EV Digest 5290
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Using two controllers to run an AC motor.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: toe, was: camber
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: '74 MG electric on eBay
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Public charging in states other than California
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Prius tires, was: Re: toe, was: camber
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Electric Nissan 240SX vs Modern Gas Performance Cars
by "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Using two controllers to run an AC motor.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: '74 MG electric on eBay
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Bonn bad bot charger
by kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Public charging in states other than California
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Could two chopper/Curtis/Zilla/Altrax/etc.....motor controllers mimic AC to
run a AC brushless motor?
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Again,
You cannot make this general statement!
It depends on whether you have front wheel drive!
In the case of front wheels being driven (the most common
state - coasting and braking changes this!) there is a
severe amount of torque being applied to each wheel from
the hub (drive axle) which makes the wheel want to move
forward. Since the wheel is attached, it will exercise
this force on the attachment and remove all play in its
forward moving force.
THat means that the wheel (since it pivots) will move
more to a toe-in position in FWD vehicles.
The opposite happens in a RWD vehicle, because the drag
will push the front wheel back.
In essence, a front wheel driven car should have a slight
toe-out to get a zero toe at speed. But there are other
reasosn that most cars have a slight toe-in.
Check your car's specs and see if a zero toe is within
its manufacturer's specs, then set it as close to zero
as you dare for minimum friction.
Hope this clarifies,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:14 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: toe, was: camber
-----Original Message-----
From: Dana Havranek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 01:31:56 +0000
Subject: Re: toe, was: camber
<<If it's set neutral, the wheels *will* tend towards toe-out at speed.
Excellent point.
If you set the toe to 0 you will have toe out in motion.
I set the toe to 1/16th in and hope it will be 0 under way.
Ben
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I just want to add one more comment to this thread before it grows
any older.
> When I learned how
> to do alignments in auto school, toe-in was called the tire wearing
angle. One
> of the main reasons
> for getting it right was to prevent premature wear. If the toe is too
far in,
or
> out, your tires
> will scuff the pavement causing rolling resistance and tire wear. Toe
adjustment
> (in or out)
> compensates for the play in your front end parts. In rear wheel drive
cars the
> front tires tend to
> push back and you might add some toe in to balance it out. The net
result is
the
> tires point
> straight down the road and don't wear excessively. Generally front
wheel drive
> cars will have the
> opposite problem. Since the front tires are pulling the car, they
will try to
go
> to a toe in
> condition, so you may have to adjust towards toe out.
>
> An easy way to see this is to grab one front tire and try to rock it
back and
> forth as if you were
> trying to turn the wheels (the same direction the steering wheel
does). You
will
> probably be able
> to move the tire a little without moving the other side due to the
play in
your
> front end. It's
> almost impossible to eliminate all the slop.
>
> One of the simplest ways to tell if your tires have a toe problem is
to feel
the
> top of the tire.
> Run you hand back and forth across the tread on top of the tire at a
right
angle
> to the direction
> of rotation. If you have too much toe out or in all the raised
portions will
> tend to wear on one
> side. You can easily feel a sharp edge moving your hand in one
direction but
it
> will feel smooth
> in the other.
>
> Caster of course will affect the way the cars feels going down the
road. Lot's
> of caster will help
> the car move in a straight line. Little or no caster will make the
car feel
> squirrely. But caster
> and camber don't have a drastic affect (if any) on tire wear or
rolling
> resistance. Generally
> camber adjustment is so limited you have to really work at it to get
in
trouble.
>
> A little longer than I'd planned, but maybe it will help.
>
> Dave Cover
>
> --- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Here is how I corrected the excessive toe-in of my Prius
> > (it was probably even out of manufacturer spec, but certainly
> > way too much to be "LRR" and I certainly noticed a jump up
> > in mileage after this correction)
> >
> > - My garage floor is almost level, a car needs a push to start
> > rolling out onto the street, so I used this as my "basis".
> >
> > - I looked up the Tread Width for front and rear wheels and
> > found out that the rear has a slightly wider Tread than front.
> >
> > - I set the steering wheel straight and rolled the car back and
> > forth to settle tolerances.
> >
> > - Then I checked when glancing along the outside wall of each
> > front wheel if I could see a slight of the rear wheel, when
> > the front and back side of the front tire were aligned.
> > (looking along it at hub height)
> >
> > (If your rear Tread Width is smaller than front, it may help to
> > draw a chalk line outside the rear wheel at 1/2 the difference
> > as a target to aim for. In the above case, you may also draw a
> > line from front to the rear tires, hitting them at the front
> > Tread Width distance.)
> >
> > At this point I noticed that the "line" of the front wheel ran
> > way past the rear wheel due to too much toe-in.
> > This was easily corrected on each front wheel and when I could
> > see a thin line of the rear wheel, about 1/2 the difference
> > between front and rear Thread Width, I noticed that I could
> > move the car more easily when pushing it by hand and the MPG
> > went up several miles per gallon.
> > Since zero toe-in is actually within manufacturer spec, I did not
> > worry about safety and handling and in fact it is still handling
> > very comfortably, I cannot pry the Prius out of my wife's
> > fingers, so it is good I like the electric truck....
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Systems Architect
> > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of ProEV
> > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 5:26 AM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: camber
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike wrote
> >
> > > Raise your hand if you have a fast street driven EV? That's what I
> > > thought.
> >
> > I'm suspect that came across a little ruder than you intended. I
also think
> > you might find that some of the people who have done the most
thinking on
> > this question are in seriously power limited EV's such as Solar
Raycers and
> > Eletrathon competitors.
> >
> > Dave wrote
> >
> > <Seems to me I saw something about improving less rolling
resistance by
> > <front end alignment that zeroes camber.
> >
> >
> > It's been my experience that to minimize rolling resistance, most
cars can
> > benefit from a basic alignment. Do the front wheels point the same
way as
> > the rear wheels and do they both point the same way as the body?
> >
> > Then setting the toe can help.
> >
> > Finally camber might help but at the cost of tire grip while
> > cornering.
> >
> > At ProEV, we always try to do a full alignment before we race a new
car. The
> >
> > alignment almost always uncovers a way to improve the car.
> >
> > There are a million techniques to get the same information. Here is
a rough
> > and ready way that will give most people useful information. What
seems the
> > best way to me might not to others, so modify to suit.
> >
> > Checking the alignment on your street EV can be done fairly cheaply
if you
> > have a level, a ruler, some chalk, fishing line and do not mind
crawling
> > around. Plumb bob, right angle and jack stands are optional. We
> > use a 12 foot builder's level in the race shop but a smaller level
and a
> > long
> > straight edge work just as well.
> >
> > Step 1: Find a level area.
> >
> > Take your level and find a flat level area bigger than the car,
> > preferable with a hard floor. The area should be level fore and aft
and
> > side to side. The more accurate you are, the more exact your
results. NASCAR
> > teams pour special level floors but you can get workable
> > results with out being fanatical.
> >
> > Step 2: Put your car in the center of your level area.
> >
> > Center the steering wheel. Inflate the tires evenly. For better
accuracy,
> > have someone sit in the driver's seat.
> >
> > Step 3: Locate and mark the center line of the car.
> >
> > There a number of things that can help you decide where the center
line
> > should be. They can disagree and then you just have to choose. We
start at
> > suspension pivot points. Use a plumb bob (or a string and a small
weight)
> > and chalk to mark the position of the suspension pivot point on the
floor.
> > Do
> > the same on the other side of the car. Draw a line between the two
points.
> > measure the distance and mark the middle. Do the same thing with
two pick up
> > points in the rear. Draw a line that connects the two middle marks
and
> > extends out the front and rear of the car for at least a foot.
> >
> > It would be nice if this center line comes out at the middle of the
body in
> > the front and rear. If it does not, then you have to decide if you
want your
> > body square to the air flow or your suspension symmetrical. For a
low drag
> > street EV, keeping your aero body square to the air flow is
probably worth
> > more. In that case, chose the center of the front of the body and
the
> > center of the rear of the body. Draw a line between the two (and
extend them
> > a foot behind and in front of the car).
> >
> > Step 4: Mark a box around the car.
> >
> > Using the center line, draw a line perpendicular to the center line
and 1
> > foot in front of the car. It needs to extend a couple of inches
beyond the
> > width of the car on either side. Do the same at the rear. Measure
the same
> > distance out from the center line in the front and the rear and
draw a line.
> > It should be close to the car. If all your corners are 90 degrees
then you
> > probably measured right.
> >
> > Step 5: Measure the wheel locations at wheel center height.
> >
> > Fishing line and 2 jack stands make this easier. Check how high the
center
> > of the wheel is. Set the jackstands at either end of one of the
chalked
> > sidelines. Tie the fishing line to the jack stands at the wheel
center line
> > height and pull it tight. It should mimic the chalk line but up in
the air.
> > Measure the
> > distance between the fishing line and a point on the wheel face at
the front
> > of the rim and the rear of the rim. Make sure the point you are
measuring is
> > not odd-bent rim, odd bulge on tire, etc. Make sure your ruler is
square to
> > the fishing line. Write down the measurements. Repeat for all
wheels.
> >
> > Step 6: Interpret the data.
> >
> > The difference between the front and rear measurements on one wheel
is toe.
> > If the distance from the front of the rim to the fishing line is
greater
> > than the distance from fishing line to the rear of the rim, you
have toe in.
> > Otherway around, toe out. Equal is zero toe.
> >
> > Add the two measurements for a rear wheel and compare it to the sum
of the
> > measurement for the front wheel on the same side. If the car has
the same
> > size wheels and track, the totals should be the same. If not, your
front and
> > rear wheel do not line up. More drag especially in the wet or snow.
> >
> > If you add the two measurements for the rear wheel and compare it
to the sum
> > of the measurement for the other rear wheel. If they do not match,
the
> > wheels are offset to the body. Do the same for the front.
> >
> > For the least rolling resistance, all 8 measurements should be
same. That
> > would give you zero toe front and rear with the front and rear
wheels lined
> > up square to the body. This will change the handling of the car. Do
not do
> > this unless you know what you are doing and reconize that you might
be
> > risking life and limb
> > in a possibly ill handling car.
> >
> > Test the car in a safe area. Try it at different speeds and braking,
> > turning, accelerating and in combinations. If the steering wanders,
try more
> > caster. If the turn-in is slow, increase the rake or play with the
Ackerman
> > steering.
> >
> > Cliff
> > www.ProEV.com
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Note that you can tow both FWD and RWD with a tow dolly.
If the car has a manual transmission that does not need
a running driveshaft input for lubrication, you can even
flat-tow it, providing you have the proper tow hookup.
If the gearbox needs a spinning input shaft and the input
can spin freely (noting attached or an electric motor
that can rotate freely) then put it in highest gear,
this will give moderate speed on the input shaft and
electric motor if attached.
To tow my RWD BMW without loading the transmission, I
simply put it backwards on the tow dolly and locked
the front wheels in straight (steering column lock) and
pumped the tires to recommended max pressure.
Continue dreaming ;-)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jay Snable
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 9:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: '74 MG electric on eBay
Not to add fuel to the fire, but yes the Midget is rear wheel drive.
Parts can still be obtained - check Moss Motors for a start (not the
cheapest though). Now get back to work! :-)
Jay (who has a TR6 electric candidate)
On Mar 27, 2006, at 8:24 PM, Jim Coate wrote:
> You guys are totally feeding my day dreams and keeping me
> distracted from real work...
>
> Is the MG front or rear wheel drive?
> (so can it put towed on a dolly with the rear wheels still on the
> road?)
>
> Are parts still available, without an intense scavenger hunt?
>
> Hmmmm.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd recommend you get a waterproof ID holder and put your name/cell
phone # and the name/# of the person from whom you obtained permission
on both the windshield and power cord. Thus uninformed enforcers have
something to go on.
Danny
bruce parmenter wrote:
Always get a written permission, even if you have to write the
letter, and have them sign it. Keep a photo copy at home, and the
original in the EV so you can whip it out when challenged.
I was able to find the right person to ask at my College. They
gave me a signed letter giving me permission to plug in at the
College. I keep the original in the EV, and gave a copy to the
campus police. Each year I check with the campus police to make
sure they still have the copy on file. Sometimes it gets buried
in their binder. This also makes the Sargent remind his Officers
I have permission.
I recommend EV'rs always get permission first, rather than being
towed away.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mar 27, 2006, at 6:39 PM, Cor van de Water wrote:
With the excessive toe-in, my front tires were through more
than half the thread on the outside edge of the tires in 12k miles.
(That's how I bought the car.)
Setting them to zero toe stopped this excessive wear, pumping
them to 45 PSI put more of the load on the "middle" section of
the thread.
When I found that my rear tires has slightly more wear on
the inside edges, I swapped them with the front tires
(I think there never was a tire rotation on this car)
so they are almost even worn now at 31k and will need
replacement this year as most original Prius Potenzas of
this age.
I never did anything to the alignment to my wife's 2002 Prius (once in
a while I get to drive it :-) The tire pressure was set to 45/40 psi
from day one. They lasted 40,000 miles with right at 3/32 inch of tread
when removed. I can't complain about tire life, but they sucked for
traction (especially wet traction.)
I replaced them with Pirelli P3000 tires. These are standard load (1019
lb.) tires that are rated for a max of 35 psi (so I run 35/33 psi.)
They are an 80,000 mile tire. They are quieter, have better dry
traction and much better wet traction. They *kill* fuel mileage! The
mileage dropped about 4 mpg (9%.) My wife loves the ride, but notices
the extra fuel consumption.
The Pirelli P3000 is a nice tire, but I wouldn't recommend them for an
EV.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Don,
I see a few people have chimed in during my work-induced absence from the
list. Thanks, everyone.
As far as the over-revving of the motors, I'd cautiously say, no, I don't
think so. But I suppose time will tell. At 100 mph they're seeing about 5300
RPM, but they spend the vast majority of their lives below 2500 RPM as I
cruise around town. Like the fuse analogy, I'm sure they can occasionally
and/or briefly be exposed to high currents (and in this case, high RPMs),
but exactly how much time they can spend at these extremes is not yet clear.
In general, I'd say less time is better for the motors, but that is
inversely proportional to my entertainment!
These are stock Warp 9 motors, except that they've been advanced for the
sake of minimizing arcing at high voltage and RPM. I've got to get under the
car and try to get some decent pics of the comms to my buddy Jim Husted (Hi
right back, Jim) so we can all see what they look like. The motors have
performed well under the conditions they've been subjected to, but I've been
fortunate to have tools like motor voltage and rev-limiting from the Zilla
to keep them from being abused.
As Shawn indicated, I have another ring and pinion set that I
over-enthusiastically bought earlier in the conversion process. So now I've
got 4.64:1 gears that would require 6000 RPM from the motors to reach the
same 100 mph the car just hit. Since I've historically been traction
limited, even at 1400 amps, the liklihood of these gears making it into the
car any time soon is relatively low!
Matt Graham
300V "Joule Injected" Nissan
http://www.jouleinjected.com
Hobe Sound, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Cameron [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 4:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Electric Nissan 240SX vs Modern Gas Performance Cars
Thanks for the link Richard.
Here are the specs:
No tranny
4.08 to 1 ratio rear end
max 5000RPM
255/50-16 BFG g-Force T/A tires (26.1" diameter)
Max speed at 5000RPM, with these tires is 92mph
So are the 9" motors being over-revved?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Richard Rau
Sent: March 26, 2006 11:03 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Electric Nissan 240SX vs Modern Gas Performance Cars
Don,
Your questions are answered in the 'Timeslip Comments' within Matt's Drag
http://www.dragtimes.com/Nissan-240SX-Timeslip-7382.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 9:58 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Electric Nissan 240SX vs Modern Gas Performance Cars
Hi John, thanks for the comparison - good to read.
I was looking at Matt's site ( www.jouleinjected.com ) but I could not find
any details on the transaxle setup. Is it rear or front or 4WD? Does it
have a tranny or direct drive? Do you know the final diff ratio?
Thanks
Don
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John;
What kind and where are you getting 36 AGM's for $1000?
-----Original Message-----
From: John Luck Home [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 2:25 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
It is easy for me to compare like with like as I operate two Electric
Vehicles.
One vehicle runs from 36 AGM 6 volt cells which are providing 50 miles per
day at 40 - 55 MPH.
The other EV runs on STM5-100 Nicads and again give me 50 miles per day and
40- 55 MPH.
HOWEVER - here comes the crunch - both sets of batteries have the same life
expectancy and yet to replace the AGM's will cost me around $1000 and the
Nicads will cost me 10 times that amount.
So it is a simple conclusion that the STM Nicads ARE very much more
expensive even though their energy density is higher it is not an economic
way to proceed.
It means that the EV with Nicads is not economical once the batteries are no
good as the cost price of the vehicle is only $8000.
It is a simple equation
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
> Let me say you have a good price !
> very expensive ? it's only one part of equation, expensive compared to
> what
> ? lithium ? lead acid ? apples ? (sorry)
> no ! compared to a service !
>
> For $11000 and good care your batteries will last way more than 1500
> cycles
> which turn to be minimum 120 000km (80 000 miles) still giving near 80% of
> initial capacity.
> They Will give you every day 80km range, winter and summer (55 miles)
> without worring about deep discharge (opposite in fact)
>
> This said, write real numbers for competitors and then you will find which
> is expensive and which is a good battery choice, though at a high initial
> price, for every day use "forget me" commute.
>
> I'm sorry to say there is no simple choice for such OEM car as you MUST
> use
> exactly same batteries or you will have to switch all EV components which
> are controlled by the Electronic Control Unit (charger, DC-DC,
> controller...and even maybe the sepex motor/gearbox/diff. if you can't
> find
> suitable sepex controller...)
>
> So imho your choice are:
> -puting $10 000 to assemble a completely new EV system "maybe better" car
> (licensing it again etc.)
> -puting $11 000 in batteries and just drive it
> -finding another one second hand with good batteries (let me say near
> impossible nowdays)
> -...junkyard it :^(
>
> cordialement,
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:24 AM
> Subject: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
>
>
>> Philippe said:-
>>
>> > imho, STM5-100 will stay here for few years more...
>> >
>> > from one point of view it's a very good thing because this batteries
>> > are
>> > the
>> > best EV batterie actually at their price (remember always stating imho,
>> > not
>> > starting a debat here)
>> >
>>
>> What price have you been quoted Philippe. I asked SAFT for a price and
> they
>> said £250 per 6v battery. ($450). To re-equip my Citroen this would cost
>> around £6000 ($11000).
>>
>> I think they are very expensive.
>>
>> Amities
>>
>> John
>>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.2/294 - Release Date: 27/03/2006
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow, you found some very light weight AGMs that put out 100 ahrs and will
last 1500 cycles. I'm impressed :-)
Something about your equation below does not add up. My guess is that the
two EVs you mention are totally different. From my experience a 6 volt AGM
that could push a normal EV and still deliver 100 ahrs would weigh at least
60 pounds and it certainly would not last 1500 cycles at that rate. A 6
volt STM5-100 module weighs 28 pounds.
damon
From: "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 21:24:47 +0100
It is easy for me to compare like with like as I operate two Electric
Vehicles.
One vehicle runs from 36 AGM 6 volt cells which are providing 50 miles per
day at 40 - 55 MPH.
The other EV runs on STM5-100 Nicads and again give me 50 miles per day and
40- 55 MPH.
HOWEVER - here comes the crunch - both sets of batteries have the same life
expectancy and yet to replace the AGM's will cost me around $1000 and the
Nicads will cost me 10 times that amount.
So it is a simple conclusion that the STM Nicads ARE very much more
expensive even though their energy density is higher it is not an economic
way to proceed.
It means that the EV with Nicads is not economical once the batteries are
no good as the cost price of the vehicle is only $8000.
It is a simple equation
John
----- Original Message ----- From: "Philippe Borges"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
Let me say you have a good price !
very expensive ? it's only one part of equation, expensive compared to
what
? lithium ? lead acid ? apples ? (sorry)
no ! compared to a service !
For $11000 and good care your batteries will last way more than 1500
cycles
which turn to be minimum 120 000km (80 000 miles) still giving near 80% of
initial capacity.
They Will give you every day 80km range, winter and summer (55 miles)
without worring about deep discharge (opposite in fact)
This said, write real numbers for competitors and then you will find which
is expensive and which is a good battery choice, though at a high initial
price, for every day use "forget me" commute.
I'm sorry to say there is no simple choice for such OEM car as you MUST
use
exactly same batteries or you will have to switch all EV components which
are controlled by the Electronic Control Unit (charger, DC-DC,
controller...and even maybe the sepex motor/gearbox/diff. if you can't
find
suitable sepex controller...)
So imho your choice are:
-puting $10 000 to assemble a completely new EV system "maybe better" car
(licensing it again etc.)
-puting $11 000 in batteries and just drive it
-finding another one second hand with good batteries (let me say near
impossible nowdays)
-...junkyard it :^(
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Luck Home"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:24 AM
Subject: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
Philippe said:-
> imho, STM5-100 will stay here for few years more...
>
> from one point of view it's a very good thing because this batteries >
are
> the
> best EV batterie actually at their price (remember always stating
imho,
> not
> starting a debat here)
>
What price have you been quoted Philippe. I asked SAFT for a price and
they
said £250 per 6v battery. ($450). To re-equip my Citroen this would cost
around £6000 ($11000).
I think they are very expensive.
Amities
John
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--- Begin Message ---
John Luck Home [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> HOWEVER - here comes the crunch - both sets of batteries have
> the same life expectancy and yet to replace the AGM's will
> cost me around $1000 and the Nicads will cost me 10 times that
> amount.
What AGMs are you using that give a 50mi range at 55MPH that will also
deliver 1000+ cycles to 80%DOD and yet cost only $1000 to replace?
If I understand you correctly, you are using 36 6V AGMs, which means
you've got 6V AGMs that cost about $28 each if you can replace the pack
for $1000. Now, if you meant you had a 36V pack, this is 6 6V AGMs at
about $167 each, which is still very cheap. A 36V EV that can achieve
55MPH is unusual, unless this is a scooter.
It may be that if the vehicle is small enough the situation changes to
favour the AGMs, but the math has been presented several times on the
list in the past that demonstrates that the flooded NiCds offer a lower
cost per mile than AGMs due to their *much* longer cycle life when
cycled to similar DOD as the AGMs. The main barrier to their widespread
adoption is the much higher initial cost.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Could two chopper/Curtis/Zilla/Altrax/etc.....motor controllers mimic
> AC to run a AC brushless motor?
No, there aren't enough parts there.
A normal chopper-type PWM DC motor controller (Curtis, Zilla, Alltrax)
basically has one high-power transistor and one high-power diode. A
normal AC motor controller has SIX high-power transistors and diodes.
So, a DC PWM controller gets you about 1/6th the way there. :-)
Now if you get picky, each of the AC controller's transistors and diodes
can be smaller. Overall, the AC controller has about twice the silicon
for a given power rating.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim
There are lots of places that sell parts for old MGs.
Moss Motors and victoria british are the two I have
used. You could basically build a car from scratch
from parts from these two catalogues.
and yes, the midget is rear wheel drive. I have towed
by 68 midget now and then using a two wheel dolly. I
usually disconnected the driveshaft where it enters
the rear diff to avoid spinning the transmission
output shaft.
~fortunat
--- Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You guys are totally feeding my day dreams and
> keeping me distracted
> from real work...
>
> Is the MG front or rear wheel drive?
> (so can it put towed on a dolly with the rear wheels
> still on the road?)
>
> Are parts still available, without an intense
> scavenger hunt?
>
> Hmmmm.
>
>
> Stefan T. Peters wrote:
> > Well yeah, that's 2500lbs with a 50mile range.
> Give some of that up by
> > switching to lighter AGMs, put a 8" or 9" in
> there, and you should have
> > one fun little rocket. Don't worry too much about
> adverse weather, just
> > use that right foot and OUTRUN the raindrops and
> snowflakes ;)
>
>
> --
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak's
> 1997 Solectria Force
> 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Well I did say their energy density was different. The AGMs are around 30
watts/Kg and the Nicads I think are 55/Kg.
The AGM's are 188 A/H 6 volt YUASA.
The vehicles are different although I get the same range and speed from
them.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:17 PM
Subject: Re: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
Wow, you found some very light weight AGMs that put out 100 ahrs and will
last 1500 cycles. I'm impressed :-)
Something about your equation below does not add up. My guess is that the
two EVs you mention are totally different. From my experience a 6 volt
AGM that could push a normal EV and still deliver 100 ahrs would weigh at
least 60 pounds and it certainly would not last 1500 cycles at that rate.
A 6 volt STM5-100 module weighs 28 pounds.
damon
From: "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 21:24:47 +0100
It is easy for me to compare like with like as I operate two Electric
Vehicles.
One vehicle runs from 36 AGM 6 volt cells which are providing 50 miles per
day at 40 - 55 MPH.
The other EV runs on STM5-100 Nicads and again give me 50 miles per day
and 40- 55 MPH.
HOWEVER - here comes the crunch - both sets of batteries have the same
life expectancy and yet to replace the AGM's will cost me around $1000
and the Nicads will cost me 10 times that amount.
So it is a simple conclusion that the STM Nicads ARE very much more
expensive even though their energy density is higher it is not an
economic way to proceed.
It means that the EV with Nicads is not economical once the batteries are
no good as the cost price of the vehicle is only $8000.
It is a simple equation
John
----- Original Message ----- From: "Philippe Borges"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
Let me say you have a good price !
very expensive ? it's only one part of equation, expensive compared to
what
? lithium ? lead acid ? apples ? (sorry)
no ! compared to a service !
For $11000 and good care your batteries will last way more than 1500
cycles
which turn to be minimum 120 000km (80 000 miles) still giving near 80%
of
initial capacity.
They Will give you every day 80km range, winter and summer (55 miles)
without worring about deep discharge (opposite in fact)
This said, write real numbers for competitors and then you will find
which
is expensive and which is a good battery choice, though at a high initial
price, for every day use "forget me" commute.
I'm sorry to say there is no simple choice for such OEM car as you MUST
use
exactly same batteries or you will have to switch all EV components which
are controlled by the Electronic Control Unit (charger, DC-DC,
controller...and even maybe the sepex motor/gearbox/diff. if you can't
find
suitable sepex controller...)
So imho your choice are:
-puting $10 000 to assemble a completely new EV system "maybe better" car
(licensing it again etc.)
-puting $11 000 in batteries and just drive it
-finding another one second hand with good batteries (let me say near
impossible nowdays)
-...junkyard it :^(
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Luck Home"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:24 AM
Subject: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
Philippe said:-
> imho, STM5-100 will stay here for few years more...
>
> from one point of view it's a very good thing because this batteries
> >
are
> the
> best EV batterie actually at their price (remember always stating
imho,
> not
> starting a debat here)
>
What price have you been quoted Philippe. I asked SAFT for a price and
they
said £250 per 6v battery. ($450). To re-equip my Citroen this would cost
around £6000 ($11000).
I think they are very expensive.
Amities
John
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--- Begin Message ---
There is no secret the YUASA batteries are pictured (1 of them) on my site
www.bedfordev.flyer.co.uk.
There are 36 x 6volt 188A/H AGM , 216volt pack, and the makers claim a life
of 10yrs. SAFT claim 70,000Km fore their Nicads but its a bit of a lottery
as there were problems prior to 1999 with these monoblocs going shortcircuit
and melting and I cannot find anyone who has driven more than about 30,000
miles on one set of batteries. Indeed there are many of these vehicles in UK
that are non-runners being stripped for parts because of battery failure and
due to the cost of buying new ones make them uneconomic.
Many EV's in the UK use these batteries as they are so economical to
purchase from UPS companies doing their 18month clearout. I know of 3
Bedford CF's , 2 Sherpa trucks, a Fiat 126 and a VW using these AGM's all
with good reports of range. Some of these have been in use in EV over 5 yrs.
So given that I have both STM5-100 in an EV and 6volt AGM's I know which EV
I will pay out to replace the batteries in when the time comes - the AGM's
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:26 PM
Subject: RE: STM5-100 was : advise not using BB600 for long string
John Luck Home [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
HOWEVER - here comes the crunch - both sets of batteries have
the same life expectancy and yet to replace the AGM's will
cost me around $1000 and the Nicads will cost me 10 times that
amount.
What AGMs are you using that give a 50mi range at 55MPH that will also
deliver 1000+ cycles to 80%DOD and yet cost only $1000 to replace?
If I understand you correctly, you are using 36 6V AGMs, which means
you've got 6V AGMs that cost about $28 each if you can replace the pack
for $1000. Now, if you meant you had a 36V pack, this is 6 6V AGMs at
about $167 each, which is still very cheap. A 36V EV that can achieve
55MPH is unusual, unless this is a scooter.
It may be that if the vehicle is small enough the situation changes to
favour the AGMs, but the math has been presented several times on the
list in the past that demonstrates that the flooded NiCds offer a lower
cost per mile than AGMs due to their *much* longer cycle life when
cycled to similar DOD as the AGMs. The main barrier to their widespread
adoption is the much higher initial cost.
Cheers,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
I've been mulling over the Bonn bad boy circuit Lee Hart shared with us:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/tech/bonn_charger.html
What I'm unclear on is why a transformer is rewound into a series inductor for
this instead of just being used as a transformer to buck the
voltage down or boost it up for a pack voltage which is below or above 144.
At first I thought the Bonn inductor was an autotransformer
which could be wired to buck the voltage down to an appropriate level by
choosing the right taps, but looking at the diagram I see that it's not -
it's just a coil of wire around an iron core with variable taps to alter the
number of turns. I'd be leery of the huge voltage differential between
the rectified 120 volt AC, with 168 VDC peaks, and the pack voltage of a 96
volt pack. Can the inductor control the current created by that?
Or am I (once again) missing something?
As usual, I apologize for the possible (likely) stupidity of this question, but
I'm trying to understand the principles behind as much of this stuff as
I can. As it happens I've built a modified bad boy which follows this diagram
almost exactly, except that I have a transformer where the
inductor is, wired to boost the voltage because I have a 156 volt pack.
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One thing I forgot to tell you after you get permission, is get a sign made
up by a sign shop and install it above receptacle. I got permission to
install this sign to the structure. You could make it a magnet backing, so
you could move it any place you want.
ELECTRIC VEHICLE
CHARGING STATION
You now have your own dedicated parking space.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: Public charging in states other than California
> I'd recommend you get a waterproof ID holder and put your name/cell
> phone # and the name/# of the person from whom you obtained permission
> on both the windshield and power cord. Thus uninformed enforcers have
> something to go on.
>
> Danny
>
> bruce parmenter wrote:
>
> >Always get a written permission, even if you have to write the
> >letter, and have them sign it. Keep a photo copy at home, and the
> >original in the EV so you can whip it out when challenged.
> >
> >I was able to find the right person to ask at my College. They
> >gave me a signed letter giving me permission to plug in at the
> >College. I keep the original in the EV, and gave a copy to the
> >campus police. Each year I check with the campus police to make
> >sure they still have the copy on file. Sometimes it gets buried
> >in their binder. This also makes the Sargent remind his Officers
> >I have permission.
> >
> >I recommend EV'rs always get permission first, rather than being
> >towed away.
> >
> >
> >Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
