EV Digest 5252
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: New Renders of remodelled skateboard Fiero up
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Li-poly cycle life (was Re: Better to Run Down or...)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Range extender on the Nissan
by "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Parallel Charging
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Different Cell Capacities
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: ZEV parking decal in CA
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Different Cell Capacities
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: ZEV parking decal in CA
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Wavecrest fabrication shop up for auction
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: new low-RR tyre
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: new low-RR tyre
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Fw: Brusa NLG 412B
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Bradley GT EV kitcar available cheap in Fla on E bay
by Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Range extender on the Nissan
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Bradley GT EV kitcar available cheap in Fla on E bay
by kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Different Cell Capacities
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: When to Charge?
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Different Cell Capacities
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Wavecrest fabrication shop up for auction
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Wavecrest fabrication shop up for auction
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Wavecrest fabrication shop up for auction
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Bradley GT EV kitcar available cheap in Fla on E bay
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Can some one build a small motor controller?
by Jacob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Car Transport (was: RE: Bradley GT EV kitcar available cheap in Fla on E
bay )
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) The wreck
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
PS- I meant to mention that Inventor Pro can do some structural analysis as
well. I am hoping I can use it to work out any problems before construction.
PPS- Speaking of construction. I was thinking of building a mockup using
those heavy duty cardboard tube that you get with vapour barrier. Anyone
know where you can get that stuff on the cheap?
-Mike
On 3/13/06, Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I am curious about the torsional rigidity of the skateboard frame.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have the impression that the 20 and 80% pictures are swapped.
The values surrounding the table for 20% DOD 3.98V cut off and
the much higher relative capacity remaining are consistent, but
the picture shows a discharge to 20% remaining capacity....
Regards,
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: 3/14/2006 8:57 AM
Subject: Re: Li-poly cycle life (was Re: Better to Run Down or...)
Does anyone have additional data on how much the cycles are reduced when
you discharge at 2C to 5C as compared to the 1C during the bench test?
They have warnings not to exceed 5C but what happens at 4C.
Thanks
ProEV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Steve,
I found another copy of the graphs at
http://www.kokam.com/english/product/kokam_Lipo_01.html that display
better
on my computer. After peering at them some more, I think my first method
of
extrapolation which comes out with 13,200 shallow (20%) cycles before
the
lithium polymer cells drop to 80% of original capacity does a better job
of
matching the data we have.
If you look at the 100% discharge cycle life graph, the slope is flat
(the
cell loses virtually no capacity) for the first 200 cycles and then
begins
it's slope down to 1,400 cycles. For the 80% discharge cycle life graph,
the
slope is flat (the cell loses virtually no capacity) for the first 1000
cycles and then begins to slope down. For the shallow (20% discharge)
cycle
life graph, the graph seems to be a slight steady slope from the
beginning
but no sharper drop off.
This means when you compare the number of cycles to 95% of original
capacity
rather than the more standard 80% of original capacity, there is less
advantage to the shallow cycle regime
>> 100% 550 cycles which gives 55,000 amp-hrs
>> 80% 2,100 cycles which gives 168,000 amp-hrs
>> 20% 3,300 cycles which gives 66,000 amp-hrs
But if you match the graphs existing slope and extend it to 80% of
original
capacity, the shallow discharge is not as good as the 80% discharge but
twice as good as the 100% discharge.
100% 1,400 cycles which gives 140,000 amp-hrs
80% 6,000 cycles which gives 480,000 amp-hrs
20% 13,200 cycles which gives 264,000 amp-hrs
It looks like the 100% discharge cycle life to 1,437 cycles is the only
complete data. The 80% discharge graph quits at 2,800 cycles and the 20%
discharge graph quits at 3,300 cycles. It is possible that some other
process would influence cycle life and the slope of the graph could
change
radically.
> I'm wondering it the low cycle life on the 20% is because of end of
charge
> being hard on the battery
This might be an influence.
>or becuse of just plane old age , as in many years
I would guess they did these tests on a battery cycler that ran
continuously. So 20% discharge at 1 C takes 20 minutes. Charge 1C than
CV,
probably 30 minutes. Each cycle 50 minutes. 3,300 X 5/6 of an hour =
2,750
hours or about 115 days. Long enough test that you can see why they did
not
test out to 13,200 cycles but not long enough to give us any insight
into any possible effects of old age.
More info:
The 100% discharge cycle life test 1,437 cycles X 2.33 hours = 3,348
hours
or 140 days.
the 80% discharge cycle life test 2,900 cycles X 2 hours = 5,800 hours
or
242 days.
It is clear why we never know everything about a new type of battery.
Battery testing requires lots of time and money. Cycle life testing is
very
helpful but I would feel more comfortable talking about 13,200 cycles if
I
knew about calendar life. A good test would be to cycle the cell 50
times
each month for 10 years but who wants to wait ten years? This is why big
companies are hesitant to use new battery chemistries in their products.
There might be a hidden 'Gotch'ya' down the line.
We, at ProEV, are really excited about these reformulated Kokam's. They
still deliver the high amps (5C/10C) and now 1,400 cycles at 100%
discharge!
If the cycle life data tests out, their high price is not so
unreasonable.
Time and testing will tell!
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Travel
Find great deals to the top 10 hottest destinations!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey everyone,
As much as I would love to pull a White Zombie and drive to and from the
race track, the Joule Injected 240SX just doesn't have the range. Moroso is
a good 30 miles from me, and that's just begging for disaster, pushing the
absolute limits of the car. Plus, I'd need to bring along a generator for
charging between races, and that's just not going to fit in the hatchback.
I picked up a nice little utility trailer with the idea of loading a
generator onto it and powering the PFC20 during the ride. I know the concept
has been discussed before on the list, but searching through the archives,
I'm afraid I'm going to miss some practical detail leading to expensive
repairs. Steve Clunn mentioned something to me yesterday about a caution
that had been noted regarding the generator surging at the end when it's
running out of gas. That prompted me to check out the download section on
the Manzanita website (thank you, Joe Smalley). There's a nice application
note regarding this setup, and I see the caution about the input waveform
exceeding 400 volts. I wouldn't have the charger connected before starting
the generator, so this shouldn't typically be a problem, but maybe this is
what happens in one of those "last gasp" surges. Actually, since I don't
have the generator yet, it may be a deciding factor in which one I get.
Charging at 110V is not a great option for me; I'd prefer to always charge
at 220. Are there any indications against this procedure with my charger and
controller (PFC20 and Z2K)? Any other cautions?
Thanks!
Matt Graham
300V "Joule Injected" Nissan
http://www.jouleinjected.com
Hobe Sound, FL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
I connected a 30A fuse between the equivalent neg to pos series connection
points of each cell size series string. The + & - end points were of course
joined by heavy gauge cable. I used 30A fuses to not blow during normal use
(none ever did) and they should still blow in case of a short cct fault in a
cell.
Doug
>
> From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2006/03/14 Tue AM 10:01:41 EST
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Parallel Charging
>
> Doug, when you buddy-pair your cells, do you, for example, hook the negative
> terminals directly together, and hook the positive terminals together via a
> fuse? And if you do use a fuse, how to you choose its amp rating?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Doug Hartley
> Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 10:42 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Parallel Charging
>
> Bill,
>
> That should work (and the buddy cells with a single BMS module for each pair
>
> also, despite TS comments to me). The biggest risk may be the 50 Amps
> charging capability if the cells are not balanced. Better make sure that
> the charger cutback works well. The under voltage protection is important
> to prevent damage.
>
> Doug
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 12:04 AM
> Subject: RE: Parallel Charging
>
>
> > All right, guys, how about this, then:
> >
> > I also have a non-isolated charger that can put out 20A. At charging
> > time,
> > I disconnect the two strings and charge the 200Ah cells with the three
> > isolated chargers at 50A, and the 90Ah cells with the non-isolated charger
> > at 15A. Both strings should take about the same amount of time to charge.
> > And since I've installed clampers on each of the cells, they should all be
> > at around 4.25V at the end of charging, so the two strings should be
> > within
> > a few tenths of a volt OCV of each other. At that point I connect them
> > back
> > together, and they equalize that small voltage, probably without too much
> > of
> > a current inrush between them.
> >
> > Would that work?
> >
> > Thanks again.
> >
> > Bill Dennis
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Doug Hartley
> > Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 9:19 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: Parallel Charging
> >
> > Bill, Victor,
> >
> > This is what I did with 200AH and 100 A-h cells. It would seem that with
> > the wide and relatively linear voltage change with state of charge, they
> > would share well according to their capacity. The voltage clampers would
> > make sure that no cell saw too high a voltage and got damaged from that.
> >
> > However, when I complained to Thunder Sky last year about the big drop in
> > capacity I have already, they blamed it on having the 2 different size
> > cells
> >
> > in parallel. I asked for an explanation and emailed back and forth a few
> > times about that, but still couldn't see their explanation as being valid.
> > They hadn't said any warning about that when I metioned paralleling the
> > cells to Brendan early on.
> >
> > I think that my last 28 100 A-hr cells from November 2004, that I use
> > with
> >
> > the 8 DCS-75 AGM batteries in the hatchback, are better quality. I also
> > bought the Stybrook cell monitoring modules to have low voltage protection
> > as well as over-voltage. I have installed them and am about to wire the
> > outputs so I will shut off the lithium pack contactor in case of an over
> > or
> > under-voltage condition on 1 or more cells.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Doug
> >
> >
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
If I have a string of TS cells, but one cell in the string has a higher Ah
rating than the others, then are the following true:
1) String current will be limited by the lower Ah strings, which have a
higher internal resistance
No, the string current is sum of what larger ones supply + smaller ones.
They re in parallel. Since lion's share is supplied by larger cells,
they are the ones which determine overall value (and so limit it).
2) Since the same current is flowing through all cells,...
Same through buddy pairs, but not through both cells within a pair!
... about the same
amount of Ah will be used from each cell--the higher Ah cell will not have
as deep a DOD as the lower ones, so there will be some capacity in the
higher cell that won't get used because one of the lower cells will run out
first, but...
This is true
3) When the string is charged, all cells will reach full at about the same
time, because they will all be receiving the same amount of Ah.
NO!! If that would be the case, no one would need the BMS.
If the capacity would be the same, initial SOC is determined,
and capacity wouldn't drift with the temp/age/moon phase,
all the cells would reach "full" at the same time. But this is
not the case. And the ones which reach it first WILL get damaged
if you keep charging for the rest of the string to get full.
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tim,
A yahoo search
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22ZEV+parking+decal%22
gives links with more information:
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22511_1.htm
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/vehindustry/vin_memos/vin2003/03vin09.pdf
http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/en/gv/incentives/
http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/en/gv/incentives/index_des.asp?incentiveid=55
To get one use:
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/forms/reg/reg4048.pdf
I have one and recommend California EV drivers get one. Its cheap
and shows you are legal to park in and use the public EV charging
spots.
IMHO: I am not impressed with the quality of the sticker or its
logo. My sticker has already puckered with age. My EV plugs in
from the front, thus I don't want to mislead the public with an
logo that looks like an 'Electric mouse'.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, Victor. Let me ask the question a second way, just to make sure I
understand, because I wasn't suggesting that a BMS isn't needed. I'm just
trying to get my thought correct on how cells discharge and charge.
Let's say you have two batteries in series, a 200Ah cell, and a 270Ah
battery made of three 90Ah cells in parallel. Initially, both are fully
charged to 4.25V. You then run some amount of amps through them for a while
until the 200Ah cell is at 3V.
1) Will the 270Ah cell be at around 3V, or at a higher voltage?
2) Now you reverse the process and charge them. Will both reach 4.25V at
"around" the same time (just like two 200Ah cells in series would), or will
one reach 4.25V at some longer time before the other (unlike two 200Ah cells
in series)?
Thanks.
> 3) When the string is charged, all cells will reach full at about the
same
> time, because they will all be receiving the same amount of Ah.
>>NO!! If that would be the case, no one would need the BMS.
>>If the capacity would be the same, initial SOC is determined,
>>and capacity wouldn't drift with the temp/age/moon phase,
>>all the cells would reach "full" at the same time. But this is
>>not the case. And the ones which reach it first WILL get damaged
>>if you keep charging for the rest of the string to get full.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow. In the words of Comic Book Guy: "Worst Logo EVER!"
bruce parmenter wrote:
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/forms/reg/reg4048.pdf
I have one and recommend California EV drivers get one. Its cheap
and shows you are legal to park in and use the public EV charging
spots.
IMHO: I am not impressed with the quality of the sticker or its
logo. My sticker has already puckered with age. My EV plugs in
from the front, thus I don't want to mislead the public with an
logo that looks like an 'Electric mouse'.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a beautiful collection of fabrication and test gear up for
auction. This is the hardware that Wavecrest used to fabricate and test
their hub motors.
http://www.americanaai.com/auctions/wavecrest.htm
Hope this helps!
-Ken Trough
V is for Voltage
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Over here they are used on the Honda Hybrid. These are well known on the
list as being the best possible lrr tire. There was a list of tires posted
about 6 months ago and this tire was on the top of the list. LR....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 3:01 AM
Subject: new low-RR tyre
I discovered a Bridgestone tyre which is specially made for the fuel
efficient VW Lupo.
It's listed as B 381 Ecopia 145/80 R14 76T
http://www.bridgestone-eu.com/bfe/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=000000000000000000001_2_40276articleRCRD
http://ssl.delti.com/cgi-bin/reifensucher.pl?ID=froogle&typ=76817&Country=UK
Of course there is no published data on what the rolling resistance
figure actually is, but it's probably worth trying if you can use that
size of tyre.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't think the 145/80 R14 size are sold on any car in the USA. The
Insight uses a 165/65 R14 Bridgestone RE92 (Which I have found to be
great low RR tires, btw.)
Has anyone found a source for the B 381 Ecopia 145/80 R14 76T tires on
this side of the pond?
thanks,
Andrew
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Over here they are used on the Honda Hybrid. These are well known on
the list as being the best possible lrr tire. There was a list of
tires posted about 6 months ago and this tire was on the top of the
list. LR....
----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 3:01 AM
Subject: new low-RR tyre
I discovered a Bridgestone tyre which is specially made for the fuel
efficient VW Lupo.
It's listed as B 381 Ecopia 145/80 R14 76T
http://www.bridgestone-eu.com/bfe/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=000000000000000000001_2_40276articleRCRD
http://ssl.delti.com/cgi-bin/reifensucher.pl?ID=froogle&typ=76817&Country=UK
Of course there is no published data on what the rolling resistance
figure actually is, but it's probably worth trying if you can use that
size of tyre.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone figured out if the Brusa NLG 412B (Saft model) will work with
the BB600 batteries? Lawrence Rhodes..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: Brusa NLG 412B
I checked the constant current charging voltage of the Saft battery and it
falls within the range specified by Marathon for their BB600
batteries......Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: Brusa NLG 412B
On 24 Feb 2006 at 11:06, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
But should you decide
to change the battery chemistry in future, SAFT version of charger
will be only useful for re-sale.
This may be true with the NLG5 chargers. It may also be true for some
of
the
NLG4 chargers.
The NLG412B chargers I have were manufactured for use in the prototype
Pivco
Citibees, so they may be a special case. However, for these chargers, a
subset of the general purpose program remains in the EEPROM. This gives
them some flexibility.
The Saft algorithm they have is specific to the STM batteries, and in
the
default factory configuration only supports a 120 volt pack. This
algorithm
will probably not be usable for other nicads. It also requires some
custom
external hardware to drive the charger's internal pilot (amp-hour)
counter.
As I mentioned there are some specifics of this charger that a person
considering it should know about. It's rather detailed and I'm sorry
but I
don't want to type it all in unless somebody *really* needs to know
about
it. Lawrence, if you are serious, email me privately (see the sig below
for
contact details).
I emphasize again that what I know about these chargers applies to the
ones
built for Pivco, and may or may not apply to other Saft-standard NLG412
chargers manufactured by Brusa.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I bought it, now I have to get to CA. Any recommendations for a
reasonable transport service?
Thanks,
Bill
jerryd wrote:
Hi All,
Here's something from another list you may
like, a really nice looking Bradley-2 EV without batts,
motor, controller in Fla. It looks like one the factory made
EV stock though may just be one made by a customer.
It would make a great EV sportscar or good
freeway EV as it's lightweight, fairly aero. Just what one
needs in an EV.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BRADLEY-GTII-REPLICA-KIT-CAR-FL_W0QQitemZ8046262470
HTH'
Jerry Dycus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 12:28:48 -0500, "Matthew D. Graham"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hey everyone,
>
>As much as I would love to pull a White Zombie and drive to and from the
>race track, the Joule Injected 240SX just doesn't have the range. Moroso is
>a good 30 miles from me, and that's just begging for disaster, pushing the
>absolute limits of the car. Plus, I'd need to bring along a generator for
>charging between races, and that's just not going to fit in the hatchback.
>
>I picked up a nice little utility trailer with the idea of loading a
>generator onto it and powering the PFC20 during the ride. I know the concept
>has been discussed before on the list, but searching through the archives,
>I'm afraid I'm going to miss some practical detail leading to expensive
>repairs. Steve Clunn mentioned something to me yesterday about a caution
>that had been noted regarding the generator surging at the end when it's
>running out of gas. That prompted me to check out the download section on
>the Manzanita website (thank you, Joe Smalley). There's a nice application
>note regarding this setup, and I see the caution about the input waveform
>exceeding 400 volts. I wouldn't have the charger connected before starting
>the generator, so this shouldn't typically be a problem, but maybe this is
>what happens in one of those "last gasp" surges. Actually, since I don't
>have the generator yet, it may be a deciding factor in which one I get.
I don't have a PFC but I have lots and lots of experience designing
and using generators.
The "dying gasp" is mostly a phenomena of cheap-sh*t generators.
Quality generators, especially those designed for sensitive loads,
kill the output under various conditions including under and over
speed conditions. My Generac QuietPack is an example of that type.
The computer kills the field and thus the output upon under and
over-speed and ignition kill.
I've run into several switchmode devices with active PFC that are
rather pissy about waveform and frequency. When either deviate much
from optimum either the device shuts down or the blue smoke leaks out.
The Schumacher 30 amp 12 volt smart charger (available at Wallyworld),
an otherwise very good charger, forcefully expels its blue smoke when
a distorted sine wave from a cheap-sh*t generator is applied. I had
to prove that to myself by trying it twice :-( I don't know if the
PFC fits into this category but it is something that you need to know
before proceeding.
There are some things you can do. The first thing is to verify the
waveform of the candidate generator before buying it. If the
generator vendor won't fuel one up and run it for you, you can still
get an idea if you can view the rotor. If it is a 3600 RPM generator
(2 pole) and the rotor slots are straight (parallel with the shaft)
then the waveform is likely going to be bad. A rotor with "twisted"
slots (looks like someone clamped the rotor in a vice and twisted it
axially) is usually OK. That's the purpose of the twist.
Once the waveform is taken care of (or Rich says a bad one is OK), the
next thing is to prevent the dying gasp. The simplest method is a
combo over/under voltage and frequency relay driving a contactor that
opens the circuit when either voltage or frequency deviates outside
the specified window. These devices are called "relays" for
traditional reasons but they're actually solid state devices, usually
with a microprocessor. Both functions can be had in one box. The
cost is moderate. I don't have any names on the tip of my tongue but
I can find some if Google lets you down :-)
An alternative if you're handy with tools is to supply DC power
directly from the generator without the PFC. All you need is a bridge
rectifier of the suitable rating and an external control of the
generator's voltage regulator/field excitation. This could be as
simple as a pot and a voltmeter in the cockpit or as complex as a
smart charger regulator. (One of his regulators at
http://www.amplepower.com/ could be adapted with little more than a
scaling resistor to scale the pack voltage to the expected 12 volts
into the regulator.)
One could even add or subtract turns on the stator to move the voltage
around to where it is needed, though for the more common EV voltages,
the standard 120/240 output, varied appropriately with field
excitation, will do the job.
A generator, particularly if the governor is locked down or disabled,
closely resembles the constant current source desired for bulk
charging. Or with the governor it is a stiff constant voltage source
within the governor's authority and the engine's capability.
Even a cheap-sh*t generator can serve this purpose. One capable of
3-phase output (many single phase generators, particularly 4 pole 1800
rpm version can be internally connected for 1 or 3 phase operation)
would be even better, as the rectified output is inherently low
ripple.
I've built a few of these for customers. I have one for my 72 volt
CitiCar that I built from one of those $149 ChiCom cheap-sh*t 2 stroke
generators like Pep Boys is selling. It's a 1kw unit and when
overloaded a little (the engine runs out of steam before the generator
overheats), will do about 15 amps at 72 volts after a minor stator
rewind. For under $200 including the diodes and other stuff, not a
bad charger.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I strongly advise that you ***do not*** use A-1 Auto Transport, purportedly of
Carson, NV (but actually from California)
>I bought it, now I have to get to CA. Any recommendations for a
>reasonable transport service?
>Thanks,
>Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
Thanks, Victor. Let me ask the question a second way, just to make sure I
understand, because I wasn't suggesting that a BMS isn't needed. I'm just
trying to get my thought correct on how cells discharge and charge.
Let's say you have two batteries in series, a 200Ah cell, and a 270Ah
battery made of three 90Ah cells in parallel. Initially, both are fully
charged to 4.25V. You then run some amount of amps through them for a while
until the 200Ah cell is at 3V.
1) Will the 270Ah cell be at around 3V, or at a higher voltage?
At higher voltage - it's not as depleted as 200Ah one.
2) Now you reverse the process and charge them. Will both reach 4.25V at
"around" the same time (just like two 200Ah cells in series would), or will
one reach 4.25V at some longer time before the other (unlike two 200Ah cells
in series)?
Yes, it will reach full charge (about 4.25V) at about the same time -
for a few cycles. Repeated many times, they will diverge from each
other, and no longer get full at the same time while amount of Ah
flowing in and out is the same.
Thanks.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim,
I read your POST asking when to charge, and the responses you got
from other EV List members.
I understand the concept that a couple of listers mentioned of
waiting until you are at 75% discharged before recharging.
This method which I interrupt as not doing several shallow
discharges but a deeper discharge less often to reduce the number
of cycles used was mentioned at the San Jose EAA meeting. The
member's research showed to him that it was better to do the deeper
discharge and to in his opinion ignore the sulfation toll.
To add to your confusion with other and different approaches:
An East SF Bay EAA member for many years had brought his 96V Ghia
to the Silicon Valley EAA Rally and won many years in a row with
the same pack. After the race, the pack is at its maximum safe
discharge level. Before leaving to tow it home, he puts it on a
very light charge to bring up the surface voltage to in his
words "reduce sulfation until he can get it on a full charge."
When he gets home he fully charges the pack overnight with
a light charge current (my guess is about 7amps).
Where as Nawaz, a USBattery rep, POSTed it is better to focus on
minimizing sulfation by getting a charge ASAP (see below):
-
From: Nawaz Qureshi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:30 pm
Subject: When to Charge?
The reason for charging "at the first available opportunity it
that in partially discharged condition, lead sulfate is present on
the plates from the discharge reactions. The lead sulfate crystals
provide nice "seeds" to accelerate the self discharge and grow
larger that become harder to convert back to the active material
when charging.
Please see the 14th para below. from USBMC web link:
http://www.usbattery.com/pages/usbspecs.htm
-
In my case, I do not have any charging where I work. I mostly
charge over night at about 7amps and adjust my charger's finishing
voltage regularly to match the pack temperature at night. The pack
will not fully charge if the charger is set for summer temperatures
in the cold winter. I know from experience, not fully charging a
pack can give it a premature death too.
Tim, I will assume you have a smart charger, and can adjust your
finishing voltage to match your pack temperature and your adjust
charge current for a light charge current.
-If wanted to go cheap, you could put your pack on charge at home
for a couple of hours to raise the pack's surface voltage, and then
do a full charge when at work on their dime.
-If I were in your position: I would charge at a slow rate (7 amps)
while at work, and again at home, fully charging each time: the
Battery rep's ASAP method.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Super, that's what I was hoping to hear. Now I add clampers to each cell,
including the 270Ah one. When the first cell reaches 4.25V, I lower the
current to 2A and keep charging for a while to top off the cells. The only
difference at this point, I think, is that the 270Ah cell should really have
2.7A going through it, but I hope 2A will be okay.
I suppose another possibility would be, before going to the lower current,
to hook a resistor in parallel with the first cell to burn off .7A, then put
2.7A through the string instead of 2A.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 3:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Different Cell Capacities
Bill Dennis wrote:
> Thanks, Victor. Let me ask the question a second way, just to make sure I
> understand, because I wasn't suggesting that a BMS isn't needed. I'm just
> trying to get my thought correct on how cells discharge and charge.
>
> Let's say you have two batteries in series, a 200Ah cell, and a 270Ah
> battery made of three 90Ah cells in parallel. Initially, both are fully
> charged to 4.25V. You then run some amount of amps through them for a
while
> until the 200Ah cell is at 3V.
>
> 1) Will the 270Ah cell be at around 3V, or at a higher voltage?
At higher voltage - it's not as depleted as 200Ah one.
> 2) Now you reverse the process and charge them. Will both reach 4.25V at
> "around" the same time (just like two 200Ah cells in series would), or
will
> one reach 4.25V at some longer time before the other (unlike two 200Ah
cells
> in series)?
Yes, it will reach full charge (about 4.25V) at about the same time -
for a few cycles. Repeated many times, they will diverge from each
other, and no longer get full at the same time while amount of Ah
flowing in and out is the same.
> Thanks.
>
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Question:
Did Wavecrest go belly up?
What was thier mode of death??
No product, too expensive, Not enough capital??
Did they get bought out and moved off shore??
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Trough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 10:05 AM
Subject: Wavecrest fabrication shop up for auction
> Here is a beautiful collection of fabrication and test gear up for
> auction. This is the hardware that Wavecrest used to fabricate and test
> their hub motors.
>
> http://www.americanaai.com/auctions/wavecrest.htm
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> -Ken Trough
> V is for Voltage
> http://visforvoltage.com
> AIM/YM - ktrough
> FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't think they are did yet. A web search brings up
http://www.wavecrestlabs.com/
which has a dead image link, but at the bottom of the page points
to http://www.tidalforce.com/
which also has a dead image link.
That's is not a good sign:
either their webmaster does not know they have work to do, or
the webmaster has not been paid in a while.
http://www.tidalforce.com/
does have products and dealers listed accros the U.S.
At EVS-20 they had a lot of backing ($$$$$$). Where other
Electric Bicycle displays had one or two sales people, Wavecrest
had a dozen (way too many) for the demand for the product.
The bike had power and good performance, but the front wheel
battery pack made the bicycle less stable than a conventional
human power bicycle. Over all a good bike but at the time
of EVS-20, not available.
Perhaps Wavecrest has finished with their motor development
equipment and are selling it off to either regain the capital
or buy new equipment.
Anyone got any other thoughts?
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
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'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmmm perhaps they are in trouble, I found
http://www.greenspeed.us/wavecrest_tidalforce_photos.htm
which says
"Tidalforce electric bicycles are currently out of production and
are no longer available at Electric Cyclery."
and
http://knightbikes.com/page.cfm?PageID=363
which says:
"WaveCrest Laboratories Recalls Electric Bicycles
WaveCrest Laboratories is recalling 100 TidalForce S-750 High
Performance Electric Bicycles because the wheels can collapse,
causing the rider to fall and potentially suffer injuries."
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml05/05593.html
"Customers should stop using the product immediately unless
otherwise instructed"
That does not look good for wavecrest.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well If your going to keep it electric , I'd say good for you and why else
would you be on the list :-) ... I have a New shop in the woods , I'm
calling it the green shed , and if you wanted to put a motor in and work
on it before it goes accross conuntry , I might be able to help , coco
beach is about 90 miles form me .
. Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill & Nancy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: Bradley GT EV kitcar available cheap in Fla on E bay
I bought it, now I have to get to CA. Any recommendations for a reasonable
transport service?
Thanks,
Bill
jerryd wrote:
Hi All,
Here's something from another list you may
like, a really nice looking Bradley-2 EV without batts,
motor, controller in Fla. It looks like one the factory made
EV stock though may just be one made by a customer.
It would make a great EV sportscar or good
freeway EV as it's lightweight, fairly aero. Just what one
needs in an EV.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BRADLEY-GTII-REPLICA-KIT-CAR-FL_W0QQitemZ8046262470
HTH'
Jerry Dycus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I need a motor controller that takes in 276VDC nom.(320V max), and puts out
about 96VDC at 8A cont. and about 10 A peak to control my 1/2 HP power
steering motor. It also needs to take in 12VDC from my ignition to turn the
motor off when the ignition is off.
Any leads here?
Nothing with these specs seem to exist already made.
Thanks
Jacob Harris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There's a gazillion shipping firms out there.
Nearly every one out there is a broker and despite what they say, they'll
use other firms, vehicles and drivers to ship your rig.
I used All American Auto Tranport, I believe...and I wouldn't recommend them
either.
I asked AAAT to assure me they'd use their own rig and driver, that an
enclosed transport and a single rig hauler would be used.
They told me that indeed they would haul my electric car with a single rig
and not load/unload at distribution hubs AND that they'd use their own
truck since I paid for enclosed shipping. They also said they'd pick it up
within 4 days and haul it right away.
Well, I did get enclosed shipping and a single hauler, but that's it.
They contracted the hauling out.
They also didn't pick up the car until about 9days later.
And I paid a premium so they wouldn't outsource the deal: $1300 if I recall
vs under $900 for enclosed haulers bid by other brokers.
My only salvations:
1) the car arrived in perfect shape.
2) the transport was quick (once they picked it up)
3) the hauler was a local, Portland area hauler---and since the bulk
of the money went to the hauler, at least most of the money didn't go
to Florida!
I've read a lot of horror stories about shipping.
Remember, there's lots of competition, and they'll say nearly anything to
get you
to ship with them.
I guess I was lucky.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of kluge
> Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 1:49 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Bradley GT EV kitcar available cheap in Fla on E bay
>
>
> I strongly advise that you ***do not*** use A-1 Auto
> Transport, purportedly of Carson, NV (but actually from California)
>
> >I bought it, now I have to get to CA. Any recommendations for a
> >reasonable transport service?
> >Thanks,
> >Bill
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been having trouble with my emergency brake on my Tropica for a while
now. I keep it parked in the driveway with blocks behind two of the tires just
in case. With the recent rains, I haven't driven it in a while. At 3:30 my
wife called me at work and said my car just ran into hers! Huh? The car had
rolled over the blocks down the driveway and smacked into her Sable wagon
parked
across the driveway. She said it was bad enough to shatter her window. I
asked if anyone was hurt and fortunately no one was even around. I left work
to
deal with the damage. All the way home I thought of her description of her
car and how that might translate to my ABS body on the Tropica. The fiberglass
I could deal with but ABS? I have no experience with. When I got home I was
surprised to find her car quite bent and the Topica almost fine! The brackets
that are glued onto the ABS to attach the body let go and a very small crack
on the wheel well. I actually had to look close to find it! Hurray for
plastic! My batteries are shot so I'll address the broken brackets and the
batteries when the weather improves.
I believe what happened is that my son was leaning on the car and perhaps
the force of him pushing on the car to stand back up was enough force. It
wasn't
his fault. It was mine and I have proper wheel chocks now.
Steve
--- End Message ---
