EV Digest 5289
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Ammeter for newbie
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: PFC-20 and regulator woes
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: PFC-20 and regulator woes
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: toe, was: camber
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: my (theoretical) setup
by Pascal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Public charging in states other than California
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: my (theoretical) setup
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: my (theoretical) setup
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Ammeter for newbie
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Chloride controller on eBay
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Another eBay find: 3hp BLDC motor+controller
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: Ammeter for newbie
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Electric Nissan 240SX vs Modern Gas Performance Cars
by "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
ammeter is just a millivoltmeter reading the voltage of a shunt.
Problem is common LCD millivoltmeters scale are 200mv and common shunt are
50mv full scale for 500A
so you have to find suitable millivoltmeter (analog ammeter) or a suitable
shunt to your meter.
this will help you a lot more than my words, i think:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/HBASE/magnetic/ammet.html
look at Ebay inexpensive analog vintage ammeter are often available.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 6:15 PM
Subject: Ammeter for newbie
> I have a Curtis expanded voltmeter in my Comuta Van which has worked well
so
> far. Now I'd like to expand my knowledge and incorporate an ammeter.
>
> I don't want to go to the expense of putting an E-meter or anything fancy
in
> this old postal van. That'd be like hanging a chandelier in a haunted
house.
> I just want a plain ammeter I can mount on the dash and if someone could
> explain the proper way to connect it I'd be very grateful.
>
> I have a large shunt at home. I'll post the specs as soon as I can get a
> look at it. As I understand it, the ammeter needs to be connected to the
> shunt (small gauge holes) and the battery flows through it connected to
the
> larger lugs.
>
> Thanks for the assist,
>
> Rich A.
> Maryland
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Let me say you have a good price !
very expensive ? it's only one part of equation, expensive compared to what
? lithium ? lead acid ? apples ? (sorry)
no ! compared to a service !
For $11000 and good care your batteries will last way more than 1500 cycles
which turn to be minimum 120 000km (80 000 miles) still giving near 80% of
initial capacity.
They Will give you every day 80km range, winter and summer (55 miles)
without worring about deep discharge (opposite in fact)
This said, write real numbers for competitors and then you will find which
is expensive and which is a good battery choice, though at a high initial
price, for every day use "forget me" commute.
I'm sorry to say there is no simple choice for such OEM car as you MUST use
exactly same batteries or you will have to switch all EV components which
are controlled by the Electronic Control Unit (charger, DC-DC,
controller...and even maybe the sepex motor/gearbox/diff. if you can't find
suitable sepex controller...)
So imho your choice are:
-puting $10 000 to assemble a completely new EV system "maybe better" car
(licensing it again etc.)
-puting $11 000 in batteries and just drive it
-finding another one second hand with good batteries (let me say near
impossible nowdays)
-...junkyard it :^(
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:24 AM
Subject: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
> Philippe said:-
>
> > imho, STM5-100 will stay here for few years more...
> >
> > from one point of view it's a very good thing because this batteries are
> > the
> > best EV batterie actually at their price (remember always stating imho,
> > not
> > starting a debat here)
> >
>
> What price have you been quoted Philippe. I asked SAFT for a price and
they
> said £250 per 6v battery. ($450). To re-equip my Citroen this would cost
> around £6000 ($11000).
>
> I think they are very expensive.
>
> Amities
>
> John
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
First it sounds like you have a bad regulator.
That happens...a lot more often than I like.
The charger... not making power. that's a bad thing.
The Bussing sounds like you have a blown transitor in the power stage.
Ship it back I will get it back on line. Since we are relativeley close,
This should be a quick fix.
I will replace the Reg and retest everything.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Weathers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 4:28 PM
Subject: PFC-20 and regulator woes
> I think I may have a problem with a Mk2b regulator and my PFC-20
> charger.
>
> One of my regulators, when connected to the REGBUS, caused the charger
> to immediately stop charging. I believe the blue light would come on
> solid, but I can't verify it any more - see below. It's not the REGBUS
> cables - I've tried it in different places with different cables.
>
> If the suspected bad regulator was not on the REGBUS then charging
> seemed to be taking place. The voltage would rise, and the regulators
> would flash green, and the amber light on the charger would flash along
> with them making a clicking sound every time a regulator kicked in.
> Eventually the timer light would be solid blue and the batteries would
> be gently fizzing.
>
> While troubleshooting, I did something that caused the PFC-20 to emit a
> quiet buzzing sound and a bad smell. Now it doesn't appear to be
> charging.
>
> I believe the thing I did just before the smell was to unplug the
> REGBUS cable from the bad regulator, which was on the far end of the
> daisy chain from the charger at the time.
>
> Now when I turn on the charger, the green POWER LED comes on, and the
> red WARN LED blinks twice and goes out. The LIMITS and TIMER LEDs stay
> off. If the amps knob is turned all the way down it doesn't buzz, but
> as you turn up the amps the buzzing noise gets louder. It's never very
> loud, though.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Doug
>
> --
> Doug Weathers
> Bend, OR, USA
> <http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With complexity aside, which version of your regulator was the most
reliable in your opinion Rich?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> First it sounds like you have a bad regulator.
> That happens...a lot more often than I like.
>
> The charger... not making power. that's a bad thing.
> The Bussing sounds like you have a blown transitor in the power stage.
>
> Ship it back I will get it back on line. Since we are relativeley close,
> This should be a quick fix.
>
> I will replace the Reg and retest everything.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Doug Weathers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 4:28 PM
> Subject: PFC-20 and regulator woes
>
>
> > I think I may have a problem with a Mk2b regulator and my PFC-20
> > charger.
> >
> > One of my regulators, when connected to the REGBUS, caused the charger
> > to immediately stop charging. I believe the blue light would come on
> > solid, but I can't verify it any more - see below. It's not the
REGBUS
> > cables - I've tried it in different places with different cables.
> >
> > If the suspected bad regulator was not on the REGBUS then charging
> > seemed to be taking place. The voltage would rise, and the regulators
> > would flash green, and the amber light on the charger would flash
along
> > with them making a clicking sound every time a regulator kicked in.
> > Eventually the timer light would be solid blue and the batteries would
> > be gently fizzing.
> >
> > While troubleshooting, I did something that caused the PFC-20 to
emit a
> > quiet buzzing sound and a bad smell. Now it doesn't appear to be
> > charging.
> >
> > I believe the thing I did just before the smell was to unplug the
> > REGBUS cable from the bad regulator, which was on the far end of the
> > daisy chain from the charger at the time.
> >
> > Now when I turn on the charger, the green POWER LED comes on, and the
> > red WARN LED blinks twice and goes out. The LIMITS and TIMER LEDs
stay
> > off. If the amps knob is turned all the way down it doesn't buzz, but
> > as you turn up the amps the buzzing noise gets louder. It's never
very
> > loud, though.
> >
> > Any suggestions?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Doug
> >
> > --
> > Doug Weathers
> > Bend, OR, USA
> > <http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
-----Original Message-----
From: Dana Havranek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 01:31:56 +0000
Subject: Re: toe, was: camber
<<If it's set neutral, the wheels *will* tend towards toe-out at speed.
Excellent point.
If you set the toe to 0 you will have toe out in motion.
I set the toe to 1/16th in and hope it will be 0 under way.
Ben
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I just want to add one more comment to this thread before it grows
any older.
When I learned how
to do alignments in auto school, toe-in was called the tire wearing
angle. One
of the main reasons
for getting it right was to prevent premature wear. If the toe is too
far in,
or
out, your tires
will scuff the pavement causing rolling resistance and tire wear. Toe
adjustment
(in or out)
compensates for the play in your front end parts. In rear wheel drive
cars the
front tires tend to
push back and you might add some toe in to balance it out. The net
result is
the
tires point
straight down the road and don't wear excessively. Generally front
wheel drive
cars will have the
opposite problem. Since the front tires are pulling the car, they
will try to
go
to a toe in
condition, so you may have to adjust towards toe out.
An easy way to see this is to grab one front tire and try to rock it
back and
forth as if you were
trying to turn the wheels (the same direction the steering wheel
does). You
will
probably be able
to move the tire a little without moving the other side due to the
play in
your
front end. It's
almost impossible to eliminate all the slop.
One of the simplest ways to tell if your tires have a toe problem is
to feel
the
top of the tire.
Run you hand back and forth across the tread on top of the tire at a
right
angle
to the direction
of rotation. If you have too much toe out or in all the raised
portions will
tend to wear on one
side. You can easily feel a sharp edge moving your hand in one
direction but
it
will feel smooth
in the other.
Caster of course will affect the way the cars feels going down the
road. Lot's
of caster will help
the car move in a straight line. Little or no caster will make the
car feel
squirrely. But caster
and camber don't have a drastic affect (if any) on tire wear or
rolling
resistance. Generally
camber adjustment is so limited you have to really work at it to get
in
trouble.
A little longer than I'd planned, but maybe it will help.
Dave Cover
--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Here is how I corrected the excessive toe-in of my Prius
> (it was probably even out of manufacturer spec, but certainly
> way too much to be "LRR" and I certainly noticed a jump up
> in mileage after this correction)
>
> - My garage floor is almost level, a car needs a push to start
> rolling out onto the street, so I used this as my "basis".
>
> - I looked up the Tread Width for front and rear wheels and
> found out that the rear has a slightly wider Tread than front.
>
> - I set the steering wheel straight and rolled the car back and
> forth to settle tolerances.
>
> - Then I checked when glancing along the outside wall of each
> front wheel if I could see a slight of the rear wheel, when
> the front and back side of the front tire were aligned.
> (looking along it at hub height)
>
> (If your rear Tread Width is smaller than front, it may help to
> draw a chalk line outside the rear wheel at 1/2 the difference
> as a target to aim for. In the above case, you may also draw a
> line from front to the rear tires, hitting them at the front
> Tread Width distance.)
>
> At this point I noticed that the "line" of the front wheel ran
> way past the rear wheel due to too much toe-in.
> This was easily corrected on each front wheel and when I could
> see a thin line of the rear wheel, about 1/2 the difference
> between front and rear Thread Width, I noticed that I could
> move the car more easily when pushing it by hand and the MPG
> went up several miles per gallon.
> Since zero toe-in is actually within manufacturer spec, I did not
> worry about safety and handling and in fact it is still handling
> very comfortably, I cannot pry the Prius out of my wife's
> fingers, so it is good I like the electric truck....
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of ProEV
> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 5:26 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: camber
>
>
>
> Mike wrote
>
> > Raise your hand if you have a fast street driven EV? That's what I
> > thought.
>
> I'm suspect that came across a little ruder than you intended. I
also think
> you might find that some of the people who have done the most
thinking on
> this question are in seriously power limited EV's such as Solar
Raycers and
> Eletrathon competitors.
>
> Dave wrote
>
> <Seems to me I saw something about improving less rolling
resistance by
> <front end alignment that zeroes camber.
>
>
> It's been my experience that to minimize rolling resistance, most
cars can
> benefit from a basic alignment. Do the front wheels point the same
way as
> the rear wheels and do they both point the same way as the body?
>
> Then setting the toe can help.
>
> Finally camber might help but at the cost of tire grip while
> cornering.
>
> At ProEV, we always try to do a full alignment before we race a new
car. The
>
> alignment almost always uncovers a way to improve the car.
>
> There are a million techniques to get the same information. Here is
a rough
> and ready way that will give most people useful information. What
seems the
> best way to me might not to others, so modify to suit.
>
> Checking the alignment on your street EV can be done fairly cheaply
if you
> have a level, a ruler, some chalk, fishing line and do not mind
crawling
> around. Plumb bob, right angle and jack stands are optional. We
> use a 12 foot builder's level in the race shop but a smaller level
and a
> long
> straight edge work just as well.
>
> Step 1: Find a level area.
>
> Take your level and find a flat level area bigger than the car,
> preferable with a hard floor. The area should be level fore and aft
and
> side to side. The more accurate you are, the more exact your
results. NASCAR
> teams pour special level floors but you can get workable
> results with out being fanatical.
>
> Step 2: Put your car in the center of your level area.
>
> Center the steering wheel. Inflate the tires evenly. For better
accuracy,
> have someone sit in the driver's seat.
>
> Step 3: Locate and mark the center line of the car.
>
> There a number of things that can help you decide where the center
line
> should be. They can disagree and then you just have to choose. We
start at
> suspension pivot points. Use a plumb bob (or a string and a small
weight)
> and chalk to mark the position of the suspension pivot point on the
floor.
> Do
> the same on the other side of the car. Draw a line between the two
points.
> measure the distance and mark the middle. Do the same thing with
two pick up
> points in the rear. Draw a line that connects the two middle marks
and
> extends out the front and rear of the car for at least a foot.
>
> It would be nice if this center line comes out at the middle of the
body in
> the front and rear. If it does not, then you have to decide if you
want your
> body square to the air flow or your suspension symmetrical. For a
low drag
> street EV, keeping your aero body square to the air flow is
probably worth
> more. In that case, chose the center of the front of the body and
the
> center of the rear of the body. Draw a line between the two (and
extend them
> a foot behind and in front of the car).
>
> Step 4: Mark a box around the car.
>
> Using the center line, draw a line perpendicular to the center line
and 1
> foot in front of the car. It needs to extend a couple of inches
beyond the
> width of the car on either side. Do the same at the rear. Measure
the same
> distance out from the center line in the front and the rear and
draw a line.
> It should be close to the car. If all your corners are 90 degrees
then you
> probably measured right.
>
> Step 5: Measure the wheel locations at wheel center height.
>
> Fishing line and 2 jack stands make this easier. Check how high the
center
> of the wheel is. Set the jackstands at either end of one of the
chalked
> sidelines. Tie the fishing line to the jack stands at the wheel
center line
> height and pull it tight. It should mimic the chalk line but up in
the air.
> Measure the
> distance between the fishing line and a point on the wheel face at
the front
> of the rim and the rear of the rim. Make sure the point you are
measuring is
> not odd-bent rim, odd bulge on tire, etc. Make sure your ruler is
square to
> the fishing line. Write down the measurements. Repeat for all
wheels.
>
> Step 6: Interpret the data.
>
> The difference between the front and rear measurements on one wheel
is toe.
> If the distance from the front of the rim to the fishing line is
greater
> than the distance from fishing line to the rear of the rim, you
have toe in.
> Otherway around, toe out. Equal is zero toe.
>
> Add the two measurements for a rear wheel and compare it to the sum
of the
> measurement for the front wheel on the same side. If the car has
the same
> size wheels and track, the totals should be the same. If not, your
front and
> rear wheel do not line up. More drag especially in the wet or snow.
>
> If you add the two measurements for the rear wheel and compare it
to the sum
> of the measurement for the other rear wheel. If they do not match,
the
> wheels are offset to the body. Do the same for the front.
>
> For the least rolling resistance, all 8 measurements should be
same. That
> would give you zero toe front and rear with the front and rear
wheels lined
> up square to the body. This will change the handling of the car. Do
not do
> this unless you know what you are doing and reconize that you might
be
> risking life and limb
> in a possibly ill handling car.
>
> Test the car in a safe area. Try it at different speeds and braking,
> turning, accelerating and in combinations. If the steering wanders,
try more
> caster. If the turn-in is slow, increase the rake or play with the
Ackerman
> steering.
>
> Cliff
> www.ProEV.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland,
Thx for the calculations, saves me a lot of computing
time :)
Earlier on this list (I believe last november)I
mentioned that it was for commuting only, roughly 10
km (8 or 9 miles)and the maximum speed I would need
to keep up with the other traffic is 100 km/h(62 or 63
mph). But if I have to drive to the National Reserve
that would be 80 km (41 or 42 miles) and then the
maximum speedlimit would be 120 km/h (74 or 75 mph).
With my 'normal' car I can get from home to work in
about 10 or 15 minutes, and I guess that that would
also be the time I need when driving an EV. Driving to
the National Reserve takes about 30 to 40 minutes.
But now that you mentioned it, if my EV is ready (and
tested by the goverment) I could drive it on a
saturday until my battery's are empty so I could check
and see how far it would go on a full charge.
Regards
Pascal
> > From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: my (theoretical) setup
> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 09:36:53 -0700
>
> Here is some data you could used for your design of
> your EV. It was derided
> by a engineer back in the 70's when he wrote a paper
> on the design and
> calculations used on a VW Beetle that he built and
> tested.
>
> Knowns:
>
> VW Beetle final overall gear ratio = 4:1
> Weight with eight 6-volt batteries was about 2500
> lbs.
> (in your case with 14 T-145s will be about
> 3000 lbs.)
> Aircraft 28 volt starter, that was modified to run
> on 48 volts.
> Eight 6 volt 220 AH battery pack of 48 volts.
> (in your design this would be 84 volts at
> 260 AH)
>
> The Ampere-Hour rating of the T-145's would be 260
> AH for a 20 hour rating
> at 5 amps
>
> The T-145's have a rating of 75 amperes for 145
> minutes which would be
> 145/60 = 2.41 hrs or 2.41 hrs x 75 amps = 181 AH.
>
> The batteries at 50% discharge would have a
> remaining ampere-hour of about
> 90 AH which is the minimum you should draw them down
> to.
>
>
> The ratio formula:
>
> Volts = Amps = Watts = weight = gear ratio = mph =
> time in mins.
>
> 2 300 600 100 4:1 50
> 60
>
>
> For every 100 lbs of weight you need 600 watts to
> propel 100 lbs of weight
> at 50 mph for 60 minutes.
>
> If you have 3000 lbs of weight, then:
>
> 3000 lbs /100 = 30
>
> 600 watts x 30 = 18,000 watts required for 50 mph
> for 60 minutes.
>
> If you discharge the batteries to only 50% then you
> would need 36,000 watts
> of batteries.
>
> 14 each T-145's = 6V x 260AH x 14 = 21,840 watts at
> a 20 hour rating.
>
> AT 75 amps it would be 6V x 181AH x 14 = 15,204
> watts for 145 minutes of
> driving down to a 20% discharge.
>
> If you do most of the driving in city with a maximum
> speed of 25 mph and
> average speed of 15 mph, you could hold the the
> ampere to 25 amperes. I
> have a 7000 lb EV and at that speed with 30 each
> T-145's, the battery ampere
> is 30 to 40 amps.
>
> At 25 ampere, the T-145's have a reserved capacity
> of 520 minutes at 25
> amps. At 50% or 260 minutes, you could have 260/60
> = 4.33 hours of driving
> time. This would be 25 mph x 4.33 = 108 miles if
> you are at 100% effiency.
> You could be closer to 80%.
>
> You could use a on line EV Calculation by just
> typing in your search engine:
> Uve's Electric Vehicle Calculator.
>
> I had my EV, a proto type name TRANSFORMER I before
> I applied these
> calculations to it. The results was very little
> difference between the two.
> It calculated I would have a 123 mile range at 80
> percent discharge battery
> pack in 1st gear at 10 mph. In final gear at 80 mph
> the range would be down
> to 20 mph.
>
> Roland
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pascal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 7:28 AM
> Subject: my (theoretical) setup
>
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > It has been a while since sending my last message,
> but
> > I have been very busy the past few months,
> > unfortunately not building my EV, but with work,
> the
> > family and the such.
> >
> > But I've managed to cook my little setup and start
> > saving the money for it, so there is a bright side
> to
> > it :)
> >
> > Here's my thought:
> >
> > 12 or 14 Trojan T-145 6v 260 AH battery's
> > A Curtis controller (perhaps even a Zilla if my
> bank
> > account permits it :))
> > DC/DC converter (for radio, cd and car lights
> etc.)
> > a 9.1" Advanced DC engine 24-120v design (up to
> > 26HP/19KW and a RPM range of 1000-5000 rpm)
> >
> > This lot will be placed somewhere on a beetle
> chassis
> > minus the ICE and perhaps I'll drop the clutch
> too.
> >
> > So let me hear what you think of it, even if it is
> > totally crap, I need the info before I continue to
> buy
> > the stuff.
> >
> > thx in advance
> >
> > Pascal
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
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Rich,
>From your POST I gather you plugged in without permission, and now
you are seeking permission their management.
I highly recommend that EV'rs do not do this. I have been driving
electric since 1992, and have done my share of mistakes like this.
When I did this, it then became harder to get permission, even
when payment is offered. Also, it leaves a bad impression of EV'rs
('They just want a free ride').
Over the years, I have learned it is better to seek permission,
than to just plug in. Also, that permission has to reaffirmed
when the host has changes in management.
In my early EV years, I would just plug in when ever I found an
outlet. One time at a Beacon gas station the attendant went
postal, saying I was stealing all their money. When I offered to
throw 5 dollars at him, he still was not happy ('You are a thief').
I had a verbal permission years ago to plug in at a shopping mall.
Once, I came back to find my EV had been towed away. There was
a new Security team at the Mall, and those gals were hot to impress
Mall management. They called the San Bruno police, who had my EV
towed away.
To get my EV back, the police officer had me finger printed and
said I was going to be charged with a felony for stealing. I
politely told him that I used less than $.50 of electricity, and
he said "Oh, hmm, that means the attorney will not pursue the
charges for that little cost"
But it is still on my record and my power cord is still in the San
Bruno Police station evidence room. So over $600 later, I had my
EV back and a painful experience to remember.
Always get a written permission, even if you have to write the
letter, and have them sign it. Keep a photo copy at home, and the
original in the EV so you can whip it out when challenged.
I was able to find the right person to ask at my College. They
gave me a signed letter giving me permission to plug in at the
College. I keep the original in the EV, and gave a copy to the
campus police. Each year I check with the campus police to make
sure they still have the copy on file. Sometimes it gets buried
in their binder. This also makes the Sargent remind his Officers
I have permission.
I recommend EV'rs always get permission first, rather than being
towed away.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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--- Begin Message ---
Pascal wrote:
> 12 or 14 Trojan T-145 6v 260 AH battery's
> A Curtis controller (perhaps even a Zilla if my bank
> account permits it :)
> DC/DC converter (for radio, cd and car lights etc.)
> a 9.1" Advanced DC engine 24-120v design (up to
>
> This lot will be placed somewhere on a beetle chassis
> minus the ICE and perhaps I'll drop the clutch too.
>
> So let me hear what you think of it, even if it is
> totally crap, I need the info before I continue to buy
> the stuff.
12-14 6v batteries is a 72-84v pack, good for about 500a max. That's
really too low to bother with a 9" motor or Zilla controller. I would
suggest using a 6.7" motor instead; a used 48v Prestolite MTC-4001 for
example. You won't overheat this motor before the pack goes dead, so a
larger motor is mostly superfluous.
Likewise for the controller. A Curtis 1221C would be adequate, and a
1231C should be plenty. The Zilla is a much nicer controller, but only
justifiable if you expect to significantly upgrade your systems someday.
I'd keep the clutch. With a lower-power system like this, shifting
provides better accelleration and hillclimbing.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
About 2/3 of way down on
http://geocities.com/brucedp/evbatt.html
shows a cycle life graph of a T105.
I suggest you also calculate how far you can go when at the end
of your pack's cycle life.
My last year of pack life does not get me as far. I have to plan
for charging half way out.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
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. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
Richard Acuti wrote:
> I have a Curtis expanded voltmeter in my Comuta Van which has worked
> well so far.
Curtis? The original was Anderson.
> Now I'd like to expand my knowledge and incorporate an ammeter.
> an E-meter... in this old postal van... like hanging a chandelier
> in a haunted house.
I like that analogy :-)
If you are using the stock contactor controller, then wire your ammeter
to measure motor current. Battery current keeps changing as you switch
between series/parallel. Otherwise the parallel step will only show you
half the battery current (the curent in one of the half-packs).
Motor current also tells you if/when you are overloading the motor.
There is no current limit with a contactor controller, so it is easy to
"fry" the motor by driving in too high a gear, for example.
If you have a PWM controller (Curtis or whatever), then you can put the
ammeter in series with the pack. The controller limits moto current, so
it's less important to watch it.
In either case, you can use a real shunt with a 50mv full-scale meter.
Or, you can use any old meter whose looks you lke, and connect it across
some length of wire that's already in place. Put a little trimpot in
series, and calibrate it with a known meter.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just out of curiousity, was this controller meant for a shunt/sep-ex motor:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7604707406
If so, where are appropriate motors sold?
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--- Begin Message ---
This appears to be about half the size of an Etek, was listed for boat use, but
since the control schematic lists braking, it might do regen:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4626156663
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Also you do not want the meter to peg the needle hard. If you can draw
600A peaks on that 500A shunt it probably won't damage the needle. But
if you draw 1500A peaks when you first hit the gas, you'll probably bend
the movement even though it's too short to overheat the shunt.
So you want to size your shunt and meter so the meter won't peg, and the
max sustained current won't overheat the shunt.
Danny
Philippe Borges wrote:
ammeter is just a millivoltmeter reading the voltage of a shunt.
Problem is common LCD millivoltmeters scale are 200mv and common shunt are
50mv full scale for 500A
so you have to find suitable millivoltmeter (analog ammeter) or a suitable
shunt to your meter.
this will help you a lot more than my words, i think:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/HBASE/magnetic/ammet.html
look at Ebay inexpensive analog vintage ammeter are often available.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 6:15 PM
Subject: Ammeter for newbie
I have a Curtis expanded voltmeter in my Comuta Van which has worked well
so
far. Now I'd like to expand my knowledge and incorporate an ammeter.
I don't want to go to the expense of putting an E-meter or anything fancy
in
this old postal van. That'd be like hanging a chandelier in a haunted
house.
I just want a plain ammeter I can mount on the dash and if someone could
explain the proper way to connect it I'd be very grateful.
I have a large shunt at home. I'll post the specs as soon as I can get a
look at it. As I understand it, the ammeter needs to be connected to the
shunt (small gauge holes) and the battery flows through it connected to
the
larger lugs.
Thanks for the assist,
Rich A.
Maryland
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey John,
Thanks for that comparison! It's really fun to see how an electric car can
stack up to these performance cars when it's built with quick acceleration
and moderate top speed in mind. That's one of the things that I think is
most satisfying about converting a car to electric--keeping in mind the
tradeoffs, you get to determine what the performance of the car will be. In
my case, long distance driving wasn't a requirement, though it would be
nice, and there's no practical reason for the car to be able to hit 120+
mph. That makes it all the more fun getting to 100 or so mph on the track!
Thanks again for putting it in perspective!
Matt Graham
300V "Joule Injected" Nissan
http://www.jouleinjected.com
Hobe Sound, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: John Wayland [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 12:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Electric Nissan 240SX vs Modern Gas Performance Cars
Hello to All,
A good 'ol comparo is just the thing to put an exclamation mark on Matt's
recent achievement of blasting through the 1/4 mile in just 13.3 seconds, so
I thought I'd educate those who may not be into performance cars, on just
how powerful and quick Matt Grahm's 'Joule Injected'
electric 240SX is.
Admissions:
(A) I'll mostly reference relatively new gas cars, since older gas machines
are nowhere near as clean running as an electric car is, though there are
two representatives from the 60's muscle car era. For the most part, it's
today's lower emission type performance machines vs Matt's zero emission
electric car. Also, it's generally known that today's hi pro gas cars are
quicker and faster than their legendary 60s era muscle car brethren, though
old farts stuck in the past don't often realize this :-) In fact, many of
today's hot 4 banger import machines can blow the doors off 'most' of the
60s era muscle cars, and they do it while passing stringent crash standards,
clean air standards, and fuel economy standards, three categories the old
muscle cars would all fail.
(B) Given two vehicles that run the same 1/4 mile ETs, one a gas car and the
other an electric car, the electric is nearly always substantially quicker
off the line and up 60 mph because of the electric motor's huge torque at
zero rpm. Thus, with two cars that both run 13.5 seconds, the race goes
like this...the electric jumps off the line and by 60 mph is perhaps 2-3 car
lengths ahead of the gas car, by the end of the 1/8th mile the gas car is
now picking up speed at a higher rate and is now pulling up on the electric,
and by the end of the 1/4 mile, the gas car has caught the electric as they
both flash through the traps. Both cars run the same ET, but the gas car has
a higher top end speed, while the electric has a quicker 0-60...see how this
works?
OK, on with the fun.....
(1) In recent years, to many folks' astonishment, the once stodgy 'old man's
car' Cadillac has transformed it's model lineup from blimped-out bulbous
huge land yachts into America's premium hi performance sedans.
Today's Caddys are muscular and fast and corner like sports cars. The top
dog model is the CTS-V, a $52,000 400 hp road burner who's
borrowed-from-the-Z06 Corvette V8 jams it from 0-60 in 5 seconds flat and
runs a 13.4 second 1/4 mile (2005 model). Road & Track magazine described it
as having 'explosive straight-line performance'. Guess what? Matt's electric
car beats it in the 1/4 mile! I estimate Matt's car runs 0-60 in 4.5
seconds, too, so it toasts the Caddy here as well.
If the Caddy has 'explosive performance, I wonder how they'd describe Matt's
EV?
(2) OK you say, what about a real sports car? How about Porsche's newest,
the $70,000 Cayman S? This Boxter derivative with its midship-mounted 291 hp
flat six rips 0-60 in 5.1 seconds and does the
1/4 mile in 13.4 seconds (2006 model)....Matt's electric beats it in both
0-60 and the 1/4 mile run!
(3) How bout the new $35,000 2006 Charger R/T with its highly touted 350 hp
Hemi V8? It too, would get roasted by Matt's electric Nissan, since the
Charger's 0-60 of 5.9 seconds and its 14.1 second 1/4 mile ET are no match
for Matt's electric car.
(4) Just for fun, the 68 Charger R/T with a mighty 440 V8 rated at 375 hp
(old hp rating) ran 0-60 in 6.5 seconds and managed a 14.9 second 1/4 mile
ET. Lowell Simon's electric Porsche would beat this car by a half second
through the 1/4 mile! Matt's car would be 1.6 seconds quicker...an eternity
in 1/4 mile terms!
(5) Exotic? Try this....the $83,000 2003 Masserati Spyder GT has a 390 hp V8
and runs 0-60 in 5.0 seconds and has a 13.5 second ET.
What fun it would be, to find a well-healed dude in his Masserati, tell him
your Japanese car has been converted to run on batteries, then leave him in
the dust! Oh yeah, almost forgot to say it....Matt's car beats this one,
too.
(6) The $26,000 300 hp 2006 Mustang GT V8 runs 0-60 in an impressive 4.9
seconds and manages the 1/4 mile in 13.5 seconds, but it would get beat by
Matt's EV.
(7) In light of the above, the 68 390cid 335 hp V8 powered Mustang GT ran
0-60 in 7.8 seconds and did a 15.2 second 1/4 mile ET.
(8) The $32,000 2003 Subaru STi with its brawny 300 hp turboed flat four
does 0-60 in just 4.9 seconds and runs a 13.3 second ET. OK, this car is a
match for Matt's EV, but the EV would still get it in the 0-60 run.
(9) The $50,000 2004 Audi V8 version of its S4 hi pro sedan, has 340 hp.
It runs 0-60 in 5.4 seconds and the 1/4 mile at 14.0 seconds. Matt's
electric 240SX would blow its doors off.
(10) I saved this for last. The $36,000 Nissan 350Z sports car with its
powerful 287 hp V6 runs 0-60 in 5.7 seconds and does the 1/4 mile in
14.3 seconds. Matt's electrified Nissan beats the new gas powered Nissan by
a full second in the 1/4 mile!
I hope you all had fun reading this, and I hope those of you who may not
always follow the EV drag racing stuff will now have a better appreciation
for what guys like Matt are doing to keep EVs in the spot light. I bet there
are a whole bunch of dazed gasser folks who are still stunned by what they
saw an electric car do at the Moroso Race Track the other night!
See Ya...John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is easy for me to compare like with like as I operate two Electric
Vehicles.
One vehicle runs from 36 AGM 6 volt cells which are providing 50 miles per
day at 40 - 55 MPH.
The other EV runs on STM5-100 Nicads and again give me 50 miles per day and
40- 55 MPH.
HOWEVER - here comes the crunch - both sets of batteries have the same life
expectancy and yet to replace the AGM's will cost me around $1000 and the
Nicads will cost me 10 times that amount.
So it is a simple conclusion that the STM Nicads ARE very much more
expensive even though their energy density is higher it is not an economic
way to proceed.
It means that the EV with Nicads is not economical once the batteries are no
good as the cost price of the vehicle is only $8000.
It is a simple equation
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
Let me say you have a good price !
very expensive ? it's only one part of equation, expensive compared to
what
? lithium ? lead acid ? apples ? (sorry)
no ! compared to a service !
For $11000 and good care your batteries will last way more than 1500
cycles
which turn to be minimum 120 000km (80 000 miles) still giving near 80% of
initial capacity.
They Will give you every day 80km range, winter and summer (55 miles)
without worring about deep discharge (opposite in fact)
This said, write real numbers for competitors and then you will find which
is expensive and which is a good battery choice, though at a high initial
price, for every day use "forget me" commute.
I'm sorry to say there is no simple choice for such OEM car as you MUST
use
exactly same batteries or you will have to switch all EV components which
are controlled by the Electronic Control Unit (charger, DC-DC,
controller...and even maybe the sepex motor/gearbox/diff. if you can't
find
suitable sepex controller...)
So imho your choice are:
-puting $10 000 to assemble a completely new EV system "maybe better" car
(licensing it again etc.)
-puting $11 000 in batteries and just drive it
-finding another one second hand with good batteries (let me say near
impossible nowdays)
-...junkyard it :^(
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:24 AM
Subject: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
Philippe said:-
> imho, STM5-100 will stay here for few years more...
>
> from one point of view it's a very good thing because this batteries
> are
> the
> best EV batterie actually at their price (remember always stating imho,
> not
> starting a debat here)
>
What price have you been quoted Philippe. I asked SAFT for a price and
they
said £250 per 6v battery. ($450). To re-equip my Citroen this would cost
around £6000 ($11000).
I think they are very expensive.
Amities
John
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