EV Digest 5301
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 96v charge only goes to 121.5 & 5 amps. Wrong resistor?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Hydrogen: The Emperor Is Naked
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Link 10-e meter (again) prescaler
by paul wiley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Link 10-e meter (again) prescaler
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Would like large AGM with good EV user history
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Link 10-e meter (again) prescaler
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Dumb question time
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Link 10-e meter (again) prescaler
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Low Priced conversion options?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Low Priced conversion options?
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Hydrogen: The Emperor Is Naked
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Independant Rear Suspension for Twin/Siamese DC Setup
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: internal resistance
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Would like large AGM with good EV user history
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Would like large AGM with good EV user history
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Link 10-e meter (again) prescaler
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Low Priced conversion options?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Independant Rear Suspension for Twin/Siamese DC Setup
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) AFC issued, was Re: Hydrogen: The Emperor Is Naked
by "Joshua Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Low Priced conversion options?
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Would like large AGM with good EV user history
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Independant Rear Suspension for Twin/Siamese DC Setup
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Would like large AGM with good EV user history
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I've used several K&W BC-20 chargers with success. I'm not sure if this is
what's causing the problem, but the resistor choice for the charger is based
upon pack voltage, not the finish voltage. Try the resistor to be used with 96
volts and see if that works out for you.
Lawson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I forgot about that. Methane with one additional electron becomes
methanol.
Mike
--- Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At the present, the primary source for hydrogen is natural gas; a
> product drilled for and exploited by, you guessed it, the petroleum
> industry. Hydrogen, at this point in time, is little more than an
> extension of the petroleum industry,
>
> Wayne W.
>
> At 04:09 PM 3/30/2006, you wrote:
> >The general public doesn't realise that you need to put any energy
> in, to
> >get energy out of water. A few times I have run into this.
> >
> >Me: What do you thing we'll do when the oil runs out? Where will we
> get our
> >energy?
> >
> >General Public: Hydrogen.
> >
> >Me: Yes, how will you make the hydrogen?
> >
> >General Public: From water.
> >
> >Me: Did you know that you have to put more energy in to making
> hydrogen than
> >you get back when you use it?
> >
> >General Public: Really? Are you sure? (skeptical)
> >
> >There's my version of the hydrogen myth.
> >
> >-Mike
> >
> >On 3/30/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Makes you wonder how the general public sees us getting the
> hydrogen out
> > > of the
> > > water -
> > >
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know that this is a dead horse around here, but i didnt find the answer in
the archives.
A while back there was a discussion about the need of a prescaler, if you tap
a single battery (with the common negative of the HV) for power of the Emeter.
Do you still need the prescaler?
Thanks
Paul
---------------------------------
Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo!
Messenger with Voice.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't think you need the prescaler. My prescaler steps 312v nominal
down to 12v. So if you have 12v, you're good. The only thing is that
the rs232, is somehow connected to the HV pack. I just don't remember
how.
Mike
--- paul wiley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I know that this is a dead horse around here, but i didnt find the
> answer in the archives.
> A while back there was a discussion about the need of a prescaler,
> if you tap a single battery (with the common negative of the HV) for
> power of the Emeter. Do you still need the prescaler?
>
> Thanks
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using
> Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Honestly, I think it has far less to do with the battery brand/quality.
It has more to do with how well they are charged, heated/cooled,
regulated etc. A pricey battery is no better than it's battery
management system, if one is present.
I've seen a string of cheap batterys last through some decent cycles.
It had a nice BMS installed.
Mike
--- Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> For the time being I've settled on installing a single series
> string of group 31 or group 27 (or larger if possible) AGMs.
>
> For these sizes, which if any battery brands have a history of good
> results amongst EVers? As far as where to buy, who has a record of
> good customer service with the EV community?
>
> A few that have been ruled out so far (but could be reconsidered):
>
> -Hawkers (Enersys?) too expensive if well over $200/battery.
> -Optima YT: also may be too expensive, recent quality concerns?
> Doesn't have brick shape, so may not be great choice for installation
> on its side.
> -Concorde: "master distributor" wanted $229+ per battery, no
> thanks.
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using
> Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul,
I know that this is a dead horse around here, but i didnt find the answer in the archives.
A while back there was a discussion about the need of a prescaler, if you tap a single battery (with the common negative of the HV) for power of the Emeter. Do you still need the prescaler?
I think you're confusing the voltage sense input and the voltage
supply. You can tap the lowest battery in the pack to power the e-meter
(better to tap the lowest two since your single 12V battery could sag
below the minimum input). Better yet to use a DC/DC converter to power
the e-meter off your 12V system (Mouser part number 580-NDY1215C - a
little over-rated on power, but this one has a wide input voltage range).
Now for the prescaler - this is for the voltage sense input (i.e. where
it reads the pack voltage). I don't have the numbers in front of me,
but if your pack is over approx. 48V, you need a prescaler.
Hopefully that helps clarify.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave wrote:
> Does anyone know for sure if arcing (brushes or contacts) is reduced or
> eliminated within a vacuum or an inert gas atmosphere?
It still arcs, but the effects of the arcing change. A number of gases
have been used to extend contact life. You just have to pick one that is
a good coolant, won't break down from the heat of the arc, and won't
form compounds with the contact metals.
The oxygen in the air is particularly troublesome. It oxidizes the
contact metals. Simply replacing it with dry nitrogen would help extend
contact life.
A vacuum is good, and is used for very high voltage contacts. However,
the surrounding air or gas is also what is cooling the contacts. In
vacuum, you need much thicker conductors to conduct the heat away.
Mercury was also widely used in the past. Liquid mercury wets the
contacts, constantly renewing the surface, so they last forever. Mercury
gas fills the space between the open contacts. It is a good insulator,
and the phase change between liquid/gas conducts a great deal of heat.
Hydrogen has been used, usually for very large contactors. It is an
excellent coolant, but is hard to keep from leaking out.
The Kilovac contactors use sulfur hexafluoride, I believe. This odd gas
resists breakdown in the arc, and is a good coolant.
Even liquids have been used. There are contacts that are submerged in
oil for extremely high power. The oil works better than any gas for
cooling, and is a great insulator -- even very thin films of it have an
enormous breakdown voltage. However, it tends to decompose from the arc.
The usual solution is to use *lots* of oil and replace it occasionally.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sounds like I made the same mistake.
Mike
--- Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Paul,
>
> >I know that this is a dead horse around here, but i didnt find the
> answer in the archives.
> > A while back there was a discussion about the need of a prescaler,
> if you tap a single battery (with the common negative of the HV) for
> power of the Emeter. Do you still need the prescaler?
> >
> >
> I think you're confusing the voltage sense input and the voltage
> supply. You can tap the lowest battery in the pack to power the
> e-meter
> (better to tap the lowest two since your single 12V battery could sag
>
> below the minimum input). Better yet to use a DC/DC converter to
> power
> the e-meter off your 12V system (Mouser part number 580-NDY1215C - a
> little over-rated on power, but this one has a wide input voltage
> range).
>
> Now for the prescaler - this is for the voltage sense input (i.e.
> where
> it reads the pack voltage). I don't have the numbers in front of me,
>
> but if your pack is over approx. 48V, you need a prescaler.
>
> Hopefully that helps clarify.
>
> -Ryan
> --
> - EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
> Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
> E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> I've been chatting with a guy here who REALLY wants to get back on
> the EV road again. He has a LeCar which died 5 or 10 years ago and
> has been sitting ever since.
The LeCar I bought in 1997 was a basket case. All of the EV components
that had been added by US Electricar were gone or useless, and even the
transaxle was missing. I spent about $1000 to restore it, and $4000 for
the EV components to convert it again (new motor, batteries, controller,
charger, E-meter, etc.). That's a lot to spend on a 25 year old car. So
it's do-able, but it may not be cost effective.
> He would LOVE to have a 100 mile range, but I've already told him
> that would be rather expensive.
That's for sure! You might get 50 miles if you're careful with lead
acids. But to get 100 miles range would require very expensive nimh or
lithium batteries.
> Any suggestions for getting him back in an EV for minimal money?
Maybe put the LeCar back on the road, and sell it to raise money for
something he really likes?
Is he in the Seattle area? Suggest that he go to the Seattle EV club
meeting. There are lots of folks in the area that have (or had) LeCar
EVs. Eric Sundin, John Frost, and Victor Munoz come to mind.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:27 PM 3/30/2006, Lee Hart wrote:
The LeCar I bought in 1997 was a basket case. All of the EV components
that had been added by US Electricar were gone or useless, and even the
transaxle was missing.
Well, at least this one is complete. I'm just worried about
structural problems due to rust, AND corrosion of the electronics.
Assuming the rust isn't TOO bad, the motor should still be ok.
What is an appropriate low-end controller/charger for this thing? I
think it was a 72 volt system.
> He would LOVE to have a 100 mile range, but I've already told him
> that would be rather expensive.
That's for sure! You might get 50 miles if you're careful with lead
acids. But to get 100 miles range would require very expensive nimh or
lithium batteries.
Or a small pickup truck with LOTS of lead in it.
He's not wedded to keeping this car, just want's to be driving electric again.
Is he in the Seattle area? Suggest that he go to the Seattle EV club
meeting. There are lots of folks in the area that have (or had) LeCar
EVs. Eric Sundin, John Frost, and Victor Munoz come to mind.
He's up here on Whidbey with me, so the SEVA meeting is about 1 1/2
hours away for him.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is another way to produce hydrogen. You do not need liquid hydrogen,
hydrogen gas or of type of hydrogen forms that would used as a fuel for a
prime mover.
I have experiment with hydrogen fuel to run standard 4 cycle engines which
does not work as good as a turbine engine. You do not need to compress the
hydrogen, so you do not need a compression cycle. Also any ignition advance
will push the pistons right back, so we need to retard are ignition about 2
degrees over top dead center. This make a weak running engine which was not
design to run on this fuel.
At ignition the hydrogen and oxygen turns into water which dilutes the oil
sump. The mains on the engine did not last long.
One university experiment using a exhaust driven turbo charger as there
engine, which works good.
There is about 500,000 btus of hydrogen from a gallon of water, where there
is 115,000 btus of a gallon of gasoline.
We used a AFC (Alkaline Fuel Cell) to produce the hydrogen. The fuel for
this type of cell is about 50 percent of distill water and 50 percent of
ammonia which needs electrolysis to remove the hydrogen from this solution.
Or you can used methanol and potassium hydroxide which does not need any
electrolysis. This is done right in the fuel cell as needed.
The other type of fuel cell PEM (Polymer Electrolyte Membrane) requires the
used of a hydrogen fuel. The PEM people do not like the AFC people so they
will dis-credit them any time they can.
The PEM units cost at a minimum about $15,000 and the AFC units cost about
$5000.00 for a 50 kw unit.
The ratio of hydrogen and oxygen that is injected into a engine, is not 2
parts of hydrogen and 1 part of oxygen which is by volume (H2O). You used
the atom weight ratio, or 1 part of hydrogen to 8 parts of oxygen or
regulated at the injection ports to 1 oz to 8 oz's ratio.
In our experiments we will use the hydrogen only and use compress air that
came from a turbo charger setting on the intake manifold. This formula made
for a weak engine, that was a 4-cycle.
The AFC Alkaline fuel cell, which we made in different grids configuration
and testing different solutions combinations, works better as a fuel cell
for generating electricity. We did not add or make the equipment to do
this, because it will be cheaper to purchase a AFC fuel cell than to try to
make one.
This will be my next power system for my EV.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: Hydrogen: The Emperor Is Naked
> I forgot about that. Methane with one additional electron becomes
> methanol.
>
> Mike
>
> --- Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > At the present, the primary source for hydrogen is natural gas; a
> > product drilled for and exploited by, you guessed it, the petroleum
> > industry. Hydrogen, at this point in time, is little more than an
> > extension of the petroleum industry,
> >
> > Wayne W.
> >
> > At 04:09 PM 3/30/2006, you wrote:
> > >The general public doesn't realise that you need to put any energy
> > in, to
> > >get energy out of water. A few times I have run into this.
> > >
> > >Me: What do you thing we'll do when the oil runs out? Where will we
> > get our
> > >energy?
> > >
> > >General Public: Hydrogen.
> > >
> > >Me: Yes, how will you make the hydrogen?
> > >
> > >General Public: From water.
> > >
> > >Me: Did you know that you have to put more energy in to making
> > hydrogen than
> > >you get back when you use it?
> > >
> > >General Public: Really? Are you sure? (skeptical)
> > >
> > >There's my version of the hydrogen myth.
> > >
> > >-Mike
> > >
> > >On 3/30/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Makes you wonder how the general public sees us getting the
> > hydrogen out
> > > > of the
> > > > water -
> > > >
> >
> >
>
>
> Here's to the crazy ones.
> The misfits.
> The rebels.
> The troublemakers.
> The round pegs in the square holes.
> The ones who see things differently
> The ones that change the world!!
>
> www.RotorDesign.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So looking at the various rear end options, I see:
Matt - Nissan R200V Limited Slip
John - Ford 9" with detroit locker
Otmar - Porsche transaxle
For my new car, I am planning to have independant rear suspension, would the
R200V be suitable or is this pushing its limits? I presume the Ford 9" is
not IRS, and maybe a bit heavy for more of a fast street car than a drag car
(please correct me if I am mistaken though)
thanks
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> The recent batch of auto company built EVs were an exception, because
>> they were rank novices at EV design and tended not to pay any attention
>> to what existing EVs were already doing (it's called NIH or Not
>> Invented Here syndrome). They used high voltages (around 300v), and
>> so were more complicated, expensive, required far more stringen safety
>> precautions, and had many battery balancing problems.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> This of course is oversimplifying things, Lee :-)
Yes, guilty as charged. The full details of the situation are so complex
that it would take a book to explain them. No one would bother to read
it, and the point would be lost.
I summarized it all into a single paragraph. I sought to distill out the
essence of what they did as briefly and concisely as I could.
> Reading this statement seem like people built high voltage EVs for no
> purpose, I mean no advantages, just because they are ignorant to know
> anything better. Hope this is not the case. I dare to think EV1
> designers were (and are) smart enough to have valid reasons, whether
> these reasons are relevant to a backyard hobbyists or not.
No; I think the EV1 designers were very bright, skilled, and
hard-working. They just lacked any experience with EVs, and NIH syndrome
discouraged them from looking outside the corporation for answers.
GM's internal experience with EVs came from things like their earlier EV
experiments, like the 1965 Electrovairs; from its large diesel-electric
locomotive division (Electromotive), and the various large AC motor
drives used within their manufacturing organization. These systems all
use high voltage, 3-phase AC induction motors. So that is naturally
where they began.
I know they considered DC motors, but rejected them because of perceived
brush problems. The DC motors they were familiar with were small, cheap
automotive grade motors, which have short life expectancies. They no
doubt also considered their experiences with the old automotive
generators; AC alternators are cheap and work better. These put the
"thumb on the scale" against DC.
Thus they thought their only real "option" was a high-voltage, AC
system. They did not seriously look at anything else.
When I was at EVS14 in 1998, I had a chance to talk to one of the GM
engineers that designed the EV1 who was there presenting a paper. I
found he was totally unaware of anything but the barest highlights of EV
history. He'd never heard of thermal management in battery boxes, or
battery management for long strings, or interpoles for high voltage DC
motors. He knew nothing about chargers except the Magnecharger; nothing
about batteries except Delphi and Ovonic. It was as if electric vehicles
had never existed, and GM had invented them; and any technology not
inside GM didn't exist. He was totally blown away to see the other EVs
there, like the Solectria Sunrise or Japanese Luciole. He was shocked to
see brushless DC motors in the HummVee and Zytek Lotus. He was the
epitome of NIH.
The reason that you study history is so you don't have to repeat it, and
make all those mistakes yourself. Sure; 9 out of 10 things that old EV
companies and hobbyists did turned out badly. But if you don't study
them, you won't find the one solution that DID work!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have had pretty good luck with NAPA orbitals. when
I had my charger go on the fritz I over charged them
and had early failure. I took them back to NAPA and
all but one were replaced on warranty--FREE
replacement within two years. I have not got much
data on the second set as I turned them overto
benteaches at the electric car class at Bonita High
school.
--- Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> For the time being I've settled on installing a
> single series string of group 31 or group 27 (or
> larger if possible) AGMs.
>
> For these sizes, which if any battery brands have
> a history of good results amongst EVers? As far as
> where to buy, who has a record of good customer
> service with the EV community?
>
> A few that have been ruled out so far (but could
> be reconsidered):
>
> -Hawkers (Enersys?) too expensive if well over
> $200/battery.
> -Optima YT: also may be too expensive, recent
> quality concerns? Doesn't have brick shape, so may
> not be great choice for installation on its side.
> -Concorde: "master distributor" wanted $229+ per
> battery, no thanks.
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone
> Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Freidberg wrote:
>
>
> For the time being I've settled on installing a single series string of
> group 31 or group 27 (or larger if possible) AGMs.
>
> For these sizes, which if any battery brands have a history of good results
> amongst EVers? As far as where to buy, who has a record of good customer
> service with the EV community?
>
> A few that have been ruled out so far (but could be reconsidered):
>
> -Hawkers (Enersys?) too expensive if well over $200/battery.
> -Optima YT: also may be too expensive, recent quality concerns? Doesn't
> have brick shape, so may not be great choice for installation on its side.
> -Concorde: "master distributor" wanted $229+ per battery, no thanks.
It sounds like people are quoting you full retail single-piece prices.
You need to push harder. Tell them you want X quantity of batteries, and
want a quantity pricing. They are heavy enough to justify a special
shipment right from the factory, which is good so all will be of the
same age and same batch.
But if cheap is the goal, you can also find used or surplus AGMs. I got
ten used Johnson Controls Dynasty UPS12-270FR batteries for free from a
UPS systems at the airport; they blindly replace them every few years,
regardless of condition. A few years ago, I bought a dozen new but
3-year-old surplus Hawker SBS60 from ABC Electronics in Minneapolis for
$28 each. The Surplus Center <www.surpluscenter.com> is selling a
similar model (SBS60/2, item #11-3096) for $34.95.
You have to test used or surplus batteries, and watch out for being
cheated by someone selling junk -- but the price is right! :-)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
paul wiley wrote:
>
> I know that this is a dead horse around here, but i didnt find the answer in
> the archives.
> A while back there was a discussion about the need of a prescaler, if you
> tap a single battery (with the common negative of the HV) for power of the
> Emeter. Do you still need the prescaler?
The prescaler is a resistive divider so the E-meter will *display* the
full pack voltage. Without a prescaler, the highest voltage it can
display is 40 volts.
Tapping the pack is a trick to get *power* to operate the E-meter.
Without tapping the pack, you need a little isolated DC/DC converter to
power the E-meter.
The two are separate problems.
Although, in a pinch, you can wire the E-meter to both get its power
from a 12v tap, and display the voltage at that tap, without a DC/DC or
prescaler. This is how it is normally used in automotive, marine, and RV
application. If you want to to this in your EV, I would suggest tapping
the pack at 24v rather than 12v; that way the E-meter won't go under its
10v minimum when you accellerate hard with nearly dead batteries.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"John G. Lussmyer" wrote:
> Well, at least this one is complete. I'm just worried about structural
> problems due to rust, AND corrosion of the electronics. Assuming the
> rust isn't TOO bad, the motor should still be ok. What is an
> appropriate low-end controller/charger for this thing? I think it was
> a 72 volt system.
LeCars were pretty strong, so it would take a significant amount of rust
before they are seriously weakened. The outside sheet metal is paper
thin, though; rust on the hood, fenders, or doors is ugly but not
structural.
Is this a US Electricar conversion. If so, I wouldn't keep anything from
it except the motor (a 48v Prestolite MTC-4001). The stock system was a
24v/48v contactor controller, with 16 6v batteries.
> He's not wedded to keeping this car, just want's to be driving electric
> again.
Then I'd pick another vehicle. It sounds like the LeCar is too old and
in too poor a condition.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Don
The late model Ford Thunderbird (Like the '92 junker in my back yard) used
an IRS that was able to live behind the V8's and turbo engines they used.
David C. Wilker Jr.
"Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate".
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 7:58 AM
Subject: Independant Rear Suspension for Twin/Siamese DC Setup
So looking at the various rear end options, I see:
Matt - Nissan R200V Limited Slip
John - Ford 9" with detroit locker
Otmar - Porsche transaxle
For my new car, I am planning to have independant rear suspension, would
the
R200V be suitable or is this pushing its limits? I presume the Ford 9" is
not IRS, and maybe a bit heavy for more of a fast street car than a drag
car
(please correct me if I am mistaken though)
thanks
Don
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I thought that the alkaline fuel cell was not a viable solution because of
it's tendency to be poisoned by CO2 and other airborne gasses. Has anyone
heard of new technology that has overcome this?
Josh
On 3/31/06, Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> There is another way to produce hydrogen. You do not need liquid
> hydrogen,
> hydrogen gas or of type of hydrogen forms that would used as a fuel for a
> prime mover.
>
> I have experiment with hydrogen fuel to run standard 4 cycle engines which
> does not work as good as a turbine engine. You do not need to compress
> the
> hydrogen, so you do not need a compression cycle. Also any ignition
> advance
> will push the pistons right back, so we need to retard are ignition about
> 2
> degrees over top dead center. This make a weak running engine which was
> not
> design to run on this fuel.
>
> At ignition the hydrogen and oxygen turns into water which dilutes the oil
> sump. The mains on the engine did not last long.
>
> One university experiment using a exhaust driven turbo charger as there
> engine, which works good.
>
> There is about 500,000 btus of hydrogen from a gallon of water, where
> there
> is 115,000 btus of a gallon of gasoline.
>
> We used a AFC (Alkaline Fuel Cell) to produce the hydrogen. The fuel for
> this type of cell is about 50 percent of distill water and 50 percent of
> ammonia which needs electrolysis to remove the hydrogen from this
> solution.
> Or you can used methanol and potassium hydroxide which does not need any
> electrolysis. This is done right in the fuel cell as needed.
>
> The other type of fuel cell PEM (Polymer Electrolyte Membrane) requires
> the
> used of a hydrogen fuel. The PEM people do not like the AFC people so
> they
> will dis-credit them any time they can.
>
> The PEM units cost at a minimum about $15,000 and the AFC units cost about
> $5000.00 for a 50 kw unit.
>
> The ratio of hydrogen and oxygen that is injected into a engine, is not 2
> parts of hydrogen and 1 part of oxygen which is by volume (H2O). You used
> the atom weight ratio, or 1 part of hydrogen to 8 parts of oxygen or
> regulated at the injection ports to 1 oz to 8 oz's ratio.
>
> In our experiments we will use the hydrogen only and use compress air that
> came from a turbo charger setting on the intake manifold. This formula
> made
> for a weak engine, that was a 4-cycle.
>
> The AFC Alkaline fuel cell, which we made in different grids configuration
> and testing different solutions combinations, works better as a fuel cell
> for generating electricity. We did not add or make the equipment to do
> this, because it will be cheaper to purchase a AFC fuel cell than to try
> to
> make one.
>
> This will be my next power system for my EV.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 8:06 AM
> Subject: Re: Hydrogen: The Emperor Is Naked
>
>
> > I forgot about that. Methane with one additional electron becomes
> > methanol.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > --- Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > At the present, the primary source for hydrogen is natural gas; a
> > > product drilled for and exploited by, you guessed it, the petroleum
> > > industry. Hydrogen, at this point in time, is little more than an
> > > extension of the petroleum industry,
> > >
> > > Wayne W.
> > >
> > > At 04:09 PM 3/30/2006, you wrote:
> > > >The general public doesn't realise that you need to put any energy
> > > in, to
> > > >get energy out of water. A few times I have run into this.
> > > >
> > > >Me: What do you thing we'll do when the oil runs out? Where will we
> > > get our
> > > >energy?
> > > >
> > > >General Public: Hydrogen.
> > > >
> > > >Me: Yes, how will you make the hydrogen?
> > > >
> > > >General Public: From water.
> > > >
> > > >Me: Did you know that you have to put more energy in to making
> > > hydrogen than
> > > >you get back when you use it?
> > > >
> > > >General Public: Really? Are you sure? (skeptical)
> > > >
> > > >There's my version of the hydrogen myth.
> > > >
> > > >-Mike
> > > >
> > > >On 3/30/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Makes you wonder how the general public sees us getting the
> > > hydrogen out
> > > > > of the
> > > > > water -
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Here's to the crazy ones.
> > The misfits.
> > The rebels.
> > The troublemakers.
> > The round pegs in the square holes.
> > The ones who see things differently
> > The ones that change the world!!
> >
> > www.RotorDesign.com
> >
> >
>
>
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At 09:49 AM 3/31/2006, Lee Hart wrote:
LeCars were pretty strong, so it would take a significant amount of rust
before they are seriously weakened. The outside sheet metal is paper
thin, though; rust on the hood, fenders, or doors is ugly but not
structural.
Ugly is ok. He just want to drive electric again, and has very little money.
Is this a US Electricar conversion. If so, I wouldn't keep anything from
it except the motor (a 48v Prestolite MTC-4001). The stock system was a
24v/48v contactor controller, with 16 6v batteries.
Hmm, I don't remember seeing any big contactors anywhere. I'll have
to look again.
Then I'd pick another vehicle. It sounds like the LeCar is too old and
in too poor a condition.
If it can be driving without major mechanical repairs, then it's
useable. Doing a whole nother conversion is a lot of time and money.
Remember what I said about very little money.
He recently dug it out of the weeds and inflated the tires, so I need
to go take another look now that I can actually see the undercarriage.
If it's possible to get this running with minimal investment, that's
a better choice for this guy.
Heck, if it's a contactor controller, and is still intact, then it's
likely still useable.
Right now, I'm pretty sure the charger is dead. Exposed circuit
boards with mouse nests on them likely means lots of corrosion.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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At 06:10 AM 3/31/2006, you wrote:
For the time being I've settled on installing a single series
string of group 31 or group 27 (or larger if possible) AGMs.
For these sizes, which if any battery brands have a history of
good results amongst EVers? As far as where to buy, who has a
record of good customer service with the EV community?
A few that have been ruled out so far (but could be reconsidered):
-Hawkers (Enersys?) too expensive if well over $200/battery.
-Optima YT: also may be too expensive, recent quality concerns?
Doesn't have brick shape, so may not be great choice for
installation on its side.
-Concorde: "master distributor" wanted $229+ per battery, no thanks.
No personal experience here, but Jim Ramos at American Battery
[EMAIL PROTECTED] likes a new one, Discover, by
Powerstride. Talk to him for details.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
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The Ford 9" is a rear differential format, it's not necessarily related to
the style of suspension. I don't think there ever were any OEM Ford 9"
independent rear ends built, but there are aftermarket IRS kits based on a
Ford 9" differential layout, typically intended for hotrods.
Here's my favorite:
http://www.dutchmanms.com/1_irsnav.html
I don't know how practical the inboard brakes are, but they sure look
cool. Be aware that an IRS, especially one using U-joints instead of CV
joints, can be very dangerous when it fails. This rear end is probably
intended more for looks (and probably some heavy high-performance use)
rather than hardcore racing.
--chris
On Fri, March 31, 2006 9:58 am, Don Cameron said:
> So looking at the various rear end options, I see:
>
> Matt - Nissan R200V Limited Slip
> John - Ford 9" with detroit locker
> Otmar - Porsche transaxle
>
>
> For my new car, I am planning to have independant rear suspension, would
> the
> R200V be suitable or is this pushing its limits? I presume the Ford 9" is
> not IRS, and maybe a bit heavy for more of a fast street car than a drag
> car
> (please correct me if I am mistaken though)
>
>
> thanks
> Don
>
>
>
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Lee Hart wrote:
It sounds like people are quoting you full retail single-piece prices. You
need to push harder. Tell them you want X quantity of batteries, and want a
quantity pricing. They are heavy enough to justify a special shipment right
from the factory, which is good so all will be of the same age and same batch.
Right, that's what I did with the Concorde "master distributor." Yet they
didn't want to budge much, so I moved on.
I did go into my local Batteries Plus store and they have their Werker line
including a 100 ah @ C20. They were actually able to produce a 200 page spec
sheet complete with discharge curves up to 300 amps. Normally $149, they'll go
to $129 for an order of 1 dozen. They say it is a good battery and it has a 1
year warranty. It's a nice looking battery, made in China too though. But maybe
that's not a negative.
Batteries Plus is close by so I can easily return any that go bad if they
did. There seems to be a customer service orientation there from what I could
tell during my brief visit.
Lee Hart wrote:
But if cheap is the goal, you can also find used or surplus AGMs. A few years
ago, I bought a dozen new but
3-year-old surplus Hawker SBS60 from ABC Electronics in Minneapolis for $28
each. The Surplus Center is selling a
similar model (SBS60/2, item #11-3096) for $34.95.
Nope, I'm ready to get real. I did connect up 8 39 ah Hawkers that I
purchased from Surplus Center. They were good for checking that the Geo
actually would run okay prior to a large pack investment.
Mark
---------------------------------
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.
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Lee.. and listers
Copper conducts about 2x the amps for the same cross section of aluminum.
Correct me If I am wrong. I don't think I am.
The weight is a savings, since copper weighs more than twice aluminum. So...
with 3 times the cross section.. you have the same weight, And about %30
less resistance.
For small tight places you can't beat the conductivity of copper....unless
you have a LOT of silver.
What makes sense is copper cables.. and massive aluminum buss bars. This
array would be around the series parallel contactor arrays. But with
aluminum you have to be very careful that
you don't have a Neck down in a critical place. Heat is much more a issue
when your melting point is 1/3 that of copper. Most big amp suckers.. have
that blue copper in places.
Aluminum would simply be liquid in these points.
This is a darn good point Lee, but you have to also fully understand the
limits, that are not that apparent with aluminum.
I know that the best aluminum is pure 1100 series alloys. There is a large
difference in conductivity between the available and common alloys of
aluminum Say the 6061 series and the 5250 series.
The 7075 is the strongest and Thanks to Boeing.. we have that in pretty good
volumes here in Seattle. When doing heatsink work the 1100 series is the
best, for thermal work and current carrying features but it goos up a drill
and tap, and is very soft and can be hard to use since it's rather easy to
destroy threads and precise machining surfaces.
I have this on the heatsink backplate in all my charger now. Make darn sure
you don't cross thread a hole!!!
Sorry that I don't have my CRC and electricians hand books in front of me to
spec these basic metal design "Rules of Thumb". I use a LOT of copper and
Aluminum in my chargers and the volume in the monster chargers is many
pounds of copper. Otmar pride's himself in having 12 plus pound of copper in
each Zilla 2K controller. The Manzanita 75K has 100s of lbs of copper and
Aluminum in it. And I need a fork truck to move it!
By the Way.. I now have 480 three phase on the 75K... No smoke or
fire...yet.
In this line.. the current 75K power stage is water cooled and has 1.250 by
.250 copper Buss bars in it... I want to do a engineering build up of a Air
cooled Stage... My client has fears of pumps that run dry and other failures
that a air-cooled stage won't have to endure. Good practice might be to
build the stage with Aluminum... and see what gains can be had.
Keep in mind this is a couple Grand of my cashflow...and, Liquefied
conductors are NOT good practice....
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > .151 seconds away from hitting the 11's, I'll stick to having just
> > fat 4/0 cables and thick copper bus bars inter-connecting the twin
> > motor sections of the Siamese 8.
>
> For you racers, where every ounce counts... Why not use aluminum buss
> bars and wiring? Aluminum is only slightly less conductive, but 1/3rd
> the weight of copper. So an aluminum wire of a given resistance is
> physically larger, but much lighter. You'd be taking 10's of pounds of
> copper out of the car.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
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