EV Digest 5272
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Help with Specs
by "Jonathan Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Early Hawker deaths (was Re: help choose best AGM battery for
lawnmower)
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Early Hawker deaths (was Re: help choose best AGM battery for
lawnmower)
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Bizarre Amphour Meter Idea
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Good Boy charger (Re: Looking to build a badder-boy charger)
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Early Hawker deaths (was Re: help choose best AGM battery
for lawnmower)
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Looking to build a badder-boy charger
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Any daily drivers using an advanced battery chemistry?
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Bizarre Amphour Meter Idea
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Any daily drivers using an advanced battery chemistry?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Mechanical calculator, was Re: Bizarre Amphour Meter Idea
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: Early Hawker deaths (was Re: help choose best AGM battery for
lawnmower)
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: LED Headlights and the DOT
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Looking to build a badder-boy charger
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Early Hawker deaths (was Re: help choose best AGM battery for
lawnmower)
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Early Hawker deaths (was Re: help choose best AGM battery for lawnmower)
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
New Energy will sell NessCaps to individuals who know what they are doing,
which means Lee, Victor and a handful of the usual suspects.
Well, one of the great unwashed, Les Mis, -- Student Version, would like
help with the spec sheet to get an outrageous price quote. Anybody every
done such specifying?
What am I trying to accomplish? Extend the life of the floodies and
hopefully improve performance. In theory placing a suitable capacitor module
in parallel with
my 72V lead acid battery system, should mean that energy from regenerative
braking should first go to the capacitors and immediate acceleration should
come from the capacitors first. In stop and go driving, these charge /
discharge cycles should be handled primarily by the capacitors, saving the
batteries.
The main place I am stumped is Energy Storage (in Wh or kJ). What is the
minimum that would provide optimal recover from regenerative braking?
The G.E. motor will take 250 A (350A at the armature), so that is my maximum
current, but then they want to know "holding time" in seconds?
They also ask a number of questions about Typical Cycle Conditions.
Thanks in advance for consideration of my inquiry.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
I know from experience that you can't kill a Hawker by running it
down. Usually by leaving the "ignition" switch off and walking away
from a scooter for awhile, I've run 'em down many times. It may
(probably) shorten the life but it won't kill 'em. I haven't detected
any loss of life so far.
You can't kill *a* hawker. But if you put a run down hawker in a string,
you will blow it to bits as it reverses and gasses. Big mess.
It might be interesting to cut one of those Hawkers open and see what
the damage is. Corrosion is easily seen because the gauze plates will
just kinda crumble in your hands. The glass mat should be literally
dripping with electrolyte. If long-term overcharging is the cause
then the mat will be only moist or even just barely damp.
I have done this with a hammer and chisel. The plates looked good, but
the substrate was dry as a bone.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
I was seriously thinking of machining a few of these open. I have a
mill. Maybe just dishcarge one of them slowly to zero volts, then mill
it open around the top. It looks like there is a glue seam around the
top. Knowing the cause of hugely decreased capacity, will help prevent
it when a new set of batts is chosen. The charger goes into CV mode at
around 360 volts and anywhere from 3 amp or less. When it hits 380v, it
is usually at .5 amp or less.
What do you cut your's open with?
If if gets too messy I'll happily send you a couple.
I went thru all 104 of them and weighed and watered them to match my
new Hawkers. So they are full of water for sure. But that won't change
grid corrosion.
Thanks!
Mike
--- Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:50:51 -0000, "Mike Phillips"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Hi John,
> >
> >I will somehow post the graph of my charger's CC/CV curve. I
> recorded
> >it one day to see what it looked like. Maybe you will see some magic
> >bullet in the numbers. But I don't see it. Other than maybe the fact
> >that the ah's are way too small.
>
> I know from experience that you can't kill a Hawker by running it
> down. Usually by leaving the "ignition" switch off and walking away
> from a scooter for awhile, I've run 'em down many times. It may
> (probably) shorten the life but it won't kill 'em. I haven't
> detected
> any loss of life so far.
>
> I know what Hawker says about a minimum charging rate but I'm not
> sure
> that is as important when there is a high discharge rate involved. I
> know that the Badsey scooter came with a 1 amp charger. The first
> thing a lot of people do is replace the ChiCom batteries with
> Hawkers.
> The guy who bought my Badsey is still commuting to work on it, about
> 5
> years later. I think the minimum charge rate applies to float and
> low
> discharge service.
>
> All you need to do to dry out a hawker or any AGM or gell is supply
> enough current to the fully charged battery to exceed its
> recombination rate. At that point, the H2/O2 are liberated, they
> build pressure until the reliefs lift and then they're gone forever.
> There is very little water in these batteries so death can come
> rapidly.
>
> At the same time water is being lost, excess charging can corrode the
> lead. Since the "plates" in a hawker resemble gauze, there is little
> room for error.
>
> I've sorta revived dried out Hawkers by removing the safety caps,
> adding distilled water, waiting a couple of days for the water to
> diffuse through the glass mat and then charging. The full capacity
> never returns because of the plate corrosion. Allowed to go too far
> the corrosion can completely kill the battery by severing the
> internal
> connections.
>
> It might be interesting to cut one of those Hawkers open and see what
> the damage is. Corrosion is easily seen because the gauze plates
> will
> just kinda crumble in your hands. The glass mat should be literally
> dripping with electrolyte. If long-term overcharging is the cause
> then the mat will be only moist or even just barely damp.
>
> If you don't want to mess with the acid and lead and are curious,
> ship
> me a battery and I'll dissect it and put the photos on my website.
>
> >The other odd thing is you won't find
> >a USE truck with very many miles on it. So I think the problem is
> >universal. With such a small volume of amps flowing back and forth I
> >don't see why the water loss is so high.
>
> If that is the case about the problem being widespread, I'd be
> looking
> directly at the charger. It sure sounds like too much voltage at the
> end to me.
> >
> >Where can I post an Excel spread sheet?
>
> If you just want to send it to me you can use
> http://www.yousendit.com. I don't know where you could post to a
> public place unless one of the photo sites would accept a spreadsheet
> file. I could stick the file on my website if you like. I have
> plenty of room.
>
> John
>
>
> >--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> I've been using those 17ah Hawkers for years on scooter projects.
> I've
> >> found them to be bullet-proof with one exception and that is
> >> overcharging. You can very quickly kill one with too much
> voltage.
> >>
> >> You need to take a look at the charger's voltage. 1.6 amps is
> more
> >> than enough to kill a Hawker if there is sufficient voltage
> available
> >> to force that through a charged pack.
> >>
> >> Hawker is very explicit about charging voltage. If you follow
> their
> >> instructions exactly, the batteries will last a long time. I have
> two
> >> scooters using those 17ah Hawkers with over 4 years on them. I
> have
> >> several out in customers' hands.
> >>
> >> My GoBig scooter uses the 30 ah version and has over 3 years of
> daily
> >> use on them. Relatively severe duty, with >300 battery amps
> during
> >> acceleration being the norm and around 80 amps while cruising at
> full
> >> speed. This scooter has an E-meter and it shows that the pack
> still
> >> has its original capacity. I've never seen another battery that
> could
> >> come even close. Maybe the Optima, though I've not had a chance
> to
> >> use a set long-term.
> >>
> >> I killed a few Hawkers in the beginning while learning to take
> what
> >> they say about charging to heart. Once I started paying attention
> I
> >> never killed another one.
> >>
> >> John
> >> On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:44:08 -0000, "Mike Phillips"
> >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Hi John,
> >> >
> >> >I have experience to the contrary with the 16ah Hawkers. I own
> just
> >> >over 100 of them. I inherited them with my truck. They only had
> 400
> >> >miles of driving cycles on them when I got the vehicle. After
> having
> >> >tested all of them 3 times with a 40 amp load, they have very
> little
> >> >life left after 5000 miles. The charger only puts out 6.5 amps
> into
> >> >the pack. So average would be 1.625 amps per string. Most of them
> were
> >> >severely low on water. I bought 8 new ones to compare the old
> ones to.
> >> >Most took 10ml of water per cell to come back to nominal weight.
> Many
> >> >took 20ml of water per cell to acheive nominal weight. What would
> >> >cause such a loss of water with such light loads and charging?
> >> >
> >> >Since there are 4 strings of 26, none of the strings are exposed
> to
> >> >much of a load. The truck is limited to 200 amps draw from the
> pack.
> >> >So 50 amps per string is not much stress for a Hawker.
> >> >
> >> >So I think to their longevity depends on the way they are used.
> In my
> >> >truck they suck. The poor guy who put them in paid $7k. There may
> be
> >> >better uses for them than EV street driving.
> >> >
> >> >Mike
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Wayland <ev@> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Dmitri Hurik wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > Ok, not exactly EV, but if anybody could help that would be
> >cool. I
> >> >> > need an AGM battery for starting an ICE lawnmower that has
> low
> >> >> > self-discharge and long life. Probably around the 12-14ah
> range. I
> >> >> > looked at the Hawker Odyssey 13ah.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> You'd be hard-pressed to find a better quality battery.
> >> >>
> >> >> > They claim it's really tough....
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> They are 'extremely' tough. Search the EV list archives for my
> many
> >> >> posts about 'the Amazing Hawkers', and many posts from others
> >reporting
> >> >> the same.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >can sustain being left at 0% charge for weeks/months and
> still
> >> >recover
> >> >> ....
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Hmmm...that's a tall claim. I 'have' had this exact battery
> taken
> >down
> >> >> to zero volts and left there for three months, and upon a
> >recharge, it
> >> >> came back without any cell reversals. Now, did it still have
> the
> >same
> >> >> capacity? I doubt it. You can't get away from permanent
> sulfation.
> >> >> In general, it's never good for any lead acid battery to do
> this.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >and sit for years...
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> This is absolutely true with Hawkers. I have quite a few 8 year
> old
> >> >> Hawker 16 ahr versions that have been sitting for long lengths
> of
> >time
> >> >> that still work well. Again though, there is going to be some
> >permanent
> >> >> sulfation that will occur if you let a battery sit so long
> unused
> >and
> >> >> uncharged, so they really can't sit for years and power-up to
> 100%
> >> >capacity.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > ....but for $80+ seems like a bit much for just a 13ah
> battery.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Not when that same battery can deliver 500+ amps repeatedly
> >without any
> >> >> noticeable degradation of the battery! 28 of the slightly
> larger
> >16ahr
> >> >> version of this battery powered my race car at 750 amps for 13
> >seconds
> >> >> to a world record back in 2000. Hawker toughness and long life
> are
> >> >> legendary on this EVDL. The internal inter-cell straps are very
> >robust
> >> >> and can sustain high currents without melting. Small Hawker
> >batteries
> >> >> can deliver HUGE currents and are worlds away from ordinary
> >> >batteries of
> >> >> the same size and weight. All of these traits may not be
> >applicable for
> >> >> you though, for merely starting a lawnmower.
> >> >>
> >> >> > Speaking of Hawker, what are people's general opinion on
> Hawker
> >> >> > batteries?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> See my web page about White Zombie, for how I feel about Hawker
> >> >batteries:
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.plasmaboyracing.com
> >> >>
> >> >> See Ya......John Wayland
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> ---
> >> John De Armond
> >> See my website for my current email address
> >> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> >> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> >> A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph
> Waldo
> >Emerson
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo
> Emerson
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:53:22 -0800, "Myles Twete"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> As long as you don't mind it counting only in one direction; these
>> "stepper" clock motors aren't reversible, and you can't have negative
>> frequency.
>
>You guys aren't gonna make me disassemble my Milburn's 1921 Sangamo meter
>are you...?
I'd LOVE to see the inside of it. I have boxes of conventional power
meters. I've been kicking around some ideas for converting one to DC
to use as an amp-hour meter. I'd like to see how they did it.
>Incidentally, the Sangamo's AH gage needle turns CCW from a reading of ZERO
>as it discharges.
>This way it resembles a classic fuel gauge with the needle cruising slowly
>to the left.
>
>Also, inset into the lower portion of the gauge is another needle meter
>which reads battery electric current in amps---this gauge goes from -100amps
>to +50amps (charging).
>
>If they only had digital and analog electronics in 1921 we'd have had the
>E-meter 75years earlier...
I'll be that Sangamo meter is more accurate over the long term than
any of the electronic meters. The mechanical integrator doesn't
suffer long term drift like most any electronic form does.
I have several brands of electronic watt-hour power meters that are
supposed to replace the electromechanical ones. I've played around
with them quite a bit looking at the performance on the edges. The
only way to keep an electronic integrator from accumulating counts
over the long term with no load is to define a minimum current and
clamp the integrator rate to zero. That's what the Emeter does and
also what these electronic power meters do. The result is that small
loads like, say, an electric clock do not register on the electronic
meter while the mechanical meter ever so slowly turns and registers
the usage.
This shows up graphically with the E-meter when a vehicle is allowed
to sit with the main contactor open for a period of time. The meter
will accumulate discharge AH over time. Probably from input offset
errors in the shunt input or maybe thermocouple effect.
For example, I can leave my GoBig scooter with the contactor open and
the charger not plugged in. It'll accumulate a 'discharge' of up to
15 AH per week. The amps display is zero but occasionally the last
digit will flash a "1". 15 AH is half the pack's capacity. The
E-meter thinks the pack is half-discharged when in reality the E-meter
had drained maybe a couple AHs. Your mechanical meter would not
suffer from that error.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was thinking that designing a power supply like the ones shown here
on the IRF website, could be a great place to start with making a
power factor corrected charger. I know a power supply would need some
control circuitry added to act like a charger.
http://ec.irf.com/webulator/ir1150/detail.do
You have to sign up with IRF but it's worth it. This calculator they
have gives you the values of the compents for a 300w to 4kw power
supply that is power factor corrected.
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:42 PM 3/23/2006, you wrote:
<< snip >>
>The other odd thing is you won't find
>a USE truck with very many miles on it. So I think the problem is
>universal. With such a small volume of amps flowing back and forth I
>don't see why the water loss is so high.
If that is the case about the problem being widespread, I'd be looking
directly at the charger. It sure sounds like too much voltage at the
end to me.
<< snip >>
John
This pack is 4 strings of 26 batteries?
That is a long string to start with and to have 4 of them paralleled makes
things worse. It would be interesting know how the wiring is done, does
the charge and discharge current stand any chance of being equally divided
between the strings.
If I were doing the wiring, the four strings would be kept separate until
the last possible connections to the motor and/or controller and the length
of wire and number of connections in each string would be the same. Maybe
even use wire a little on the small side or a few extra feet coiled up
someplace. Also during the finish charge each string would have its own
separate 0.5 amp(or whatever is recommended for this battery) light bulb in
series.
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Have you considered just wiring them up in strings of 10 and then just
using a standard 12V charger on them?
Yeah, but then they will charge unevenly. Even with the elec-trak, I
have noticed I can see the 3 12 volt groupings by how they gas. They
swing into sync, but why not just do em all at once.
And doing 25 of them would take forever. By the time I was done the
first ones would have self-discharged a bit :-)
Chris
Aside from the fact that this should be safer (though slower) you could
also monitor individual cells during charge to insure they don't get
overcharged.
Ok, I have a problem. I am putting 250 of the flodded BB600 NiCD cells
into the truck and I need a way to do an initial charge of them. I don't
have to get them to 375 volts, but it would be nice. I do need to get
them to just enough to get them to about 325-350 volts so the Dolphin
can see them and take it from there. Or I could march up to 375 volts.
Is it possible to build a 240 volt based "really bad boy" charger with
some form of basic current limiting? Like a rectifier with a pair of
light bulbs in series with the output?
This is *not* going to be anything more than a one-shot to comission
charge these batteries. But I need a good sized current (10a or so
@300). I could charge the batteries in smaller batches, but the best way
it seems is to comission them in one big shot.
As bad-boys are really not safe, manual safety protocols will include
not being near the truck while this is plugged in, and not letting
anyone near said truck while this is plugged in (I will have a bat and a
book to keep people away).
Thoughts?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark,
ProEV's Electric Imp is street legal and I regularly get to drive it on the
roads even though racing is it's primary mission. It makes running errands
pretty entertaining<G>. www.ProEV.com
The car is powered by Kokam's 70 amp-hr lithium polymer cells.
http://www.proev.com/P1Batt.htm. It's 20kW pack weighs 300 lbs.
Kokam's have been available for over two years. They are pricy but Kokam is
reporting that the latest version (with a new cathode design) will now last
1,400 100% discharge cycles (vs. >500 that the cells we (ProEV) have are
rated at). According to their graphs, 80% discharge cycles have been tested
to 2,500 cycles and were still at 94% capacity.
http://www.kokam.com/english/product/battery_main.html
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Freidberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 3:24 AM
Subject: Any daily drivers using an advanced battery chemistry?
Is anyone driving a street EV with a commercially available battery pack
other then lead-acid or flooded Nicad?
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Myles Twete wrote:
> You guys aren't gonna make me disassemble my Milburn's 1921 Sangamo
> meter are you...?
No, of course not. We already know what's in it! :-)
The old DC watthour meters were based on a brushed motor. The armature
ran off the pack voltage, and the field on the load current. Since Speed
= K x Varmature x Ifield, the speed is proportional to the power used. I
don't know if they did, but it would have been straightforward to
include a Peukert correction as well, by adding a magnet to the field.
An electromechanical computer!
> If they only had digital and analog electronics in 1921 we'd have had
> the E-meter 75years earlier...
They did! There is a rich and amazing field of mechanical computers
(both analog and digital). Look up the Curta pocket calculator some
time. Adds, subtracts, multiplies, divides, squares, roots; and all
mechanical!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Flat cells. Wow, that's just mind-blowing. Easy to cool, too!
I saw Kokam makes cells up to 240AH. Not clear on the shape, though.
Danny
ProEV wrote:
Hi Mark,
ProEV's Electric Imp is street legal and I regularly get to drive it
on the roads even though racing is it's primary mission. It makes
running errands pretty entertaining<G>. www.ProEV.com
The car is powered by Kokam's 70 amp-hr lithium polymer cells.
http://www.proev.com/P1Batt.htm. It's 20kW pack weighs 300 lbs.
Kokam's have been available for over two years. They are pricy but
Kokam is reporting that the latest version (with a new cathode design)
will now last 1,400 100% discharge cycles (vs. >500 that the cells we
(ProEV) have are rated at). According to their graphs, 80% discharge
cycles have been tested to 2,500 cycles and were still at 94%
capacity. http://www.kokam.com/english/product/battery_main.html
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<< They did! There is a rich and amazing field of mechanical computers
(both analog and digital). Look up the Curta pocket calculator some
time. Adds, subtracts, multiplies, divides, squares, roots; and all
mechanical! >>>
What an elegant way to do math:
http://www.patbelford.com/projects/curta/index.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 15:42:18 -0500, Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:50:51 -0000, "Mike Phillips"
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>Hi John,
>>
>>I will somehow post the graph of my charger's CC/CV curve. I recorded
>>it one day to see what it looked like. Maybe you will see some magic
>>bullet in the numbers. But I don't see it. Other than maybe the fact
>>that the ah's are way too small.
>
>I know from experience that you can't kill a Hawker by running it
>down. Usually by leaving the "ignition" switch off and walking away
Erp!!! Make that "on" ^^^
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well I do not know about anyone elses town and what cops look for. But on the
check list I had when looking into custom built vehicles- I was verifiing how
hard it would be to register a homebuilt, my DMV inspector handed me a check
list and it included on that list was Federal D.O.T. recognized headlights. Now
extra lights for off roading on a overhead light bar and fog lamps are exempt
from those rules. However it is one of the items on the checklist to register
the vehicle. And for those who question on wheither they have DOT approved
headlights you can look on your own vehicle and look along the rim and it will
have DOT approved engraved on the lens. And yes a friend of mine lost his
registration till the light were swapped with DOT approved headlights. He tried
to upgrade to HID before they were approved in US. He got them from a European
friend who shipped them here. The state pulled his registration and it was a
mess. Again this is an experience a friend had and it wa!
s a mess.
Had he waited a year he would not have had a problem.
Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I hate to burst the bubble of this
exciting topic but unless D.O.T.
> approved you will not be able to use any of these ideas. If caught you
> could loose your registration if not your license.
Not very likely. There are MANY non DOT approved lighting packages out
on the road today. More than there ever have been before. Some locations
specifically target these for ticketing (not license revocation nor
registration revocation), but most areas do not. So long as your lights
are aimed properly and so long as they do the job, many people get away
with non DOT lights.
There are a dozen or more stores in my town that sell illegal lighting
packages and I live in a small town. If these really were costing people
their licenses or their cars, there would not be so many vendors. At
worst, you get a "fix-it" ticket, and that is if the cop is looking to
give you a bad time already.
Fortunately, as you rightly pointed out, PEVs are essentially exempt
from what little scrutiny exists.
Hope this helps!
-Ken Trough
V is for Voltage
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 14:57:11 -0500, Christopher Zach
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I have a homemade "slightly mis-behaving boy" charger that consists of
>> a big variac, several Q-H lamps, a huge transformer, rectifier and
>> filter caps. All mounted on a heavy duty hand truck. It's capable of
>> 250 amps up to 45 volts with 240 volt input. I switch the lamps in
>> and out of the transformer primary to regulate the output current. I
>> used lamps on the primary because they were VASTLY cheaper than
>> equivalent lamps on the secondary.
>
>Just a quickie, do you put the lamps in *series* or in parallel to the pack?
>
>I would think that if you put it in series, the lamp would act as a
>resistor and limit the current to the bulb rating, correct?
I hook 'em in parallel. I have 5 on the charger, each with a switch.
I also have a set of binding posts in the circuit so that I can tie in
more lights if I need to reduce the current below what one light will
provide.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:04:54 -0800 (PST), Mike Phillips
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>John,
>
>I was seriously thinking of machining a few of these open. I have a
>mill. Maybe just dishcarge one of them slowly to zero volts, then mill
>it open around the top. It looks like there is a glue seam around the
>top. Knowing the cause of hugely decreased capacity, will help prevent
>it when a new set of batts is chosen. The charger goes into CV mode at
>around 360 volts and anywhere from 3 amp or less. When it hits 380v, it
>is usually at .5 amp or less.
>
>What do you cut your's open with?
The first one, a bare hacksaw blade, not wanting to get acid on any
tools of value. After I saw how the case was put together, I used a
nichrome wire electrically heated red hot to burn through the case at
the glued seam. Very fast and very slick.
>
>If if gets too messy I'll happily send you a couple.
>
>I went thru all 104 of them and weighed and watered them to match my
>new Hawkers. So they are full of water for sure. But that won't change
>grid corrosion.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>--- Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:50:51 -0000, "Mike Phillips"
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> >Hi John,
>> >
>> >I will somehow post the graph of my charger's CC/CV curve. I
>> recorded
>> >it one day to see what it looked like. Maybe you will see some magic
>> >bullet in the numbers. But I don't see it. Other than maybe the fact
>> >that the ah's are way too small.
>>
>> I know from experience that you can't kill a Hawker by running it
>> down. Usually by leaving the "ignition" switch off and walking away
>> from a scooter for awhile, I've run 'em down many times. It may
>> (probably) shorten the life but it won't kill 'em. I haven't
>> detected
>> any loss of life so far.
>>
>> I know what Hawker says about a minimum charging rate but I'm not
>> sure
>> that is as important when there is a high discharge rate involved. I
>> know that the Badsey scooter came with a 1 amp charger. The first
>> thing a lot of people do is replace the ChiCom batteries with
>> Hawkers.
>> The guy who bought my Badsey is still commuting to work on it, about
>> 5
>> years later. I think the minimum charge rate applies to float and
>> low
>> discharge service.
>>
>> All you need to do to dry out a hawker or any AGM or gell is supply
>> enough current to the fully charged battery to exceed its
>> recombination rate. At that point, the H2/O2 are liberated, they
>> build pressure until the reliefs lift and then they're gone forever.
>> There is very little water in these batteries so death can come
>> rapidly.
>>
>> At the same time water is being lost, excess charging can corrode the
>> lead. Since the "plates" in a hawker resemble gauze, there is little
>> room for error.
>>
>> I've sorta revived dried out Hawkers by removing the safety caps,
>> adding distilled water, waiting a couple of days for the water to
>> diffuse through the glass mat and then charging. The full capacity
>> never returns because of the plate corrosion. Allowed to go too far
>> the corrosion can completely kill the battery by severing the
>> internal
>> connections.
>>
>> It might be interesting to cut one of those Hawkers open and see what
>> the damage is. Corrosion is easily seen because the gauze plates
>> will
>> just kinda crumble in your hands. The glass mat should be literally
>> dripping with electrolyte. If long-term overcharging is the cause
>> then the mat will be only moist or even just barely damp.
>>
>> If you don't want to mess with the acid and lead and are curious,
>> ship
>> me a battery and I'll dissect it and put the photos on my website.
>>
>> >The other odd thing is you won't find
>> >a USE truck with very many miles on it. So I think the problem is
>> >universal. With such a small volume of amps flowing back and forth I
>> >don't see why the water loss is so high.
>>
>> If that is the case about the problem being widespread, I'd be
>> looking
>> directly at the charger. It sure sounds like too much voltage at the
>> end to me.
>> >
>> >Where can I post an Excel spread sheet?
>>
>> If you just want to send it to me you can use
>> http://www.yousendit.com. I don't know where you could post to a
>> public place unless one of the photo sites would accept a spreadsheet
>> file. I could stick the file on my website if you like. I have
>> plenty of room.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> >--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I've been using those 17ah Hawkers for years on scooter projects.
>> I've
>> >> found them to be bullet-proof with one exception and that is
>> >> overcharging. You can very quickly kill one with too much
>> voltage.
>> >>
>> >> You need to take a look at the charger's voltage. 1.6 amps is
>> more
>> >> than enough to kill a Hawker if there is sufficient voltage
>> available
>> >> to force that through a charged pack.
>> >>
>> >> Hawker is very explicit about charging voltage. If you follow
>> their
>> >> instructions exactly, the batteries will last a long time. I have
>> two
>> >> scooters using those 17ah Hawkers with over 4 years on them. I
>> have
>> >> several out in customers' hands.
>> >>
>> >> My GoBig scooter uses the 30 ah version and has over 3 years of
>> daily
>> >> use on them. Relatively severe duty, with >300 battery amps
>> during
>> >> acceleration being the norm and around 80 amps while cruising at
>> full
>> >> speed. This scooter has an E-meter and it shows that the pack
>> still
>> >> has its original capacity. I've never seen another battery that
>> could
>> >> come even close. Maybe the Optima, though I've not had a chance
>> to
>> >> use a set long-term.
>> >>
>> >> I killed a few Hawkers in the beginning while learning to take
>> what
>> >> they say about charging to heart. Once I started paying attention
>> I
>> >> never killed another one.
>> >>
>> >> John
>> >> On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:44:08 -0000, "Mike Phillips"
>> >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Hi John,
>> >> >
>> >> >I have experience to the contrary with the 16ah Hawkers. I own
>> just
>> >> >over 100 of them. I inherited them with my truck. They only had
>> 400
>> >> >miles of driving cycles on them when I got the vehicle. After
>> having
>> >> >tested all of them 3 times with a 40 amp load, they have very
>> little
>> >> >life left after 5000 miles. The charger only puts out 6.5 amps
>> into
>> >> >the pack. So average would be 1.625 amps per string. Most of them
>> were
>> >> >severely low on water. I bought 8 new ones to compare the old
>> ones to.
>> >> >Most took 10ml of water per cell to come back to nominal weight.
>> Many
>> >> >took 20ml of water per cell to acheive nominal weight. What would
>> >> >cause such a loss of water with such light loads and charging?
>> >> >
>> >> >Since there are 4 strings of 26, none of the strings are exposed
>> to
>> >> >much of a load. The truck is limited to 200 amps draw from the
>> pack.
>> >> >So 50 amps per string is not much stress for a Hawker.
>> >> >
>> >> >So I think to their longevity depends on the way they are used.
>> In my
>> >> >truck they suck. The poor guy who put them in paid $7k. There may
>> be
>> >> >better uses for them than EV street driving.
>> >> >
>> >> >Mike
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Wayland <ev@> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Dmitri Hurik wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Ok, not exactly EV, but if anybody could help that would be
>> >cool. I
>> >> >> > need an AGM battery for starting an ICE lawnmower that has
>> low
>> >> >> > self-discharge and long life. Probably around the 12-14ah
>> range. I
>> >> >> > looked at the Hawker Odyssey 13ah.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> You'd be hard-pressed to find a better quality battery.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > They claim it's really tough....
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> They are 'extremely' tough. Search the EV list archives for my
>> many
>> >> >> posts about 'the Amazing Hawkers', and many posts from others
>> >reporting
>> >> >> the same.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >can sustain being left at 0% charge for weeks/months and
>> still
>> >> >recover
>> >> >> ....
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hmmm...that's a tall claim. I 'have' had this exact battery
>> taken
>> >down
>> >> >> to zero volts and left there for three months, and upon a
>> >recharge, it
>> >> >> came back without any cell reversals. Now, did it still have
>> the
>> >same
>> >> >> capacity? I doubt it. You can't get away from permanent
>> sulfation.
>> >> >> In general, it's never good for any lead acid battery to do
>> this.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >and sit for years...
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> This is absolutely true with Hawkers. I have quite a few 8 year
>> old
>> >> >> Hawker 16 ahr versions that have been sitting for long lengths
>> of
>> >time
>> >> >> that still work well. Again though, there is going to be some
>> >permanent
>> >> >> sulfation that will occur if you let a battery sit so long
>> unused
>> >and
>> >> >> uncharged, so they really can't sit for years and power-up to
>> 100%
>> >> >capacity.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > ....but for $80+ seems like a bit much for just a 13ah
>> battery.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Not when that same battery can deliver 500+ amps repeatedly
>> >without any
>> >> >> noticeable degradation of the battery! 28 of the slightly
>> larger
>> >16ahr
>> >> >> version of this battery powered my race car at 750 amps for 13
>> >seconds
>> >> >> to a world record back in 2000. Hawker toughness and long life
>> are
>> >> >> legendary on this EVDL. The internal inter-cell straps are very
>> >robust
>> >> >> and can sustain high currents without melting. Small Hawker
>> >batteries
>> >> >> can deliver HUGE currents and are worlds away from ordinary
>> >> >batteries of
>> >> >> the same size and weight. All of these traits may not be
>> >applicable for
>> >> >> you though, for merely starting a lawnmower.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Speaking of Hawker, what are people's general opinion on
>> Hawker
>> >> >> > batteries?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> See my web page about White Zombie, for how I feel about Hawker
>> >> >batteries:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://www.plasmaboyracing.com
>> >> >>
>> >> >> See Ya......John Wayland
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> ---
>> >> John De Armond
>> >> See my website for my current email address
>> >> http://www.johngsbbq.com
>> >> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>> >> A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph
>> Waldo
>> >Emerson
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> ---
>> John De Armond
>> See my website for my current email address
>> http://www.johngsbbq.com
>> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>> A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo
>> Emerson
>>
>>
>
>
>Here's to the crazy ones.
>The misfits.
>The rebels.
>The troublemakers.
>The round pegs in the square holes.
>The ones who see things differently
>The ones that change the world!!
>
>www.RotorDesign.com
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Did it matter the state of charge it was in when you started the surgery?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:04:54 -0800 (PST), Mike Phillips
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >John,
> >
> >I was seriously thinking of machining a few of these open. I have a
> >mill. Maybe just dishcarge one of them slowly to zero volts, then mill
> >it open around the top. It looks like there is a glue seam around the
> >top. Knowing the cause of hugely decreased capacity, will help prevent
> >it when a new set of batts is chosen. The charger goes into CV mode at
> >around 360 volts and anywhere from 3 amp or less. When it hits 380v, it
> >is usually at .5 amp or less.
> >
> >What do you cut your's open with?
>
> The first one, a bare hacksaw blade, not wanting to get acid on any
> tools of value. After I saw how the case was put together, I used a
> nichrome wire electrically heated red hot to burn through the case at
> the glued seam. Very fast and very slick.
>
> >
> >If if gets too messy I'll happily send you a couple.
> >
> >I went thru all 104 of them and weighed and watered them to match my
> >new Hawkers. So they are full of water for sure. But that won't change
> >grid corrosion.
> >
> >Thanks!
> >
> >Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >--- Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:50:51 -0000, "Mike Phillips"
> >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Hi John,
> >> >
> >> >I will somehow post the graph of my charger's CC/CV curve. I
> >> recorded
> >> >it one day to see what it looked like. Maybe you will see some magic
> >> >bullet in the numbers. But I don't see it. Other than maybe the fact
> >> >that the ah's are way too small.
> >>
> >> I know from experience that you can't kill a Hawker by running it
> >> down. Usually by leaving the "ignition" switch off and walking away
> >> from a scooter for awhile, I've run 'em down many times. It may
> >> (probably) shorten the life but it won't kill 'em. I haven't
> >> detected
> >> any loss of life so far.
> >>
> >> I know what Hawker says about a minimum charging rate but I'm not
> >> sure
> >> that is as important when there is a high discharge rate involved. I
> >> know that the Badsey scooter came with a 1 amp charger. The first
> >> thing a lot of people do is replace the ChiCom batteries with
> >> Hawkers.
> >> The guy who bought my Badsey is still commuting to work on it, about
> >> 5
> >> years later. I think the minimum charge rate applies to float and
> >> low
> >> discharge service.
> >>
> >> All you need to do to dry out a hawker or any AGM or gell is supply
> >> enough current to the fully charged battery to exceed its
> >> recombination rate. At that point, the H2/O2 are liberated, they
> >> build pressure until the reliefs lift and then they're gone forever.
> >> There is very little water in these batteries so death can come
> >> rapidly.
> >>
> >> At the same time water is being lost, excess charging can corrode the
> >> lead. Since the "plates" in a hawker resemble gauze, there is little
> >> room for error.
> >>
> >> I've sorta revived dried out Hawkers by removing the safety caps,
> >> adding distilled water, waiting a couple of days for the water to
> >> diffuse through the glass mat and then charging. The full capacity
> >> never returns because of the plate corrosion. Allowed to go too far
> >> the corrosion can completely kill the battery by severing the
> >> internal
> >> connections.
> >>
> >> It might be interesting to cut one of those Hawkers open and see what
> >> the damage is. Corrosion is easily seen because the gauze plates
> >> will
> >> just kinda crumble in your hands. The glass mat should be literally
> >> dripping with electrolyte. If long-term overcharging is the cause
> >> then the mat will be only moist or even just barely damp.
> >>
> >> If you don't want to mess with the acid and lead and are curious,
> >> ship
> >> me a battery and I'll dissect it and put the photos on my website.
> >>
> >> >The other odd thing is you won't find
> >> >a USE truck with very many miles on it. So I think the problem is
> >> >universal. With such a small volume of amps flowing back and forth I
> >> >don't see why the water loss is so high.
> >>
> >> If that is the case about the problem being widespread, I'd be
> >> looking
> >> directly at the charger. It sure sounds like too much voltage at the
> >> end to me.
> >> >
> >> >Where can I post an Excel spread sheet?
> >>
> >> If you just want to send it to me you can use
> >> http://www.yousendit.com. I don't know where you could post to a
> >> public place unless one of the photo sites would accept a spreadsheet
> >> file. I could stick the file on my website if you like. I have
> >> plenty of room.
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >>
> >> >--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Neon John <ev@> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> I've been using those 17ah Hawkers for years on scooter projects.
> >> I've
> >> >> found them to be bullet-proof with one exception and that is
> >> >> overcharging. You can very quickly kill one with too much
> >> voltage.
> >> >>
> >> >> You need to take a look at the charger's voltage. 1.6 amps is
> >> more
> >> >> than enough to kill a Hawker if there is sufficient voltage
> >> available
> >> >> to force that through a charged pack.
> >> >>
> >> >> Hawker is very explicit about charging voltage. If you follow
> >> their
> >> >> instructions exactly, the batteries will last a long time. I have
> >> two
> >> >> scooters using those 17ah Hawkers with over 4 years on them. I
> >> have
> >> >> several out in customers' hands.
> >> >>
> >> >> My GoBig scooter uses the 30 ah version and has over 3 years of
> >> daily
> >> >> use on them. Relatively severe duty, with >300 battery amps
> >> during
> >> >> acceleration being the norm and around 80 amps while cruising at
> >> full
> >> >> speed. This scooter has an E-meter and it shows that the pack
> >> still
> >> >> has its original capacity. I've never seen another battery that
> >> could
> >> >> come even close. Maybe the Optima, though I've not had a chance
> >> to
> >> >> use a set long-term.
> >> >>
> >> >> I killed a few Hawkers in the beginning while learning to take
> >> what
> >> >> they say about charging to heart. Once I started paying attention
> >> I
> >> >> never killed another one.
> >> >>
> >> >> John
> >> >> On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:44:08 -0000, "Mike Phillips"
> >> >> <mikep_95133@> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >Hi John,
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I have experience to the contrary with the 16ah Hawkers. I own
> >> just
> >> >> >over 100 of them. I inherited them with my truck. They only had
> >> 400
> >> >> >miles of driving cycles on them when I got the vehicle. After
> >> having
> >> >> >tested all of them 3 times with a 40 amp load, they have very
> >> little
> >> >> >life left after 5000 miles. The charger only puts out 6.5 amps
> >> into
> >> >> >the pack. So average would be 1.625 amps per string. Most of them
> >> were
> >> >> >severely low on water. I bought 8 new ones to compare the old
> >> ones to.
> >> >> >Most took 10ml of water per cell to come back to nominal weight.
> >> Many
> >> >> >took 20ml of water per cell to acheive nominal weight. What would
> >> >> >cause such a loss of water with such light loads and charging?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Since there are 4 strings of 26, none of the strings are exposed
> >> to
> >> >> >much of a load. The truck is limited to 200 amps draw from the
> >> pack.
> >> >> >So 50 amps per string is not much stress for a Hawker.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >So I think to their longevity depends on the way they are used.
> >> In my
> >> >> >truck they suck. The poor guy who put them in paid $7k. There may
> >> be
> >> >> >better uses for them than EV street driving.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Mike
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Wayland <ev@> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Dmitri Hurik wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > Ok, not exactly EV, but if anybody could help that would be
> >> >cool. I
> >> >> >> > need an AGM battery for starting an ICE lawnmower that has
> >> low
> >> >> >> > self-discharge and long life. Probably around the 12-14ah
> >> range. I
> >> >> >> > looked at the Hawker Odyssey 13ah.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> You'd be hard-pressed to find a better quality battery.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > They claim it's really tough....
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> They are 'extremely' tough. Search the EV list archives for my
> >> many
> >> >> >> posts about 'the Amazing Hawkers', and many posts from others
> >> >reporting
> >> >> >> the same.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >can sustain being left at 0% charge for weeks/months and
> >> still
> >> >> >recover
> >> >> >> ....
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Hmmm...that's a tall claim. I 'have' had this exact battery
> >> taken
> >> >down
> >> >> >> to zero volts and left there for three months, and upon a
> >> >recharge, it
> >> >> >> came back without any cell reversals. Now, did it still have
> >> the
> >> >same
> >> >> >> capacity? I doubt it. You can't get away from permanent
> >> sulfation.
> >> >> >> In general, it's never good for any lead acid battery to do
> >> this.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >and sit for years...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> This is absolutely true with Hawkers. I have quite a few 8 year
> >> old
> >> >> >> Hawker 16 ahr versions that have been sitting for long lengths
> >> of
> >> >time
> >> >> >> that still work well. Again though, there is going to be some
> >> >permanent
> >> >> >> sulfation that will occur if you let a battery sit so long
> >> unused
> >> >and
> >> >> >> uncharged, so they really can't sit for years and power-up to
> >> 100%
> >> >> >capacity.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > ....but for $80+ seems like a bit much for just a 13ah
> >> battery.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Not when that same battery can deliver 500+ amps repeatedly
> >> >without any
> >> >> >> noticeable degradation of the battery! 28 of the slightly
> >> larger
> >> >16ahr
> >> >> >> version of this battery powered my race car at 750 amps for 13
> >> >seconds
> >> >> >> to a world record back in 2000. Hawker toughness and long life
> >> are
> >> >> >> legendary on this EVDL. The internal inter-cell straps are very
> >> >robust
> >> >> >> and can sustain high currents without melting. Small Hawker
> >> >batteries
> >> >> >> can deliver HUGE currents and are worlds away from ordinary
> >> >> >batteries of
> >> >> >> the same size and weight. All of these traits may not be
> >> >applicable for
> >> >> >> you though, for merely starting a lawnmower.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > Speaking of Hawker, what are people's general opinion on
> >> Hawker
> >> >> >> > batteries?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> See my web page about White Zombie, for how I feel about Hawker
> >> >> >batteries:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> http://www.plasmaboyracing.com
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> See Ya......John Wayland
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> ---
> >> >> John De Armond
> >> >> See my website for my current email address
> >> >> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> >> >> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> >> >> A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph
> >> Waldo
> >> >Emerson
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> ---
> >> John De Armond
> >> See my website for my current email address
> >> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> >> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> >> A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo
> >> Emerson
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >Here's to the crazy ones.
> >The misfits.
> >The rebels.
> >The troublemakers.
> >The round pegs in the square holes.
> >The ones who see things differently
> >The ones that change the world!!
> >
> >www.RotorDesign.com
> >
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo
Emerson
>
--- End Message ---
