EV Digest 5299
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Bizarre Amphour Meter Idea
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Millwaukee Site Awesome Helicopter Video...(was Monster Garage)
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Hydrogen: The Emperor Is Naked
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Newbie- Info on Compact Pick-up
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) unsuscribe
by rene blom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Hydrogen: The Emperor Is Naked
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: my (theoretical) setup
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: Hydrogen: The Emperor Is Naked
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Electricity used in gasoline generation
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: Hydrogen: The Emperor Is Naked
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Hydrogen: The Emperor Is Naked
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Electricity used in gasoline generation
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Oozing Joints
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Hydrogen: The Emperor Is Naked
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Electricity used in gasoline generation
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Low Priced conversion options?
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Electricity used in gasoline generation
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) RE: Electricity used in gasoline generation
by "Jay Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Electricity used in gasoline generation
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Electricity used in gasoline generation
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Oozing Joints
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: STM5-100
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Oozing Joints
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Public charging -- DC generator
by DM3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:19 PM 3/30/2006, you wrote:
Lee Hart wrote:
>> If someone was serious about doing [a motor driven amphour meter],
>> I'd suggest getting a Portescap "Escap" motor. These are beautiful
>> little Swiss instrumentation motors, complete with the precision
>> bearings and gold commutators. I have one about 1" long and 0.5"
>> in diameter. It is nominally a 12v motor, but runs on 0.1v at
>> 2ma no load.
Eric Poulsen wrote:
> Hmmm to me "no load" means "slotted disk with phase detecting photo
> interrupters" -- the guts from an old (computer) mouse would work well.
The Escap motor I have are actually gearmotors, with 200:1 reductions
already in place, so "no load" includes running all the gears. Adding
hands or an odometer-type counter doesn't add any real load.
The key point is that you can wind a motor for any voltage you like;
including 50 millivolts. A PM motor has a very good relationship between
voltage and rpm when lightly loaded. Under load, the resistance of the
windings alters the speed.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
I have or at one time had, a motor from a 1/10 scale RC car, very strong
magnets, armature is wound with just a few turns of as large a wire size as
would fit, and ball bearings. If one were to precision balance the
armature, replace the hobby store grade ball bearings with some good ones,
machine the comm to a super smooth finish, and replace the heavy spring
pressure copper loaded brushes with some simple leaf spring type it may
work reasonably well direct driving a slotted disk.
That planetary gear system with the oil on the gears, may make for some
fairly large speed changes with temperature.
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about this one, involves a race car so it's slightly on topic.
http://www.milwaukeetool.com/pitstop/index.html
Darin wrote:
> thanks for the laugh. that was good.
> http://www.milwaukeetool.com/helicopter/index.html
>
> John Wayland wrote:
>> Probably one of the best short commercials I've ever seen! Check out
>> the Milwaukee Power Tools site, look at the right side of the page,
>> and click on the upper of the two videos they have for viewing (the
>> lower video is dull and boring). I watched it four of five times and
>> laughed out loud each time!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
> ...continued support for Hydrogen could be explained as an attempt
> to avoid confrontation with uncomfortable truths (that alternative
> energies like Hydrogen are not a solution today).
>
> How long will it take for them to realize that there are EVs which
> are efficient and cost-competitive and available today?
> Helloooo - somebody listening?
>
> I will continue to make my statement - by simply driving to work
> every day.
I like Steve Clunn's image. Imagine you're in a bus racing across the
countryside, packed with people. It's dark and very foggy, and you can
barely see ahead. But the driver is an expert, and he knows the road,
and is on a tight schedule, so he barrels along at full speed. You're
not worried.
But then you begin to think. Didn't I hear something in the news, just
before we left, about the bridge being out on this road? Since no one
else seems to be worried, you ignore it, too. Maybe it was some other
bridge. Maybe the driver will take a detour.
Time passes. The bus doesn't turn, and doesn't slow down. Maybe, if
you're brave, you get up and tell the driver what you heard on the
radio. But he's confident, even arrogant; he won't listen. "I know what
I'm doing. You're wrong. That bridge couldn't have fallen down, or my
dispatcher would have told me."
You try to forget it, but more you think, the more you are sure that the
news report said the bridge was out. But still, you might be mistaken,
or the news report might have been wrong. What do you do?
Do you make a big fuss? Holler and yell, try to get the other passengers
alarmed, threaten that the bus stop "or else"? More than likely, that
would get you in trouble. You'd be branded as a nut, maybe prosecuted as
a terrorist. If you do nothing, and the bridge *is* out, you might be
killed. Or, the bus may detour due to some route change you didn't know
about, and you'd still get arrested for causing a commotion.
Experience has shown that alarmists in our society are largely ignored,
marginalized, or even persecuted. You can't make people change their
minds. Most people prefer to believe "authorities", even in the face of
evidence to the contrary. They will sit and do nothing, trusting in the
authorities, right to the bitter end when the "crash" is imminent and
only a fool would deny it.
When I first started driving my EVs, I tried to be an EVangelist and
convince others. It was hopeless. I just got ignored, ridiculed, and
branded at a nutcase. I gave up.
So my solution is to say, "Excuse me driver, but I heard the bridge is
out. I'm getting off the bus, right here, right now. The rest of you can
do as you please, but I'm going my own way, thank you." Maybe a few
others will think, "He doesn't seem like a nut; maybe he's onto
something. I think I'll get off, too."
I drive my EVs. But I don't proselytize, or fight for legislation to
force people to change; I seek to convince them by setting an example.
If they see me, every day, going back and forth to work, to school, to
the store; year in and year out; maybe a few will change their minds.
And, I teach kids. Their minds are not as closed as adults. They can
change; they'll be the ones who will "get off the bus" in time.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.steyla.com/safti/
left side, last picture on the bottom. You can see the access doors,
though they are black, you can tell they are different from the bed.
Michaela
> Michaela,
>
> do you have pictures of your battery access doors?
>
> --- Michaela Merz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hey Greg:
>>
>> I have almost exactly the same setup. Rural area and
>> flat, and we too need
>> a pickup for ag use. See
>> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/693.html
>>
>> Our S-10 longbed has 24 6 V floodies and it should
>> be no problem to get 30
>> Miles at 50 mph (our truck uses approx. 110-150 A at
>> 50 mph but it might
>> be still a little bit on the 'high' side).
>>
>> You can contact me off list and I am happy to get
>> into more detail.
>>
>> Michaela
>>
>>
>> > I live in rural area and the roads are flat. The
>> majority of maximum
>> > speed is 55 mph with 4 curves (25-45 mph). It'll
>> be about 25-30 miles
>> > roundtrip. I'm planning to use S-10 or Ranger
>> because I need a pick-up,
>> > not car, for agricultural errands.
>> >
>> > My plan is to buy a conversion kit from
>> Electro-Automotive
>> > (http://www.electroauto.com/), with 9" motor and
>> (24) 6V batteries (most
>> > likely Trojan). Clutch and manual transmission
>> will be used. I am
>> > concerning if the pick-up will have enough power
>> for 25-30 miles at
>> > majority of highway speed. Is that sufficient?
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > -gs
>> >
>> > --
>> > Greg Swager
>> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hydrogen reminds me of Microsoft. Has some uses, but mostly just
generates jobs and cash flow.
I use to braze parts in a hydrogen atmosphere. Great stuff. But not for
the general public and pricey.
Mike
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Thx Cowtown,
>
> Just replied to Bob that the body of the bug will be
> removed and replaced by an urethane-foam/polyester
> body and perhaps I'll follow the advice giving earlier of
> using the 6.7" advanced DC engine, which should be
> more than enough of powering this vehicle.
>
> Pascal
That sounds like a plan! If you have access to a SepEx controller and the
appropriate (i.e.-shunt-wound) motor, you can get a pretty nice setup: in trade
for lower torque than a series AdvDC (which sounds acceptable when you live in
one of the Low Countries), you get regen and contactor-less reverse (but you'll
have a tranny, so not very important).
Both Curtis and Zapi, and possibly others, make and sell them in Europe:
Curtis has a 36-80V/600A model
[http://www.curtisinst.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=cProducts.DownloadPDF&file=50028REVC4042%2Epdf]
and Zapi makes one for 72-96V/500A
[http://www.zapiweb.com/details.php?lang=eng&prod=18&type=Technology&id=4]
{I have one of these that I hoped *someone else* could make work on my Kewet,
but no-one in the area is interested, and I tend to blow things up due to
electrical and mechanical inexperience, and I'd have to get the motor out to
rewind to straight shunt field.}
Either of these would handle an 84V pack of flooded cells comfortably, but then,
both companies also make AC controllers in that size, too, so stay open to what
might work best for you.
Russell
(cowtown is a nickname for Vacaville, my hometown)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<< Hydrogen reminds me of Microsoft. Has some uses, but mostly just
generates jobs and cash flow.
I use to braze parts in a hydrogen atmosphere. Great stuff. But not for
the general public and pricey.
Mike >>>
Makes you wonder how the general public sees us getting the hydrogen out of the
water - what if someone used a portable hydrolyser that they wanted to plug in
at work to generate the fuel for their commute, would the employer use it to
get positive press or just give as much grief as someone who wants to recharge
their EV?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A couple times a year I ask the list this question, andno-one has yet to reply,
but I am going to be persistant:
Does anyone know (or have a link with the info on) how much electricity is used
to produce gasoline? Say, X kwhs for every Y gallons produced, or per barrel of
crude?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The general public doesn't realise that you need to put any energy in, to
get energy out of water. A few times I have run into this.
Me: What do you thing we'll do when the oil runs out? Where will we get our
energy?
General Public: Hydrogen.
Me: Yes, how will you make the hydrogen?
General Public: From water.
Me: Did you know that you have to put more energy in to making hydrogen than
you get back when you use it?
General Public: Really? Are you sure? (skeptical)
There's my version of the hydrogen myth.
-Mike
On 3/30/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Makes you wonder how the general public sees us getting the hydrogen out
> of the
> water -
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just hope something useful comes from all of the lying. Maybe some
technology will spin off and cure a disease or make an incredibley
dense portable power source.
Mike
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> <<< Hydrogen reminds me of Microsoft. Has some uses, but mostly just
> generates jobs and cash flow.
>
> I use to braze parts in a hydrogen atmosphere. Great stuff. But not
> for
> the general public and pricey.
>
> Mike >>>
>
> Makes you wonder how the general public sees us getting the hydrogen
> out of the
> water - what if someone used a portable hydrolyser that they wanted
> to plug in
> at work to generate the fuel for their commute, would the employer
> use it to
> get positive press or just give as much grief as someone who wants to
> recharge
> their EV?
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All I know is that according to the California Energy Commission,
petroleum refining is the largest industrial user of electricity in
the state.
On Mar 30, 2006, at 1:50 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
A couple times a year I ask the list this question, andno-one has
yet to reply,
but I am going to be persistant:
Does anyone know (or have a link with the info on) how much
electricity is used
to produce gasoline? Say, X kwhs for every Y gallons produced, or
per barrel of
crude?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Here's a picture that shows it best:
>
> www.users.qwest.net/~denniswilliamsha/OozingGrease.jpg
That shouldn't be happening. The grease in the CV joints is just that,
grease. For it to run out like that suggests that it may be getting
heated up, which might happen if the joint is running at an extreme
angle for long periods (such as your 8hr break in). The light brown
colour of the lube is often indicative of water contamination, but it
might just be the normal colour for the type of grease your CV joints
were lubed with.
I believe you are now completing the break in with the tranny in
neutral, so the grease leakage should have stopped, however, you will
want to get those CV joints repacked with grease since it looks like
you've lost a considerable amount.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
"Amen, brother"
Thanks for the vivid example,
you could not have said it better,
this is what drives me to keep my EV on the road!
Also agree to explain to kids - they will have to
live on this earth longer than we; in a sense we
are borrowing it from them, though few see it that way.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 1:00 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hydrogen: The Emperor Is Naked
Cor van de Water wrote:
> ...continued support for Hydrogen could be explained as an attempt
> to avoid confrontation with uncomfortable truths (that alternative
> energies like Hydrogen are not a solution today).
>
> How long will it take for them to realize that there are EVs which
> are efficient and cost-competitive and available today?
> Helloooo - somebody listening?
>
> I will continue to make my statement - by simply driving to work
> every day.
I like Steve Clunn's image. Imagine you're in a bus racing across the
countryside, packed with people. It's dark and very foggy, and you can
barely see ahead. But the driver is an expert, and he knows the road,
and is on a tight schedule, so he barrels along at full speed. You're
not worried.
But then you begin to think. Didn't I hear something in the news, just
before we left, about the bridge being out on this road? Since no one
else seems to be worried, you ignore it, too. Maybe it was some other
bridge. Maybe the driver will take a detour.
Time passes. The bus doesn't turn, and doesn't slow down. Maybe, if
you're brave, you get up and tell the driver what you heard on the
radio. But he's confident, even arrogant; he won't listen. "I know what
I'm doing. You're wrong. That bridge couldn't have fallen down, or my
dispatcher would have told me."
You try to forget it, but more you think, the more you are sure that the
news report said the bridge was out. But still, you might be mistaken,
or the news report might have been wrong. What do you do?
Do you make a big fuss? Holler and yell, try to get the other passengers
alarmed, threaten that the bus stop "or else"? More than likely, that
would get you in trouble. You'd be branded as a nut, maybe prosecuted as
a terrorist. If you do nothing, and the bridge *is* out, you might be
killed. Or, the bus may detour due to some route change you didn't know
about, and you'd still get arrested for causing a commotion.
Experience has shown that alarmists in our society are largely ignored,
marginalized, or even persecuted. You can't make people change their
minds. Most people prefer to believe "authorities", even in the face of
evidence to the contrary. They will sit and do nothing, trusting in the
authorities, right to the bitter end when the "crash" is imminent and
only a fool would deny it.
When I first started driving my EVs, I tried to be an EVangelist and
convince others. It was hopeless. I just got ignored, ridiculed, and
branded at a nutcase. I gave up.
So my solution is to say, "Excuse me driver, but I heard the bridge is
out. I'm getting off the bus, right here, right now. The rest of you can
do as you please, but I'm going my own way, thank you." Maybe a few
others will think, "He doesn't seem like a nut; maybe he's onto
something. I think I'll get off, too."
I drive my EVs. But I don't proselytize, or fight for legislation to
force people to change; I seek to convince them by setting an example.
If they see me, every day, going back and forth to work, to school, to
the store; year in and year out; maybe a few will change their minds.
And, I teach kids. Their minds are not as closed as adults. They can
change; they'll be the ones who will "get off the bus" in time.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have no connection with this site, but it attempts to answer that question:
http://www.darelldd.com/ev/emissions.htm
That was about 5 minutes of googling. If you dug deeper, you could probably
get more definitive information.
-Ryan
Original Message -----------------------
A couple times a year I ask the list this question, andno-one has yet to reply,
but I am going to be persistant:
Does anyone know (or have a link with the info on) how much electricity is used
to produce gasoline? Say, X kwhs for every Y gallons produced, or per barrel of
crude?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been chatting with a guy here who REALLY wants to get back on
the EV road again.
He has a Le-Car which died 5 or 10 years ago and has been sitting ever since.
I kind of doubt it's restorable, since I think it's getting too much
rust in important places.
There are mouse nests in the charger/controller up front, so I'm not
sure if they are saveable either. (There are some exposed circuit
boards, which may have corroded.
He would LOVE to have a 100 mile range, but I've already told him
that would be rather expensive.
A 30 mile useable range would be useful, just not cover all his driving needs.
With the shorter range, he wouldn't need to exceed 55mph. Mostly
more like 45mph. There are rolling hills around here though.
Any suggestions for getting him back in an EV for minimal money?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<< http://www.darelldd.com/ev/emissions.htm
That was about 5 minutes of googling. If you dug deeper, you could probably get
more definitive information. >>>
Thanks, that's more than I found in an hour with various search engines. I was
mainly interested in what it takes to convert crude to petrol, which seems to
be 2.7kwh based on this link.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was looking for the answer to this and ran across an article I thought the
list might find interesting.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publications/primer_on
_gasoline_prices/html/petbro.html
________________________
Jay Brown
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 3:51 PM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: Electricity used in gasoline generation
A couple times a year I ask the list this question, andno-one has yet to
reply,
but I am going to be persistant:
Does anyone know (or have a link with the info on) how much electricity is
used
to produce gasoline? Say, X kwhs for every Y gallons produced, or per barrel
of
crude?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 13:50:57 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>A couple times a year I ask the list this question, andno-one has yet to reply,
>but I am going to be persistant:
>
>Does anyone know (or have a link with the info on) how much electricity is used
>to produce gasoline? Say, X kwhs for every Y gallons produced, or per barrel of
>crude?
>
That's like asking how high is up. There is no "number". Those who
know won't play to that folly and anyone who quotes a number doesn't
know.
A refinery operator knows with great precision what a given line using
a particular process requires for energy input. But there are simply
too many different processes, refining methods, markets and suppliers
to make up a number.
Most, if not all, refineries, like most other major manufacturing
industries, make most of their electrical power on-site.
In my previous life, my company retrofitted a state-of-the-art energy
management system to the power plant at the Westvaco kraft plant in
Charleston, SC and then did essentially the same job for a refinery
near Baton Rouge (no idea who might own the refinery now after 10+
years of ownership musical chairs.) The two plants and the method of
energy management were remarkably similar.
Westvaco's power plant had 6 boilers feeding 5 turbines plus process
steam. One boiler burned gas or oil. Two burned wood chips or
natural gas. Another burned chips, sawdust, black liquor and gas.
Another burned coal or bunker C. Yet another burned misc combustible
wastes, bunker C or gas. The turbo generators ranged in size from
20MWe to 100MWe. The paper plant required a few hundred thousand
pounds of low and medium pressure steam.
Major electrical consumers negotiate a variety of contracts with the
power company, usually some variation of a fixed price contract. Such
was the case here. Their contract with Carolina Power required them
to pay a fixed price for up to 50MW of power. That is, they paid the
same monthly dollar amount for any consumption from zero to 50MW.
There were fairly stiff penalties for exceeding this demand, even for
a few minutes per month. To get the negotiated rate, the company
negotiated a curtailment plan whereby SCP could curtail power (read:
turn off) to the plant with 15 minutes' notice whenever they needed
to, usually for peak demand shaving.
Our system gave them finer granularity than just popping breakers. We
could reduce the utility demand to whatever curtailment level they
demanded by ramping up the power plant and/or ramping down the speed
of the Kraft lines.
The available waste streams (chips, sawdust, black liquor, process
overrun, recycled kraft) varied widely depending on the speed of the
lines that in turn varied according to orders and available raw
materials. They bought natural gas and the various fuel oils both via
base contracts and on the spot market.
Our control system had to a) take the total power and steam demand
from the plant, b) available inventories of waste, c) available
inventories of fuel oils, d) the spot market prices of oil and gas, e)
the curtailment status of the incoming feed, f) the boiler and
generator availability status and then compute which boilers to fire
and which generators to operate to a) keep the SCP demand at exactly
50MW except during curtailment and make power and steam at the lowest
possible cost.
It took over 2 years after we completed the design and installation of
the hardware, working with their staff economists, to refine the model
to their satisfaction.
The refinery powerhouse was quite similar in that it had multiple
boilers capable of burning multiple fuels and supplied the refinery
with process steam and electrical power. There was an added
complication to that model because the system had to determine on a
moment-by-moment basis whether it was more economical to sell or to
burn a particular output stream.
So. We knew with great precision how many BTU (or joules or whatever
unit you like) it took to make a ton of craft or refine a barrel of
oil for those particular plants. The refinery's automation system
computed with great precision how many BTU it required to produce a
gallon of whatever hydrocarbon product. All that data could be
glommed together to come up with a total energy input to the plant and
by dividing that by the output, one could come up with an energy input
for each ton of craft or gallon of product. But only for those plants
and only for the specified conditions.
Breaking out the electrical input into a fixed number is impossible
because it varies so much. One could say that the Charleston Kraft
plant requires 50*24MWh to make ever how many tons of kraft the plant
made in one day but that number would be meaningless because the
utility supplied as little as about a forth of the total demand.
This little snapshot of a microscopic slice of the electrical market
illustrates just how ignorant and meaningless it is to try to reduce
things to numbers that similarly ignorant people can argue about. It
also illustrates the futility of attempting Soviet-style central
management of the US energy world like the Feds and apparently far too
many enviro-nuts want. All the Feds can do is screw things up.
Few things illustrate this more than the current situation with
natural gas. Ten years ago when the eco-nut rules made it essentially
impossible to site and license any other type of power plant,
utilities turned en-masse to natural gas. They switched to the point
that power generation now amounts to over half the total US demand for
gas (EPRI), up from an insignificant percentage 10-15 years ago.
The result? One look at this winter's gas bill answers that. Ten-15
years ago the usual suspects blithely claimed that switching wholesale
to NG would have no effect on the price of gas. yeah, right.
Now we have the same simpletons saying the same thing about diverting
everything from corn to trees into alcohol production to replace
petro-fuels. If the government goes down that path again, and it
looks like it is going to try, then anyone want to guess what the
price of a box of corn flakes will be in 10 years? Or a hamburger or
steak?
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> A refinery operator knows with great precision what a given
> line using a particular process requires for energy input.
> But there are simply too many different processes, refining
> methods, markets and suppliers to make up a number.
Which suggests that a more answerable question would be what the range
of that number might be.
> Most, if not all, refineries, like most other major
> manufacturing industries, make most of their electrical power on-site.
I wonder if the CA source that was quoted as referring to that state's
refineries being the largest industrial consumer of electricity was
considering only the external electricity consumed (i.e. that consumed
from the grid), or the total, including that generated on site? It
seems likely they would only consider the electricity consumed from the
external grid, but who knows?
> The refinery powerhouse was quite similar in that it had
> multiple boilers capable of burning multiple fuels and
> supplied the refinery with process steam and electrical
> power. There was an added complication to that model because
> the system had to determine on a moment-by-moment basis
> whether it was more economical to sell or to burn a
> particular output stream.
This very interesting description of industrial power management
indicates that an oil company/refinery is going to be motivated to
minimise the cost of energy consumed, but unfortunately that doesn't
necessarily translate into making the most efficient use of energy. For
instance, the refinery can use an output stream to generate (some of)
the electrical power required to produce that or other output streams,
and will do so if that makes more economic sense than selling that
stream, however, there is nothing in the model that would result in them
selling the *electricity* generated as an output stream. Obviously,
there is no free lunch: even if the refinery is motivated to minimise
their energy consumption, the total energy input to the refinery is
greater than the energy content of its output, but the more expensive
gasoline (for instance) becomes (greater demand/less supply), the
greater the incentive to sell that output stream even though more
effective use of that limited energy storage might be to convert it to
electrical power that can be sold for more efficient conversion to
motion, in an EV than gasoline in an ICE.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
I read this thread but did not see if this car had a
problem with its joints before you put your DC motor in.
Also, is anything leaking *into* the joints that could cause
the joints to ooze?
For example, if water has been leaking into there or if
transmission fluid has leaked along the axles into the
joints, that could explain why this light brown sludge is
coming out.
Grease should be just that - grease. Thick.
Very hard to make grease ooze, you would need extreme temps
to make it change into something running and oozing.
More likely that it has dissolved (oil) or is mixed (water)
due to the movement of the joints.
If the joints click, they certainly need to be re-greased.
The almost non-existent load on the joints should not have
caused any heating or damage by itself, but when the grease
is replaced with a water/grease "mayonaise" then things may
get tricky.
I have had a joint starting to make noise, cause the boot
was ripped and dirt got in (and the grease out), so I decided
to replace it and searched all junkyards in the neighborhood, but
nothing that matched (this was an older French car).
Then I cleaned the joint, re-greased it and put a new boot
on it and I have been driving that car for another 7 years
without problem. CV joints can be pretty tough, as they get
beat up with a lot of torque.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 1:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Oozing Joints
Dave and Roger,
I don't have an RPM counter on my motor yet, so I was afraid that if I ran
the motor with the car in neutral, it might over-rev the motor. But I just
did it now, and I guess the load of the transmission itself is enough to
keep the RPMs down, since it doesn't sound like it's over-revving. I'll
continue with the rest of the break-in period with the transmission in
neutral. Then, as soon as I get the EV running, I'll take it to a shop
first thing so that they can regrease the joint. I was indeed hearing a
slight clicking sound with the transmission was in gear, so maybe I was
doing a little damage to the CV joint. I'll make sure I have it checked
once the vehicle is on the road.
Thanks for the help.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave Cover
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 1:45 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Oozing Joints
CV joints shouldn't leak. It's not uncommon for the boots to get old and
crack. It's usually a
simple job to regrease the joint and replace the boot. The only other reason
I've seen for leaking
is loose clamps. Whatever the cause, I would fix it. Do the joints make any
noise now? In
particular, do they make a clicking noise when you take off with the wheel
turned to one side?
Dave Cover
--- Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks to the good advice I received here, I've been able to use a long
cord
> and break in my motor at 12V. The car is up on jack stands, and I've been
> running for about 8 hours now. I've noticed quite a bit of brown grease
> leaking out of the CV joints. Is this normal, or does it indicate a
> problem?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Man, I gotta get some money to play with. It seems to me that if we
could rotate the brush rigging 90 degrees, we would have reverse without
any contactors.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Man, I gotta get some money to play with. It seems to me that
> if we could rotate the brush rigging 90 degrees, we would
> have reverse without any contactors.
Money, schmoney! ;^>
You've got a series motor, just unbolt the comm endbell and rotate it 90
degrees and then power up the motor with no load and verify if it spins
forward or reverse.
The only torque trying to rotate the comm endbell is the drag from the
brushes, so if you can't or don't want to bolt it up 90 degrees rotated,
just use a couple of big hose clamps around the motor case and endbell
to secure it with a short length of flat stock.
This still gets complicated for John, or other siamese/dual motor users,
since both comm endbells would need to be rotated, but it would get rid
of additional contactors in the high current loop.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3/30/06, David Roden (Akron OH USA) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 29 Mar 2006 at 20:25, Philippe Borges wrote:
>
> > I'm only guessing here, but what about watering more often?
>
> I agree.
So does PSA - they changed the program on later vehicles to switch on
the watering light at a lower counter value. From what I can tell,
this improved reliability.
> BTW, it's a good idea to catch the overflow from the automatic watering
> system in a glass jar, and pour it into your filling tank, as I'm told that
> it may
> contain a bit of KOH.
Hmm. I had wondered about that, but I tend to throw it away on the
assumption that it will contain dust and dirt from the loose end of
the filling/vent tube. Perhaps a removable breather cap would be the
way around that.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There was no problem before break-in. I bought the car in Iowa, had a
garage make sure there were no problems with it, then drove it back to Utah.
There was no grease on the rods until about 4 hours into the break-in
period. I don't think that anything has been leaking into the boots.
Thanks for the advice. I think that as soon as I get the EV running, my
first trip will be down to the mechanic's do get the joints repacked.
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 6:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Oozing Joints
Bill,
I read this thread but did not see if this car had a
problem with its joints before you put your DC motor in.
Also, is anything leaking *into* the joints that could cause
the joints to ooze?
For example, if water has been leaking into there or if
transmission fluid has leaked along the axles into the
joints, that could explain why this light brown sludge is
coming out.
Grease should be just that - grease. Thick.
Very hard to make grease ooze, you would need extreme temps
to make it change into something running and oozing.
More likely that it has dissolved (oil) or is mixed (water)
due to the movement of the joints.
If the joints click, they certainly need to be re-greased.
The almost non-existent load on the joints should not have
caused any heating or damage by itself, but when the grease
is replaced with a water/grease "mayonaise" then things may
get tricky.
I have had a joint starting to make noise, cause the boot
was ripped and dirt got in (and the grease out), so I decided
to replace it and searched all junkyards in the neighborhood, but
nothing that matched (this was an older French car).
Then I cleaned the joint, re-greased it and put a new boot
on it and I have been driving that car for another 7 years
without problem. CV joints can be pretty tough, as they get
beat up with a lot of torque.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 1:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Oozing Joints
Dave and Roger,
I don't have an RPM counter on my motor yet, so I was afraid that if I ran
the motor with the car in neutral, it might over-rev the motor. But I just
did it now, and I guess the load of the transmission itself is enough to
keep the RPMs down, since it doesn't sound like it's over-revving. I'll
continue with the rest of the break-in period with the transmission in
neutral. Then, as soon as I get the EV running, I'll take it to a shop
first thing so that they can regrease the joint. I was indeed hearing a
slight clicking sound with the transmission was in gear, so maybe I was
doing a little damage to the CV joint. I'll make sure I have it checked
once the vehicle is on the road.
Thanks for the help.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave Cover
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 1:45 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Oozing Joints
CV joints shouldn't leak. It's not uncommon for the boots to get old and
crack. It's usually a
simple job to regrease the joint and replace the boot. The only other reason
I've seen for leaking
is loose clamps. Whatever the cause, I would fix it. Do the joints make any
noise now? In
particular, do they make a clicking noise when you take off with the wheel
turned to one side?
Dave Cover
--- Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks to the good advice I received here, I've been able to use a long
cord
> and break in my motor at 12V. The car is up on jack stands, and I've been
> running for about 8 hours now. I've noticed quite a bit of brown grease
> leaking out of the CV joints. Is this normal, or does it indicate a
> problem?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > From: Neon John <jgjgdojohngsbbqom>
> >I work for a major corporation with an extensive ride share program.
> They have monthly giveaways including cash.
> >When 3 employees had GM EV1s they refused to install Free chargers.
>
> Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? Asking the company
> for a mumultihousand dollar expenditure for something that would
> benefit exactly 3 employees is outrageous.
John,
I guess I wasn't clear, the chargers would have been installed for free,
no cost to my employer except the use of their electricity. Many other
employees were trying to get the EV1, 3 at one location was a lot at the
time, we had over 1500 employees. There were others like myself that
built our own cars and would have charged also. Ridiculous may be a
little strong since we had charging stations all over Phoenix and southern
caCalifornia. I know they were subsidized but many were installed by the
businesses at a cost to them.
> >I thought that a dc generator would be more efficient than an ac
> generator with a battery charger.
>
> Perhaps but probably not, especially considering the age and engine
> design of that KoKohler
>
>>Has anyone used a DC generator to charge a pack or have any info on
>> using one as a charger?
> This setup would have all the problems and inefficiencies that
> prompted the car industry to move from generators to alternators.
>
Neon,
I really do appreciate your advice and prefer to only use a generator in
an emergency. I will research the options you described and figure out
what would be best for my situation. I built my own charger, I think it is
what you refer to as a "Bad Boy", so I know enough to be dangerous (to
myself). Thanks for the tips, I may have some questions later.
Luckily, I am use to dealing with jumping cactus out in these parts.. so
your comments did not offend me, it is just that I dont find all the barbs
right away.
Thanks,
Jimmy
--- End Message ---
