EV Digest 5288
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Jim's Warp Motor "cleanup"
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) questions....
by Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: '74 MG electric on eBay
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: questions....
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Jim's Warp Motor "cleanup"
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: can batteries be refurbished
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Hydrometer and SOC
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Aluminum/Zinc air batteries
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: '74 MG electric on eBay
by Jay Snable <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Aluminum/Zinc air batteries
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Wavecrest Auction Tomorrow
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: DC Motors for Racing (and Matt's Nissan 200SX)
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Aluminum/Zinc air batteries
by Meta Bus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) new "This New Car" Radio Show now on-line
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) my (theoretical) setup
by Pascal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Aluminum/Zinc air batteries
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) RE: Aluminum/Zinc air batteries
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Jim's Warp Motor "cleanup"
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Re: Schumacher SE-1072
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Ammeter for newbie
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Public charging in states other than California
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: my (theoretical) setup
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Public charging in states other than California
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Schumacher SE-1072
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: DC Motors for Racing (and Matt's Nissan 200SX)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Ryan
The problem with this is the housing needs to be iron as it becomes part of
the system in creating the magnetics from the field coils. I'm actually
wondering about a laminated housing and wether more can be done with less. Be
fun to try anyway. Although I work on motors with aluminum housings they have
a laminated steel insert and are probably not as efficiant as a steel housing
unit would be.. Anyways thats why these pigs got to weigh, well like pics,
lmao.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Jim Husted wrote:
> Trimming 30 pounds off this motor
What if you got some 1"(or thicker) aluminum plate and had it rolled
into a cylinder shape of the proper size and had the seam welded to
make a new motor frame out of it?
Get a non heat treated sheet and after it's rolled and welded(and
drilled and tapped), have it heat treated.
If that's the case, can you get or build new coms? You could
conceivably start your own custom motor line.
---------------------------------
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC for low, low
rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After initial study of my EV, I have some questions...
any advice you can share is appreciated.
1) (I'll follow existing thread on restoring ded batteries :-)
2) I have this motor I would like to test (Kostov).
Just to see the motor spin, car in Neutral.
Without blowing it up by over-revving.
Is it possible to test without a Controller?
The motor runs on 120VDC. Can I test it on something less?
eg, borrow a 12V battery?
I have some telco supplies 48VDC, but I suspect they
would not deliver enough power. Also have "Wal-wart" 12VDC.
The pack in the car is at 61V -
that's 2 strings of 11 dead batteries at !! 5.56V.
I didn't try hooking that to the motor.
3 of those batteries (12V) didn't do anything.
(just 3 batteries are in easy reach of the motor)
(probably no amps to speak of in them).
If I found a big enough rectifier, should I
try that off house AC - perhaps with a space
heater wired in series to provide some IR drop?
(for this test, maybe one big diode is enough?
dare I look if Rat Shack has anything big? :-)
(Would an old 286 power supply ? :-)
Or, an old UPS?
(two sizes, desktop power strip UPS - hah!, and
one old APC UPS the size of a bulky PC)
(Wow, a second use for my locking-plug adaptor cable
that I made for the snowblowev :-)
Thanks in advance for your suggestions
Seth
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You guys are totally feeding my day dreams and keeping me distracted
from real work...
Is the MG front or rear wheel drive?
(so can it put towed on a dolly with the rear wheels still on the road?)
Are parts still available, without an intense scavenger hunt?
Hmmmm.
Stefan T. Peters wrote:
Well yeah, that's 2500lbs with a 50mile range. Give some of that up by
switching to lighter AGMs, put a 8" or 9" in there, and you should have
one fun little rocket. Don't worry too much about adverse weather, just
use that right foot and OUTRUN the raindrops and snowflakes ;)
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1997 Solectria Force
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Seth
You can bench test the motor on 12 volts using a battery charger or battery.
It's important to remember to keep the rpms to a reasonable level when not
under load. Even your wimpy batteries at 48 or 61 volts could over rev it and
cause the comm to blow. As I've yet to see a Kostov in person yet (Father Time
says he has some dead ones he wants me to look at) I don't know what rpms it
will run at under 12 volts but you will be safe to run it such. It may take 24
volts to bring it to a speed lets say I'd seat a motor at 3000 but you'll see
once you get that far.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
After initial study of my EV, I have some questions...
any advice you can share is appreciated.
1) (I'll follow existing thread on restoring ded batteries :-)
2) I have this motor I would like to test (Kostov).
Just to see the motor spin, car in Neutral.
Without blowing it up by over-revving.
Is it possible to test without a Controller?
The motor runs on 120VDC. Can I test it on something less?
eg, borrow a 12V battery?
I have some telco supplies 48VDC, but I suspect they
would not deliver enough power. Also have "Wal-wart" 12VDC.
The pack in the car is at 61V -
that's 2 strings of 11 dead batteries at !! 5.56V.
I didn't try hooking that to the motor.
3 of those batteries (12V) didn't do anything.
(just 3 batteries are in easy reach of the motor)
(probably no amps to speak of in them).
If I found a big enough rectifier, should I
try that off house AC - perhaps with a space
heater wired in series to provide some IR drop?
(for this test, maybe one big diode is enough?
dare I look if Rat Shack has anything big? :-)
(Would an old 286 power supply ? :-)
Or, an old UPS?
(two sizes, desktop power strip UPS - hah!, and
one old APC UPS the size of a bulky PC)
(Wow, a second use for my locking-plug adaptor cable
that I made for the snowblowev :-)
Thanks in advance for your suggestions
Seth
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates
starting at 1¢/min.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
> What if you got some 1"(or thicker) aluminum plate and had it rolled
> into a cylinder shape of the proper size and had the seam welded to
> make a new motor frame out of it?
The iron case provides the return path for the magnetic field of the
pole pieces. The motor would work very badly if you replaced the case
with aluminum.
You may say, "But I have an AC motor with an aluminum case." True; they
do use an aluminum, or even plastic case sometimes. But if you look
inside, you'll see that the iron laminations then go all the way around,
completing the path without depending on the case.
To lighten the motor, you'll have to find the parts that are not
important either for carrying the magnetic fields, or electric current,
or structural parts needed for mechanical strength.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
mike young wrote:
> I have 12 Deka group 27 gelcells that I removed from my 94 Solectria
> because 5 of them were flat and the other 7 will only hold 5-8 volts.
> My question is are they good for anything besides recycling; can they
> be refurbished?
If a normal charge cycle does not produce normal voltage, then it is
probably shot.
If a normal charge cycle produces normal voltage, but the battery has
low amphour capacity, it may just need a long, slow equalizing charge.
Especially with gels, this must be done at very low current for a very
long time. Try charging at a current of less than 1% of the battery's
rated amphour capacity (i.e. 0.5 amps for a 50 amphour battery) for a
day or so; however long it takes for the voltage to stop rising. Then
test again.
If the battery has excessive internal resistance, it works OK at low
charge and discharge currents, but works badly at higher currents.For
example, its voltage on charge rises to "full" much too soon, and falls
to "dead" equally soon. This means it is either dried out (lost water),
or has excessive grid corrosion, both caused by chronic overcharging.
Adding water will help if it hasn't been dry too long. But once the grid
is corroded, there is no cure. The battery is only useful for
applications that only draw low currents and can tolerate very long
charging times.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Garret Maki wrote:
> I just got on the motorcycle to see how it faired over its first
> storage through the winter. I did charge it periodically through
> the winter. I am using Trojan SCS150 flooded 100 ah batteries.
> I rode it near the house and at about 10 miles the batteries were
> fading fast. Last summer it was more like 17 miles...
> Is this because I checked it after just riding it? Would it have
> dropped if I had let them sit for an hour and then checked?
Lead-acid batteries get "lazy" if they sit idle for long periods. If
they've been kept charged, they will get back in shape if you just
exercise them. Just like people not used to exercise tire out quickly,
but improve rapidly if they gradually build up.
Be gentle; be careful not to over-discharge them or over-charge them
while they are getting back in shape. It usually takes 5-10 cycles to
break them in again.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi everyone,
Some days bring about "range woes". I specifically designed the 200sx
conversion knowing that I only travel 5-10 miles a day. Still, there
are moments when I wish I'd gone for range over performance. Those
moments make me think about alternative technologies.
Of course, there is the promise of low-cost Li-Ion, NiMH, etc. It seems
that I always revert to casually researching aluminum air and zinc air
batteries. What I can't figure out is why there isn't anything
available for purchase. The concept seems extremely simple. There are
a few things I haven't been able to figure out. The most difficult to
comprehend is the air cathode. How is it made? Can this be
manufactured low-cost without special processes? If so, how? I think
most of the other challenges involve making it easy to recharge and
increasing the performance.
Other technical questions include:
1) What happens to the aluminum (or zinc)? For example, if you had a
slab of it in contact with the electrolyte, would it just dissolve into
the electrolyte (usually KOH, Potassium Hydroxide)?
2) Related to 1 - does just the aluminum (or zinc) need to be replaced,
or the electrolyte also?
I'm curious if anyone else has done much research on the topic. Do any
of you think this is a viable way to get longer-range batteries? Has
anyone tried building a prototype? Along those lines, I built up a
simple aluminum air battery using aluminum foil and activated charcoal.
It produced enough power to light an LED. It took just a few minutes to
build and was pretty crude - but demonstrated the concept. I found
directions on building it here:
http://www.exo.net/~pauld/activities/AlAirBattery/alairbattery.html
I would be interested in colaborating with anyone on this list to try to
build a prototype unit. There are enough things about it that I don't
understand by myself that I would need some other brains to get ideas
from. I don't think a prototype would be cost prohibitive. Both
aluminum and zinc can be found relatively cheap. The air cathode
remains the elusive item. I'm thinking a 12V unit with a high capacity,
low current draw. Subsequent units could tackle the higher-current
challenges (I understand that the available currents would be relatively
low - nothing like an Orbital :)).
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not to add fuel to the fire, but yes the Midget is rear wheel drive.
Parts can still be obtained - check Moss Motors for a start (not the
cheapest though). Now get back to work! :-)
Jay (who has a TR6 electric candidate)
On Mar 27, 2006, at 8:24 PM, Jim Coate wrote:
You guys are totally feeding my day dreams and keeping me
distracted from real work...
Is the MG front or rear wheel drive?
(so can it put towed on a dolly with the rear wheels still on the
road?)
Are parts still available, without an intense scavenger hunt?
Hmmmm.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, Mar 27, 2006 at 10:25:40PM -0700, Ryan Bohm wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> It seems that I always revert to casually researching aluminum air and
> zinc air batteries. What I can't figure out is why there isn't anything
> available for purchase.
<..snip..>
> I think most of the other challenges involve making it easy to recharge
> and increasing the performance.
Isn't it true that you need a mechanical process to recharge a Zinc-Air
battery? This would seem to be a pretty big downside right?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lots of TF bikes and related parts being sold tomorrow as part of
liquidation auction of Wavecrest facility in Virginia. Auction is being
held live on E-BAY and will be viewable if you'd like to watch or
participate. You can see what's being sold by going to:
http://www.americanaai.com/auctions/wavecrest.htm
and then accessing the highlighted "View the Online Catalog or Bid
Online" link.
Hope this helps!
-Ken Trough
V is for Voltage
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 14:44:21 -0800 (PST), Jim Husted
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hey Don, all
>
> Well I know John Waylands Siamese8 setup runs 772 ft. lbs. @ 348 volts. Now
> the armature doesn't see higher than 170 volts or you get a real nasty
> arc-over like we saw last year at Woodburn.
(You probably already know this, Jim, so bear with me.) A possible
solution to the commutator arcing over may be the so-called "arc
scrapers" that were used on motors and generators in the "good old
days".
An arc scraper is a baffle of flameproof material (pressed mica or
asbestos back then) that is mounted at an angle against the rotation
and almost touching the commutator. The idea is that an arc forming
downstream of a brush will be carried up the scraper and away from the
commutator by air currents.
Typically 3 or more scrapers were equally spaced between brush packs.
These were common on motors and generators that had to withstand
severe but short-term overloads. Steel mill rollers, trolley motors,
locomotive truck motors and the like.
Perhaps some scrapers could be fitted to John's motors. I have some
photos if you'd like to see them.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Bohm wrote:
> The air cathode remains the elusive item.
Hi Ryan,
Yeah, the old dream, still alive.
There is a lot of material out there, and a lot of research and
development, companies have come and gone, since the 90's.
Try http://www.electric-fuel.com/airelectrode/index.html, where you can
actually buy a roll of material for an air electrode.
Regards
Jim
Hi everyone,
Some days bring about "range woes". I specifically designed the 200sx
conversion knowing that I only travel 5-10 miles a day. Still, there
are moments when I wish I'd gone for range over performance. Those
moments make me think about alternative technologies.
Of course, there is the promise of low-cost Li-Ion, NiMH, etc. It seems
that I always revert to casually researching aluminum air and zinc air
batteries. What I can't figure out is why there isn't anything
available for purchase. The concept seems extremely simple. There are
a few things I haven't been able to figure out. The most difficult to
comprehend is the air cathode. How is it made? Can this be
manufactured low-cost without special processes? If so, how? I think
most of the other challenges involve making it easy to recharge and
increasing the performance.
Other technical questions include:
1) What happens to the aluminum (or zinc)? For example, if you had a
slab of it in contact with the electrolyte, would it just dissolve into
the electrolyte (usually KOH, Potassium Hydroxide)? 2) Related to 1 -
does just the aluminum (or zinc) need to be replaced, or the electrolyte
also?
I'm curious if anyone else has done much research on the topic. Do any
of you think this is a viable way to get longer-range batteries? Has
anyone tried building a prototype? Along those lines, I built up a
simple aluminum air battery using aluminum foil and activated charcoal.
It produced enough power to light an LED. It took just a few minutes to
build and was pretty crude - but demonstrated the concept. I found
directions on building it here:
http://www.exo.net/~pauld/activities/AlAirBattery/alairbattery.html
I would be interested in colaborating with anyone on this list to try to
build a prototype unit. There are enough things about it that I don't
understand by myself that I would need some other brains to get ideas
from. I don't think a prototype would be cost prohibitive. Both
aluminum and zinc can be found relatively cheap. The air cathode
remains the elusive item. I'm thinking a 12V unit with a high capacity,
low current draw. Subsequent units could tackle the higher-current
challenges (I understand that the available currents would be relatively
low - nothing like an Orbital :)).
-Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ANOTHER episode of "This New Car" is now on-line (MP3 recording) at
http://www.wicn.org/programs/thisnewcar/schedule.htm
Podcast/RSS support for "This New Car" is available on the same page.
The episodes are 30 minutes each and almost all meat, very little fat compared
to most talk shows. Listen and see if you agree.
The entire schedule of 13 weeks ...
Available ...
#1 Pros and Cons of Hybrid Vehicles
#2 Pros and Cons of Alternative-Energy Vehicles
#3 Hydrogen-combustion vehicles
#4 Fuel-cell vehicles
#5 Electric & plug-in vehicles
#6 New-technology vehicles
#7 What makes a hybrid a hybrid?
#8 Saving fuel with computers
#9 Detroit: Can the Motor City be hybrid-ized?
#10 "Green" vehicles: What are they and does the average consumer really care?
#11 What can be done about the cars currently on the road to make them
cleaner and more environmentally friendly?
#12 Are the state and federal governments doing enough to promote and support
"green" vehicles?
Coming ...
#13 Does everyone need to own a vehicle?
"This New Car", is a special 13-week edition of "The Business Beat", on
WICN/90.5 FM and at WICN.org in Worcester, MA, the National Public Radio
affiliate serving Central New England.
The experts for this lively, informative discussion on hybrid and
alternative-fuel vehicles are
Jim Dunn the NASA Center for Technology Commercialization
Gilles Labelle the Hybrid Center of Massachusetts at Westboro Toyota
Craig Van Batenburg the Automotive Career Development Center
all in Westboro Massachusetts.
"This New Car" is hosted by Steven Jones-D'Agostino of Best Rate Of Climb in
Worcester, MA, and sponsored exclusively by Westboro Toyota.
--
Mike Bianchi
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
It has been a while since sending my last message, but
I have been very busy the past few months,
unfortunately not building my EV, but with work, the
family and the such.
But I've managed to cook my little setup and start
saving the money for it, so there is a bright side to
it :)
Here's my thought:
12 or 14 Trojan T-145 6v 260 AH battery's
A Curtis controller (perhaps even a Zilla if my bank
account permits it :))
DC/DC converter (for radio, cd and car lights etc.)
a 9.1" Advanced DC engine 24-120v design (up to
26HP/19KW and a RPM range of 1000-5000 rpm)
This lot will be placed somewhere on a beetle chassis
minus the ICE and perhaps I'll drop the clutch too.
So let me hear what you think of it, even if it is
totally crap, I need the info before I continue to buy
the stuff.
thx in advance
Pascal
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan asked:
1) What happens to the aluminum (or zinc)? For example, if you had a
slab of it in contact with the electrolyte, would it just dissolve into
the electrolyte (usually KOH, Potassium Hydroxide)?
Either anode material reacts with the potassium hydroxide and goes into
solution with the electrolyte.
2) Related to 1 - does just the aluminum (or zinc) need to be replaced,
or the electrolyte also?
Both the metal anode (zinc or aluminum) and the electrolyte become depleted
and have to be replaced or "recharged" in some manner.
For most intents and purposes one could say the rechargeable aluminum air
battery HAS to be mechanically recharged.
The rechargeable zinc air battery can be mechanically OR electrically
recharged depending on the design of the battery.
In the early nineties (1991?) a Honda CRX (I think it was AC Propulsion's
car) used a zinc air battery to win an EV race at the Phoenix Racetrack. The
following year Arizona Public Service had a twin motor Saturn sporting a
similar
electrically recharged zinc air battery. The name of the battery maker escapes
me for the moment, but I have it in my files in another city. The battery used
a carbon cathode (air transferred through/across it) to conduct the electrons
as the zinc anode reacted with the air.
Aside from dendrite formation - which has been discussed on this list several
times, one drawback to rechargeable metal air batteries that I RARELY see
mentioned is the formation of potassium carbonate as the literally huge
quantities of reaction air are pumped through the KOH electrolyte. The carbon
dioxide
present in the air reacts with the electrolyte to form potassium carbonate
which substantially weakens the electrolyte over a short period of time.
Often the incoming air for the cathode is passed through a lithium hydroxide
filter to "scrub" the air of CO2. Later the lithium hydroxide is heated to
drive off the CO2. This is simple in theory, but a little harder in actual
practice, especially when economic factors come into play.
All that being said, I believe that neither problem, the dendrite formation
using electrical recharge nor the potassium carbonate issue is insurmountable.
I encourage you in your efforts to build a prototype metal air battery. The
zinc battery would probably be easier and more economically viable in regard to
recharge.
Lawson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan,
There appear to be some difficult problems to overcome. Metallic Power
was working on a Zinc-Air fuel cell, and had a prototype going, but then
went out of business. Their system used small zinc pellets and a KOH
electrolyte. The zinc got turned into zinc-oxide (a main ingredient in
sunblock, so pretty harmless) and captured in an onboard tank. To recharge,
you ran electricity into the system, and it turned the zinc oxide back into
zinc. This charging hardware could be either onboard or off-board. If
off-board, you could also refuel by dumping the zinc-oxide tank and pumping
in some new zinc pellets, which took 5 or 10 minutes.
Zinc-air has an energy density somewhere similar to Li-ion, but a low
power density, if I remember correctly. So you had to have a pretty large
amount onboard. I've seen pictures of Metallic Power's prototype car, and
it had equipment sticking out beyond the truck to accommodate everything.
Still, though, it had a top speed of only 45 MPH.
Another company with some zinc-air prototype bus and postal vans on the
road is www.electric-fuel.com. They took a slightly different approach to
recharging. They deliver the zinc in "cassettes" which slip into the car.
To refuel, you pull into a station, which quickly swaps out your old
cassette for a new one, then sends the old one back to a plant for
reprocessing back into zinc. This makes for quick refueling and unlimited
range, but requires an infrastructure of stations and plants.
There are also a couple of other companies working on the zinc-air fuel
cell.
The holy grail, of course, is aluminum-air. It has energy densities
currently around 800Wh/kg, and theoretically up to 1300Wh/kg. Even at
800Wh/kg, an aerodynamic car could go over 300 miles on 75kg of the stuff.
That's not much more weight than a tank of gas!
The major hurdle with aluminum-air has been that aluminum quickly develops
an oxide layer on its outer surface. This is one of the things that make
aluminum so stable and rust-free. Either breaking through this layer, or
stopping it from forming, is what companies are working on in order to make
aluminum-air fuel cells viable. Some other technical challenges are: 1)
controlling the aluminum oxidation reaction; 2) preventing the fouling of
the reaction anode surface; 3) providing a cathode which is active enough to
keep pace with the aluminum anode; and 4) handling the hydrogen generated in
the process.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Bohm
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 10:26 PM
To: EV List
Subject: Aluminum/Zinc air batteries
Hi everyone,
Some days bring about "range woes". I specifically designed the 200sx
conversion knowing that I only travel 5-10 miles a day. Still, there
are moments when I wish I'd gone for range over performance. Those
moments make me think about alternative technologies.
Of course, there is the promise of low-cost Li-Ion, NiMH, etc. It seems
that I always revert to casually researching aluminum air and zinc air
batteries. What I can't figure out is why there isn't anything
available for purchase. The concept seems extremely simple. There are
a few things I haven't been able to figure out. The most difficult to
comprehend is the air cathode. How is it made? Can this be
manufactured low-cost without special processes? If so, how? I think
most of the other challenges involve making it easy to recharge and
increasing the performance.
Other technical questions include:
1) What happens to the aluminum (or zinc)? For example, if you had a
slab of it in contact with the electrolyte, would it just dissolve into
the electrolyte (usually KOH, Potassium Hydroxide)?
2) Related to 1 - does just the aluminum (or zinc) need to be replaced,
or the electrolyte also?
I'm curious if anyone else has done much research on the topic. Do any
of you think this is a viable way to get longer-range batteries? Has
anyone tried building a prototype? Along those lines, I built up a
simple aluminum air battery using aluminum foil and activated charcoal.
It produced enough power to light an LED. It took just a few minutes to
build and was pretty crude - but demonstrated the concept. I found
directions on building it here:
http://www.exo.net/~pauld/activities/AlAirBattery/alairbattery.html
I would be interested in colaborating with anyone on this list to try to
build a prototype unit. There are enough things about it that I don't
understand by myself that I would need some other brains to get ideas
from. I don't think a prototype would be cost prohibitive. Both
aluminum and zinc can be found relatively cheap. The air cathode
remains the elusive item. I'm thinking a 12V unit with a high capacity,
low current draw. Subsequent units could tackle the higher-current
challenges (I understand that the available currents would be relatively
low - nothing like an Orbital :)).
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philippe said:-
imho, STM5-100 will stay here for few years more...
from one point of view it's a very good thing because this batteries are
the
best EV batterie actually at their price (remember always stating imho,
not
starting a debat here)
What price have you been quoted Philippe. I asked SAFT for a price and they
said £250 per 6v battery. ($450). To re-equip my Citroen this would cost
around £6000 ($11000).
I think they are very expensive.
Amities
John
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--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 3/27/06 8:39:53 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: Jim's Warp Motor "cleanup"
Date: 3/27/06 8:39:53 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Lee Hart)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Ryan Stotts wrote:
> What if you got some 1"(or thicker) aluminum plate and had it rolled
> into a cylinder shape of the proper size and had the seam welded to
> make a new motor frame out of it?
The iron case provides the return path for the magnetic field of the
pole pieces. The motor would work very badly if you replaced the case
with aluminum.
You may say, "But I have an AC motor with an aluminum case." True; they
do use an aluminum, or even plastic case sometimes. But if you look
inside, you'll see that the iron laminations then go all the way around,
completing the path without depending on the case.
To lighten the motor, you'll have to find the parts that are not
important either for carrying the magnetic fields, or electric current,
or structural parts needed for mechanical strength.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.ne >>
** I agree Lee.The racers out there know that I have tried shaving weight off
the cases of my motors only to find a loss of ET in the end.I have found the
loss happens in the 1st 300 feet (or so ) of the qt.mi.I have 3 different 11
inch cases I have tried this on.I can agree with Jim Husted about shaving the
outside of the case down to a point of just cleaning it up to a point where its
even all around.It may be possible to take material off the ends of the case
on a LOW rpm motor and make it work better in a drag race app.loosing some of
that unusable bottom torque.(tire spin).The large series motor going in my
Street/strip truck has nothing taking of the end of the case. Dennis Berube
with
the 8 second 121lb drag motor
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--- Begin Message ---
I also just bought one of these for my Comuta-van which has a 72v pack.
It mounted perfectly on the transmission hump behind the fuse block so it's
nearly invisible. I use it as my onboard charger but I still use the
dual-output Lestermatic as my home charger. It's 220v so it's faster and
it's smarter because it'll turn off.
The Schumacher is dumb so watch it carefully. John is going to help me
incorporate a voltage shut off and timer circuit into the dumb charger.
Perhaps you should contact him as well. He'll help you "smarten" it up a
bit.
Rich A.
Maryland
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--- Begin Message ---
I have a Curtis expanded voltmeter in my Comuta Van which has worked well so
far. Now I'd like to expand my knowledge and incorporate an ammeter.
I don't want to go to the expense of putting an E-meter or anything fancy in
this old postal van. That'd be like hanging a chandelier in a haunted house.
I just want a plain ammeter I can mount on the dash and if someone could
explain the proper way to connect it I'd be very grateful.
I have a large shunt at home. I'll post the specs as soon as I can get a
look at it. As I understand it, the ammeter needs to be connected to the
shunt (small gauge holes) and the battery flows through it connected to the
larger lugs.
Thanks for the assist,
Rich A.
Maryland
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Well I knew it was too good to last...
For a week I was plugging in at the county parking garage at the Metro
station. The garage has 110 outlets for maintenance on many of the support
columns. These were not "designated" for EV use.
The garage maintenance guy has been unplugging me (but not leaving a note so
I didn't know who was doing it or if there was a problem) because I'm
"stealin' enr'gy". I patiently explained that my charger probably only uses
.50 cents' worth of juice while it sits there. They put me in contact with
the manager. I'm hoping he'll come through for me so I can keep charging.
Temps here have been in the low 30's in the a.m. to mid 50's in the p.m. I
can make it round-trip without charging but that last half mile in my 30
mile round-trip is a bit slow. I hate to take the batteries down that far if
I don't have to.
Does anyone have any suggestions for how to approach people, or maybe the
state legislature about plugging in?
Thanks,
Rich A.
Maryland
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Here is some data you could used for your design of your EV. It was derided
by a engineer back in the 70's when he wrote a paper on the design and
calculations used on a VW Beetle that he built and tested.
Knowns:
VW Beetle final overall gear ratio = 4:1
Weight with eight 6-volt batteries was about 2500 lbs.
(in your case with 14 T-145s will be about 3000 lbs.)
Aircraft 28 volt starter, that was modified to run on 48 volts.
Eight 6 volt 220 AH battery pack of 48 volts.
(in your design this would be 84 volts at 260 AH)
The Ampere-Hour rating of the T-145's would be 260 AH for a 20 hour rating
at 5 amps
The T-145's have a rating of 75 amperes for 145 minutes which would be
145/60 = 2.41 hrs or 2.41 hrs x 75 amps = 181 AH.
The batteries at 50% discharge would have a remaining ampere-hour of about
90 AH which is the minimum you should draw them down to.
The ratio formula:
Volts = Amps = Watts = weight = gear ratio = mph = time in mins.
2 300 600 100 4:1 50 60
For every 100 lbs of weight you need 600 watts to propel 100 lbs of weight
at 50 mph for 60 minutes.
If you have 3000 lbs of weight, then:
3000 lbs /100 = 30
600 watts x 30 = 18,000 watts required for 50 mph for 60 minutes.
If you discharge the batteries to only 50% then you would need 36,000 watts
of batteries.
14 each T-145's = 6V x 260AH x 14 = 21,840 watts at a 20 hour rating.
AT 75 amps it would be 6V x 181AH x 14 = 15,204 watts for 145 minutes of
driving down to a 20% discharge.
If you do most of the driving in city with a maximum speed of 25 mph and
average speed of 15 mph, you could hold the the ampere to 25 amperes. I
have a 7000 lb EV and at that speed with 30 each T-145's, the battery ampere
is 30 to 40 amps.
At 25 ampere, the T-145's have a reserved capacity of 520 minutes at 25
amps. At 50% or 260 minutes, you could have 260/60 = 4.33 hours of driving
time. This would be 25 mph x 4.33 = 108 miles if you are at 100% effiency.
You could be closer to 80%.
You could use a on line EV Calculation by just typing in your search engine:
Uve's Electric Vehicle Calculator.
I had my EV, a proto type name TRANSFORMER I before I applied these
calculations to it. The results was very little difference between the two.
It calculated I would have a 123 mile range at 80 percent discharge battery
pack in 1st gear at 10 mph. In final gear at 80 mph the range would be down
to 20 mph.
Roland
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pascal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 7:28 AM
Subject: my (theoretical) setup
> Hi all,
>
> It has been a while since sending my last message, but
> I have been very busy the past few months,
> unfortunately not building my EV, but with work, the
> family and the such.
>
> But I've managed to cook my little setup and start
> saving the money for it, so there is a bright side to
> it :)
>
> Here's my thought:
>
> 12 or 14 Trojan T-145 6v 260 AH battery's
> A Curtis controller (perhaps even a Zilla if my bank
> account permits it :))
> DC/DC converter (for radio, cd and car lights etc.)
> a 9.1" Advanced DC engine 24-120v design (up to
> 26HP/19KW and a RPM range of 1000-5000 rpm)
>
> This lot will be placed somewhere on a beetle chassis
> minus the ICE and perhaps I'll drop the clutch too.
>
> So let me hear what you think of it, even if it is
> totally crap, I need the info before I continue to buy
> the stuff.
>
> thx in advance
>
> Pascal
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Rich,
I had do same problem of plugging in at work. My meter in my car, show that
I was only using about $5.00 a month, so I offer to throw in a additional
$5.00 in the coffee fund.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 9:21 AM
Subject: Public charging in states other than California
> Well I knew it was too good to last...
>
> For a week I was plugging in at the county parking garage at the Metro
> station. The garage has 110 outlets for maintenance on many of the support
> columns. These were not "designated" for EV use.
>
> The garage maintenance guy has been unplugging me (but not leaving a note
> so
> I didn't know who was doing it or if there was a problem) because I'm
> "stealin' enr'gy". I patiently explained that my charger probably only
> uses
> .50 cents' worth of juice while it sits there. They put me in contact with
> the manager. I'm hoping he'll come through for me so I can keep charging.
>
> Temps here have been in the low 30's in the a.m. to mid 50's in the p.m. I
> can make it round-trip without charging but that last half mile in my 30
> mile round-trip is a bit slow. I hate to take the batteries down that far
> if
> I don't have to.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions for how to approach people, or maybe the
> state legislature about plugging in?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rich A.
> Maryland
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 11:11:15 -0500, "Richard Acuti"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>The Schumacher is dumb so watch it carefully. John is going to help me
>incorporate a voltage shut off and timer circuit into the dumb charger.
>Perhaps you should contact him as well. He'll help you "smarten" it up a
>bit.
I have one of these chargers on order. As soon as it gets here I'll
design the controls and post the details to my web site. I'm going to
build it into my charger, though it can be stand-alone too.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 3/28/06 12:00:46 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: DC Motors for Racing (and Matt's Nissan 200SX)
Date: 3/28/06 12:00:46 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Neon John)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 14:44:21 -0800 (PST), Jim Husted
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hey Don, all
>
> Well I know John Waylands Siamese8 setup runs 772 ft. lbs. @ 348 volts.
Now the armature doesn't see higher than 170 volts or you get a real nasty
arc-over like we saw last year at Woodburn.
(You probably already know this, Jim, so bear with me.) A possible
solution to the commutator arcing over may be the so-called "arc
scrapers" that were used on motors and generators in the "good old
days".
An arc scraper is a baffle of flameproof material (pressed mica or
asbestos back then) that is mounted at an angle against the rotation
and almost touching the commutator. The idea is that an arc forming
downstream of a brush will be carried up the scraper and away from the
commutator by air currents.
Typically 3 or more scrapers were equally spaced between brush packs.
These were common on motors and generators that had to withstand
severe but short-term overloads. Steel mill rollers, trolley motors,
locomotive truck motors and the like.
Perhaps some scrapers could be fitted to John's motors. I have some
photos if you'd like to see them.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
>>
**The bottom line I believe is to not have the brushes arcing to begin
with.If the brushes arc to a point of flashover you damage the comm,brushes and
possibly the brush holders and more..If your brushes arc over the white line
limit
you will still pit the trailing edge of each bar and with time cause even
more arcing.You will also loose ET.and be inconsitent.For a while Bill Dube
thought I had scrapers in my Current Eliminator motors.I have never had any
deflector on CE. Dennis Berube with comms. that belong in a text book
--- End Message ---
