had tripped.
> The > GFCI is on the input side of the charger, so the output of the charger
> does not
> get broken by the GFCI. So even if the GFCI did trip, so what. The AC is
> broken
> and the charger is no longer putting out. BUT, the pack is still connected and
> now being referenced to ground. So there is a potential 120+ VDC connection
> to grab you.
>
> Am I wrong?
Hmm, I don't see how the pack would be "referenced" to ground?
I agree, if the breaker had tripped, the earth connection remains,
but both the live and neutral would both be disconnected - so the pack
wouldn't be connected to anything (except me!) in that case.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 6 Mar 2006 at 11:08, Don Cameron wrote:
> There are huge forums out there, much bigger than the EVDL both in terms
> of numbers of users, mail throughput and geographical dispersion ...
> These forums have lived just as long as EVDL and even longer.
Interesting! Can you provide links or other detailed information?
I can't say offhand how many current subscribers the EV list has (though I
have the info somewhere). However, I can tell you that it has a long history,
longer even than the web itself. Clyde Visser started it in 1991. The Mosaic
pre-beta was released in early 1993.
There are surely newsgroups which have been around at least as long, but if
you're talking about web forums, I doubt that any predate the EV list.
As for message traffic, when I first joined 12 years ago, 50 messages was a
big day, and around 20 was more typical. The growth there hasn't been as
dramatic as in other areas, but then EV hobbyists have never been numerous.
I'm no luddite. I have no objections to more modern ways of communicating.
But I certainly wouldn't want to shut down the listserver and push everyone to
something else. If / when this service doesn't serve the members' needs,
they'll naturally gravitate to something that does.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's the question I have...
Does the GFCI break both the hot and neutral? Or just the hot.
I ask this because somewhere along the line, here in the US anyway, the neutral
and ground are bonded together, usually in the main box or at the meter panel.
So if the GFCI does not break the neutral then it is still connected to pack
negative. Which then connects pack negative to the chassis and will result in
any number of voltages available from within the pack to chassis and ground.
Stay Charged!
Hump
Original Message -----------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Evan Tuer
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 3:37 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
On 3/6/06, Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hmmm.... let's think about Evan's circuit for a minute....
>
> He said it was a bad-boy and the chassis and battery boxes were grounded
(earthed).
>
> Typically the ground path is not broken by the breakers, so the
> chassis and battery boxes still would have been grounded even if the
> GFCI had tripped. The > GFCI is on the input side of the charger, so
> the output of the charger does not get broken by the GFCI. So even if
> the GFCI did trip, so what. The AC is broken and the charger is no
> longer putting out. BUT, the pack is still connected and now being
referenced to ground. So there is a potential 120+ VDC connection to grab
you.
>
> Am I wrong?
Hmm, I don't see how the pack would be "referenced" to ground?
I agree, if the breaker had tripped, the earth connection remains, but both
the live and neutral would both be disconnected - so the pack wouldn't be
connected to anything (except me!) in that case.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Indeed, I had no intention of moving the EVDL to some other format.
Mailing lists have all the advantages David mentioned, and they're a lot
more convenient and flexible to deal with than web forums or whatever
else. I'm all for keeping the EVDL exactly as it is -- the mailing list
we're all familiar with.
However, the ongoing problems with the maintenance of the list are
becoming comical. The issue with stripping attachments is not a hard one
to solve. The software I suggested (Mailman) is free software for running
mailing lists like this one (and larger), and the interface is
chimpanzee-simple. If their software can't do it, they need software that
can.
A week would be more than generous to get these kinds of issues sorted
out, and this has been going on for months. In addition the distribution
is slow and inconsistent, and failures are far too frequent. Either their
pipe is too small or there aren't enough hamsters at the wheel.
I think we all appreciate SJSU's efforts but a bent screwdriver, donated
kindly and earnestly though it might have been, is still a bent
screwdriver. You can get by with it, but there should be no hard feelings
when you eventually want to try to find another.
--chris
On Mon, March 6, 2006 2:22 pm, Stefan T. Peters said:
> David Roden wrote:
>> I'm in a rush so I'll be brief. A couple of times a year, someone
>> (often a
>> new list member) argues that the EV list is too big to be well supported
>> in
>> the present format, and/or says a mailing list hasn't enough features.
>> This person proposes something different or better, some kind of forum
>> or
>> group or what-have-you. Then we spend a couple of weeks debating it
>> instead
>> of talking about EVs.
>>
>> In the end not much happens.
>>
>
> I'm not sure that Chris was suggesting a actual replacement for the
> list, just a software upgrade maybe?
>
> Presenting data files during a discussion for the list to access seems
> to be the one main rub, yes?
>
>
> --
>
> Stefan T. Peters
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And wouldn't it be great for such a map to include locations of various
types of public charging availability?
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: EV Photo Album Upgrade
> One thing I would like to see, is a US/World map of ev locations.
>
> James
>
> On Sun, 2006-03-05 at 17:07 -0600, Mike Chancey wrote:
>
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > As most of you are no doubt aware, I operate a website called the EV
> > Photo Album, accessible at http://evalbum.com or
> > http://www.austinev.org/evalbum The EV Album site is hosted by a
> > member of the Austin EV club, Aaron Choate, as a service to the EV
> > community. Thanks again Aaron!
> >
> > I can't remember exact when I originally created the Album, probably
> > in late 1998 or early 1999. At any rate, from its tiny beginnings
> > back on GeoCities it has expanded into a monster of 850 plus pages of
> > HTML and over 6800 images with 705 individual EVs included. Of
> > course at this size it is well past the point where I should have
> > moved on to more advanced methods than simple HTML. Fortunately,
> > Jerry Halstead and Seth Rothenberg have stepped up to help me move
> > the Album up out of the dark ages. Seth has pulled the existing data
> > from the web and Jerry is building the database and writing the code
> > to make it all work. I am almost done scrubbing the data from Seth
> > to make it all consistent.
> >
> > Now, my question is what, as users, would you like to see the EV
> > Album do that it doesn't do now? Faster additions? That is in the
> > works. More advanced searches, that too, but if you can tell me
> > exactly what you want it to do we can make sure it does that, if
> > possible. So, what do you want?
> >
> > For those of you who have an Album page already and want to make an
> > update, if you could hold off for a bit while we get this conversion
> > worked out, then we will only have to fix it once and you will only
> > have to review it once. I am still adding pages at this point,
> > hopefully that won't be affected.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike Chancey,
> > '88 Civic EV
> > Kansas City, Missouri
> > Webmaster: EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> > Webmaster: Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> > See my Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> > Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
> >
> > In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
> > position. (Horace)
> >
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> James F. Jarrett
> Information
> Systems Associate
> AP Java
> Programming
> Instructor
> Charlotte Country
> Day School
> 1440 Carmel Road
> Charlotte, NC
> 28226
> (704)943-4562
>
> Noncombatant: A
> dead Quaker.
> -- Ambrose Bierce
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, March 6, 2006 2:34 pm, Shawn Rutledge said:
> could possibly cause a loss of membership, because the members don't
> have to do anything, other than post to a different address.
The listserver should probably be set up as an alias at evdl.org, so in
the future, so the actual server could be changed at will and the members
would never have to change the address again.
>
> This existing software is a hassle with regard to the
> subscribe/unsubscribe process. This is why we get "unsubscribe"
> messages being sent to the list - it's obviously not straightforward
> enough for some people. I think mailman makes this less of a hassle,
> right?
Mailman can be optionally configured to detect commands sent to the list
instead of the list server, and filter them out. It's not perfect, but
it's better than nothing.
--chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3/6/06, Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That's the question I have...
>
> Does the GFCI break both the hot and neutral? Or just the hot.
>
> I ask this because somewhere along the line, here in the US anyway, the
> neutral and ground are bonded together, usually in the main box or at the
> meter
> panel. So if the GFCI does not break the neutral then it is still connected
> to pack
> negative. Which then connects pack negative to the chassis and will result in
> any number of voltages available from within the pack to chassis and ground.
OK, I see what you mean. Yes, RCD breakers (residual current device)
always switch both poles here, as far as I know. These are the kind
that sense the difference between the live and neutral current, and
enough of a difference causes it to trip.
I'm not sure what the standards and practices are for the US so I'll
leave it for someone qualified to comment. Certainly your scenario
could happen if the breaker only disconnects the "hot" wire.
>
>
>
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
>
>
>
>
>
> Original Message -----------------------
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Evan Tuer
> Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 3:37 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
>
> On 3/6/06, Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hmmm.... let's think about Evan's circuit for a minute....
> >
> > He said it was a bad-boy and the chassis and battery boxes were grounded
> (earthed).
> >
> > Typically the ground path is not broken by the breakers, so the
> > chassis and battery boxes still would have been grounded even if the
> > GFCI had tripped. The > GFCI is on the input side of the charger, so
> > the output of the charger does not get broken by the GFCI. So even if
> > the GFCI did trip, so what. The AC is broken and the charger is no
> > longer putting out. BUT, the pack is still connected and now being
> referenced to ground. So there is a potential 120+ VDC connection to grab
> you.
> >
> > Am I wrong?
>
> Hmm, I don't see how the pack would be "referenced" to ground?
> I agree, if the breaker had tripped, the earth connection remains, but both
> the live and neutral would both be disconnected - so the pack wouldn't be
> connected to anything (except me!) in that case.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I took my 65 Datsun truck, to a quarry when I first bought it and had it
weighed. They didn't even charge me.
Came in at 2180 lbs.
When I get into stripping out components, I am going to buy a cheap 300lb
bathroom scale and weigh each component as I remove it.
This should give me a fairly close glider weight.
When I finish my conversion, I will go back to the quarry for a final
weight.
On another note, if anyone wants to see what their personalized license
plate will look like, I found this cool website:
http://www.acme.com/licensemaker/
I plan on naming my truck WATTSUN, but I can't use that on the plate because
MO limits you to 6 letters or numbers.
I either have to go with WATTSN or WATSUN.
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Chancey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 10:29 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV Photo Album Upgrade
David Dymaxion wrote:
>I love the evalbum, it sounds like it is going to get even better.
We aim to serve.
>I'd like something that would list data in columns, so multiple
>conversions can be compared. Each line could be a conversion, and each
>column things like motor, controller, voltage, etc.
I believe that is the plan, but I am not the one writing the code.
>I'd vote for columns for 0-60 mph time, 1/4 mile time, 1/4 mile speed,
>and top speed (already there). Another handy column would be "Stripped
>donor weight." It is fairly easy to get a gasoline car's weight, but
>harder to find out what the glider weighs once it is stripped for
>conversion.
Stripped donor weight? Does anyone ever know what that is? I know once I
pulled the engine on my Civic it didn't leave the garage until completed. I
doubt most folks would have that info. I think you could probably work out
fairly well what it was by adding up all the parts and subtracting that from
the finished weight. BTW, 20% of the entries do not have the weight field
filled in at all.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com My Electric Car at:
http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org Join the EV List at:
http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme position.
(Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
> I have to wonder if anyone has even been tingled by a non-isolated
> charger?
I have. In the bad old days, I used non-isolated chargers many times.
But I also got "bitten" by them. I finally wised up, and quit using
them.
The last time I recall getting a shock, I was moving from Michigan to
Minnesota. I moved myself, one truck/trailer load at a time. My EV (a
ComutaVan) had to sit until spring, but I had moved its heavy
transformer-isolated Lester charger. So I rigged a bad-boy charger with
a bridge rectifier and light bulb as a series resistor to keep it
charged up while I was away.
When I got back, I started brushing the snow off it, and got a heck of a
jolt! It was plugged into a GFCI outlet, which didn't trip, but the 5ma
or so it let thru was enough of a surprise to make me swear off "hot"
chargers all over again!
The shock was due to the flooded batteries having the usual acid mist
around them to provide a path to ground, and an extension cord whose
ground pin was open.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 6 Mar 2006 14:53:28 -0600 (CST), "Chris Robison"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Indeed, I had no intention of moving the EVDL to some other format.
>Mailing lists have all the advantages David mentioned, and they're a lot
>more convenient and flexible to deal with than web forums or whatever
>else. I'm all for keeping the EVDL exactly as it is -- the mailing list
>we're all familiar with.
Thanks you. The list format is perfect as it is. I personally
despise web forums and won't use them except when I have to have some
info and there is no other way.
>
>However, the ongoing problems with the maintenance of the list are
>becoming comical. The issue with stripping attachments is not a hard one
>to solve. The software I suggested (Mailman) is free software for running
>mailing lists like this one (and larger), and the interface is
>chimpanzee-simple. If their software can't do it, they need software that
>can.
I don't see the problem to be fixed re: attachments. yeah, every so
often someone sends one. Big deal. yeah, I spend whole weekends
every so often on dialup and I don't care for big attachments but I
either sit back and let 'em come through or go to my email server's
web interface and delete 'em. No big deal. Even if it was a big deal
to me personally, I just don't see disrupting things for hundreds of
other people when I'm the odd one out.
>
>A week would be more than generous to get these kinds of issues sorted
>out, and this has been going on for months. In addition the distribution
>is slow and inconsistent, and failures are far too frequent. Either their
>pipe is too small or there aren't enough hamsters at the wheel.
>
>I think we all appreciate SJSU's efforts but a bent screwdriver, donated
>kindly and earnestly though it might have been, is still a bent
>screwdriver. You can get by with it, but there should be no hard feelings
>when you eventually want to try to find another.
what kind of failures are you talking about? Admittedly I do merely
scan the titles of many posts and don't read the bodies but I haven't
noticed any loss in continuity on this end. Perhaps the problems,
when they arise, are on the recipient's POP servers. I know that my
service belches every so often and mail gets dropped. Not enough for
me to do anything about it, though.
If I may suggest a possible solution to the attachment/photos/other
binaries problem, here is what I do with a list that I own. The same
thing is done on some others I'm a member of.
I have a parallel list set up for binaries, a "-bin" list. For this
list it could be called "evdlbin". People who want the binaries can
subscribe and those who don't won't. This method is great for
transient items ("look what I did" or "what might be wrong with this"
type things.) and stuff for which dumping it onto a website or photo
server and posting a link is too much work. Besides, especially when
I'm on dial-up, I'd rather find the image sitting in my in-box than
having to go out and get it.
What most people do is post a message to the main list announcing that
they're posting a photo or whatever to the -bin list. That reminds
folks who have the -bin material go to another mailbox to go and look.
I use yahoo for my -bin list. It is fast and can handle the high
volume. If you subscribe as a non-HTML reader then the obnoxious ads
don't get sent.
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
