EV Digest 5303
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Independant Rear Suspension for Twin/Siamese DC Setup
by James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Large AH SLAs available with total height of 8" or less?
by Joel Hacker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Charger for 270V input?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Charger for 270V input?
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Regen Setup (was FW: Large AH SLAs available with total height of 8" or
less?)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Using two controllers to run an AC motor.
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: rust removal
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: my (theoretical) setup
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Seattle Monster Garage Premiere Party
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: my (theoretical) setup
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: rust removal
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Low Priced Conversion Options - IS THAT A LECTRIC LEO> ??
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Public charging- APPROVED (and other stuff)
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: DC Motors for Racing ft.lbs. and hp
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: my (theoretical) setup
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Newbie- Info on Compact Pick-up
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) 24V DC contactors on Ebay from HB Electrical Mfg Co
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Charger for 270V input?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Independant Rear Suspension for Twin/Siamese DC Setup
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Best 8V battery and best place to purchase 18 of them
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Data points. We program the Zilla motor loop to 425 or wide open for serises
mode. That's what I have seen Otmar and Wayland do.
So Even if we let the motors have 340, it's not going to get in the way,
when the amp are that big. The battery Sag pretty much ensures that really
high motor volts can't happen in series mode.
In paralle mode we drop the motor voltage limit to 170. this keeps the
carbon arc search light effect to a Minimum.
1000 amps... what a whimp! I don't think John has used much less than 1500
amps for any real launch...
The argument is how many peak amps in Series... to keep the tires stuck. Too
many amps and you bake the rubber.
Ot's decay to 1/2 peak amps only if foot is to the floor before a S/P event
is not a perfect shift point... I can be better If shifted earlyer... on a
couple of conditions...
Getting any contacts out of the loop is just good practice.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 2:19 PM
Subject: RE: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
> James Massey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Johns' problem is not just the 'how to' of making reverse
> > contactors happen, but when the motors are running in paralell
> > at 1000A+, the motor that (had) the reversing contact set
> > would loaf along, whilst the other took most of the current.
> > Even a few mill-ohms of resistance would cause this.
>
> I think John's concern is with adding *any* additional contacts and
> wires into the motor loop due to their associated losses.
>
> As soon as the motors start spinning, the back EMF is going to make
> their effective resistance great enough to make a few milliohms
> difference in wiring resistance unimportant. At low RPM, where the
> effective motor resistance is lowest, the motors are in series, so the
> current through both motors is forced to be equal anyway. A few
> additional milliohms in series with the motors is simply going to cause
> the series/parallel shift to occur slightly earlier (1V per milliohm
> earlier at 1000A motor loop current).
>
> If a 170V motor limit is enforced in series mode (ie. 170V total,
> assuming the 'Zilla doesn't differentiate between series and parallel
> when enforcing this limit), then the effective motor resistance is about
> 170 milliohms when the current has dropped to 1000A and the shift to
> parallel occurs. This means each motor represents about 85 milliohms,
> so a few milliohms additional resistance in series with one of them
> would result in a few % difference in the current through the two
> motors. If the 'Zilla actually doubles the motor voltage limit in
> series mode to account for the voltage being divided across 2 motors,
> then the effective motor resistance is actually 2x this at the shift
> point.
>
> Look at it this way; Matt's car is running the same controller as
> John's, and a pair of 9" motors, and he is getting *very* respectable
> performance (perhaps even better than John's when you factor in vehicle
> weight) even though he does have a reversing contactor in the motor
> loop.
>
> My concern would be that a reversing contactor relies on current flowing
> though the NC and NO contacts depending on the direction selected, and
> usually NC contacts are rated for less current than the NO set. I would
> think that wiring the reversing contactor so that it must be energised
> for forward "gear" so that the NO contacts carry the heavy race current
> would be a good thing to do.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
having ANY end bell movment under load is asking for Brush flombay.
The Gross movment of the brushes to reverse the motor is going to screw up
the precise loctions that true competition race trim timing requires.
Mark my words....
This is not worth the efforts
Good idea... the execution will suck.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 5:40 PM
Subject: RE: Fast Street Car with Twin DC Motors
> Jeff Shanab [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Man, I gotta get some money to play with. It seems to me that
> > if we could rotate the brush rigging 90 degrees, we would
> > have reverse without any contactors.
>
> Money, schmoney! ;^>
>
> You've got a series motor, just unbolt the comm endbell and rotate it 90
> degrees and then power up the motor with no load and verify if it spins
> forward or reverse.
>
> The only torque trying to rotate the comm endbell is the drag from the
> brushes, so if you can't or don't want to bolt it up 90 degrees rotated,
> just use a couple of big hose clamps around the motor case and endbell
> to secure it with a short length of flat stock.
>
> This still gets complicated for John, or other siamese/dual motor users,
> since both comm endbells would need to be rotated, but it would get rid
> of additional contactors in the high current loop.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:18 PM 3/31/06, you wrote:
For my new car, I am planning to have independant rear suspension, would the
R200V be suitable or is this pushing its limits?
Depends on just what you plan on doing with it. The Nissan R200 (actually
made by Fuji Heavy Industries) is about an 8-inch ring gear (200 mm), can
be had in a range from low 3s to 4.6, and is plenty tough for most
applications. Nissan used it more and more in the '80s and just about
everything they sold here with an IRS had it by the end of that decade.
There are some mixing-and-matching issues with axles, ring gear bolts, and
driveshafts depending on which car you get it from. The 'V' just means it
had a viscous LSD, which you'd want to replace anyway. If the R200 isn't
enough, you can pull out the big gun R230 (9-inch ring gear) found on the
90-96 300ZX twin-turbo (nonturbos had the R200) and the Skyline GT-R.
David Thompson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don,
Do you use regen braking on your gel-cell setup
on your VW bug??? How is it configured to avoid
this 6C recharge trap???
Christopher Zach wrote:
someone explain why it is not recommended to
use gel cells in an ev?
I know of no such rule.
The one thing I would watch out for with gel cells is regen. Hawkers can
eat a 6C regen charge without batting an eyelash. Charging a gel cell at
6C might wind up wrecking it.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is one possible thing that can be done, if the lines feeding the
parking lot lights are overhead, is that have the utility company connect
one more wire from the the center tap of the 480 volt transformers.
Normally these transformers may be three banks connected in a three phase
wye connection. If this is the case, then the secondary of these
transformers are 240/480 volts. There are two 240 volt windings inside the
transformer that are connected in series to have a 480 volt output.
If we connected the three 240/480 transformers in a wye connection, where
one line of each transformer are connected, which we now call the common or
neutral.
We will now read 277 volts from each phase to neutral of each transformer.
This is the normally configuration of how we supplied 277 volts to a device
that is rated for it.
If this is the case, and not a single phase 277 volt transformer, than all
that has to be done is pull in another wire, or suspend another wire that is
center tap to the transformer. You will then have 240 volts.
Sometimes we will tap of one transformer in 240 three phase bank to provide
120/240 or in 480 three phase bank to provide 240/480.
In our parking lot, the lights were 240 delta connected, meaning 240 volt
phase to phase. I notice that there was a overhead triple that was 3
conductor, two insulated wires and a messenger that can be used as a
neutral.
I had the utility company connected up the messenger to the center tap of
the transformer, so it will provide me with 120/240 volts at my charging
station.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sweeney, John P" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 4:11 PM
Subject: RE: Charger for 270V input?
> 277 is the standard voltage for parking lot lighting fixtures in
> commercial buildings.
>
> Pat
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Rich Rudman
> Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 2:34 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Charger for 270V input?
>
> Yes you would need a step down.
> Even my PFC chargers can't do 277. In fact I don't recomend anything
> more
> than 250.
>
> 277 is not very standard.. at all. It's one phase of 480 phase to
> ground. It
> takes a special order to get to a transformer for this voltage. It's
> normal
> enough for the transformer guys, but... you have to ask for it.
>
> 480 to 277 is what the 75K charger has for the isolation front end.
>
> I was playing with this stuff last night.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 12:14 PM
> Subject: Charger for 270V input?
>
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > On the topic of charging at work, the electrical distribution in the
> garage
> > where I work is 270V, which is standard I understand for commercial
> > distribution. I know at the college I was at I remember hearing all
> the
> > lighting was at 270V.
> >
> > Is 270 "close enough" to 240 that a charger rated for 110-240 could
> run at
> 270
> > as well? Or would I need a step down transformer like a 240->208? This
> would
> > bring 270 to around 240.
> >
> > Erik
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not all that uncommon. I worked in a very large office building where the
main service was 480 three phase. All the HVAC, elevators, etc. were 480
three phase and the lighting circuits were 277. They had stepdown
transformers scattered about to provide 120. All the lighting in the
parking lot was 277 as well. Probably would have been easy to get a 277 tap
in the parking lot to charge from, but I never tried. Driving was too much
of a hassle. I rode the train in then took the subway.
Dave
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Charger for 270V input?
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 14:34:04 -0800
Yes you would need a step down.
Even my PFC chargers can't do 277. In fact I don't recomend anything more
than 250.
277 is not very standard.. at all. It's one phase of 480 phase to ground. It
takes a special order to get to a transformer for this voltage. It's normal
enough for the transformer guys, but... you have to ask for it.
480 to 277 is what the 75K charger has for the isolation front end.
I was playing with this stuff last night.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 12:14 PM
Subject: Charger for 270V input?
> Hi all,
>
> On the topic of charging at work, the electrical distribution in the
garage
> where I work is 270V, which is standard I understand for commercial
> distribution. I know at the college I was at I remember hearing all the
> lighting was at 270V.
>
> Is 270 "close enough" to 240 that a charger rated for 110-240 could run
at
270
> as well? Or would I need a step down transformer like a 240->208? This
would
> bring 270 to around 240.
>
> Erik
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Chris, yes I use regen. Right now I have it set up in a simple fashion:
10Amp regen when taking the foot "off throttle" (keep the foot
lightly on the throttle and there is zero regen and zero drive)
20Amp regen when lightly touching the brakes.
Since I use 40Ah batteries, the 20-30Amp regen is nowhere near 6C.
With my regen set up this way I get approx 5-7% energy recapture. I am
considering (if I have time) to set up regen with a potentiometer like
Victors to I can use a lot more regen. I think Victor gets around 10% with
his variable regen, so there is some difference. I am not sure if he sees
as much as 240Amp though.
Even if I did the variable regen, the Siemens controllers are fully
programmable (must be 50 user settable parameters) so I can still limit the
max amount of regen.
I also have the controller set up so I do not take more than 200Amp out of
the battery. I have been told by engineers at East Penn, that this will
help increase their life.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joel Hacker
Sent: March 31, 2006 3:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Large AH SLAs available with total height of 8" or less?
Don,
Do you use regen braking on your gel-cell setup on your VW bug??? How is it
configured to avoid this 6C recharge trap???
Christopher Zach wrote:
>>> someone explain why it is not recommended to use gel cells in an ev?
>>
>>
>> I know of no such rule.
>
> The one thing I would watch out for with gel cells is regen. Hawkers
> can eat a 6C regen charge without batting an eyelash. Charging a gel
> cell at 6C might wind up wrecking it.
>
> Chris
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> Why not use aluminum buss
> bars and wiring? Aluminum is only slightly less conductive, but 1/3rd
> the weight of copper.
Let me quote something out of a book if I may:
"While aluminum wire does save weight, it has a few disadvantages.
For example, it can carry about two-thirds as much current as the same
size copper wire. In addition, when exposed to vibration, aluminum
wire can crystallize and break."
Page 7-53
A&P Technician Airframe textbook
Publisher: Jeppesen Sanderson
http://www.aviationshops.com/store/viewItem.asp?idProduct=3119&type=A&P%20Technician%20Airframe%20textbook
http://www.jeppesen.com/wlcs/application/commercewf?origin=itemsummary.jsp&event=link(details)&wlcs_catalog_item_sku=JS312692&wlcs_catalog_category_id=AT2B&wlcs_document_type=details
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 29 Mar 2006 at 7:15, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> So six controllers? How would you wire that?
Hoist out the six DC controllers and drop in an AC controller. ;-)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 29 Mar 2006 at 9:54, Roland Wiench wrote:
> stainless steel container where
> the container was the cathode
I suggest you read the caution about stainless steel on the cited page :
http://antique-engines.com/stainless-steel-electrodes.htm
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 28 Mar 2006 at 9:36, Roland Wiench wrote:
> Here is some data you could used for your design of your EV. It was derided by
> a engineer back in the 70's when he wrote a paper on the design and
> calculations used on a VW Beetle that he built and tested.
If it was derided by an engineer, who presumably had a reason for expressing
his or her derision, I don't understand why you posted it. Or is this the
design the engineer came up with as an improvement? Perhaps it worked
despite the engineer's concerns? <confused>
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folks
SEVA folks are going to be getting together in a public venue to view the
first airing of Monster Garage on 4/10/06 @ 9pm with Rich Rudman on the
build team.
We would like to invite folks in the area to join us.
Our monthly meeting is normally the second Tuesday of the month. We have
moved the meeting day to Monday 4/10/06 @ 7pm. The one-time meeting location
with be at "Fremont Dock" located at 1102 N 34th Street, Seattle, WA.
Map-
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?formtype=address&addtohistory=&address=1102%20N%2034th%20St&city=Seattle&state=WA&zipcode=98103%2d8902&country=US&geodiff=1
Rich Rudman will be there as will many other SEVA folks.
Cya There!
...
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is a article in a Electric Vehicle magazine, that provided the
calculations in designing a EV. You would have to ask a editor why he would
use it in a EV magazine.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 6:21 PM
Subject: Re: my (theoretical) setup
> On 28 Mar 2006 at 9:36, Roland Wiench wrote:
>
> > Here is some data you could used for your design of your EV. It was
> > derided by
> > a engineer back in the 70's when he wrote a paper on the design and
> > calculations used on a VW Beetle that he built and tested.
>
> If it was derided by an engineer, who presumably had a reason for
> expressing
> his or her derision, I don't understand why you posted it. Or is this the
> design the engineer came up with as an improvement? Perhaps it worked
> despite the engineer's concerns? <confused>
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
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>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The stainless steel container or electros are only using for de-plating, not
for plating. It is a separate tank for cleaning only. The material that is
de-plated from the object coats the stainless tanks, which then you must
clean after you get done de-plating.
The plating is use in a non-conductive containers, such as the glass
containers I used.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 6:21 PM
Subject: Re: rust removal
> On 29 Mar 2006 at 9:54, Roland Wiench wrote:
>
> > stainless steel container where
> > the container was the cathode
>
> I suggest you read the caution about stainless steel on the cited page :
>
> http://antique-engines.com/stainless-steel-electrodes.htm
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
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>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John.. That wouldn't be a resident of Whidbey Island
named Dean Petritch would it ???
If so.... Say HI... I sold him the car.
He tunes pianos for a living, and also is a professional clown.
The Lectric Leopard has been under a tree for 15+ years...
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wednesday, the county garage manager approved me for a permenantly
reserved space right in front of the security booth. The space has a support
column with a 110 v outlet on it. I've been charging there since then.
It's an -almost- ideal situation. The staff all know about me and I've
answered everyone's curious questions but I don't have permission in writing
(because the manager doesn't work at the garage directly) and when I offered
to hang a tag on my cord with his name and explanation on it he asked me not
to citing the fact that he didn't want to draw unnecessary attention from
the other patrons.
I know, I know. It's a little wierd. I haven't been towed yet and I'm
willing to take the risk. At least I have permission and a name and phone
number and no one's tampered with the C-Van all week.
I hope you'll pardon me for disagreeing with the fellow who stated that he'd
never charger anywhere but home. To me, that's like saying you'll never gas
up your car anywhere but in your garage using your own homemade fuel. I
respect your opinion though.
I'm kind of in the "endurance phase" of my EV experiment now. I'm driving
about 30 miles a day in a 25 year old plastic/aluminum EV. I've just
replaced the brushes a few hundred miles ago. My understanding is that
Advance DC motors only need a brush replacement every 80(?)k miles. Is this
true? How long should I expect brushes to last in my old GE 11.67 hp motor?
The originals lasted almost 10k miles. Is this right or should they be
lasting longer. The commutator didn't have any pitts or scoring when I
inspected it. I blew the carbon dust out with air and I figure I'm due to do
it again this weekend.
Also, I've been neglecting to explain my configuration which has led to some
confusion in the past. Although it's an old Comuta Van, the original
Anderson voltmeter was missing so I installed a Curtis. The original
contactor array was replaced with a Curtis 1221B before I bought the
vehicle.
Although the vehicle has been perfectly reliable so far, I'd like to fix
somethings that were simply disconnected or ripped out by the pre-previous
owner. The "emergency stop" button, "hot" motor light and brake failure
warning light are all disconnected. I can figure out the latter 2 but I'd
love some help with the Big, Red Button. There is a gigantic fuse in place
in the pack for protection but I'd like a manual disconnect. The original
"engage" breaker was removed.
Thanks for listening and any ideas are appreciated.
Rich A.
Maryland
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Some thaughts Jim.
We really need to talk this out face to face some time... Lots to learn All
it takes are a few Dozzen trys...
> I think I got a few trys in me lets 8^ )
The 7075-T6 is VERY hard and strong Aluminum , Aircraft grade stuff. This
for the end caps because you will have to support the main motor bearing
under full torque at extreme levels not
designed for... but have to be tolerated.
> Cool sounds like you have some stuff in mind. All we'd need is someone to
weld the legs on and I could machine them down.
The %25 tap is a very good starting point. What has to be done is run the
motor.. and find out how it reacts to weakening. All motors are different.
On the Big Allis Chalmers.. We all don't even know where to start. I bet
it's a stump puller...with very low rpm to volts. And almost no efforts on
the commutation issue. Read Arc like hell at over 120 volts.
> Actually I'm also a bit concerned about it's ability to rev up, but being
an OEM 72 volt rated motor I'm betting she'll take close to the 170 volt limit
of the 8's and 9's. Looking at the winds, turns, and comm bars I think it's
really suited to do great things. Father Times getting close to needing his so
I'm trying to squeeze in the time. I just got a 3rd one of these motor thats
alot cleaner which will ease this for me, 8^ ) Time will tell though huh?? LOL
Point is We have to find out, take some numbers and make some assumptionsonce
we have a clue.
> Ageed
Shortening the case ..to save weight.. first is it worth the effort??? On a
3000 lbs Ev not likeley... on a Rail... evey 10 lbs is worth Miliseconds.
It is worth $1000 of machining and redesign.worht it . for almost not being
able to measure improvments???
You have to play the cost return game.
> Agree again. I couldn't even chuck this 13 inch housing up let alone turn
it. I could see if Kieth could, but I'd have to sub that out and I imagine
it'd be big bucks. Anyone want to buy silver wire or pay high money on exotic
brushes?? So it is a matter of what works for the best buck.
But... these big old tank anchor motors, could take a LOT of weakening to
get more RPMs, and then tighten up the air gaps to bring the torque back.
Lots to be learned.
> I believe my biggest ability is to take the info in your guys head and
attach it to the motor. Anyone who thinks I'm the creator of all these thing
I've done is misinformed. It's by working openly with all you greats that
allows me to do what I do, which I post to the public and is why it also makes
it fun everybody, besides stagnation is death!
Jimmy Ma Boy....just look at John's twin 8s the comm is as black as I have
ever seen. Clearly the brushes are NOT right for Damp humid running at
extreme voltages and rpms.
I think Stock AVDC brushes would be better. There are Bibles full of brush
data... and the reasons for every recipe and flavor.
The brush pack in John's motors is very wrong....Need lots more abrasiveness
to wipe away the Black. The Oxide is way too dark, and this has to be eating
up a lot of potential volts and RPM.
I recomend John Stones the Comm before every outing.. And Scrape the Slots of
black carbon and blow things out.
> Actually I think Johns Comms look really good. Although I agree it may
allow him a slight quicker ET but at the cost of arcing. In fact after I
replaced the back set (even with a really good setting) the back motor arced
for a few runs, correct me if I'm wrong here John? BTW the brushes Johns
running are OEM ADC's and in fact the front side are his OEM brushes and are
now on season 4 ? and they look great with no signs of heat so I'm pretty
satisfied. Now could we get better I'm sure we could but to get any deal you'd
have to have 52 minimum run done so thers some investment.
Dennis Berube is a Whizz at brush compounds... but he only lets me see
crumbs and tidbits of what is needed and what works.
> Well you know I've been reading Dennis' posts for a year now and well I
guess he and I see things differently. I'd rather be a small fish in the world
than a big fish in a pond. There is a whole new breed of people coming into
the legue and old records won't last to long. Not to toot my own horn here but
I believe there is not a record out there that I couldn't take with the right
builder and in fact is kinda one of my personal greedy go to hell for reasons,
LMAO
After Every run his comms look like they just came out of the Box. Really
they look like they are new. John's look like they need service NOW. They have
a perfect machined surface that looks like it has been Black anodized on
aluminum. We gotta find out why and get the right brushes.... That means you
and me Jim.
>You know it's all up to Dennis, I hope I may be so bold to say that he
choices wether to share with the world or keep it till his death and fail to
leave a legacy other than just a record. Now I mean no animosity here and in
fact I'm sure I could learn loads from Dennis. Now some might argue I'd make
profit from this, sure (but not much, believe me) and unless dennis or anyone
is looking to start a motor business why care as the net is better motors for
everyone. Hell if Smoe Electric wants to look at my stuff and duplicate it by
all means. Knock yourself out as it ain't as easy as it looks but my aim is to
help BTW dennis we havn't actually talked but I ain't got nothin but love for
you and all you've done. Anyways Rich as far as hooking up thats a big You bet
and now with weather warming up and longer days well make that happen soon.
I bet a stoning and polish and Comm Scrape is all that is between John and
Tim and 11seconds.
Again be fun to try but not till after maybe during Joliet, but John said
he'd break my fingers if I tried to stone them.
Hey... I don't recomend that we spend a second on moving brushes enough to
reverse the motor. Nope...it's a waste of efforts. We need to move the
brushes very precisely to make power... and let a couple of whimpy
contactors do the Reveser. And get them out of the Big current path for
racing. Or... use a tranny. What a concept.
The tiny starter motor and a ring gear... is old hat.. a couple of folks are
doing that, Dennis is... told me about it months beofore this week's thread.
I don't like in on Street car... On a racer, Hey what ever works.... and
passes Tech. Warning ...NHRA requires a reverse in all cars. Your local
track may not care.... But..
Hey I'm just the motor guy John really needs to look at all the options and
decide his best, in time, money, ECT.
Hey on the Fat daddy.. I can supply some sacraficial parts... and some time
and effort... but this is a Long term thing.
We need to make you a Dyno... So you can break stuff and learn before we
bolt it into out Rigs.
Man that'd be way cool, but the breaking shit you might have to do it breaks
my heart honest to God, lmao!! Seriously we all need some good data. For
instance be nice to know what that snowmobile motor blew up at when the belt
broke. Anyways been good chatting with you I'll call you next week take it off
list 8^ )
Remember nothing but love to all you EVer's, we're all on the same team, at
least I choose to believe so.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates
starting at 1¢/min.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mar 31, 2006, at 5:21 PM, David Roden wrote:
On 28 Mar 2006 at 9:36, Roland Wiench wrote:
Here is some data you could used for your design of your EV. It was
derided by
a engineer back in the 70's when he wrote a paper on the design and
calculations used on a VW Beetle that he built and tested.
If it was derided by an engineer, who presumably had a reason for
expressing
his or her derision, I don't understand why you posted it. Or is this
the
design the engineer came up with as an improvement? Perhaps it worked
despite the engineer's concerns? <confused>
Perhaps Roland meant "derived"?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does the thermal properties come into play at these high amps? Is the
math correct ?
Copper is gonna conduct almost twice the heat and will expand 25% less
than the aluminum. But the copper heats up 3 times faster than aluminum
because the specific heat is 385 vs 900 J/KKG
resistance change
R = R0[ 1 + alpha( T-T0)] .
Copper Alpha = 3.9 x 10^-3
Aluminum Alpha = 3.9 X 10^-3
same amount of change
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/restmp.html#c3
shows a change of .1 ohm to .12925 ohm if temp rises from 25 to 100C ,
.12925 ohms at 2000 amps creates a 258.5V drop ??? 517kw dingdingding,
something wrong here
an increase of .02925 or 58V drop 116kw
Is this right? yes!?, .1ohms is a lot!!
http://www.calfinewire.com/cutable.htm
4/0 is .04901ohms for 1000 feet
so if we have 2 feet of 4/0 we have .00009802 ohms for a voltage drop
of .196 and 392 Watts
this goes to .000126ohms for a .252 voltage drop and 504 Watts at 100C
If this math is correct, it all seems too small to worry about, The
connection resistances are starting to concern me more than the conductors.
So, for thermal reasons make the aluminum bars twice the size as the
copper and they will conduct the same amount of heat away but will keep
their resistance down for 3 times longer.
For electrical reasons the alum is 60% larger cross section than copper.
Probably 60% for thermal also since the surface area will increase for
more cooling.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This should work OK, Greg, on warm days. It won't cut it on cold days,
though, and your batteries won't last a long time, as they will be run to
80% or so every day that you drive it.
I have a '77 Datsun Kingcab with 20 T-105's in it, and I get 26-30 on a
warmish day (75 degrees or more).
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Swager" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:23 PM
Subject: Newbie- Info on Compact Pick-up
> I live in rural area and the roads are flat. The majority of maximum
> speed is 55 mph with 4 curves (25-45 mph). It'll be about 25-30 miles
> roundtrip. I'm planning to use S-10 or Ranger because I need a pick-up,
> not car, for agricultural errands.
>
> My plan is to buy a conversion kit from Electro-Automotive
> (http://www.electroauto.com/), with 9" motor and (24) 6V batteries (most
> likely Trojan). Clutch and manual transmission will be used. I am
> concerning if the pick-up will have enough power for 25-30 miles at
> majority of highway speed. Is that sufficient?
>
> Regards,
> -gs
>
> --
> Greg Swager
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Two contactors with two contacts, this should be
usable as a reversing contactor.
I understand HB Electrical was used in Citycar.
http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ7599826464QQcmdZViewItem
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Erik,
Step-down is certainly the safest and easiest way to go.
If you happen to have a 240V to 36V transformer, with the
secondary able to supply the current that your charger uses
then you can use it to get the smallest (lightest) step-down.
This is because you only need to affect the 15% that you
step down, not the 85% voltage that remains.
For example if you have a 2.4 kW charger, drawing 10A from
240V then the transformer setup with 240V and 36V in series
to connect to the 277V would see 8.7 A running from the 277V
to the 240V tap through the 36V winding, where it would meet
the 1.3 Amp from the 240V winding to give your the 10 Amp
for the charger.
This means that your transformer will only need to be slightly
over 300VA to step down the voltage for your 2.4 kW charger.
A transformer that has a secondary of 36V 9A will be enough.
The question whether your charger can take 277V depends on
how it is designed and how stable the power in your garage is
and you certainly are close to the limit, no matter what.
Usually power electronics starts with a AC => DC conversion stage.
High power devices need to have "power factor correction" which
means that the current must be controlled to follow the voltage.
Common PFC (Power Factor Correction) circuits take anything between
110 (or as low as 90v) and 240V AC and boost it up to 400V DC.
When you check the peak voltage at 277V AC you see that the peak
(quare root of 2 times the voltage of 277 = 392V) is very close to
the desired 400V output of the PCF.
Since grid power is not perfect, you should expect at least 10%
variation of the voltage, which can bring the peak voltage way over
this target at 430V.
This means that the PFC can no longer control the output, as the
incoming voltage will force the recifier diode open and flow into
the output capacitor at an uncontrolled current, to fill this
capacitor up to 430V.
The result is sharp peaks of many times the rated current, causing
a great deal more heat than specified at normal PCF operation.
They likely trip your breaker early (which is good) or destroy
your semiconductors or other components in the charger (bad).
Charging at 277V with a 240V charger sounds to me too much alike
playing Russian Roulette.... Don't do it if you like your charger.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 12:15 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Charger for 270V input?
Hi all,
On the topic of charging at work, the electrical distribution in the garage
where I work is 270V, which is standard I understand for commercial
distribution. I know at the college I was at I remember hearing all the
lighting was at 270V.
Is 270 "close enough" to 240 that a charger rated for 110-240 could run at
270
as well? Or would I need a step down transformer like a 240->208? This would
bring 270 to around 240.
Erik
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you don't plan on drag racing using slicks, this can handle plenty
of power when using street tires:
http://parts.factoryfive.com/newcatalog/chassis/pictures/irs.jpg
http://parts.factoryfive.com/newcatalog/chassis/irs.htm
http://www.breezeautomotive.com/home.php?cat_id=36
http://www.fortesparts.com/Modules.cfm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:04 AM 3/31/2006, you wrote:
What is the best 8V battery out there? I believe Trojan
makes three capacities and US Battery makes two capacities.
Of course I lean toward the higher capacities, any reason
not to? With what I know now I would go with the highest
capacity US battery with the small L terminals. Comments??
Also any reason not to go with the small L terminals?
Go with the 1" square L terminals, especially with a high current
vehicle, to get you lots of good contact area.
Where is the best deal to be had? Go local, or is there
someone who will ship them and give a better price? And
what has current pricing for 8V in bulk of 18 been
recently?
Thanks for any information in advance.
Not sure where you are. Jim Ramos at American Battery in Hayward at
510-259-1150 is the best deal in the SF Bay area for local
delivery. He is very knowledgeable, has worked with lots of
conversions, and will get you the right stuff at a good price. If
you are not in this area, he can arrange delivery anywhere in the country.
Mike Brown
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
