EV Digest 5287
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) PFC-20 and regulator woes
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Jim's Warp Motor "cleanup"
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: toe, was: camber
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
4) Re: toe, was: camber
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Jim's Warp Motor "cleanup"
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: toe, was: camber
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Congratulations to Matt Graham and Lowell Simmons!
by "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) article: Canadian electric vehicle industry gets mobilized
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Does anyone know the Amp rating of the various GE EV-1 controllers?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Congratulations to Matt Graham and Lowell Simmons!
by "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Congratulations to Matt Graham and Lowell Simmons!
by "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I think I may have a problem with a Mk2b regulator and my PFC-20
charger.
One of my regulators, when connected to the REGBUS, caused the charger
to immediately stop charging. I believe the blue light would come on
solid, but I can't verify it any more - see below. It's not the REGBUS
cables - I've tried it in different places with different cables.
If the suspected bad regulator was not on the REGBUS then charging
seemed to be taking place. The voltage would rise, and the regulators
would flash green, and the amber light on the charger would flash along
with them making a clicking sound every time a regulator kicked in.
Eventually the timer light would be solid blue and the batteries would
be gently fizzing.
While troubleshooting, I did something that caused the PFC-20 to emit a
quiet buzzing sound and a bad smell. Now it doesn't appear to be
charging.
I believe the thing I did just before the smell was to unplug the
REGBUS cable from the bad regulator, which was on the far end of the
daisy chain from the charger at the time.
Now when I turn on the charger, the green POWER LED comes on, and the
red WARN LED blinks twice and goes out. The LIMITS and TIMER LEDs stay
off. If the amps knob is turned all the way down it doesn't buzz, but
as you turn up the amps the buzzing noise gets louder. It's never very
loud, though.
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Doug
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Don
First, thanks for the kind words, i put alot of time and heart into these
babies. To answer your questions alot of what I'm "attempting" to do is get
the armatures to hold together under higher rpm's. Adding additional banding
at both the front riser and rear knuckle areas is to keep the windings from
being thrown out due to centrifical force. John Wayland has calulated he's
spinning at 7200 rpm's at 106 mph (and these motors get pretty hot when he's
racing multible runs). I've seen both ADC 9" and Warp 9" motors blowing out at
7000, and thats cold running. So the bigger they are the less they like to
spin fast. I'm still waiting on the Kevlar so I can start wrapping the comm's
for the same reasons, to keep them together for those who push the envolope.
Even then there are those daily drivers who have had their hard knocks with
mishaps and have blown the comm's or on some just cracked them. When the comm
is caught before it explodes it results in the cracks and sav!
es the
brushes and ring, which I will not just "turn and cut" due to it being a hand
granade waiting to happen.
As to upgrading the Warp holders there is only one style that one could go to
and that's the machined brass ones and they are spendy. They have a bridge that
seperates the two brushes (like the ADC holders) and so you'd loose some brush
material if unmodded. I just completed Rod's Gone Postal front motor mods and
I removed the brush bridge and installed a larger (modified brush) to fill the
gap (I'll post some pics tonight). Now if one were to remove that bridge on
these brass holders on the GE style then the OEM Warp brush would fit the new
holder.
Trimming 30 pounds off this motor just isn't gonna happen, now off a Siamese
setup maybe, as you loose a DE plate and a bearing, part of a shaft, ect. When
I shorten a motor it's important to remember that you must also machine the
shaft. I also have to trim both sides or rotate the housing so that the
armature laminations and the pole shoes line up correctly. When I trim up a
housing (for weight and cosmetics) it is just to the lowest point of the
housings thickness where I machine down the last of the rough surface and weld
pits (you need as much there as you can) (although I'll be pushing that issue
to)(maybe, lmao).
Anyways I hope this answers your questions.
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Jim,
I was just reading your web site about the work you did on Richard's new
Warp motor. Nice job. I have a few of questions:
1) what does wrapping the comms actually do?
2) do you see any room to be able to trim on 30lbs on these motors?
3) why put the band on the riser?
4) do you have a recomendation for a better brush holder than the sheet
steel type?
thanks
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not to beat this one death, but when the front wheels get spinning, they want
to translate just like a gyroscope positioned the same way on your finger. The
gyroscope will tend to walk around the end of your finger - the front wheels of
a car tend to turn out.
This also tends to take the play out of the linkage - which is a good thing.
If it's set neutral, the wheels *will* tend towards toe-out at speed.
It's splitting hairs, but he idea is to get it to track straight at the speed
where you do all your driving. Since that changes, you can begin to see it is a
compromise.
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I just want to add one more comment to this thread before it grows any older.
> When I learned how
> to do alignments in auto school, toe-in was called the tire wearing angle.
> One
> of the main reasons
> for getting it right was to prevent premature wear. If the toe is too far in,
> or
> out, your tires
> will scuff the pavement causing rolling resistance and tire wear. Toe
> adjustment
> (in or out)
> compensates for the play in your front end parts. In rear wheel drive cars
> the
> front tires tend to
> push back and you might add some toe in to balance it out. The net result is
> the
> tires point
> straight down the road and don't wear excessively. Generally front wheel
> drive
> cars will have the
> opposite problem. Since the front tires are pulling the car, they will try to
> go
> to a toe in
> condition, so you may have to adjust towards toe out.
>
> An easy way to see this is to grab one front tire and try to rock it back and
> forth as if you were
> trying to turn the wheels (the same direction the steering wheel does). You
> will
> probably be able
> to move the tire a little without moving the other side due to the play in
> your
> front end. It's
> almost impossible to eliminate all the slop.
>
> One of the simplest ways to tell if your tires have a toe problem is to feel
> the
> top of the tire.
> Run you hand back and forth across the tread on top of the tire at a right
> angle
> to the direction
> of rotation. If you have too much toe out or in all the raised portions will
> tend to wear on one
> side. You can easily feel a sharp edge moving your hand in one direction but
> it
> will feel smooth
> in the other.
>
> Caster of course will affect the way the cars feels going down the road.
> Lot's
> of caster will help
> the car move in a straight line. Little or no caster will make the car feel
> squirrely. But caster
> and camber don't have a drastic affect (if any) on tire wear or rolling
> resistance. Generally
> camber adjustment is so limited you have to really work at it to get in
> trouble.
>
> A little longer than I'd planned, but maybe it will help.
>
> Dave Cover
>
> --- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Here is how I corrected the excessive toe-in of my Prius
> > (it was probably even out of manufacturer spec, but certainly
> > way too much to be "LRR" and I certainly noticed a jump up
> > in mileage after this correction)
> >
> > - My garage floor is almost level, a car needs a push to start
> > rolling out onto the street, so I used this as my "basis".
> >
> > - I looked up the Tread Width for front and rear wheels and
> > found out that the rear has a slightly wider Tread than front.
> >
> > - I set the steering wheel straight and rolled the car back and
> > forth to settle tolerances.
> >
> > - Then I checked when glancing along the outside wall of each
> > front wheel if I could see a slight of the rear wheel, when
> > the front and back side of the front tire were aligned.
> > (looking along it at hub height)
> >
> > (If your rear Tread Width is smaller than front, it may help to
> > draw a chalk line outside the rear wheel at 1/2 the difference
> > as a target to aim for. In the above case, you may also draw a
> > line from front to the rear tires, hitting them at the front
> > Tread Width distance.)
> >
> > At this point I noticed that the "line" of the front wheel ran
> > way past the rear wheel due to too much toe-in.
> > This was easily corrected on each front wheel and when I could
> > see a thin line of the rear wheel, about 1/2 the difference
> > between front and rear Thread Width, I noticed that I could
> > move the car more easily when pushing it by hand and the MPG
> > went up several miles per gallon.
> > Since zero toe-in is actually within manufacturer spec, I did not
> > worry about safety and handling and in fact it is still handling
> > very comfortably, I cannot pry the Prius out of my wife's
> > fingers, so it is good I like the electric truck....
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Systems Architect
> > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of ProEV
> > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 5:26 AM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: camber
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike wrote
> >
> > > Raise your hand if you have a fast street driven EV? That's what I
> > > thought.
> >
> > I'm suspect that came across a little ruder than you intended. I also think
> > you might find that some of the people who have done the most thinking on
> > this question are in seriously power limited EV's such as Solar Raycers and
> > Eletrathon competitors.
> >
> > Dave wrote
> >
> > <Seems to me I saw something about improving less rolling resistance by
> > <front end alignment that zeroes camber.
> >
> >
> > It's been my experience that to minimize rolling resistance, most cars can
> > benefit from a basic alignment. Do the front wheels point the same way as
> > the rear wheels and do they both point the same way as the body?
> >
> > Then setting the toe can help.
> >
> > Finally camber might help but at the cost of tire grip while
> > cornering.
> >
> > At ProEV, we always try to do a full alignment before we race a new car. The
> >
> > alignment almost always uncovers a way to improve the car.
> >
> > There are a million techniques to get the same information. Here is a rough
> > and ready way that will give most people useful information. What seems the
> > best way to me might not to others, so modify to suit.
> >
> > Checking the alignment on your street EV can be done fairly cheaply if you
> > have a level, a ruler, some chalk, fishing line and do not mind crawling
> > around. Plumb bob, right angle and jack stands are optional. We
> > use a 12 foot builder's level in the race shop but a smaller level and a
> > long
> > straight edge work just as well.
> >
> > Step 1: Find a level area.
> >
> > Take your level and find a flat level area bigger than the car,
> > preferable with a hard floor. The area should be level fore and aft and
> > side to side. The more accurate you are, the more exact your results. NASCAR
> > teams pour special level floors but you can get workable
> > results with out being fanatical.
> >
> > Step 2: Put your car in the center of your level area.
> >
> > Center the steering wheel. Inflate the tires evenly. For better accuracy,
> > have someone sit in the driver's seat.
> >
> > Step 3: Locate and mark the center line of the car.
> >
> > There a number of things that can help you decide where the center line
> > should be. They can disagree and then you just have to choose. We start at
> > suspension pivot points. Use a plumb bob (or a string and a small weight)
> > and chalk to mark the position of the suspension pivot point on the floor.
> > Do
> > the same on the other side of the car. Draw a line between the two points.
> > measure the distance and mark the middle. Do the same thing with two pick up
> > points in the rear. Draw a line that connects the two middle marks and
> > extends out the front and rear of the car for at least a foot.
> >
> > It would be nice if this center line comes out at the middle of the body in
> > the front and rear. If it does not, then you have to decide if you want your
> > body square to the air flow or your suspension symmetrical. For a low drag
> > street EV, keeping your aero body square to the air flow is probably worth
> > more. In that case, chose the center of the front of the body and the
> > center of the rear of the body. Draw a line between the two (and extend them
> > a foot behind and in front of the car).
> >
> > Step 4: Mark a box around the car.
> >
> > Using the center line, draw a line perpendicular to the center line and 1
> > foot in front of the car. It needs to extend a couple of inches beyond the
> > width of the car on either side. Do the same at the rear. Measure the same
> > distance out from the center line in the front and the rear and draw a line.
> > It should be close to the car. If all your corners are 90 degrees then you
> > probably measured right.
> >
> > Step 5: Measure the wheel locations at wheel center height.
> >
> > Fishing line and 2 jack stands make this easier. Check how high the center
> > of the wheel is. Set the jackstands at either end of one of the chalked
> > sidelines. Tie the fishing line to the jack stands at the wheel center line
> > height and pull it tight. It should mimic the chalk line but up in the air.
> > Measure the
> > distance between the fishing line and a point on the wheel face at the front
> > of the rim and the rear of the rim. Make sure the point you are measuring is
> > not odd-bent rim, odd bulge on tire, etc. Make sure your ruler is square to
> > the fishing line. Write down the measurements. Repeat for all wheels.
> >
> > Step 6: Interpret the data.
> >
> > The difference between the front and rear measurements on one wheel is toe.
> > If the distance from the front of the rim to the fishing line is greater
> > than the distance from fishing line to the rear of the rim, you have toe in.
> > Otherway around, toe out. Equal is zero toe.
> >
> > Add the two measurements for a rear wheel and compare it to the sum of the
> > measurement for the front wheel on the same side. If the car has the same
> > size wheels and track, the totals should be the same. If not, your front and
> > rear wheel do not line up. More drag especially in the wet or snow.
> >
> > If you add the two measurements for the rear wheel and compare it to the sum
> > of the measurement for the other rear wheel. If they do not match, the
> > wheels are offset to the body. Do the same for the front.
> >
> > For the least rolling resistance, all 8 measurements should be same. That
> > would give you zero toe front and rear with the front and rear wheels lined
> > up square to the body. This will change the handling of the car. Do not do
> > this unless you know what you are doing and reconize that you might be
> > risking life and limb
> > in a possibly ill handling car.
> >
> > Test the car in a safe area. Try it at different speeds and braking,
> > turning, accelerating and in combinations. If the steering wanders, try more
> > caster. If the turn-in is slow, increase the rake or play with the Ackerman
> > steering.
> >
> > Cliff
> > www.ProEV.com
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Then of course there is the front wheel drive versus rear.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Not to beat this one death, but when the front wheels get spinning,
they want to translate just like a gyroscope positioned the same way
on your finger. The gyroscope will tend to walk around the end of your
finger - the front wheels of a car tend to turn out.
>
> This also tends to take the play out of the linkage - which is a
good thing.
>
> If it's set neutral, the wheels *will* tend towards toe-out at speed.
>
> It's splitting hairs, but he idea is to get it to track straight at
the speed where you do all your driving. Since that changes, you can
begin to see it is a compromise.
>
>
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > I just want to add one more comment to this thread before it grows
any older.
> > When I learned how
> > to do alignments in auto school, toe-in was called the tire
wearing angle. One
> > of the main reasons
> > for getting it right was to prevent premature wear. If the toe is
too far in, or
> > out, your tires
> > will scuff the pavement causing rolling resistance and tire wear.
Toe adjustment
> > (in or out)
> > compensates for the play in your front end parts. In rear wheel
drive cars the
> > front tires tend to
> > push back and you might add some toe in to balance it out. The net
result is the
> > tires point
> > straight down the road and don't wear excessively. Generally front
wheel drive
> > cars will have the
> > opposite problem. Since the front tires are pulling the car, they
will try to go
> > to a toe in
> > condition, so you may have to adjust towards toe out.
> >
> > An easy way to see this is to grab one front tire and try to rock
it back and
> > forth as if you were
> > trying to turn the wheels (the same direction the steering wheel
does). You will
> > probably be able
> > to move the tire a little without moving the other side due to the
play in your
> > front end. It's
> > almost impossible to eliminate all the slop.
> >
> > One of the simplest ways to tell if your tires have a toe problem
is to feel the
> > top of the tire.
> > Run you hand back and forth across the tread on top of the tire at
a right angle
> > to the direction
> > of rotation. If you have too much toe out or in all the raised
portions will
> > tend to wear on one
> > side. You can easily feel a sharp edge moving your hand in one
direction but it
> > will feel smooth
> > in the other.
> >
> > Caster of course will affect the way the cars feels going down the
road. Lot's
> > of caster will help
> > the car move in a straight line. Little or no caster will make the
car feel
> > squirrely. But caster
> > and camber don't have a drastic affect (if any) on tire wear or
rolling
> > resistance. Generally
> > camber adjustment is so limited you have to really work at it to
get in trouble.
> >
> > A little longer than I'd planned, but maybe it will help.
> >
> > Dave Cover
> >
> > --- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Here is how I corrected the excessive toe-in of my Prius
> > > (it was probably even out of manufacturer spec, but certainly
> > > way too much to be "LRR" and I certainly noticed a jump up
> > > in mileage after this correction)
> > >
> > > - My garage floor is almost level, a car needs a push to start
> > > rolling out onto the street, so I used this as my "basis".
> > >
> > > - I looked up the Tread Width for front and rear wheels and
> > > found out that the rear has a slightly wider Tread than front.
> > >
> > > - I set the steering wheel straight and rolled the car back and
> > > forth to settle tolerances.
> > >
> > > - Then I checked when glancing along the outside wall of each
> > > front wheel if I could see a slight of the rear wheel, when
> > > the front and back side of the front tire were aligned.
> > > (looking along it at hub height)
> > >
> > > (If your rear Tread Width is smaller than front, it may help to
> > > draw a chalk line outside the rear wheel at 1/2 the difference
> > > as a target to aim for. In the above case, you may also draw a
> > > line from front to the rear tires, hitting them at the front
> > > Tread Width distance.)
> > >
> > > At this point I noticed that the "line" of the front wheel ran
> > > way past the rear wheel due to too much toe-in.
> > > This was easily corrected on each front wheel and when I could
> > > see a thin line of the rear wheel, about 1/2 the difference
> > > between front and rear Thread Width, I noticed that I could
> > > move the car more easily when pushing it by hand and the MPG
> > > went up several miles per gallon.
> > > Since zero toe-in is actually within manufacturer spec, I did not
> > > worry about safety and handling and in fact it is still handling
> > > very comfortably, I cannot pry the Prius out of my wife's
> > > fingers, so it is good I like the electric truck....
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Cor van de Water
> > > Systems Architect
> > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > > Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > > Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Behalf Of ProEV
> > > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 5:26 AM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Re: camber
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike wrote
> > >
> > > > Raise your hand if you have a fast street driven EV? That's what I
> > > > thought.
> > >
> > > I'm suspect that came across a little ruder than you intended. I
also think
> > > you might find that some of the people who have done the most
thinking on
> > > this question are in seriously power limited EV's such as Solar
Raycers and
> > > Eletrathon competitors.
> > >
> > > Dave wrote
> > >
> > > <Seems to me I saw something about improving less rolling
resistance by
> > > <front end alignment that zeroes camber.
> > >
> > >
> > > It's been my experience that to minimize rolling resistance,
most cars can
> > > benefit from a basic alignment. Do the front wheels point the
same way as
> > > the rear wheels and do they both point the same way as the body?
> > >
> > > Then setting the toe can help.
> > >
> > > Finally camber might help but at the cost of tire grip while
> > > cornering.
> > >
> > > At ProEV, we always try to do a full alignment before we race a
new car. The
> > >
> > > alignment almost always uncovers a way to improve the car.
> > >
> > > There are a million techniques to get the same information. Here
is a rough
> > > and ready way that will give most people useful information.
What seems the
> > > best way to me might not to others, so modify to suit.
> > >
> > > Checking the alignment on your street EV can be done fairly
cheaply if you
> > > have a level, a ruler, some chalk, fishing line and do not mind
crawling
> > > around. Plumb bob, right angle and jack stands are optional. We
> > > use a 12 foot builder's level in the race shop but a smaller
level and a
> > > long
> > > straight edge work just as well.
> > >
> > > Step 1: Find a level area.
> > >
> > > Take your level and find a flat level area bigger than the car,
> > > preferable with a hard floor. The area should be level fore and
aft and
> > > side to side. The more accurate you are, the more exact your
results. NASCAR
> > > teams pour special level floors but you can get workable
> > > results with out being fanatical.
> > >
> > > Step 2: Put your car in the center of your level area.
> > >
> > > Center the steering wheel. Inflate the tires evenly. For better
accuracy,
> > > have someone sit in the driver's seat.
> > >
> > > Step 3: Locate and mark the center line of the car.
> > >
> > > There a number of things that can help you decide where the
center line
> > > should be. They can disagree and then you just have to choose.
We start at
> > > suspension pivot points. Use a plumb bob (or a string and a
small weight)
> > > and chalk to mark the position of the suspension pivot point on
the floor.
> > > Do
> > > the same on the other side of the car. Draw a line between the
two points.
> > > measure the distance and mark the middle. Do the same thing with
two pick up
> > > points in the rear. Draw a line that connects the two middle
marks and
> > > extends out the front and rear of the car for at least a foot.
> > >
> > > It would be nice if this center line comes out at the middle of
the body in
> > > the front and rear. If it does not, then you have to decide if
you want your
> > > body square to the air flow or your suspension symmetrical. For
a low drag
> > > street EV, keeping your aero body square to the air flow is
probably worth
> > > more. In that case, chose the center of the front of the body
and the
> > > center of the rear of the body. Draw a line between the two (and
extend them
> > > a foot behind and in front of the car).
> > >
> > > Step 4: Mark a box around the car.
> > >
> > > Using the center line, draw a line perpendicular to the center
line and 1
> > > foot in front of the car. It needs to extend a couple of inches
beyond the
> > > width of the car on either side. Do the same at the rear.
Measure the same
> > > distance out from the center line in the front and the rear and
draw a line.
> > > It should be close to the car. If all your corners are 90
degrees then you
> > > probably measured right.
> > >
> > > Step 5: Measure the wheel locations at wheel center height.
> > >
> > > Fishing line and 2 jack stands make this easier. Check how high
the center
> > > of the wheel is. Set the jackstands at either end of one of the
chalked
> > > sidelines. Tie the fishing line to the jack stands at the wheel
center line
> > > height and pull it tight. It should mimic the chalk line but up
in the air.
> > > Measure the
> > > distance between the fishing line and a point on the wheel face
at the front
> > > of the rim and the rear of the rim. Make sure the point you are
measuring is
> > > not odd-bent rim, odd bulge on tire, etc. Make sure your ruler
is square to
> > > the fishing line. Write down the measurements. Repeat for all
wheels.
> > >
> > > Step 6: Interpret the data.
> > >
> > > The difference between the front and rear measurements on one
wheel is toe.
> > > If the distance from the front of the rim to the fishing line is
greater
> > > than the distance from fishing line to the rear of the rim, you
have toe in.
> > > Otherway around, toe out. Equal is zero toe.
> > >
> > > Add the two measurements for a rear wheel and compare it to the
sum of the
> > > measurement for the front wheel on the same side. If the car has
the same
> > > size wheels and track, the totals should be the same. If not,
your front and
> > > rear wheel do not line up. More drag especially in the wet or snow.
> > >
> > > If you add the two measurements for the rear wheel and compare
it to the sum
> > > of the measurement for the other rear wheel. If they do not
match, the
> > > wheels are offset to the body. Do the same for the front.
> > >
> > > For the least rolling resistance, all 8 measurements should be
same. That
> > > would give you zero toe front and rear with the front and rear
wheels lined
> > > up square to the body. This will change the handling of the car.
Do not do
> > > this unless you know what you are doing and reconize that you
might be
> > > risking life and limb
> > > in a possibly ill handling car.
> > >
> > > Test the car in a safe area. Try it at different speeds and braking,
> > > turning, accelerating and in combinations. If the steering
wanders, try more
> > > caster. If the turn-in is slow, increase the rake or play with
the Ackerman
> > > steering.
> > >
> > > Cliff
> > > www.ProEV.com
> > >
> > >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Husted wrote:
> Trimming 30 pounds off this motor
What if you got some 1"(or thicker) aluminum plate and had it rolled
into a cylinder shape of the proper size and had the seam welded to
make a new motor frame out of it?
Get a non heat treated sheet and after it's rolled and welded(and
drilled and tapped), have it heat treated.
If that's the case, can you get or build new coms? You could
conceivably start your own custom motor line.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yup,
I can confirm this.
With the excessive toe-in, my front tires were through more
than half the thread on the outside edge of the tires in 12k miles.
(That's how I bought the car.)
Setting them to zero toe stopped this excessive wear, pumping
them to 45 PSI put more of the load on the "middle" section of
the thread.
When I found that my rear tires has slightly more wear on
the inside edges, I swapped them with the front tires
(I think there never was a tire rotation on this car)
so they are almost even worn now at 31k and will need
replacement this year as most original Prius Potenzas of
this age.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Dave Cover
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 2:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: toe, was: camber
I just want to add one more comment to this thread before it grows any
older. When I learned how
to do alignments in auto school, toe-in was called the tire wearing angle.
One of the main reasons
for getting it right was to prevent premature wear. If the toe is too far
in, or out, your tires
will scuff the pavement causing rolling resistance and tire wear. Toe
adjustment (in or out)
compensates for the play in your front end parts. In rear wheel drive cars
the front tires tend to
push back and you might add some toe in to balance it out. The net result is
the tires point
straight down the road and don't wear excessively. Generally front wheel
drive cars will have the
opposite problem. Since the front tires are pulling the car, they will try
to go to a toe in
condition, so you may have to adjust towards toe out.
An easy way to see this is to grab one front tire and try to rock it back
and forth as if you were
trying to turn the wheels (the same direction the steering wheel does). You
will probably be able
to move the tire a little without moving the other side due to the play in
your front end. It's
almost impossible to eliminate all the slop.
One of the simplest ways to tell if your tires have a toe problem is to feel
the top of the tire.
Run you hand back and forth across the tread on top of the tire at a right
angle to the direction
of rotation. If you have too much toe out or in all the raised portions will
tend to wear on one
side. You can easily feel a sharp edge moving your hand in one direction but
it will feel smooth
in the other.
Caster of course will affect the way the cars feels going down the road.
Lot's of caster will help
the car move in a straight line. Little or no caster will make the car feel
squirrely. But caster
and camber don't have a drastic affect (if any) on tire wear or rolling
resistance. Generally
camber adjustment is so limited you have to really work at it to get in
trouble.
A little longer than I'd planned, but maybe it will help.
Dave Cover
--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Here is how I corrected the excessive toe-in of my Prius
> (it was probably even out of manufacturer spec, but certainly
> way too much to be "LRR" and I certainly noticed a jump up
> in mileage after this correction)
>
> - My garage floor is almost level, a car needs a push to start
> rolling out onto the street, so I used this as my "basis".
>
> - I looked up the Tread Width for front and rear wheels and
> found out that the rear has a slightly wider Tread than front.
>
> - I set the steering wheel straight and rolled the car back and
> forth to settle tolerances.
>
> - Then I checked when glancing along the outside wall of each
> front wheel if I could see a slight of the rear wheel, when
> the front and back side of the front tire were aligned.
> (looking along it at hub height)
>
> (If your rear Tread Width is smaller than front, it may help to
> draw a chalk line outside the rear wheel at 1/2 the difference
> as a target to aim for. In the above case, you may also draw a
> line from front to the rear tires, hitting them at the front
> Tread Width distance.)
>
> At this point I noticed that the "line" of the front wheel ran
> way past the rear wheel due to too much toe-in.
> This was easily corrected on each front wheel and when I could
> see a thin line of the rear wheel, about 1/2 the difference
> between front and rear Thread Width, I noticed that I could
> move the car more easily when pushing it by hand and the MPG
> went up several miles per gallon.
> Since zero toe-in is actually within manufacturer spec, I did not
> worry about safety and handling and in fact it is still handling
> very comfortably, I cannot pry the Prius out of my wife's
> fingers, so it is good I like the electric truck....
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of ProEV
> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 5:26 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: camber
>
>
>
> Mike wrote
>
> > Raise your hand if you have a fast street driven EV? That's what I
> > thought.
>
> I'm suspect that came across a little ruder than you intended. I also
think
> you might find that some of the people who have done the most thinking on
> this question are in seriously power limited EV's such as Solar Raycers
and
> Eletrathon competitors.
>
> Dave wrote
>
> <Seems to me I saw something about improving less rolling resistance by
> <front end alignment that zeroes camber.
>
>
> It's been my experience that to minimize rolling resistance, most cars can
> benefit from a basic alignment. Do the front wheels point the same way as
> the rear wheels and do they both point the same way as the body?
>
> Then setting the toe can help.
>
> Finally camber might help but at the cost of tire grip while
> cornering.
>
> At ProEV, we always try to do a full alignment before we race a new car.
The
>
> alignment almost always uncovers a way to improve the car.
>
> There are a million techniques to get the same information. Here is a
rough
> and ready way that will give most people useful information. What seems
the
> best way to me might not to others, so modify to suit.
>
> Checking the alignment on your street EV can be done fairly cheaply if you
> have a level, a ruler, some chalk, fishing line and do not mind crawling
> around. Plumb bob, right angle and jack stands are optional. We
> use a 12 foot builder's level in the race shop but a smaller level and a
> long
> straight edge work just as well.
>
> Step 1: Find a level area.
>
> Take your level and find a flat level area bigger than the car,
> preferable with a hard floor. The area should be level fore and aft and
> side to side. The more accurate you are, the more exact your results.
NASCAR
> teams pour special level floors but you can get workable
> results with out being fanatical.
>
> Step 2: Put your car in the center of your level area.
>
> Center the steering wheel. Inflate the tires evenly. For better accuracy,
> have someone sit in the driver's seat.
>
> Step 3: Locate and mark the center line of the car.
>
> There a number of things that can help you decide where the center line
> should be. They can disagree and then you just have to choose. We start at
> suspension pivot points. Use a plumb bob (or a string and a small weight)
> and chalk to mark the position of the suspension pivot point on the floor.
> Do
> the same on the other side of the car. Draw a line between the two points.
> measure the distance and mark the middle. Do the same thing with two pick
up
> points in the rear. Draw a line that connects the two middle marks and
> extends out the front and rear of the car for at least a foot.
>
> It would be nice if this center line comes out at the middle of the body
in
> the front and rear. If it does not, then you have to decide if you want
your
> body square to the air flow or your suspension symmetrical. For a low drag
> street EV, keeping your aero body square to the air flow is probably worth
> more. In that case, chose the center of the front of the body and the
> center of the rear of the body. Draw a line between the two (and extend
them
> a foot behind and in front of the car).
>
> Step 4: Mark a box around the car.
>
> Using the center line, draw a line perpendicular to the center line and 1
> foot in front of the car. It needs to extend a couple of inches beyond the
> width of the car on either side. Do the same at the rear. Measure the same
> distance out from the center line in the front and the rear and draw a
line.
> It should be close to the car. If all your corners are 90 degrees then you
> probably measured right.
>
> Step 5: Measure the wheel locations at wheel center height.
>
> Fishing line and 2 jack stands make this easier. Check how high the center
> of the wheel is. Set the jackstands at either end of one of the chalked
> sidelines. Tie the fishing line to the jack stands at the wheel center
line
> height and pull it tight. It should mimic the chalk line but up in the
air.
> Measure the
> distance between the fishing line and a point on the wheel face at the
front
> of the rim and the rear of the rim. Make sure the point you are measuring
is
> not odd-bent rim, odd bulge on tire, etc. Make sure your ruler is square
to
> the fishing line. Write down the measurements. Repeat for all wheels.
>
> Step 6: Interpret the data.
>
> The difference between the front and rear measurements on one wheel is
toe.
> If the distance from the front of the rim to the fishing line is greater
> than the distance from fishing line to the rear of the rim, you have toe
in.
> Otherway around, toe out. Equal is zero toe.
>
> Add the two measurements for a rear wheel and compare it to the sum of the
> measurement for the front wheel on the same side. If the car has the same
> size wheels and track, the totals should be the same. If not, your front
and
> rear wheel do not line up. More drag especially in the wet or snow.
>
> If you add the two measurements for the rear wheel and compare it to the
sum
> of the measurement for the other rear wheel. If they do not match, the
> wheels are offset to the body. Do the same for the front.
>
> For the least rolling resistance, all 8 measurements should be same. That
> would give you zero toe front and rear with the front and rear wheels
lined
> up square to the body. This will change the handling of the car. Do not do
> this unless you know what you are doing and reconize that you might be
> risking life and limb
> in a possibly ill handling car.
>
> Test the car in a safe area. Try it at different speeds and braking,
> turning, accelerating and in combinations. If the steering wanders, try
more
> caster. If the turn-in is slow, increase the rake or play with the
Ackerman
> steering.
>
> Cliff
> www.ProEV.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey everyone,
John "It sure is wet and chilly over here" Wayland wrote:
"Uh....Madman, not to try to take 'anything' away from Matt's
accomplishment, but duh....our track doesn't even open until late April :-)
Living in the same Pacific Northwest area as I do, you of all people should
know this. Unlike balmy Florida, we have to wait for drag racing weather to
return after the Winter's ice and snow, and the early Spring's rains are
behind us."
Yeah, John. . .that's a shame! And what do you mean "balmy Florida"? I
almost had to throw on a windbreaker on Wednesday night!
Looking forward to warmer days for you, and quicker times and faster speeds
for White Zombie!
Matt Graham
300V "Joule Injected" Nissan
http://www.jouleinjected.com
Hobe Sound, FL
--------------------
Rich Rudman wrote:
>OOOOOOoooo!
>Looks like Matt Graham is the first into the Madman's 100 for 2006. He
>beat Wayland!.
>
>Madman.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A new network of organizations have come together to promote electric
vehicles as a replacement for gas-powered vehicles....
http://tyler.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/3/26/1842211.html
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) h:(905)279-5885 c:(416)892-5885
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm having excellent luck with my EV-1 controller installed in an Electravan
750. (Ford Courier) I installed a 300 amp meter and it doesn't peg over
ever. No matter how hard I try 300 amps is the limit. LR......
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 4:19 PM
Subject: Does anyone know the Amp rating of the various GE EV-1 controllers?
I have 2 of these controllers, GE EV-1B (with 24-84 V, 5H9 cards). My old
007 had the GE EV-1C. I'm not sure which one the Saab Sonett had, but it
did
have a bypass. I seem to remember that it pulled about 250 A in SCR mode
and
then about 500 A with the bypass. The 007 currently pulls about 300 A,
but I
think that is because we turned the current rating way down.
Does anyone know the continuous, and max rating (with how long at the max
rating) for the EV-1B, EV-1C, and EV-1D (which I only know about from the
manual,
but have never seen).
This will help the calculations for my car and a few others still trying
to
use these controllers.
Thanks,
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Steve (and all),
Yes, I think the 9 inch motors have plenty to do with the great performance.
>From the very beginning, I was intent on using 9s, rather than 8s, for the
increased torque output. In a heavy (more than 3200 lbs) car without a
tranny, I knew I'd need it, and figured I could play with tire diameter and
rear end ratio to get things just right.
I gotta say, though, I can't wait to see what some of these new cars (and
trucks) will do with the bigger 11 and 13 (and larger?) inch motors. . .
Matt Graham
-----Original Message-----
From: STEVE CLUNN [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 10:58 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Congratulations to Matt Graham and Lowell Simmons!
What dose this mean about 2 9's vs 2 8' ? Matts car in many ways is far
for a feather light and he's running orbitals , probable not warmed up by
dump charging before the run. So is Matts Ace in the whole the 2 9" motors
?.
Good job Matt , that;s the way to put florida on the ev map :-) Steve Clunn
>
>
> Yes, that's terrific, but the slightly lower speed run of 99 mph was done
> in a stunning 13.3 second blast! We're talking just 3/10ths away from
> running 12s!!! I predicted Matt's machine could run 12's....stay tuned,
> it's only a matter of time. A near 3000 lb. EV running low 13's?? That's
> quite an accomplishment.
>
> See Ya.......John Wayland
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey everyone,
Thanks, Charles for sharing the highlights from last Wednesday's night of
racing at Moroso. It figures that work would get in my way of EV posting
right after all the fun, so I'm glad you spilled the beans!
Thankfully Lowell posted already about how well the Miramar High School
Porsche did. The only thing he couldn't fill you all in on was how much
celebrating was going on at the other end of the track when he went through
the traps. I was in line in the Nissan about four cars behind Lowell, Shawn
was standing near the announcer's tower, and Charles was up in the stands
when Lowell posted the 14.55 second, 93 mph run. We were all thrilled to see
the Porsche perform like we knew it could, and I'm sure Lowell's students
are really proud of their car. We're all pulling for Lowell and the Miramar
High School Porsche at the EV Challenge next week!
I've got to go back about an hour or so before this run to mention another
great hightlight of the evening. Lowell and I had both cars lined up in the
Sportsman class lanes, waiting for the Outlaw class cars to run. We both had
our hoods down and were hanging out around the Porsche when I noticed a
group of about four or five folks walking past us and heading towards the
Nissan. It was a little way down the lane, and they were taking their time
looking at all the cars ahead of it pretty closely. Realizing just how wrong
the situation was I asked Lowell, "Are you going to put your hood up? I'm
putting my hood up!" I jogged down the lane and put the hood up, then
casually walked past them and chatted it up with another Nissan driver in a
300Z. We weren't talking more than a couple minutes before he wanted to
check out the 240SX with the same rear end he was running (Lowell brought it
up, and I don't think we ever mentioned that it was in an electric car). By
the time we got down the lane a bit, we ran right into the impromptu Joule
Injected convention center! Okay, I'm exaggerating, but there were about 15
people there pointing, scratching their heads and repeating "what the. . ."
and "No way!!"
I heard one guy say, "I can't believe there's an electric car at the track!"
I said, "Well sure. . .and there's another electric car right there--the
Porsche. In fact, we just held an all-electric race here in January!" It was
perfect! Another guy that I was talking with for a while brought up the
Nissan Infiniti Car Owners club (nicoclub.com) and I mentioned that yes, I'd
been on there before. In fact, I'm still waiting for my five-lug conversion
hubs I heard about there so I can put the 16" wheels up front, too. He was
saying how I should post something about the car, and I said I definitely
would. Of course, he beat me to the punch and posted about Joule Injected
later that same night, and there's been a raging thread going on since then!
Back to the action, now. After Lowell's run, I was heading on up to the
track and dropping the rear wheels into the burnout box. This is where the
complete and utter lack of any video has been killing me. I have had no idea
what the burnouts looks like, so I've basically been winging it up there. I
hit the throttle for a few seconds, slowly pushing the car towards the
staging area as the front brakes submit to overwhelming power. Then I roll
on up to the beams, pre-stage, stage and ease off the pedal. The lights come
down, I jump on the throttle. . .and proceed to do a *real* burnout through
the first 60 or 80 feet of the run! After the not-so-scorching 2.2 second
60' time, the tires start grabbing. Now that I've got traction and the amps
are dropping off, I throw it in parallel and the car pulls hard through the
rest of the run. The last number I see is the 1000' time of 11.442 seconds,
and I'm wondering what that'll mean for the quarter mile time. I pull up to
the time shack to pick up my slip, and apparently the guy there doesn't
recognize the significance of that little piece of paper as he hands it to
me. I scan down to the last two lines:
13.677 seconds at 100.05 mph!
After all the congratulations for Lowell's great time and my 100 mph mark, I
get a thorough dressing-down on my less-than-stellar burnout. At this point,
I'm determined that the next one will be different.
As Lowell wrote, he had a second successful outing, even without powering
the Zilla through the entire run. From the other end of the track we were
all trying to figure out what could have happened, since his time dropped by
a full second and it had looked like a clean launch. Thankfully nothing big.
Meanwhile, I was busily trying to assemble a charging cord to hook up to the
little 3600W generator. So little power and so little time left--the track
was closing at 11PM!
I started charging around 9:30, so it wasn't looking good for anything close
to a full charge. Still, that gave me some time to hang out a bit and tinker
with the Zilla settings. During the evening, Shawn had been chatting it up
with Gary, the track manager, and Eric, one of the tech managers. You know
he's laying the groundwork for a bigger and better Battery Beach Burnout
next year, so plan on a January vacation to South Florida next year! Anyway,
as I was walking around the track, checking things out, I came across Gary
amidst all the cars lined up to run. He walks right up with an arm extended
for a congratulatory handshake: "Great run!" Then I said, "First time an EV
in Florida ever broke 100 mph in the quarter--right here at Moroso." I know
he liked hearing that. They love us there!
Well, about half an hour later, it's past 10:30 and over the loudspeaker I
hear something about some other class lined up for the last runs of the
night. I trot back to the car, pull it off charge (I think it was only at
325 volts instead of a good 360 or 370) and start heading out of the pits.
Shawn points me over to an empty lane 3, where Gary had told him earlier we
could run. There's another track coordinator standing there, though, and he
starts waving me off, indicating no more runs for the night. At that exact
instant, I look over to my left, see Gary driving by on his golf cart, wave
to him and point up front to the track coordinator. Gary looks at him, picks
right up on the situation and tells him, "Yeah, yeah, he can run! Let him
in!" Did I mention the love?
Just as I start to head towards the announcer's tower before the track, I
hear Carla over the loudspeaker. "Here comes Matt Graham in that electric
Nissan 240. His run earlier tonight was the first time in Florida an
electric car broke 100 mph in the quarter!" Thank you, Carla (and Gary for
giving her the heads up)! I move up to the burnout box and drop on in. I
plant my left foot as hard as I can to get those manual brakes to act like
power ones and then give the throttle a nice deep shove. This time it was a
whole different story: much higher RPMs for a solid four or five seconds.
The brakes managed to keep the car pretty much in place, so then I rolled on
up to the lights. Everything fell into place perfectly: 0.036 reaction time,
tires digging in hard for a 1.8 second 60' time and my best quarter mile
time of 13.364, but at 99.64 mph. I've been traction limited in the past
with those awful burnouts, so now maybe I can finally crank the amps up
above 1400 for future runs. Still, what a great night at the track!
I'll be updating the site soon with the timeslips, and I just caught up on a
couple hundred posts including some questions about the car, so I'll try to
add some other content, too.
Matt Graham
300V "Joule Injected" Nissan
http://www.jouleinjected.com
Hobe Sound, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: Lowell Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 1:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Congratulations to Matt Graham and Lowell Simmons!
We finally got the 944 down the track with a respectful time. I have been
building 96 and 156 volt cars in school for several years, but going 240 has
definitely been a new mindset. The 944 has a .975 solid driveshaft with 26
splines. We spun the driveshaft splines at Battery Beach Burnout. Since
then we have torn up one transaxle, split the driveshaft to tranxaxle spline
coupler (944's have a stationary driveshaft with one coupler in the front to
the motor and a second factory designed coupler in the rear) and exploded
the chain coupler between our two 8" XP motors. (These were done just
around our school and at my home.. My students can pull all the front
batteries and motors out in 1 1/2 hours now. We machined a beefier front
coupler, welded gussets into the rear coupler and off to Moroso we went. I
had only driven the car home from school and back (30 mile roundtrip) one
time before going to the track. You might guess I was a little apprehensive
about running a h!
ard pass.
We will be leaving April 5th for the EV Challenge in Raleigh NC with this
car. It wouldn't leave much time if we broke. I decided to attempt a soft
launch to minimize coupler distress. My main goal was to test for vibrations
and such. No burnout, Kuhmo 225 50 R16 radials, soft launch, (2.12- 60 ft
) Zilla shifts from series to parallel then it's time to keep the pedal to
the metal. The only problem came when the sunroof decided to come unlatched
at around 90 MPH and the night stars started to shine overhead. (got it back
with only minor scratches) I was very pleased with the 14.55 at 93 MPH. I
made a second pass but controller shut down because sli battery voltage too
low. Still was a 15.5 at 89. This would actually be my new record since
time had to be backed up since ont a sanctioned nedra event. I'm not too
worried. There will be more times to come. Thanks for all those who have
helped me get to this point. Not to bad for a 3200 lb car. Oh yeah Rich I
will !
be
getting with you as soon as I can raise some more money. I'm getting tired
of breaking my pack down into two strings and charging one with my 156 Zivan
and the other with an old Lester.
Charles Whalen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Congratulations to Matt Graham and Lowell Simmons for their outstanding
performances at Moroso Racetrack in West Palm Beach last night! Lowell set a
new world record of 14.55 seconds in Miramar High School's Porsche 944,
beating the previous record by almost 2 seconds! Matt Graham also made
history in his Nissan 240SX by being only the third (full-bodied) car ever
to break the 100mph barrier in the quarter mile! It was a great night for
EVs at the track! Racers and fans alike were (literally) blown away by
Matt's and Lowell's cars and their performances! We had lots of fun,
excitement, high fives and jubilation!
Way to go Lowell and Matt!
Charles Whalen
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Blab-away for as little as 1ยข/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo!
Messenger with Voice.
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