EV Digest 5302
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Would like large AGM with good EV user history
by "mike young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: 96v charge only goes to 121.5 & 5 amps. Wrong resistor?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Dumb question time
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: AFC issued, was Re: Hydrogen: The Emperor Is Naked
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: PFC-20 and regulator woes
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Exceeding contactor ratings?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Charger for 270V input?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: PFC-20 and regulator woes
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Would like large AGM with good EV user history
by "Ed K." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Would like large AGM with good EV user history
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Best 8V battery and best place to purchase 18 of them
by "Tom Shjarback" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Dumb question time
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Charger for 270V input?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Independant Rear Suspension for Twin/Siamese DC Setup
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: DC Motors for Racing ft.lbs. and hp
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Would like large AGM with good EV user history
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Charger for 270V input?
by "Sweeney, John P" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Angle Iron to Chassis
by Joel Hacker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I bought 12 Deka Gel gp 27 new from a distributor in syracuse ny at $120
each about 12/06 mike young
----- Original Message -----
From: "Electro Automotive" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: Would like large AGM with good EV user history
> At 06:10 AM 3/31/2006, you wrote:
> >
> > For the time being I've settled on installing a single series
> > string of group 31 or group 27 (or larger if possible) AGMs.
> >
> > For these sizes, which if any battery brands have a history of
> > good results amongst EVers? As far as where to buy, who has a
> > record of good customer service with the EV community?
> >
> > A few that have been ruled out so far (but could be reconsidered):
> >
> > -Hawkers (Enersys?) too expensive if well over $200/battery.
> > -Optima YT: also may be too expensive, recent quality concerns?
> > Doesn't have brick shape, so may not be great choice for
> > installation on its side.
> > -Concorde: "master distributor" wanted $229+ per battery, no thanks.
>
> No personal experience here, but Jim Ramos at American Battery
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] likes a new one, Discover, by
> Powerstride. Talk to him for details.
>
> Shari Prange
>
> Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
> http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not sure that would work. It'll only charge lower. LR.........
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 6:45 AM
Subject: Re: 96v charge only goes to 121.5 & 5 amps. Wrong resistor?
I've used several K&W BC-20 chargers with success. I'm not sure if this is
what's causing the problem, but the resistor choice for the charger is
based
upon pack voltage, not the finish voltage. Try the resistor to be used
with 96
volts and see if that works out for you.
Lawson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:59:12 -0600, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>A vacuum is good, and is used for very high voltage contacts. However,
>the surrounding air or gas is also what is cooling the contacts. In
>vacuum, you need much thicker conductors to conduct the heat away.
Vacuum is about the best. For example, I have some soviet made vacuum
relays rated at 50 amps and 25,000 volts. I can make a fist around
the thing. The gap contact gap is no more than 3/8". The relay is so
small that it must be operated submerged in oil or potting compound to
prevent arcing between the external terminals.
I've subjected one to the most power I can generate in my shop - 5-6
amps at 15,000 volts. When the contact breaks, there is a tiny
whitish flash on the stationary contact but that's gone by the time
the moveable contact has moved a sixteenth of an inch or so. This
flash is caused by vaporizing metal from the last vestiges of contact
and the moveable one moves away. The vacuum very quickly disperses
this vapor so it goes non-conductive almost instantly.
The major potential problem with a vacuum switch is heating the
conductors enough to start thermionic emission. At that point,
electron flow establishes conduction and the electron heating makes it
self-perpetuating. That is a somewhat "out there" problem, however,
since it requires near red heat.
>
>Mercury was also widely used in the past. Liquid mercury wets the
>contacts, constantly renewing the surface, so they last forever. Mercury
>gas fills the space between the open contacts. It is a good insulator,
>and the phase change between liquid/gas conducts a great deal of heat.
Yup, mercury wetted relays are still popular for switching small
signals. In addition to self-renewing contacts, the mercury's
capillary attraction seals the contacts shut so there is zero bounce.
For higher power systems, mercury displacement relays (MDR)are still
quite popular because they're stone-cold reliable and almost silent.
In this device, a ceramic plunger with something magnetic attached,
displaces a mercury pool, breaking it into two puddles and opening the
circuit. Any arcing is between two puddles of mercury.
I have a dual pole 50 amp MDR on my annealing oven and another on my
neon processing bench's bombarder. The controller achieves
proportional control by varying the duty cycle of the power going to
the heaters. The cycle is 10 seconds. This relay operates twice
every 10 seconds as long as the oven is in operation. My setup is
over 20 years old and has gotten quite a bit of use and still the
relay operates perfectly. It is practically silent (just a gentle hum
from the solenoid coil), there is no arcing and, very important for my
lab, no EMI generated as there would be with either dry contacts or
solid state control.
The bombarder's centerpiece is a 15kv, 50KVA pole pig (utility
transformer) driven in reverse to provide the high current at 15kv
necessary to process neon tubes. This MDR switches over 100 amps of
highly reactive power with no fuss and no muss. It replaced a NEMA 2
contactor which was quickly worn out (contacts burned) in the service.
>
>Hydrogen has been used, usually for very large contactors. It is an
>excellent coolant, but is hard to keep from leaking out.
Yep. Large powerplant generators are pressurized with (typically) 75
psi of hydrogen gas, both as coolant and as dielectric. Hydrogen is
superb at both.
>
>The Kilovac contactors use sulfur hexafluoride, I believe. This odd gas
>resists breakdown in the arc, and is a good coolant.
SF6 has become fairly popular for high power utility breakers but
they're being displaced by vacuum breakers because VBs last longer,
are smaller and need less maintenance.
I have seen a small, very high performance SF6 cooled DC motor
(probably BLDC, I don't recall). This was for a very
space-constrained application. The major disadvantage of SF6 in
moving equipment is that it is very dense and thus offers a lot of
drag.
>
>Even liquids have been used. There are contacts that are submerged in
>oil for extremely high power. The oil works better than any gas for
>cooling, and is a great insulator -- even very thin films of it have an
>enormous breakdown voltage. However, it tends to decompose from the arc.
>The usual solution is to use *lots* of oil and replace it occasionally.
Yup. Oil is also a method of using a device in an otherwise grossly
overloading application. For example, I can take an AC motor
contactor and instantly turn it into a DC contactor of equivalent or
higher rating by merely immersing it in light oil. I have done this
many times for high current, high voltage applications.
For example, I use a contactor, probably about a NEMA 3 or 4 as the
high voltage switch in my exploding wire experimental apparatus. This
involves switching several thousand amps at several thousand volts
into a thin wire which then explodes. All sorts of interesting things
can be done with an exploding wire. Want to cut a pattern in glass?
Just lay the wire out on the surface and explode it. Instant cut.
My previous switch, a triggered arc gap was VERY noisy - about like a
.45 pistol shot plus the gap eroded rapidly and the flash was huge.
With the oil-immersed contactor, there is a little thump, a little
blue-green arc and that's all. Now I can actually hear the energy
storage capacitors thump as the stress is relieved.
The Oil immersed contactor would be perfect for EV use and is
something that can easily be built at home. One can put a contactor
in an appropriately sized hunk of PVC pipe and caps and bring out the
leads through homemade oil-proof feedthrus. For smaller sized wires
such as the solenoid control leads, the wire is passed through the
hole in a brass fitting - most any kind will do - and the space around
the wire is filled with epoxy. The fitting is simply screwed through
the wall. For larger cables, a compression fitting is found that the
cable will pass through. Remove the crimp ferrule and put 2-3 O-rings
around the cable. Tighten the crimp nut to seal the cable to the
fitting. Screw the fitting in a tapped hole in the PVC normally.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joshua Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 11:24 AM
Subject: AFC issued, was Re: Hydrogen: The Emperor Is Naked
> I thought that the alkaline fuel cell was not a viable solution because of
> it's tendency to be poisoned by CO2 and other airborne gasses. Has anyone
> heard of new technology that has overcome this?
>
> Josh
This is true, if you let the potassium hydroxide just set there in the fuel
cell while its not working like the PEM type and uses air injection system
that must work all the time, even if the unit is not working. In a modified
AFC fuel cell, the hydrogen is extracted from the ammonia and is
re-circulated through a unit that extracts the hydrogen and oxygen for
reused from the electrolyte and there is no air injection .
In this modified AFC, there is no electrolyte standing in the cell. When I
built my test model, some years back, I did not have a circulating system,
the electrodes had to be clean after each operation.
>
> On 3/31/06, Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > There is another way to produce hydrogen. You do not need liquid
> > hydrogen,
> > hydrogen gas or of type of hydrogen forms that would used as a fuel for
> > a
> > prime mover.
> >
> > I have experiment with hydrogen fuel to run standard 4 cycle engines
> > which
> > does not work as good as a turbine engine. You do not need to compress
> > the
> > hydrogen, so you do not need a compression cycle. Also any ignition
> > advance
> > will push the pistons right back, so we need to retard are ignition
> > about
> > 2
> > degrees over top dead center. This make a weak running engine which was
> > not
> > design to run on this fuel.
> >
> > At ignition the hydrogen and oxygen turns into water which dilutes the
> > oil
> > sump. The mains on the engine did not last long.
> >
> > One university experiment using a exhaust driven turbo charger as there
> > engine, which works good.
> >
> > There is about 500,000 btus of hydrogen from a gallon of water, where
> > there
> > is 115,000 btus of a gallon of gasoline.
> >
> > We used a AFC (Alkaline Fuel Cell) to produce the hydrogen. The fuel
> > for
> > this type of cell is about 50 percent of distill water and 50 percent of
> > ammonia which needs electrolysis to remove the hydrogen from this
> > solution.
> > Or you can used methanol and potassium hydroxide which does not need any
> > electrolysis. This is done right in the fuel cell as needed.
> >
> > The other type of fuel cell PEM (Polymer Electrolyte Membrane) requires
> > the
> > used of a hydrogen fuel. The PEM people do not like the AFC people so
> > they
> > will dis-credit them any time they can.
> >
> > The PEM units cost at a minimum about $15,000 and the AFC units cost
> > about
> > $5000.00 for a 50 kw unit.
> >
> > The ratio of hydrogen and oxygen that is injected into a engine, is not
> > 2
> > parts of hydrogen and 1 part of oxygen which is by volume (H2O). You
> > used
> > the atom weight ratio, or 1 part of hydrogen to 8 parts of oxygen or
> > regulated at the injection ports to 1 oz to 8 oz's ratio.
> >
> > In our experiments we will use the hydrogen only and use compress air
> > that
> > came from a turbo charger setting on the intake manifold. This formula
> > made
> > for a weak engine, that was a 4-cycle.
> >
> > The AFC Alkaline fuel cell, which we made in different grids
> > configuration
> > and testing different solutions combinations, works better as a fuel
> > cell
> > for generating electricity. We did not add or make the equipment to do
> > this, because it will be cheaper to purchase a AFC fuel cell than to try
> > to
> > make one.
> >
> > This will be my next power system for my EV.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 8:06 AM
> > Subject: Re: Hydrogen: The Emperor Is Naked
> >
> >
> > > I forgot about that. Methane with one additional electron becomes
> > > methanol.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > --- Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > At the present, the primary source for hydrogen is natural gas; a
> > > > product drilled for and exploited by, you guessed it, the petroleum
> > > > industry. Hydrogen, at this point in time, is little more than an
> > > > extension of the petroleum industry,
> > > >
> > > > Wayne W.
> > > >
> > > > At 04:09 PM 3/30/2006, you wrote:
> > > > >The general public doesn't realise that you need to put any energy
> > > > in, to
> > > > >get energy out of water. A few times I have run into this.
> > > > >
> > > > >Me: What do you thing we'll do when the oil runs out? Where will we
> > > > get our
> > > > >energy?
> > > > >
> > > > >General Public: Hydrogen.
> > > > >
> > > > >Me: Yes, how will you make the hydrogen?
> > > > >
> > > > >General Public: From water.
> > > > >
> > > > >Me: Did you know that you have to put more energy in to making
> > > > hydrogen than
> > > > >you get back when you use it?
> > > > >
> > > > >General Public: Really? Are you sure? (skeptical)
> > > > >
> > > > >There's my version of the hydrogen myth.
> > > > >
> > > > >-Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >On 3/30/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Makes you wonder how the general public sees us getting the
> > > > hydrogen out
> > > > > > of the
> > > > > > water -
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Here's to the crazy ones.
> > > The misfits.
> > > The rebels.
> > > The troublemakers.
> > > The round pegs in the square holes.
> > > The ones who see things differently
> > > The ones that change the world!!
> > >
> > > www.RotorDesign.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mk1????
I have not sold those in years.
The current flavors are the Mk2B and the soon to be Mk3 digi reg.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Rich Rudman" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: PFC-20 and regulator woes
> I understand what you mean now by contamination.
>
> I had a leaky agm contaminate the bottom of a clamper and it made the
> fet come on for hours while charging. The 12v battery was down to 6 or
> 7 volts. It made the whole string's voltage lower. With the charger at
> EQ voltage (380v) all of the clampers turned on in that string. It was
> toasty in there. My boards are bare, without silk screen. I should
> coat them.
>
> Anyway, I like your Mk1 design. The blinking of the led and fet makes
> for nice feedback and regulation.
>
> Mike
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > The old Mk1s were solid but they could melt things.
> >
> > The Mk2 did there job, but had limits and had contamination issues.
> >
> > The Mk2B have it all but are contamination prone. They are analog
> and have
> > to be tuned so Conformal coating could mess up a setpot... so I have not
> > conformal coated them.
> >
> > The Mk3 Digi Regs, look like they could be solid and the only things
> that
> > need to be uncoated are the programming header and the RJ jacks.
> > Mk3 Regs are in service as of this week on my Fiero.
> > I expect to have Mk3s available for the public May 1.
> >
> > The Mk3 Reg is really the nifty Reg, You can read it and program it
> from a
> > laptop, and then watch the whole string work as you charge, and
> discharge.
> > For anyone who thinks Regs are not needed.... a couple of minutes
> watching a
> > stack of AGMs charge at 6 Kw...You can quickly see the batteries
> step out of
> > line, Then
> > You can enable the whole string of Reg for Dissapation.. and Poof..
> all the
> > AMG's voltage lock into the voltage your Regs are set to. Then you
> watch the
> > Reg's heatsink temps climb.
> > I will be testing the Reg feed back to the charge today, Since I
> scan the
> > Regs from my laptop, and then feed the control lines Back to Wayland's
> > PFC50X charger.
> > I have 9 Regs on line and about 50 Ft of RJ wound all over the
> floor. 4800
> > Baud is pretty fast and solid...for now. 9600 Got flakey with more
> than 16
> > regs on the Buss.
> > I need to spend some time taking pictures of this operation. It's really
> > cool
> >
> > For somebody that has spent 10 year swearing at Regs and spending weeks
> > dialing in Battery pack the hard way...These are a Dream come true.
> > The cool LEDs that wink when addressed are neat in a Dark room.
> >
> > You can only get Mk2B and Mk3. The others I don't sell or support
> anymore.
> >
> >
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:03 AM
> > Subject: Re: PFC-20 and regulator woes
> >
> >
> > > With complexity aside, which version of your regulator was the most
> > > reliable in your opinion Rich?
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rich Rudman" <ev@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > First it sounds like you have a bad regulator.
> > > > That happens...a lot more often than I like.
> > > >
> > > > The charger... not making power. that's a bad thing.
> > > > The Bussing sounds like you have a blown transitor in the power
> stage.
> > > >
> > > > Ship it back I will get it back on line. Since we are
> relativeley close,
> > > > This should be a quick fix.
> > > >
> > > > I will replace the Reg and retest everything.
> > > >
> > > > Rich Rudman
> > > > Manzanita Micro
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Doug Weathers" <dougw@>
> > > > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@>
> > > > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 4:28 PM
> > > > Subject: PFC-20 and regulator woes
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I think I may have a problem with a Mk2b regulator and my PFC-20
> > > > > charger.
> > > > >
> > > > > One of my regulators, when connected to the REGBUS, caused the
> charger
> > > > > to immediately stop charging. I believe the blue light would
> come on
> > > > > solid, but I can't verify it any more - see below. It's not the
> > > REGBUS
> > > > > cables - I've tried it in different places with different cables.
> > > > >
> > > > > If the suspected bad regulator was not on the REGBUS then charging
> > > > > seemed to be taking place. The voltage would rise, and the
> regulators
> > > > > would flash green, and the amber light on the charger would flash
> > > along
> > > > > with them making a clicking sound every time a regulator
> kicked in.
> > > > > Eventually the timer light would be solid blue and the
> batteries would
> > > > > be gently fizzing.
> > > > >
> > > > > While troubleshooting, I did something that caused the PFC-20 to
> > > emit a
> > > > > quiet buzzing sound and a bad smell. Now it doesn't appear to be
> > > > > charging.
> > > > >
> > > > > I believe the thing I did just before the smell was to unplug the
> > > > > REGBUS cable from the bad regulator, which was on the far end
> of the
> > > > > daisy chain from the charger at the time.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now when I turn on the charger, the green POWER LED comes on,
> and the
> > > > > red WARN LED blinks twice and goes out. The LIMITS and TIMER LEDs
> > > stay
> > > > > off. If the amps knob is turned all the way down it doesn't
> buzz, but
> > > > > as you turn up the amps the buzzing noise gets louder. It's never
> > > very
> > > > > loud, though.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any suggestions?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > Doug
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Doug Weathers
> > > > > Bend, OR, USA
> > > > > <http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another question for the EV gurus,
I have a SW200 contactor which is rated to 120V, and one of the options I'm
considering for my conversion is 18x8V which would bring the total pack to
144V. I know some voltage limits can be bent, motors for example, but exceeding
the contactor voltage rating makes me nervous. Welded contacts and blazing
though a red light before I can get to the breaker... give me the shivers. I'm
tempted to oversize it so that whatever I end up using to drop the contactor,
be it everytime I brake or just the keyswitch, it works. Is this paranoid or a
legitimate concern? Thanks!
Erik
electriclittlecar.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
On the topic of charging at work, the electrical distribution in the garage
where I work is 270V, which is standard I understand for commercial
distribution. I know at the college I was at I remember hearing all the
lighting was at 270V.
Is 270 "close enough" to 240 that a charger rated for 110-240 could run at 270
as well? Or would I need a step down transformer like a 240->208? This would
bring 270 to around 240.
Erik
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know you haven't. But it was easy to replicate for the tiny space I
have to mount them in.
Mike
--- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mk1????
> I have not sold those in years.
>
> The current flavors are the Mk2B and the soon to be Mk3 digi reg.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Rich Rudman" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:13 PM
> Subject: Re: PFC-20 and regulator woes
>
>
> > I understand what you mean now by contamination.
> >
> > I had a leaky agm contaminate the bottom of a clamper and it made
> the
> > fet come on for hours while charging. The 12v battery was down to 6
> or
> > 7 volts. It made the whole string's voltage lower. With the charger
> at
> > EQ voltage (380v) all of the clampers turned on in that string. It
> was
> > toasty in there. My boards are bare, without silk screen. I should
> > coat them.
> >
> > Anyway, I like your Mk1 design. The blinking of the led and fet
> makes
> > for nice feedback and regulation.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > The old Mk1s were solid but they could melt things.
> > >
> > > The Mk2 did there job, but had limits and had contamination
> issues.
> > >
> > > The Mk2B have it all but are contamination prone. They are analog
> > and have
> > > to be tuned so Conformal coating could mess up a setpot... so I
> have not
> > > conformal coated them.
> > >
> > > The Mk3 Digi Regs, look like they could be solid and the only
> things
> > that
> > > need to be uncoated are the programming header and the RJ jacks.
> > > Mk3 Regs are in service as of this week on my Fiero.
> > > I expect to have Mk3s available for the public May 1.
> > >
> > > The Mk3 Reg is really the nifty Reg, You can read it and program
> it
> > from a
> > > laptop, and then watch the whole string work as you charge, and
> > discharge.
> > > For anyone who thinks Regs are not needed.... a couple of minutes
> > watching a
> > > stack of AGMs charge at 6 Kw...You can quickly see the batteries
> > step out of
> > > line, Then
> > > You can enable the whole string of Reg for Dissapation.. and
> Poof..
> > all the
> > > AMG's voltage lock into the voltage your Regs are set to. Then
> you
> > watch the
> > > Reg's heatsink temps climb.
> > > I will be testing the Reg feed back to the charge today, Since I
> > scan the
> > > Regs from my laptop, and then feed the control lines Back to
> Wayland's
> > > PFC50X charger.
> > > I have 9 Regs on line and about 50 Ft of RJ wound all over the
> > floor. 4800
> > > Baud is pretty fast and solid...for now. 9600 Got flakey with
> more
> > than 16
> > > regs on the Buss.
> > > I need to spend some time taking pictures of this operation. It's
> really
> > > cool
> > >
> > > For somebody that has spent 10 year swearing at Regs and spending
> weeks
> > > dialing in Battery pack the hard way...These are a Dream come
> true.
> > > The cool LEDs that wink when addressed are neat in a Dark room.
> > >
> > > You can only get Mk2B and Mk3. The others I don't sell or support
> > anymore.
> > >
> > >
> > > Rich Rudman
> > > Manzanita Micro
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:03 AM
> > > Subject: Re: PFC-20 and regulator woes
> > >
> > >
> > > > With complexity aside, which version of your regulator was the
> most
> > > > reliable in your opinion Rich?
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rich Rudman" <ev@>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > First it sounds like you have a bad regulator.
> > > > > That happens...a lot more often than I like.
> > > > >
> > > > > The charger... not making power. that's a bad thing.
> > > > > The Bussing sounds like you have a blown transitor in the
> power
> > stage.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ship it back I will get it back on line. Since we are
> > relativeley close,
> > > > > This should be a quick fix.
> > > > >
> > > > > I will replace the Reg and retest everything.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rich Rudman
> > > > > Manzanita Micro
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Doug Weathers" <dougw@>
> > > > > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@>
> > > > > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 4:28 PM
> > > > > Subject: PFC-20 and regulator woes
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > I think I may have a problem with a Mk2b regulator and my
> PFC-20
> > > > > > charger.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > One of my regulators, when connected to the REGBUS, caused
> the
> > charger
> > > > > > to immediately stop charging. I believe the blue light
> would
> > come on
> > > > > > solid, but I can't verify it any more - see below. It's
> not the
> > > > REGBUS
> > > > > > cables - I've tried it in different places with different
> cables.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If the suspected bad regulator was not on the REGBUS then
> charging
> > > > > > seemed to be taking place. The voltage would rise, and the
> > regulators
> > > > > > would flash green, and the amber light on the charger would
> flash
> > > > along
> > > > > > with them making a clicking sound every time a regulator
> > kicked in.
> > > > > > Eventually the timer light would be solid blue and the
> > batteries would
> > > > > > be gently fizzing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > While troubleshooting, I did something that caused the
> PFC-20 to
> > > > emit a
> > > > > > quiet buzzing sound and a bad smell. Now it doesn't appear
> to be
> > > > > > charging.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I believe the thing I did just before the smell was to
> unplug the
> > > > > > REGBUS cable from the bad regulator, which was on the far
> end
> > of the
> > > > > > daisy chain from the charger at the time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now when I turn on the charger, the green POWER LED comes
> on,
> > and the
> > > > > > red WARN LED blinks twice and goes out. The LIMITS and
> TIMER LEDs
> > > > stay
> > > > > > off. If the amps knob is turned all the way down it
> doesn't
> > buzz, but
> > > > > > as you turn up the amps the buzzing noise gets louder.
> It's never
> > > > very
> > > > > > loud, though.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any suggestions?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Doug
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Doug Weathers
> > > > > > Bend, OR, USA
> > > > > > <http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm pretty happy with my Orbitals, but I haven't put a lot of cycles on them
yet:
http://www.autosupplyusa.com/34deepcycbat.html
The price was great - I emailed and got a good volume discount price - $98
if I remember correctly.
I was able to pick them up at the local (Dallas) distributor warehouse -
they took my old Trojans too.
Ed Koffeman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<< No personal experience here, but Jim Ramos at American Battery
[EMAIL PROTECTED] likes a new one, Discover, by
Powerstride. Talk to him for details. >>>
Here are a couple specific sites:
http://www.centricpowergroup.com/
http://www.discover-energy.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is the best 8V battery out there? I believe Trojan
makes three capacities and US Battery makes two capacities.
Of course I lean toward the higher capacities, any reason
not to? With what I know now I would go with the highest
capacity US battery with the small L terminals. Comments??
Also any reason not to go with the small L terminals?
Where is the best deal to be had? Go local, or is there
someone who will ship them and give a better price? And
what has current pricing for 8V in bulk of 18 been
recently?
Thanks for any information in advance.
Tom
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
For higher power systems, mercury displacement relays (MDR)are still
quite popular because they're stone-cold reliable and almost silent.
In this device, a ceramic plunger with something magnetic attached,
displaces a mercury pool, breaking it into two puddles and opening the
circuit. Any arcing is between two puddles of mercury.
I have a dual pole 50 amp MDR on my annealing oven and another on my
neon processing bench's bombarder. The controller achieves
proportional control by varying the duty cycle of the power going to
the heaters. The cycle is 10 seconds. This relay operates twice
every 10 seconds as long as the oven is in operation. My setup is
over 20 years old and has gotten quite a bit of use and still the
relay operates perfectly. It is practically silent (just a gentle hum
from the solenoid coil), there is no arcing and, very important for my
lab, no EMI generated as there would be with either dry contacts or
solid state control.
The bombarder's centerpiece is a 15kv, 50KVA pole pig (utility
transformer) driven in reverse to provide the high current at 15kv
necessary to process neon tubes. This MDR switches over 100 amps of
highly reactive power with no fuss and no muss. It replaced a NEMA 2
contactor which was quickly worn out (contacts burned) in the service.
Do you know of any MDR relays that would be appropriate for EV use as a
main contactor?
They sound like the bee's knees ;)
After digging around, I so far only found a 100A series from MDI which
can accept 2 AWG wire. How good are MDRs at overload situations?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes you would need a step down.
Even my PFC chargers can't do 277. In fact I don't recomend anything more
than 250.
277 is not very standard.. at all. It's one phase of 480 phase to ground. It
takes a special order to get to a transformer for this voltage. It's normal
enough for the transformer guys, but... you have to ask for it.
480 to 277 is what the 75K charger has for the isolation front end.
I was playing with this stuff last night.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 12:14 PM
Subject: Charger for 270V input?
> Hi all,
>
> On the topic of charging at work, the electrical distribution in the
garage
> where I work is 270V, which is standard I understand for commercial
> distribution. I know at the college I was at I remember hearing all the
> lighting was at 270V.
>
> Is 270 "close enough" to 240 that a charger rated for 110-240 could run at
270
> as well? Or would I need a step down transformer like a 240->208? This
would
> bring 270 to around 240.
>
> Erik
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jaguars and Chevrolet Corvettes have rear-wheel drive independent rear
suspensions.
The systems have been grafted into various other vehicles. I don't know
how a
Corvette or Jaguar setup would stand up to the obscene amounts of torque
that
some racing EVs produce.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some thaughts Jim.
We really need to talk this out face to face some time... Lots to learn All
it takes are a few Dozzen trys...
The 7075-T6 is VERY hard and strong Aluminum , Aircraft grade stuff. This
for the end caps because you will have to support the main motor bearing
under full torque at extreme levels not
designed for... but have to be tolerated.
The %25 tap is a very good starting point. What has to be done is run the
motor.. and find out how it reacts to weakening. All motors are different.
On the Big Allis Chalmers.. We all don't even know where to start. I bet
it's a stump puller...with very low rpm to volts. And almost no efforts on
the commutation issue. Read Arc like hell at over 120 volts.
Point is We have to find out, take some numbers and make some assumptions
once we have a clue.
Shortening the case ..to save weight.. first is it worth the effort??? On a
3000 lbs Ev not likeley... on a Rail... evey 10 lbs is worth Miliseconds.
It is worth $1000 of machining and
redesign.worht it . for almost not being able to measure improvments???
You have to play the cost return game.
But... these big old tank anchor motors, could take a LOT of weakening to
get more RPMs, and then tighten up the air gaps to bring the torque back.
Lots to be learned.
Jimmy Ma Boy....just look at John's twin 8s the comm is as black as I have
ever seen. Clearly the brushes are NOT right for Damp humid running at
extreme voltages and rpms.
I think Stock AVDC brushes would be better. There are Bibles full of brush
data... and the reasons for every recipe and flavor.
The brush pack in John's motors is very wrong....Need lots more abrasiveness
to wipe away the Black. The Oxide is way too dark, and this has to be eating
up a lot of potential volts and RPM.
I recomend John Stones the Comm before every outing.. And Scrape the Slots
of black carbon and blow things out.
Dennis Berube is a Whizz at brush compounds... but he only lets me see
crumbs and tidbits of what is needed and what works. After Every run his
comms look like they just came out of the Box. Really they look like they
are new. John's look like they need service NOW. They have a perfect
machined surface that looks like it has been Black anodized on aluminum. We
gotta find out why and get the right brushes.... That means you and me Jim.
I bet a stoning and polish and Comm Scrape is all that is between John and
Tim and 11seconds.
Hey... I don't recomend that we spend a second on moving brushes enough to
reverse the motor. Nope...it's a waste of efforts. We need to move the
brushes very precisely to make power... and let a couple of whimpy
contactors do the Reveser. And get them out of the Big current path for
racing. Or... use a tranny. What a concept.
The tiny starter motor and a ring gear... is old hat.. a couple of folks are
doing that, Dennis is... told me about it months beofore this week's thread.
I don't like in on Street car... On a racer, Hey what ever works.... and
passes Tech. Warning ...NHRA requires a reverse in all cars. Your local
track may not care.... But...
Hey on the Fat daddy.. I can supply some sacraficial parts... and some time
and effort... but this is a Long term thing.
We need to make you a Dyno... So you can break stuff and learn before we
bolt it into out Rigs.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: DC Motors for Racing ft.lbs. and hp
>
>
> Hey Rich, all
>
> Thought I'd throw back some info on this and even ask a question or two
8^ )
>
> >Snip
> What we need now Jim, is a Warp 8 that has some real motor mods done to
> it... Like tighter air gaps, Shimmed field shoes...
>
> I actually have a little stock pile of shims from back when they used
them and I don't throw anything away. i've been saving these for going on
15 years. So this is doable.
>
> >and then some field weakening to compensate for less RPM.
>
> I've actually discussed (with a few folks) doing a tap on the coils at
the 25% wrap and add additional terminals (as appossed to an external field
Weakening) but the 8's and 9's are really tight (as I'd have to route the
new wire/cable between the housing and the back of the coil. FT wants me to
try this on the big twin to Waylands Yellow Beast and being there is the
room to easily do this on a big Allis Chalmers it will become a good test
subject vs.a whole lot more work on an 8 or 9 and then find out it isn't
worth it, hehe. John said there was one thing that doing it this way would
be nice, but I can't remember what that was, lmao!!
>
> <Or some 7075 -T6 End caps and bearing
> holders... and about 4 inches less case Steel.
>
> Okay the 7075 is aluminum right?? is there something special, lighter
than what ADC is using?? I have no idea what a T6 end cap is though?
>
> As to shortening 4" from an 8 well it could happen but both armature and
fields would have to be rewound alot shorter. There's maybe 3/4" that could
be shaved off the housing before hitting coil, and you must allow for the
inner foot of the CE plate to sit inside the housing a tad. Now if you are
talking "wack the housing and let the coils hang out both ends and then make
longer plates, well then you'd just need 2 plates made 8^ ) If you removed
all that housing mass wouldn't you loose some saturation aspect to the
motor?? I've been afraid to remove anymore than it takes to get the case
even. Your thoughts here would be nice??
>
> >And you need to find brushes... that are right for the wet side of the
> hills.
>
> What kind of issues are you having up there?? If you or anyone has a
bad brush send it down and I'll throw it at my brush people and tell them
the voltage and see what they recommend.
>
>
> >Stiff drink time... Move brushes on the Siamease 8.. Funn Right??...
>
> I just spent about a 1/2 an hour staring at the CE plate at Johns site
and getting the holders passed the terminal and a window big enough to swing
a small lever are the two issues.. If you wacked the one leg off the one
window support foot where they have that narrow access hole (leaving just
the bolt hole area) then you would have a bigger window with enough swing to
reverse direction (even if it were a tad on the retarded side). I could
route the wires differently and open the plate a tad and if John got me some
of that really bitchen "Superflex" cable it just might happen, but I fear
not this year.
> Another month and I couldn't pry that motor out of his or Tim's cold
dead fingers, LMAO!
> Just to let you know much of this is on my to do list, but alas I'm a
small new company and lack funds to do what I'd like, so I baby step it and
do what I can, what I need is victims...I mean a fat daddy.. I mean a paton
willing to cough up a buck to try some of this stuff. Maybe I'll start
playing the lotto.
> In reality i'm doing as I said I'd do and that is take small steps and
see where they lead us. If I can quote you here "You don't go after a
record you sneak up on it" I never forgot those words and use them wisely.
The problem is in getting the info and data back. Much of what I've done so
far is still untested.
> It is funny though looking back at even the Siamese 8 and what I'm doing
now and I can see the improvements, but still much to do. It's been a fun
year and I believe some really cool stuff will be coming as a matter of fact
I know it will, wink, wink.
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-torque Electric
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC for low,
low rates.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Electro Automotive [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> No personal experience here, but Jim Ramos at American Battery
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] likes a new one, Discover, by
> Powerstride.
Might you be referring to: <http://www.discover-energy.com/>?
I've got some experience with their EV6A-A and EVL16A-A (T105 and L16
size, respectively) 6V AGMs, but not at EV-type currents yet.
They appear well-made and deliver rated capacity. You *must* observe
their caution against the use of washers between the cables and the
battery terminal if you use the 3/8" studs (the batteries I have have
both 3/8" studs and SAE posts).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
277 is the standard voltage for parking lot lighting fixtures in
commercial buildings.
Pat
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Rudman
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 2:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Charger for 270V input?
Yes you would need a step down.
Even my PFC chargers can't do 277. In fact I don't recomend anything
more
than 250.
277 is not very standard.. at all. It's one phase of 480 phase to
ground. It
takes a special order to get to a transformer for this voltage. It's
normal
enough for the transformer guys, but... you have to ask for it.
480 to 277 is what the 75K charger has for the isolation front end.
I was playing with this stuff last night.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 12:14 PM
Subject: Charger for 270V input?
> Hi all,
>
> On the topic of charging at work, the electrical distribution in the
garage
> where I work is 270V, which is standard I understand for commercial
> distribution. I know at the college I was at I remember hearing all
the
> lighting was at 270V.
>
> Is 270 "close enough" to 240 that a charger rated for 110-240 could
run at
270
> as well? Or would I need a step down transformer like a 240->208? This
would
> bring 270 to around 240.
>
> Erik
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was going to say the same thing...in my experience,
most EE's (that I know) that are car enthusiasts rarely
take the time, attention and due dilligance to plan a
project so carefully and then to take the extra time
to document and record it so that others can benefit
from their work and analysis...
Would have loved to have you as a lab partner back in
the day!
If software ever gets old for you...you ought to consider
consulting on EV conversions...your website speaks for itself!
Joel
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Don, your site is so classic, can't get over it :-)
One day you need to write a book about conversion...
Victor
Don Cameron wrote:
Hi Bill, I consulted a mechanical engineer friend for advice on my boxes.
The new Beetle as 18ga sheet metal. Instead of using angle iron of a
much
heavier gauge, we constructed a hollow beam from 18ga sheet metal. This
became **very** strong, easy to weld to the uni-body and relatively
light.
Take a look at
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_BatteryBoxConstruction.html for a
picture of how it was done.
Don
--- End Message ---
