EV Digest 5319
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Which battery terminals would be at least satisfactory in my specific
application?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Low efficiency with light loads
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: because it makes sense to do so
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Multi charger.
by "John Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Battery Pack Heating
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Battery Pack Heating
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Testing for Isolation
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Dual Motors to FWD axles - Anyone done it ??
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: bridge rectifier, motors an' stuff
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Multi charger.
by "Chris Brune" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Battery Pack Heating
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Testing for Isolation
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Testing for Isolation
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Dual Motors to FWD axles - Anyone done it ??
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Taking the plunge (buying my first EV)
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Taking the plunge (buying my first EV)
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Low efficiency with light loads
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Poor-Boy'N It
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Multi charger.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) ev list
by robert phelps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Battery Pack Heating
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Poor-Boy'N It / lawn mower
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Japanese EV-Bike
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Multi charger.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
25) Re: bridge rectifier, motors an' stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Freidberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: April 4, 2006 12:28 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Which battery terminals would be at least
> satisfactory in my specific application?
>
>
> For my Geo EV I plan to install 11-12 group 31s on their
> sides because of battery box height restrictions. 3 or 4 will
> be in the lower level of the main battery box and thus not
> accessible because of several batteries positioned above them
> in the upper level.
>
> -battery box interior walls are electrically conductive steel.
>
> -the positve and negative cables in the main battery box
> that the battery pack will connect up to have automotive post
> clamps on their ends. Should I leave these as they are? Are
> there adapters that could interface between them and the
> pack? (I already sort of improvised in order to connect up my
> temporary packs of Yuasas and Hawkers)
Concorde makes adapters to either automotive posts or "L"/flag posts
from the threaded insert ("T" type posts):
<http://www.concordebattery.com/chair_main.php>
Scroll down to the bottom of the page. Concorde's threaded insert
terminals/posts come accepting either 6mm or 8mm bolts, but they only
offer one style of adapters, so either the adpaters fit either, or they
may only fit the more common (for Concorde) 8mm threaded terminals.
Best to check with Concorde before buying.
If you search around, you may find others, though adapters to/from the
GM-style side terminals (3/8-18 threaded) are far more common.
Before buying any adapters, you might want to ask yourself what type of
batteries you expect to install "for real", and only bother with
adapters if the real batteries will have automotive posts to mate with
your existing cables. If the real batteries will (likely) have either
threaded insert or flag terminals, then it is probably more sensible
(and cheaper) to change the cable ends to appropriate lugs now.
> -a box of cabling and interconnects that was donated and
> which I'd like to use consists of 2 AWG and 4 AWG sizes.
These are inadequate for most road going EVs of this voltage; at the
132-144V pack range, you are likely to be drawing a few hundred to
several hundred amps very frequently to continuously (e.g. at speed you
may be cruising at 100A or more, and routinely drawing 400-500A+ on
acceleration or hills). You really want cables of about 2/0; if you had
free 1/0 cables you might try them, but 2ga and 4ga are, I think, just
asking for trouble (especially if these are some "premade" battery
cables, not specifically made for EV use).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Robert,
> Coming back from the shopping center the acceleration periods
> were shorter, used 418 Whrs and to the motor was 238.67 Whrs.
When you mentioned at the Sydney AEVA meet that the controller efficiency was
lower on the way back, I didn't realise you meant this low.
57% efficiency suggests measurement error. You're unlikely to have burnt up
nearly as much energy in the controller as it took to move your vehicle over
the test distance.
Or looking at it another way -- if you were using water to cool your
controller, the inefficiency loss the figures suggest would be enough energy to
bring around 2 litres of room temp. water to the boil, in just this short trip.
Want another pair of eyes to double check?
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A lot of what wallmart does is almost a consignment store.
You the manufacture almost rent shelf space, If it doesn't move, you get
to buy it out the front register on your way out to let someone else
have your shelf space.
ps home depot, lowes, etc too
So if we can come with a salable product it is up to us ?
But this does give me a better idea, what about at a costco?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Rich Rudman"
> Now I am sure somebody is going to tell me they have
> thousands of miles on a AGM pack with modular chargers.
> There is only one that I know of.. John Bryan??? You still out there??
> But... this sure is the exception to the rule.
Hello Rich and All,
I'll start off by saying that I have a huge amount of respect for
Rich and all that he's doing with charging systems. As far as the Ghia
is concerned, it's still running like a champ, the batteries will soon
be twelve years old. The range and peak power have dropped, but
it can probably still manage 20 miles. I keep hoping Rich will make some
"additive regs" (charging regs) to go with his PFC series. Nothing
fancy, like 2 amps or so.
> I still think the Modular chargers have a weak point and that is the Failure
> rate gets multiplied by the number of units running.
> We tried this on this list.. and had some pretty serious failures...
In that case, it was the chargers, not the concept itself. The chargers
were defective, but they still managed to ruin the reputation of multiple
chargers forever. Well, maybe just until our current generation has died off.
Lmao! These chargers would put in 1 Ah, then overheat, drop the
current until it triggered the "finished" current level and shut off. This all
happened before the external surfaces even got hot. Since they were
solidly potted, nothing could be done to correct it. The whole thing was
a bit crazy, since they were so powerful that you couldn't plug very many
of them into a single outlet. We were trying to do the whole charging job
with just the individual chargers. Needing to come up with something to
get my EV on the road soon, I decided to go with low powered
individual chargers along with a series charger for bulk and finish.
Lee said
> I'm thinking the same thing. EV chargers will evolve toward a big, dumb,
> cheap, bulk charger; and a bunch of individual low-power modules that
> will attend to each battery.
That's what the Ghia has in it.. I'm rarely in a hurry to charge, so
I usually just use the individual chargers for all of the charging, except for
a brief high voltage finish/eq. The number of hours I have racked up on those
individual chargers must be staggering. I often leave them on for days at a
time.
Dennis (Killowatt) Berube said
> Rich do not forget I also use modular chargers,Thats why I got 375 cycles on
> the Inspira battery while others were getting 10-20 cycles. Dennis Berube
Dennis can be a bit secretive at times, but little comments I've seen him
make
here and there over the years has given me the impression that him and I are
probably on the same page battery wise.
....John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I need suggestions for a heating system for my pack. I would like to
use the orange silicone sheets, but they are hard to find in any length
and are pricey. There are these home gutter or pipe heating cables that
look good. They are around 5 watts per foot in 120vac or 240vac
versions.
The only car I know that has a heated pack runs about 500-600 watts for
the 1200lb pack. So that's about 2 lbs per watt. It takes most of 25
hours to get the pack to the 30c-40c range. The system can hold it
there with ease. It's usually heating during charging, but can be
turned on any time.
So I need ideas for how to heat this pack, and where to get the
materials.
Thanks,
Mike
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I use 7 battery warmers. They are very similar to in floor radiant heaters,
but (suprisingly) much cheaper. Not sure what area of the country you live
in, but they may be able to be purchased off the shelf if you live in
Montana, or ordered through a auto supplier if you live in Southern
California.
I have read that the optimal temp for PbA is 25 deg C (Buchman Battery
University and other). 30-40 deg C it too high. Best to investigate this
before setting the thermostat.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: April 4, 2006 9:07 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Battery Pack Heating
I need suggestions for a heating system for my pack. I would like to use the
orange silicone sheets, but they are hard to find in any length and are
pricey. There are these home gutter or pipe heating cables that look good.
They are around 5 watts per foot in 120vac or 240vac versions.
The only car I know that has a heated pack runs about 500-600 watts for the
1200lb pack. So that's about 2 lbs per watt. It takes most of 25 hours to
get the pack to the 30c-40c range. The system can hold it there with ease.
It's usually heating during charging, but can be turned on any time.
So I need ideas for how to heat this pack, and where to get the materials.
Thanks,
Mike
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
I did what I think you recommended, but I'm not sure what it's telling me.
The charger was neither plugged into the wall nor attached to the batteries.
I put the multimeter on the Ohms setting, touched one lead to the AC ground
and the other lead to one of the DC outputs. The meter immediately showed a
couple megaohms, then within three seconds, climbed to 30 megaohms, then
when to 0L.
Does this mean that the AC and DC are actually connected, maybe through a
capacitor that's charging, and thus not isolated?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 5:16 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Testing for Isolation
Bill Dennis wrote:
> I've got three chargers, which I'm going to attach to each 1/3 of my
> pack for charging. The chargers claim to be switchmode devices, and
> isolated. They take 220V AC for input. What's the best way to test
> to make sure that they truly are isolated before I connect them to
> my batteries:
The simplest way is just to use your multimeter to check for resistance
between each output and ground, and betwen the AC input and output. Try
reversing the + and - probes too, in case there's a diode.
Next would be to run it, and measure the voltage between ground and each
output wire. Should be about zero volts, with the meter measuring either
AC or DC.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I asked the question in regards to a low speed vehicle (45mph)
One owner had stated ...
"The original transaxle was an automatic, so I did not use it. In
place of the transaxle, I installed a differential gearbox with a 1"
input shaft, which was coupled to the Etek. The differential output
shafts were coupled to adapters to accept the CV shafts. The
differential gear ratio was 4:1 and the tires were 175/80R13. Top
speed was about 53 MPH on a level road with a full charge. We only
needed a 45 MPH maximum top speed and a 30 mile round trip range."
So, that was with an ETEK and an Alltrax 7245 at 48 volts pushing a
lightened Dodge Aries.
So I wondered if one could use 2 ETEKs or maybe better 2 brushless
Marselectric (etek clone) http://tinyurl.com/mjvem motors
for better performance. And could the differential gearbox be
eliminated ?? and one motor running each front wheel say on a geo
metro ??
Could one controller be sed ??
Comments ???
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Anyone know of a dual motor setup running directly to the FWD
axles ??
>
> Maybe a single motor - dual shaft- direct to FWD axles ?
>
> Links ?? Issues ??
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
What is this place? Do they have other supplies? There aren't many good
suppliers around here, I'm
always looking for more. I'm going to call that motor shop you mentioned too. I
have an ADC 6.7 that needs some field repair. (Sorry Jim H., but if I can find
a good local shop, I'd rather not have to ship it all the way cross country.)
Dave Cover
Hey Dave, All
First off I don't want anyone feeling awkward about sending motors anywhere
or posting about it at all. I believe geography plays a huge part in where one
obtains a motor as well as getting it repaired. With that said I do have a
couple of smaller motors down in Florida and the freight wasn't that bad 8^ )
Secondly I'd like to apologize as I went through my emails and searched you
there and realize I didn't follow through with your progress. My purpose here
at the list is to be kind of a resident motor guy where I can offer advise as
best I can. Looking back at older emails allowed me a look at how much I've
learned here at the EVDL over the last 10 months. So if I could back up to
your first email I'd say hey, grab a pic and send it to me so I can advise as
to if in your case the damage is cosmetic or catastrophic or somewhere in
between.
I'd like to say that this last year or so since meeting Wayland have quite
frankly been a little nuts for me. I'd like to let people know that if you
don't get a reply or need more info to kick me in the butt (my wife tells me I
could use a good one). I like to think I spent 24 years working on forklift
motors to prep me for you guys, lmao!?! Anyways I have much to learn and God
knows a lot of gearing up to do before I'm happy. I almost wish I had a crystal
ball to see what really lies ahead, but then that would ruin the journey now
wouldn't it.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! MessengerÂ’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well you asked for it.... Currently about 3900 miles on an AGM pack of
Orbitals. 144V system with 12 Soneil 5 amp chargers. No failures of the
chargers. This is the 2nd battery pack using these chargers, the first was
Optimas.
The easy to see LEDs on the chargers are a good indicator that they are
working properly. It would be better if the chargers communicated with a
display node though.
I do feel that Soneil does not use an ideal charge algrorithm. I have
recently modified mine to do a CC/CV charge algrorithm. I feel this gives
me a better indication of when the batteries are actually charged.
I kind of like the idea of having individual chargers fed with a DC voltage.
This would eliminate some of the larger bulkier parts of a typical switching
power supply. A single separate unit could take care of the AC to DC
conversion. For example one could route 48V around to each of the
individual battery chargers.
Regards,
Chris Brune
Tigard, OR
> Now I am sure somebody is going to tell me they have thousands of miles on
a
> AGM pack with modular chargers. There is only one that I know of.. John
> Bryan??? You still out there??
> But... this sure is the exception to the rule.
>
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
I'm using thin stick-on heaters that Metric Mind used to carry. I have
one on the bottom of each battery, 26 in all. The heaters are rated
for 12v/36w each, but I run them in 13 sets of two heaters in series,
so they're putting out about 9 watts each. My heater controller is set
for about 78 degrees F (about 26 C), with the temperature sensor on the
bottom of the middle battery in each box. The boxes are insulated on
the bottom with rigid foam wall insulation (about 1/2" thick) and on all
sides and the top with 1/2" expanded polyethylene.
It takes a couple of days for the batteries to come up to temp, but I
leave the heater controllers on all the time.
Dave Cloud uses 'garden bed heater wire'. You can buy these in pre-built
lengths with temperature sensor. Just plug them into a standard 120vac
outlet. You can put them under your batteries by cutting channels into
sheets of insulation that the batteries rest on.
Al Godfrey in Vancouver, BC uses battery heating blankets from JC Whitney.
These are interesting because they also have insulation.
I think you should lower your temperature target. 40C is too hot.
Ralph
Mike Phillips writes:
>
> I need suggestions for a heating system for my pack. I would like to
> use the orange silicone sheets, but they are hard to find in any length
> and are pricey. There are these home gutter or pipe heating cables that
> look good. They are around 5 watts per foot in 120vac or 240vac
> versions.
>
> The only car I know that has a heated pack runs about 500-600 watts for
> the 1200lb pack. So that's about 2 lbs per watt. It takes most of 25
> hours to get the pack to the 30c-40c range. The system can hold it
> there with ease. It's usually heating during charging, but can be
> turned on any time.
>
> So I need ideas for how to heat this pack, and where to get the
> materials.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> Here's to the crazy ones.
> The misfits.
> The rebels.
> The troublemakers.
> The round pegs in the square holes.
> The ones who see things differently
> The ones that change the world!!
>
> www.RotorDesign.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee, you've suggested to check if the inverter reacts on the
leakage by connection pack positive to the ground via something
providing more than 20mA current and see if inverter shuts down.
Thinking of it, I don't understand what external battery connection
(leakage) to the ground outside inverter has to do with inverter,
e.g. how does the inverter know if what I connect to the pack
is >20mA parasitic leakage or, say, my own little DC-DC
converter working off the pack and unrelated to inverter function?
I know I can connect either pack neg or pos to the chassy,
inverter is fine so the battery floats. There is built in
I think 400k resistor between pack negative and inverter case,
so the pack does not float away or accumulate static charge,
but this is about it.
Could you please elaborate on the way you suggested to check for
leakage?
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee, you've suggested to check if the inverter reacts on the
leakage by connection pack positive to the ground via something
providing more than 20mA current and see if inverter shuts down.
Thinking of it, I don't understand what external battery connection
(leakage) to the ground outside inverter has to do with inverter,
e.g. how does the inverter know if what I connect to the pack
is >20mA parasitic leakage or, say, my own little DC-DC
converter working off the pack and unrelated to inverter function?
I know I can connect either pack neg or pos to the chassy,
inverter is fine since the battery floats vs chassy. There is built in
I think ~400k resistor between pack negative and inverter case,
so the pack does not float away too far or accumulate static charge,
but this is about it.
Could you please elaborate on the way you suggested to check for
leakage?
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You need to consider a number of things:
1. You must drive both wheels, not just one side
2. if you use a single motor, you must use a differential (so going around
a corner the inside wheel will drive slower than the outside)
3. if you use two motors (one for each wheel), you will not need a
differential
4. you must have some kind of gear reduction (e.g. 4:1 or 5:1) or else the
motor will not be able to generate enough torque
Keep in mind that common rear ends are a combination of a differential and a
gear reduction.
In the example you cited, the person used a single motor with a
differential **and** gear reduction. You can use two motors without a
differential, but you will still need gear reduction. If they had two
motors, and wanted to drop top speed from 53mph to 45mph, they would still
need gear reduction of some sort.
Looking at the Etek (from evparts.com) it runs at 3000RPM. If you ran with
**no** gear reduction and 175/R13 tires, you would be going 215mph!!
However, the Etek does not have the torque nor the power to make this
happen. If you ran with a gear reduction of 4.8:1 you would get a speed of
45mph at 3000rpm. Yet you must consider: are these motors powerful enough
to move a geo metro at 45mph? Up hills? Against wind? Accelerating
"quickly" from a stop?
Maybe, as a guide, look at what others are using for motors in Geo Metros
(Solectria, ElectroAuto, CanEv) this will give you a good idea of the amount
of torque and power you will need from two etek motors. Search their web
sites, search the archives.
So what is your project? A geo metro conversion? Do you have a donor car
yet?
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of jmygann
Sent: April 4, 2006 9:28 PM
To: jmygann
Subject: Re: Dual Motors to FWD axles - Anyone done it ??
I asked the question in regards to a low speed vehicle (45mph)
One owner had stated ...
"The original transaxle was an automatic, so I did not use it. In place
of the transaxle, I installed a differential gearbox with a 1"
input shaft, which was coupled to the Etek. The differential output shafts
were coupled to adapters to accept the CV shafts. The differential gear
ratio was 4:1 and the tires were 175/80R13. Top speed was about 53 MPH on a
level road with a full charge. We only needed a 45 MPH maximum top speed and
a 30 mile round trip range."
So, that was with an ETEK and an Alltrax 7245 at 48 volts pushing a
lightened Dodge Aries.
So I wondered if one could use 2 ETEKs or maybe better 2 brushless
Marselectric (etek clone) http://tinyurl.com/mjvem motors for better
performance. And could the differential gearbox be eliminated ?? and one
motor running each front wheel say on a geo metro ??
Could one controller be sed ??
Comments ???
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Anyone know of a dual motor setup running directly to the FWD
axles ??
>
> Maybe a single motor - dual shaft- direct to FWD axles ?
>
> Links ?? Issues ??
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
<<<After you been driving you EV for the next 30 to 50 years, someone will
still ask you about not having to buy gasoline for over a month, week, year
or decades. I think I still have some of that 33 cent gas in one of my
cars.
Roland>>>
What is the shelf life on gasoline before it's bad for the engine?
Wow, the answer seems to vary drastically depending on who you ask...
The gas companies like to say "about a year in typical storage".
The old-timers around these hot rod friendly parts all basically say
"depends on how full the tank is, and how old the gas is". I guess all
that fancy anti-pollution stuff deteriorates faster (?), or so the
urban myth seems to go.
How much moisture and heat the gas was exposed to seems to be the one
factor that you can nail down with scientific reports. It doesn't like
either one, plain and simple. So if the tank was almost empty, I'd
suggest tossing it.
On a personal note, when I bought my 'ol Datsun that had been sitting
for 4 (?) years or so - the gas cap had a good seal, the fuel and
breather lines where crimped closed in the engine bay, and tank was
almost full. No smell of gas vapor anywhere. Upon draining the tank and
getting a whiff of what *did not* smell like good gasoline (I've had
plenty spilled on me over the years), I dipped a rag in it and could
barely get the darn thing to light for even a second.
Better safe then sorry. The answer depends on how much you like that old
ICE...
~ peanut gallery ~
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Apr 4, 2006, at 11:54 AM, Roland Wiench wrote:
I think I still have some of that 33 cent gas in one of my
cars.
You mean "varnish", right? <G>
(sorry, I don't remember 33 cent gas)
Paul G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HI Clauddio,
Definately right.
I am going to data log again going to Tanya's house. To see if the
controller is efficienct during the light current draws.
I wonder what could have happened? I hate taking measurements. too tedious.
Cheers
From: "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: RE: Low efficiency with light loads
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 12:19:08 +1000
Hi Robert,
> Coming back from the shopping center the acceleration periods
> were shorter, used 418 Whrs and to the motor was 238.67 Whrs.
When you mentioned at the Sydney AEVA meet that the controller efficiency
was lower on the way back, I didn't realise you meant this low.
57% efficiency suggests measurement error. You're unlikely to have burnt up
nearly as much energy in the controller as it took to move your vehicle
over the test distance.
Or looking at it another way -- if you were using water to cool your
controller, the inefficiency loss the figures suggest would be enough
energy to bring around 2 litres of room temp. water to the boil, in just
this short trip.
Want another pair of eyes to double check?
Cheers,
Claudio
_________________________________________________________________
New year, new job – there's more than 100,00 jobs at SEEK
http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Eseek%2Ecom%2Eau&_t=752315885&_r=Jan05_tagline&_m=EXT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You may want to visit the Elec-Trak club site.
Lot of information and used tractors for sale.
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
http://www.elec-trak.org/
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 4:08 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Poor-Boy'N It
Wayne wrote:
> As a rank Newbie, I'm hoping to give myself a little OJT by
> building/converting a riding lawn mower to electric... cost is an
> significant factor.
> I'll most likely use an old Murry/Sears junked rider, 36" or something
> along those lines.
Is this a "garden tractor" type which can handle significant weight, pull
trailers, push plows, etc? That's what you want.
Or is it a lightweight riding lawn mower? These are generally too flimsy,
and can't carry enough battery weight to bother with.
> I'd like to use standard automotive batteries but if they won't do the
> job, I'll spring for a set of more serious batteries.
Don't waste your time with automotive batteries unless they are literally
free. They won't last more than a few dozen charge/discharge cycles even if
brand new.
6v golf cart batteries are likely to be your cheapest/best choice. See how
many you can fit on the tractor. 4 to 6 will be enough to mow for an hour or
so.
> What would be a good, cheap drive motor and (pair of) blade motors?
> The operative adjective being "cheap."
The 24v 200amp aircraft generator that someone just mentioned on the list
would be fine. It's actually more power than you really need.
A friend and I converted an old Wheel Horse garden tractor into an EV.
We used a 1.5 HP 24v DC motor from ABC Electronics that cost $50. It was
more than enough power to match the original 8 HP gasoline engine. We used a
separate 24v 3/4 HP motor to drive the mower deck, which eliminated the old
belt-drive setup.
Actually, pulling reel mowers takes far less energy. No extra motors needed.
> What would be the minimum speed regulating device?
None! Just an on/off switch. "Shift" by pressing the clutch (loosen the
drive belt), shift into another gear, and release the clutch. This is how
the very successful GE Elec-Trak electric garden tractors worked.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 4/4/06 8:28:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<<
> I'm thinking the same thing. EV chargers will evolve toward a big, dumb,
> cheap, bulk charger; and a bunch of individual low-power modules that
> will attend to each battery.
That's what the Ghia has in it.. I'm rarely in a hurry to charge, so
I usually just use the individual chargers for all of the charging, except
for
a brief high voltage finish/eq. The number of hours I have racked up on those
individual chargers must be staggering. I often leave them on for days at a
time.
Dennis (Killowatt) Berube said
> Rich do not forget I also use modular chargers,Thats why I got 375 cycles
on
> the Inspira battery while others were getting 10-20 cycles. Dennis Berube
Dennis can be a bit secretive at times, but little comments I've seen
him make
here and there over the years has given me the impression that him and I are
probably on the same page battery wise.
....John >>
John we both have the same book and we are on the same page and to be a
little less secertive on this subject I use a modified Miller pipe pro 17000
watt
welder generator to bulk charge at the track to 80% after each run in about 3-4
minutes then at home apply a deltran multicharger with a 405-0073-1
pcbd.after the battery temp has been brought down below 80F on all 31
batteries.This
multi has all the blinking leds so you do know if there is a problem ahead of
time.I leave this on week after week.I estimate 43000 hours at this point with
1
failure a chip fell out of its socket.Solution a dab of silcone on each
chip/socket.I also turned up each pot to get a 13.65 latched on each battery in
float mode.Race day sees 15.2 /per battery for 5 minutes after a slight pack
discharge on my genset to start off the day. Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Please remove me from the ev list asap.
Thanks
Bob Phelps
---------------------------------
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mike,
At one time, I used that gutter tape. Every place that had a 90 degree bend
around the battery, there would be a burnt spot at the bend. These cable
are design to work in a temperature range of 30 to 35 degrees.
Do not used the round cable that has the stainless steel cover over the
water pipe heater cable. This will cause a conductive path which may be
cause by battery venting.
Some of the same burnt marks show up with the water pipe heating cable, the
round type when I ran the heater cable temperature above 50 degrees. They
are also design to work in the 30 to 35 degrees.
The next battery heating method I used was the KAT's battery blanket heater,
which you wrap around the battery. Instead of wrapping around 30 batteries.
I only use 4 of these blankets which are about 80 watts each, install
between the wall of the battery box and the battery pack which surrounds the
pack. You can get these battery blankets from any auto parts store that sell
engine heaters.
Today, I don't used any internal battery heating because I do not park my EV
outside more than a hour now. I live in a country that the temperature range
can be from 40 below to 110 F above. My battery boxes are insulated to more
than 25 R-Factor that is install in the cargo bed that is also insulated
with another 10 R-Factor with a 6 inch dead air space around the battery
box.
When I had the EV setting outside at about 8 hours in a ambient temperature
of 0 degrees or less, the batteries would still have a temperature of about
65 F. after they where preheated to 80 degrees with the battery blankets.
The EV is park in my garage which is heated to 72 F. when not used and can
get to 80 F. when in used by just turning on the overhead lights. When I
charge my EV in the winter time inside the garage with the garage doors
shut, there is a battery box exhaust fan that pulls in the 72 to 80 degree
garage air through the battery box, and than I can attach a exhaust hose to
the exhaust port on the EV and run it though a hose port in the garage door
when its that cold outside.
To used the Kats battery blanket, you should have about 1/2 inch space all
around the battery pack. It even works good if the batteries are not in a
enclosed box, but will not retain the heat as long as it would in a
insulated battery box.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 10:06 PM
Subject: Battery Pack Heating
> I need suggestions for a heating system for my pack. I would like to
> use the orange silicone sheets, but they are hard to find in any length
> and are pricey. There are these home gutter or pipe heating cables that
> look good. They are around 5 watts per foot in 120vac or 240vac
> versions.
>
> The only car I know that has a heated pack runs about 500-600 watts for
> the 1200lb pack. So that's about 2 lbs per watt. It takes most of 25
> hours to get the pack to the 30c-40c range. The system can hold it
> there with ease. It's usually heating during charging, but can be
> turned on any time.
>
> So I need ideas for how to heat this pack, and where to get the
> materials.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> Here's to the crazy ones.
> The misfits.
> The rebels.
> The troublemakers.
> The round pegs in the square holes.
> The ones who see things differently
> The ones that change the world!!
>
> www.RotorDesign.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne" > building/converting a riding lawn mower to electric. As
this is an
merely a first attempt to physically climb the learning curve, cost is an
significant factor.
I have a lawn business and converted my mower about 4 months ago ,, I've
probable cut over 400 yards so far , but when summer comes I'll be cutting
about 200 a month.
I'll most likely use an old Murry/Sears junked rider, 36" or something
along those lines. I'll need a "range" of about 1/2 acre that lays, for
the most part, on a fairly gentle slope, say, 7-8% (aprx 5 deg; Tan 5
deg*100) with one fairly steep section about 55-60% (aprx 30 deg) for
30-40 feet.
the slope won't matter much , its the blades the use the most power ,
Another thing to think about is that you don't need enough range to cut the
1/2 acre as you could do 1/2 then charge and then do the other 1/2 , . I
won't even worry about the range ( I did , but after getting it going I
found it didn't realy matter , even if you ended up with just 10 min run
time , it would still work , you just need to set up a fast charger ,)
I'd like to use standard automotive batteries but if they won't do the
job, I'll spring for a set of more serious batteries. How many
batteries/total voltage/type/brand?
This will depend on the motor , and controller ( if you have one ) .
What would be a good, cheap drive motor and (pair of) blade motors? The
operative adjective being "cheap."
I would use one motor to run everthing , boilt it right where the old gas
engine was . a golf cart size motor would do . Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric had some motors that looked good , I was going to buy
one , but never got to it , maybe he still dose , maybe I'll still get one
myself :-) .
What would be the minimum speed regulating device? It would be false
economy for me to spring for sophisticated devices at this point.
could use a contactor controller , I do think you will need somthing here as
the load on the motor will chagne with thickness of grass and if you have
the blades on .
As you can tell by these questions, 1've only my toe dipped in the shallow
end of a very deep learning pool.
I don't know what has been more fun and exciting for me , my electric mower
or my 264v 2k zilla tire smoking pick up .
you can see a video of the mower on the project part of www.grassrootsev.com
their's also a video of my tire smoking truck . now you tell me what looks
like more fun.
Steve Clunn
I appreciate any and all assistance.
Wayne White
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just this small blurb and a photo of a new e-cycle
"Green bike... Japan's motorcycle venture company Axle unveils a
prototype model of the large-sized electric powered motorcycle EV-X7,
equipped with a newly developed high-efficiency and high-powered Sumo
in-wheel motor on the rear wheel, in Tokyo, on Tuesday. Axle comes
with a body measuring 2500 x 720 x 1010mm and weighing 190kgs. Axle
will market the vehicle with the new Sumo motor this year. AFP "
http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/apr52006/gallery.asp?pic=9
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm sorry, but how could it possibly cost several thousand bux to install a
simple 240v line? I installed my own in my garage for less than $50. All you
need is an open breaker lug in the service panel and some wire and a
receptacle. Most people on this list could probably install a breaker on the
panel... of course don't forget to turn off the main breaker before attempting
this. Run the wire in the wall if it is close to your garage, or pop it out of
the bottom of the box and run conduit to the location of your receptacle. Put
in a remodel box or even a surface mount in the garage near your truck and your
in business. The most expensive part is the breaker. If your concerned about
"legal" installation, after you run all the wires, get an electrician to give
it a look before you connect the breaker in the service panel. Most small
business electricians will only want a few bux to come take a look and make
sure it's to code. Of course, they won't take liability for it, but s!
hould at least be able to tell you if you did it right or wrong. By the way,
don't call one of the corporate type of electricians, most won't take the time
for a quick look see. Call a small business guy out of the yellow pages and
offer him a $50 if he'll come by and look after work. At the most, this might
run you $100 for the whole job then.
On the other hand, if you enjoy the walk, more power to ya. ;-) (pun intended)
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 8:24 PM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: Re: Multi charger.
<<< Understand. Why it *might* not make sense at home I explained.
AS far as opportunity, *normally* you'd have someone else's
120V outlet with 20A breaker, so 2.4kW (as long as nothing else
on the same circuit, else even less). How you're going to take
advantage of 20kW charging power of the charger if there is no
opportunity mains available? (*usually* and for *most*...
we've has this discussion before). >>>
I'd love to be able to use a regular 120V outlet for my Ranger, but it uses a
240V-only Avcon - I was quoted several thousand bucks to install a 240V line at
my house, so the only way I can (afford to) charge *is* publicly. The nearest
spot is 1-1/4mi away, so at least I get a good walk out of it, but the bright
yellow Avcon 120V connector (used with the EV+) wasn't a such a great find
after all.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: bridge rectifier, motors an' stuff
> --- Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I just found a source here in CT, up on the
> > Berlin Turnpike shopping maul strip!
>
> Bob
>
> What is this place?
Hi Dave;
In Newington, I think? Up towards your end of the Berlin T'Pike, coming
from Hartford it will be in the Strip Maul on your right, downhill, about
where the Hartford Drivein is on yur left. It's called Cables and
Connecters, or Connecters and Cables, something like that.Don't blink yul
miss it!I wasn't looking for it myself, cought it out of the corner of my
eye and had a bit of room to slip over to the right lane. If ya miss it you
can get back through the parking lots! I did.Was RREALY looking for Vacuum
Village, a old fashioned Vacuum Cleaner repair and sales place, I was
looking for parts for my faithful old Sears Kenmore Vac.The one I kick
around in the garage, vacuum out cars and clean up after home improvement
projects. It has a cloth bag, no Buk- a -bag shit for the damn bags! I got
an interesting tuitorial on vacuum cleaners chatting with the owner. Mine
had the older 2 stage(fan) motor. Threy just don't build them like that
anymore. You can tear the motor down and replace the cute little ball
bearings, I have, when it get's noisy. And, BOY! They do! The older cleaners
were made to EVentually need repair. If it isn't the motor, it's the "Magi
Cords" (Sears Name) They won't roll up on command, like a window shade, or
they just won't pass current, damn cleaner just won't go! I was gunna use
one of these things on the Rabbit. You know, way cool, flick the chord and
it rolls up into the gas filler? Wrong! They are Soooo chintzy. The wire is
about no. 16, gets warm just running the CLEANER!And the brushes that slide
on the little plastic disc inside wear out in normal home cleaning use. Like
EVeryOTHER part of a vacuum it is chintzy crap. Sigh!Chatting EV's and the
Vacuum biz was sorta fun, I left with a rebuilt Kenmore, of my preferred
vintage.The newer ones, also Panasonics, same thing, ase Soooo bad, they
just fall apart as they are ALL plastic. He had a great setup of used
rebuilt metal jobs from years ago, for darn good prices(Shameless Plug
here)But after all vac's ARE electric, albiet not really, vehicles.I said
that I would like a decent battery operated vac, one that might go a half
hour, and then you could slap anothetr battery pak into, but if you didn't
have to fight the damn chord, this isn't like E lawn mowing as you don't
have as much furniture in the yard.With a compact backpack, battery powered
vac, betya could blitz through the house in a half hour, anyhow. Not
knocking over stuff with your clunky canister, or upright! Cleaning could
almost be fun. You Bet , if MEN were the major market for vacuums there
would be some design changes made! I hear you few gal Listers nodding, here.
So In my Perfect World I would be building, among other things decent
battery vacs and Battery Railcars to carry, and be cleaned, by them. Mowers,
E Traks and, oh yeah! Cars, too.
Do they have other supplies?
I bougt a 30 amp DC Ampmeter, a buncha Bridge Rectifyers, Ask the guy, he
is very helpful, knows his shit and WHERE it is! It is sorta like Hatrey
Electronics used to be in New Haven, they were in the ghetto, and there
wasn't much market for components there!They closed YEARS ago, but were
fondly remenbered, guy at Connecters remembered them.But with all the cable
stuff he didn't have the little plug it in, alagater clips that you plug the
little round leads to your cheapo Chi-Com multimeter probes, so you don't
hafta hold the damn things on with, while you do something else. You folks
that solder are OK here, you just use your third or forth hand to hold
things!Hre didn't have those! I was surprised as he had EVerything ELSE I
asked for!
There aren't many good suppliers around here, I'm
I found lottsa useful stuff along the maul strip. I see why folks from
the Gold Coast, shoreline go inland to shop.
Go a bit further south to Deming Ave, on yur right by the CVS or
Wallgreen's Big Box drug store. They all look alike, so ya can't miss it.
That will take ya about a half mile down to RAE Battery. Talk to Roy, there
for your battery needs. He often has used batteries loooking for loving
homes. Now this is an old fashioned BATTERY place,. He can assemble
batteries from parts, solder the posts of your choice, Or re-attach busted
off ones,this guyz an artesian, he can do all sorts of battery work.Tell him
'Hi" that I sentya, and talk batterys with him, he knows about batteries. He
has thousands of pretty batteries all around to admire. Like going to a
candy store as kid!Here is where I got my first set of used T 105's for 400
bux and did 22k on them, before they went to the great scrapyard in the
sky(China)? Celestial Kingdom?
> always looking for more. I'm going to call that motor shop you mentioned
too. I have an ADC 6.7
> that needs some field repair. (Sorry Jim H., but if I can find a good
local shop, I'd rather not
> have to ship it all the way cross country.)
> Nah! Make a Berlin Turnpike goodie run, Bryan(Brian?) At Gilmartin
Electric, is expecting yur call, I gave him a heads up! But when ya need a
racing motor, motors Ship it to Jim Or I'll drop it off on my yearly PDX run
to the races! I did that with a blown out 9 inch ADC last year, dropped it
off in Chicago, picked it, up all done and pretty, on the way back.Jim will
be at Woodburn or the Wayland Juice Bar.Or whereEVer fast motors congregate.
Get newer directions to Gilmartins as I forgot, been awile, but they ARE in
Newington, down by the RR trax, I would give a hoot or too when I passed on
the Springfield shuttle!
Seeya
Bob
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