EV digest 5250

Mon, 13 Mar 2006 14:47:20 -0800 

                            EV Digest 5250

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Parallel Charging
        by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Appropriate gauges for monitoring batteries?
        by Jacob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Appropriate gauges for monitoring batteries?
        by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Titling EV issue
        by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Appropriate gauges for monitoring batteries?
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Appropriate gauges for monitoring batteries?
        by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: Titling EV issue
        by "Dr. Andy Mars" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) RE: Titling EV issue
        by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) RE: Titling EV issue
        by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Forbidden Cars
        by Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) remove
        by "Gabriel Alarcon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Titling EV issue
        by "Brian M. Sutin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) High performance couplers
        by DM3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: High performance couplers
        by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: High performance couplers
        by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: GFCI again (Was: Re: Charging outlet - what is common?)
        by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: Forbidden Cars
        by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) High performance couplers (and White Zombie mods)
        by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Electric motor bike 144 volts or 72 volts??
        by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: Forbidden Cars
        by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: Better to Run Down or Better to Keep Charging as Opportunities Arise  ?
        by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Re: Forbidden Cars
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Re: GFCI again
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Re: Better to Run Down or Better to Keep Charging as Opportunities Arise  ?
        by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) Re: Was: article: EEStor Capacitors- "This could change everything"More 
Stuff.
        by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 26) Re: Was: article: EEStor Capacitors- "This could change everything"More 
 Stuff.
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 27) RE: Forbidden Cars
        by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message --- 
Bill,
That should work (and the buddy cells with a single BMS module for each pair also, despite TS comments to me). The biggest risk may be the 50 Amps charging capability if the cells are not balanced. Better make sure that the charger cutback works well. The under voltage protection is important to prevent damage. 

Doug
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 12:04 AM
Subject: RE: Parallel Charging



All right, guys, how about this, then:
I also have a non-isolated charger that can put out 20A. At charging time, 
I disconnect the two strings and charge the 200Ah cells with the three
isolated chargers at 50A, and the 90Ah cells with the non-isolated charger
at 15A. Both strings should take about the same amount of time to charge.
And since I've installed clampers on each of the cells, they should all be
at around 4.25V at the end of charging, so the two strings should be within a few tenths of a volt OCV of each other. At that point I connect them back together, and they equalize that small voltage, probably without too much of 
a current inrush between them.

Would that work?

Thanks again.

Bill Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Doug Hartley
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 9:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Parallel Charging

Bill, Victor,

This is what I did with 200AH and 100 A-h cells.  It would seem that with
the wide and relatively linear voltage change with state of charge, they
would share well according to their capacity.  The voltage clampers would
make sure that no cell saw too high a voltage and got damaged from that.

However, when I complained to Thunder Sky last year about the big drop in
capacity I have already, they blamed it on having the 2 different size cells 

in parallel.  I asked for an explanation and emailed  back and forth a few
times about that, but still couldn't see their explanation as being valid.
They hadn't said any warning about that when I metioned paralleling the
cells to Brendan early on.
I think that my last 28 100 A-hr cells from November 2004, that I use with 

the 8 DCS-75 AGM batteries in the hatchback, are better quality.  I also
bought the Stybrook cell monitoring modules to have low voltage protection
as well as over-voltage.  I have installed them and am about to wire the
outputs so I will shut off the lithium pack contactor in case of an over or 
under-voltage condition on 1 or more cells.

Best Regards,

Doug

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Hi gang, I have two EV trucks, both with volt and amp meters, but neither
with other gauges such as "State of charge" or amp hr meters. I don't
understand which would be better for both protecting my battery life, and
for knowing available range left in batteries. Should I get both, or is one
by itself adequate? I have a Solectria E-10 276V w/AC motors, and a 120V DC
conversion S-15 GMC. Please advise.

Thanks...Jacob Harris

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
For better life i would say individual monitoring !
a simple low voltage warning indicator on each battery (with coresponding
red LED on dashboard) is the minimum...

If you want to make this with KIS method you can use a standard low voltage
detection circuit acting a buzzer, inexpensive and secure because no high
voltage wiring to deal with.
It will not tell you simply which battery is tired though...

For max life i would say a Lee Hart battery balancer system.

For knowing range left: an Emeter.

Note than you are talking about two differents EV tools and for the moment i
don't heard about both in the same "simply adaptable to our EV" system...
Lee are you listening ? is the balancer V2 using a LCD ?
:^)

cordialement,
Philippe

Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
 http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jacob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 7:26 PM
Subject: Appropriate gauges for monitoring batteries?


> Hi gang, I have two EV trucks, both with volt and amp meters, but neither
> with other gauges such as "State of charge" or amp hr meters. I don't
> understand which would be better for both protecting my battery life, and
> for knowing available range left in batteries. Should I get both, or is
one
> by itself adequate? I have a Solectria E-10 276V w/AC motors, and a 120V
DC
> conversion S-15 GMC. Please advise.
>
> Thanks...Jacob Harris
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From my understanding, it's a smog referee that should sign off on a change in propulsion. It's nice to know that the DMV will accept it if an officer 
notes it; it may be a matter of just finding a more cooperative officer.

Tim


From: "Brian M. Sutin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: March 11, 2006 9:47:55 PM PST
To: EV List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Titling EV issue
When I titled my EV, the policeman refused to note down that it was electric. He said that this was not his job. At the DMV, they just believed me that it was electric and gave me a no-smog title. I also got the ZEV parking sticker without showing proof. Sadly, the California freeway lane sticker requires 
an inspection.

Brian

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Philippe Borges wrote:
> For better life I would say individual monitoring!

Monitoring helps you know what is happening. But it doesn't *do*
anything about the problem -- it depends on YOU to take action!

> A simple low voltage warning indicator on each battery (with
> coresponding red LED on dashboard) is the minimum.

The simplest "idiot light" is probably my Batt-Bridge circuit. It's just
three LEDs and two resistors for the entire pack. It lights when the
first battery in a series string goes dead.

> For max life I would say a Lee Hart battery balancer system.

My balancer (or any other) is designed to take the next step. A) detect
the problem, and B) take corrective action without depending on the
driver.

> Lee, are you listening? is the balancer V2 using a LCD?

My balancer just has a serial output, which you can connect to whatever
display device you like. I use a vacuum fluorescent 16-character x 2
line display. The new version still has this serial interface, but it
also has my EVILbus hardware interface, so it can (if we ever write the
software) talk to other devices such as Otmar's controller and Rudman's
regulators.
-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Hello Jacob,

A battery monitor unit such as Xantrex Link 10 will display state-of-charge, 
battery voltage, battery ampere, amp hours removed from, or put into your 
battery or display in kilowatt hours in the Ah mode, battery temperature 
with the optional temperature sensor, time of operation remaining until 
recharging is required.

This meter monitors the rate of charge which the meters count back up during 
charging. It normally returns 10 amp hour to store 9 ah in the battery.

The Puekert's exponent is program into this meter, which is the value that 
the battery drops under load.

It has a low battery alarm which will indicated at the predetermined depth 
of charge that you input.

If you install on a battery pack that is over 50 volts, then you need a 
Prescaler for that range of battery pack voltage.  I have 180 volt pack, and 
I am using Xantrex prescaler that has a range of 0 to 499 volts.  This one 
has a DC-DC 12 volt isolation circuit built into it which you take off a 12 
source, either a 12 volt battery or a DC-DC 12 volt converter which is used 
to run the Link-10 which we call a E-meter.

If you get a prescaler without this feature, than you can add a Xantrex 
DC-DC 12 converter that is just design to power the Link-10 meter.

You will need a 8 conductor double shielded cable, where each wire is 
shielded and the overall jacket is shield, that will run to the meter to the 
meter shunt and prescaler if required.

A meter shunt of either 500 or 1000 amp rating which is design for the 
Link-10 is required.

Your other meters could be move to monitor the motor amps and voltage.  The 
amp meter shunt for this is install between the motor and controller. 
Monitoring the motor ampere is as critical as the battery amperes.  You can 
monitor the maximum motor continuous ampere rating of your motor.  Your 
motor ampere can surge higher the normally running ampere rate for a short 
time.

Roland











----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jacob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 11:26 AM
Subject: Appropriate gauges for monitoring batteries?


> Hi gang, I have two EV trucks, both with volt and amp meters, but neither
> with other gauges such as "State of charge" or amp hr meters. I don't
> understand which would be better for both protecting my battery life, and
> for knowing available range left in batteries. Should I get both, or is 
> one
> by itself adequate? I have a Solectria E-10 276V w/AC motors, and a 120V 
> DC
> conversion S-15 GMC. Please advise.
>
> Thanks...Jacob Harris
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Thanks - but, I already had that information for HOV Freeway Lane sticker
application - what I am, though, seeking is information for the ZEV Parking
sticker, referenced in Brian's prior post -

Thanks, again, for the coming e-ply -

Until next INTERNEcTion -

Take care (and spread it around) -

Peace,
         Andy

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 8:32 AM
Subject: RE: Titling EV issue


> http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/carpool.htm#vehicles
>
>
> John Grigg
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Dr. Andy Mars
> Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 5:38 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Titling EV issue
>
> I didn't realize there was a different sticker for ZEV Parking, in
> California, other than the HOV Freeway Lane sticker - what form do you
> need to fill out for the ZEV Parking?
>
> Thanks, in advance, for your e-ply.
>
> Until next INTERNEcTion -
>
> Take care (and spread it around) -
>
> Peace,
>           Andy
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian M. Sutin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 9:47 PM
> Subject: Re: Titling EV issue
>
>
> >
> > When I titled my EV, the policeman refused to note down that it was
> electric.
> > He said that this was not his job.  At the DMV, they just believed me
> that
> it
> > was electric and gave me a no-smog title.  I also got the ZEV parking
> sticker
> > without showing proof.  Sadly, the California freeway lane sticker
> requires
> > an inspection.
> >
> > Brian
> > http://www.skewray.com/alfa
> >
> > > Last week I titled my EV in California ...
> > >
> > > The vehicle title was from out of state I had a form signed by a
> peace
> > > officer (city policeman) to verify the vin , make , model. He also
> > > noted that it was electric powered.
> > >
> > > I filled out a statement of facts that it was electric
> > > powered.Exempting smog test .
> > >
> > > Went to DMV with title and forms (no vehicle).  Paid fees and walked
> > > out with new plates and regis for a year .
> > >
> > > Got pink slip today with with fuel marked as E  instead of G
> >
> > -- 
> > Brian M. Sutin, Ph.D.     Space System Engineering and Optical Design
> > Skewray Research/316 W Green St/Claremont CA 91711 USA/(909) 621-3122
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Well, it depends on the city.
San Jose for example requires a $17 fee with a parking request,
you can find it on the Driveclean website and additional info on
the CA air info board: www.zevinfo.com

The overview of all EV incentives listed for CA is here:
http://www.zevinfo.com/en/gv/incentives/index.asp?blnBtnHit=true

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water    IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel:   +1 408 542 5225     VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax:   +1 408 731 3675     eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks   eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further  http://www.proxim.com


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Dr. Andy Mars
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 3:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Titling EV issue


Thanks - but, I already had that information for HOV Freeway Lane sticker
application - what I am, though, seeking is information for the ZEV Parking
sticker, referenced in Brian's prior post -

Thanks, again, for the coming e-ply -

Until next INTERNEcTion -

Take care (and spread it around) -

Peace,
         Andy

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 8:32 AM
Subject: RE: Titling EV issue


> http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/carpool.htm#vehicles
>
>
> John Grigg
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Dr. Andy Mars
> Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 5:38 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Titling EV issue
>
> I didn't realize there was a different sticker for ZEV Parking, in
> California, other than the HOV Freeway Lane sticker - what form do you
> need to fill out for the ZEV Parking?
>
> Thanks, in advance, for your e-ply.
>
> Until next INTERNEcTion -
>
> Take care (and spread it around) -
>
> Peace,
>           Andy
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian M. Sutin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 9:47 PM
> Subject: Re: Titling EV issue
>
>
> >
> > When I titled my EV, the policeman refused to note down that it was
> electric.
> > He said that this was not his job.  At the DMV, they just believed me
> that
> it
> > was electric and gave me a no-smog title.  I also got the ZEV parking
> sticker
> > without showing proof.  Sadly, the California freeway lane sticker
> requires
> > an inspection.
> >
> > Brian
> > http://www.skewray.com/alfa
> >
> > > Last week I titled my EV in California ...
> > >
> > > The vehicle title was from out of state I had a form signed by a
> peace
> > > officer (city policeman) to verify the vin , make , model. He also
> > > noted that it was electric powered.
> > >
> > > I filled out a statement of facts that it was electric
> > > powered.Exempting smog test .
> > >
> > > Went to DMV with title and forms (no vehicle).  Paid fees and walked
> > > out with new plates and regis for a year .
> > >
> > > Got pink slip today with with fuel marked as E  instead of G
> >
> > -- 
> > Brian M. Sutin, Ph.D.     Space System Engineering and Optical Design
> > Skewray Research/316 W Green St/Claremont CA 91711 USA/(909) 621-3122
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Google "ZEV Parking" - lots of info comes up.

Don




-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dr. Andy Mars
Sent: March 12, 2006 3:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Titling EV issue

Thanks - but, I already had that information for HOV Freeway Lane sticker
application - what I am, though, seeking is information for the ZEV Parking
sticker, referenced in Brian's prior post -

Thanks, again, for the coming e-ply -

Until next INTERNEcTion -

Take care (and spread it around) -

Peace,
         Andy

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 8:32 AM
Subject: RE: Titling EV issue


> http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/carpool.htm#vehicles
>
>
> John Grigg
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Dr. Andy Mars
> Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 5:38 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Titling EV issue
>
> I didn't realize there was a different sticker for ZEV Parking, in
> California, other than the HOV Freeway Lane sticker - what form do you
> need to fill out for the ZEV Parking?
>
> Thanks, in advance, for your e-ply.
>
> Until next INTERNEcTion -
>
> Take care (and spread it around) -
>
> Peace,
>           Andy
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian M. Sutin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 9:47 PM
> Subject: Re: Titling EV issue
>
>
> >
> > When I titled my EV, the policeman refused to note down that it was
> electric.
> > He said that this was not his job.  At the DMV, they just believed me
> that
> it
> > was electric and gave me a no-smog title.  I also got the ZEV parking
> sticker
> > without showing proof.  Sadly, the California freeway lane sticker
> requires
> > an inspection.
> >
> > Brian
> > http://www.skewray.com/alfa
> >
> > > Last week I titled my EV in California ...
> > >
> > > The vehicle title was from out of state I had a form signed by a
> peace
> > > officer (city policeman) to verify the vin , make , model. He also
> > > noted that it was electric powered.
> > >
> > > I filled out a statement of facts that it was electric
> > > powered.Exempting smog test .
> > >
> > > Went to DMV with title and forms (no vehicle).  Paid fees and walked
> > > out with new plates and regis for a year .
> > >
> > > Got pink slip today with with fuel marked as E  instead of G
> >
> > -- 
> > Brian M. Sutin, Ph.D.     Space System Engineering and Optical Design
> > Skewray Research/316 W Green St/Claremont CA 91711 USA/(909) 621-3122
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Does anyone else live in a state
that does not register Electric cars?

I haven't finished my investigation yet,
but I was just amazed that the DMV Special Titles
office tells me that New Jersey does not register
electric cars.

I'm going to write to the new Governor.  Soon
as I find my Round Tuit...

(meanwhile, I blame my newborn :-) :-) :-)

--- End Message ---
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
> I didn't realize there was a different sticker for ZEV Parking, in
> California, other than the HOV Freeway Lane sticker - what form do you need
> to fill out for the ZEV Parking?

It isn't much use -- I've never seen a ZEV parking spot.  I just got it
because I could.  I think mine is numberd in the 200's, so almost none
have been applied for.  I found the form on some CA state webpage with
a google search.

Brian
http://www.skewray.com/alfa

-- 
Brian M. Sutin, Ph.D.     Space System Engineering and Optical Design
Skewray Research/316 W Green St/Claremont CA 91711 USA/(909) 621-3122

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
This is a question for you guys that like to do mega burn-outs.  I have
built a few couplers out of 303 stainless, these have worked well in my
applications and obviously stay free of corrosion.  Are there any tips on
materials for couplers used in the high performance applications like the
Current Eliminator or some of the NEDRA cars?  Do you guys use tool steel
or just a cold rolled bar stock?
Thanks,
Jimmy

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
This is a question for you guys that like to do mega burn-outs.  I have
built a few couplers out of 303 stainless, these have worked well in my
applications and obviously stay free of corrosion.  Are there any tips on
materials for couplers used in the high performance applications like the
Current Eliminator or some of the NEDRA cars?  Do you guys use tool steel
or just a cold rolled bar stock?


I use 7075 aluminum on my twin motor 914. Pictures and drawings here:
http://evcl.com/914/
Look under the adaptor plate link.

hth,
--
-Otmar-

http://www.CafeElectric.com/
The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
Now accepting resumes. Please see:
http://www.cafeelectric.com/jobs.html

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- The coupler needs to be no stronger than the motor shaft, if you think about it.
The Current Eliminator (and my bike) are both chain drive. No coupler involved.
I use off-the-shelf #60 sprockets that I machine down to fit #630 motorcycle chain. These are mighty tough steel. I suspect they are case hardened. 

        Bill Dube'

At 09:44 PM 3/12/2006, you wrote:

This is a question for you guys that like to do mega burn-outs.  I have
built a few couplers out of 303 stainless, these have worked well in my
applications and obviously stay free of corrosion.  Are there any tips on
materials for couplers used in the high performance applications like the
Current Eliminator or some of the NEDRA cars?  Do you guys use tool steel
or just a cold rolled bar stock?
Thanks,
Jimmy

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Neon John wrote Friday, March 03, 2006 8:05 PM:
> This non-isolated non-issue gets beaten to death about every 3
months
> it seems.  Despite all the arm-waving, I have to wonder if
anyone has
> even been tingled by a non-isolated charger?  I've certainly
never
> seen anyone post about it.  I'm not talking about being shocked
by the
> pack's DC voltage.  I'm talking about an AC shock from touching
a
> single point on the pack wiring (and ground, of course) when a
PFC is
> connected (or a bad boy or any other non-isolated charger.)

I have been tingled (somewhat uncomfortable) by a 120V variac
through bridge rectifier on my 96V VoltsRabbit (metal racks over
the batteries in the front pack).  But my shoes have to be wet,
the ground wet, and the car wet (or at least my hand damp/wet
when I open the hatchback or hood).  I've frankly given up
getting rid of the phantom DC voltage (not on charge) between the
pack and the chassis.  I clean my batteries every month, but
there is no way to avoid the scuz getting underneath the lips of
the racks to enough extent to prevent voltage tracking.  When I
got a new battery pack last spring and I had the racks
re-powdercoated, I emailed ElectroAutomotive as to what their
rack isolation kit amounted to.  No response.  I then attempted
to make up my own kit with heatshrink tubing around the hold-down
straps and plastic washers under the hold-down strap bolt-heads.
Unfortunately, all that new powdercoating significantly cut down
the clearance for the hold-down straps inside the eyes extending
out from the racks.  Ran out of time to deal with the issue and
do a good ream-out job.  Assuming that the racks themselves don't
touch the chassis anywhere else (a fair assumption), then this
should isolate my pack.  Hopefully I'll get back to it someday.

I know Mike Brown said he explored plastic cases for the front
battery pack, but concluded there was not enough room.  I can see
that.  Any more thought been given to this?

I normally charge with an isolated charger (Zivan).

Sorry, about a week behind on my EVDL reading.  Also having too
much fun reading about Wayland's posts on burnouts with the cops!

Chuck

Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Seth Rothenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 10:46 PM
Subject: Forbidden Cars


> Does anyone else live in a state
> that does not register Electric cars?
>
  Hi Seth an' All;

   NO WONDER there are no electric cars in NJ! No EAA or other groups there,
at least that we know about!??

> I haven't finished my investigation yet,
> but I was just amazed that the DMV Special Titles
> office tells me that New Jersey does not register
> electric cars.

> Try ANOTHER part of the DMV. What's it to em WHAT makes it go , just as
long as they get the tax revinue?

> I'm going to write to the new Governor.  Soon
> as I find my Round Tuit...

    Well give him hell!
>
> (meanwhile, I blame my newborn :-) :-) :-)
>
      A new EVer? YEAH! Waytogo!  Him or her?

    Seeya

    Bob
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Hello to All,

Jimmy wrote:
This is a question for you guys that like to do mega burn-outs. 

OK, I guess that qualifies me :-)


Are there any tips on
materials for couplers used in the high performance applications like the
Current Eliminator or some of the NEDRA cars?  Do you guys use tool steel
or just a cold rolled bar stock?
When running the twin 8 inch motors in White Zombie equipped with a battery pack capable of delivering 2500+ amps of current and after using the brutal 2500+ amp 'Afterburner Bypass' a few too many times, the coupler between the motors, and the cold rolled steel motor shafts, keyways, and the key stock pieces, were getting torn up and worn to where something was going to break. Perhaps the wear was just from pieces not quite being machined just right or aligned perfectly. In any event, when we designed the new Siamese 8 motor, we wanted the shaft material to be strong. Dutchman Motorsports chose a high strength rating of stainless steel to machine the super long shaft out of. Maybe Jim Husted can recall the exact material number and its hardness rating? If my memory serves me correctly, the cold rolled steel shaft of a stock motor is something like a '30' rating where the special stainless shaft has a '130' rating...Jim? This shaft has a splined output that mates into a beefy Spicer U-joint yoke. You can view it here: 

http://photos.plasmaboyracing.com/buildsequence/Shaft_Spicer
We also wanted to have the new Siamese 8 setup to be as simple as possible. The new design got rid of the obvious, the two separate motors and their motor bracket-mount in favor of a single unit that still acts like two motors (25 lb. weight savings), and so it also eliminated the motor-to-motor shaft coupler. It also got rid of the rear motor output flange, the flanged U-joint coupler that attached to it, the heavy all steel two piece driveline, and the center support bracket and carrier bearing assembly. Now, there's just the Siamese 8 with its splined output shaft, and a light and strong aluminum driveshaft (10 lb. spinning mass weight savings) that slides onto the motor shaft. The new motor is also 7 inches shorter than were the twin motors on their mount bracket, so the Siamese 8 sits flat and parallel to the ground, unlike the old twin motor affair that was so long it had to sit on top of the front transverse frame rail of the car and poke downward so the back end of the rear motor would clear the tranny bell housing body tunnel.
If things go as planned, the car will soon shed even more weight when we change out the heavy steel case Ford 9 inch differential and replace it with a much lighter all aluminum unit from Strange Engineering. The continued weight reductions, plus a taller gear set in back, high rpm field weakening, and a fresh battery pack (thank you Hawker AeroBatteries), should help us achieve this year's goal of running an 11.5 @ 115 mph...on DOT tires. 

See Ya......John Wayland

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
HI All,
I did a very non-engineering approach to buying ev components for my electric motorbike today.
I was at Jaycar, buying components for my PWM circuit for my thesis when i stumbled across some SLA 12 volt 18Ahr batteries for sale at 35.90 each from 44.95.
Since i was known to be a regular customer at the store the manager instantly said he'll give me them for 30 dollars each if i buy 12. Well i said i only want 6 for 72 volts system that i orignally planned for. However, he then said, yeah ok, take them for 30 bux each i you buy six. 

So i did.
I could't help it. too cheap. They are cheap batteries. And are capable of 100 amps short circuit for 5 sec. So i was pondering to myself, maybe get another 6 and have a lower current draw and higher top end. I am designing the motorcontroller for this project. 

Anyone running 144 votls on their bike.


Cheers

_________________________________________________________________
realestate.com.au: the biggest address in property http://ninemsn.realestate.com.au
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Hi Seth,


Does anyone else live in a state
that does not register Electric cars?

I haven't finished my investigation yet,
but I was just amazed that the DMV Special Titles
office tells me that New Jersey does not register
electric cars.
I do not think this is right. I know that The Station car project had a least 6 Licensed EV's in NJ. My guess is the person you spoke to did not know how to register an EV and thus, they decided it can't be done<g>. 

Cliff
www.ProEV.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Hi Lee,


"Dr. Andy Mars" wrote:

Is it better to run the battery down and then fully charge,

or

Is it better to charge throughout the day a little here and a little
here, as opportunity arises?


The answer depends on the type of battery.

Lead-acid
---------
Lead-acids do NOT like to be deeply dishcharged. The shallower the
discharge, the longer they last. Typical numbers are

100% discharge =   50 cycles
80% discharge =  200 cycles
50% discharge =  600 cycles
20% discharge = 1000 cycles
 1% discharge = 5000 cycles



Snip-snip



Lithium
-------

But as long as you avoid the "ends" (fully charged or fully discharged),
lithiums tend not to care what state of charge they are at. I don't
think we have enough data to tell if there is a optimum state of charge
for best cost per mile.
Here is some data from the Kokam Lithium Polymer cells that might allow us to start looking at the relationship to cycle life and depth of discharge. 

They have graphs for cycle life at 100%, 80% and 20% discharge at 1C.

Go to http://www.kokamamerica.com/kokam_catalog.pdf  page 15 for the actual
graphs etc.

These are for Kokam's improved cells which are specifically the High Power
cells which are good for 1400 cycles. Cycle life is at 1C discharge rate and
to 80% of initial capacity.

At ProEV we are still running the old version which was rated as good for
>500 cycles. Kokam reports they have been testing the new formulation for
the last two years and the greater cycle life is due to a change in the cathode. 

We are going to have to do a little extrapolation (i.e. guessing) to compare
the three depths of discharge cycle lives because the graphs are not to the
same point.

The 100%  depth of discharge graph ends when capacity is 80% of initial
capacity.
The 80% depth of discharge graph ends when capacity is 90% of initial
capacity.
The 20% depth of discharge graph ends when capacity is 95% of initial
capacity.

Both the 80% and 20% depth of discharge graphs include a 100% discharge ever
50 cycles to measure capacity accurately.

I see two ways to extrapolate. Either multiply to extend the graphs which
gives us (using a 100 amp-hr cell):

100%    1400 cycles to 80%    = 1400 cycles to 100%
which gives a total of 140,000 amp-hrs

 80%    3000 cycles to 90%    = 6000 cycles to 80%
which gives a total of 480,000 amp-hrs

 20%    3300 cycles to 95%    =  13,200 cycles to 20%
which gives a total of 264,000 amp-hrs

or we can compare them all at the point that capacity drops to 95%

100%    550 cycles which gives 55,000 amp-hrs
 80%    2100 cycles which gives 168,000 amp-hrs
 20%    3300 cycles which gives 66,000 amp-hrs
It seems the two estimate methods agree that you triple your amp-hrs over cell life by discharging to 80% instead of 100%. That is a huge gain and an easy one to get since most people will design their EV with some spare range for unexpected detours.
The shallow (20%) discharge results give less amp-hrs over life than the 80% discharge but the two estimates do not agree on how much better the shallow discharge is than the full (100%) discharge. I wonder why? 

I also wonder what a 50% discharge cycle life results looks like?

Cliff
www.ProEV.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Seth Rothenberg wrote:
> I haven't finished my investigation yet,
> but I was just amazed that the DMV Special Titles
> office tells me that New Jersey does not register
> electric cars.

They're wrong. They don't know how to do it, and the easy answer is "No.
Go away."

No state has a law against electric cars per se. The closest they come
is not allowing NEVs (Neighborhood Electric Vehicles), which can only go
about 25 mph.
-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Chuck Hursch wrote:
> I have been tingled (somewhat uncomfortably) by a 120V variac
> through bridge rectifier on my 96V VoltsRabbit (metal racks over
> the batteries in the front pack)... I've frankly given up getting
> rid of the phantom DC voltage (not on charge) between the pack
> and the chassis. I clean my batteries every month, but there is
> no way to avoid the scuz getting underneath the lips of the racks
> enough extent to prevent voltage tracking... Any more thought been
> given to this?

My ComutaVan had this problem. My solution was to line the battery box
with two layers of 10mil polyethylene sheet. This stuff is very
flexible, and hardly thicker than a sheet of paper. I folded it so there
were no holes or seams in the corners, making a 5-sided box to put the
batteries in. No more leakage current problems!

The only change was that I had to punch a small hole in the bottom,
right above a corresponding hole in the bottom of my boxes, to let water
out when I washed down the batteries.
-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 



100%    550 cycles which gives 55,000 amp-hrs
 80%    2100 cycles which gives 168,000 amp-hrs
 20%    3300 cycles which gives 66,000 amp-hrs
The shallow (20%) discharge results give less amp-hrs over life than the 80% discharge but the two estimates do not agree on how much better the shallow discharge is than the full (100%) discharge. I wonder why?
I'm wondering it the low cycle life on the 20% is becuse of end of charge being hard on the battery or becuse of just plane old age , as in many years 
steve clunn



I also wonder what a 50% discharge cycle life results looks like?


and how many cycles per day ,




Cliff
www.ProEV.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
On 3/11/06, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > OK, you can't make energy for free and no battery additive is going
> > to make a lead acid battery store 10x more energy.

> Likewise, lead-acid batteries are nowhere near producing their maximum
> theoretical limits. If you could convert every molecule of lead oxide to
> lead sulfate, you *would* get 10x the energy. But the practicalities get
> in the way. Most of the lead in a lead-acid battery is just supporting
> structure and current-carrying conductors. To improve it, you have to
> devise lighter mechanisms that can hold and electrically connect to the
> lead oxide/lead sulfate molecules.

I read about a new lead acid battery that seems to attempt to do this
- I've no idea how real it is however.

"The Firefly Energy battery comprises an electrical current collector
constructed of carbon or graphite foam-compared to the heavy lead
plates that are found in today's batteries. The difference with the
new battery is that it is less expensive, more energy efficient,
lighter in weight and less likely to corrode than either the nickel
metal hydride or lithium batteries currently used in today's hybrid
electric vehicles."

"utilisation efficicencies can potentially rise over 90%"

http://www.fireflyenergy.com/ffy.html

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Evan Tuer wrote:
> "The Firefly Energy battery comprises an electrical current collector
> constructed of carbon or graphite foam-compared to the heavy lead
> plates that are found in today's batteries. The difference with the
> new battery is that it is less expensive, more energy efficient,
> lighter in weight and less likely to corrode than either the nickel
> metal hydride or lithium batteries currently used in today's hybrid
> electric vehicles."

The plates necessarily have a huge surface area, yet you must
concentrate all this current into a single large external terminal. This
(almost) inevitably takes some large high-current conductors. Carbon and
graphite are lousy conductors; that's why they make resistors out of
them.

I said "almost" because there is one possible trick with lead-acid
batteries that doesn't work with any other type. In a lead-acid cell,
both plates are the same material (lead). So in theory, you can use one
side of the same sheet of lead as the + for one cell, and the - on the
next one. The lead sheet itself forms the inter-cell wall, and support
for the lead oxide/lead sulfate that makes it work. This elimnates the
need for large current carrying conductors between cells, because the
current just flows through the (arbitrarily thin) lead sheet.

However, no one's ever been able to get this to work effectively. It's
too hard to seal the edges and prevent pinhole leaks between cells.
-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I think they likely meant they don't register NEVs (Neighborhood Electric Vehicles that can only go 25 mph). Explain to them that yours is freeway capable and will go as fast as a gas car, or at least the maximum speed limit. 

Dave

----Original Message Follows----
From: Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Forbidden Cars
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 22:46:48 -0500 (EST)

Does anyone else live in a state
that does not register Electric cars?

I haven't finished my investigation yet,
but I was just amazed that the DMV Special Titles
office tells me that New Jersey does not register
electric cars.

I'm going to write to the new Governor.  Soon
as I find my Round Tuit...

(meanwhile, I blame my newborn :-) :-) :-)

--- End Message ---

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