EV Digest 5521
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Range Extension
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Hubmotor anatomy
by "Mark Fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Range Extension
by "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: ADC 6.7-inch Voltage Limit
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Things I'd like to buy from EV suppliers
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: A NEW (old) one, comments.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Range Extension
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: range extension
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Interesting bit of RAV4 EV trivia if true
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: ADC 6.7-inch Voltage Limit, Comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) For Sale: New MES EV Fluid Water Heater
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Range Extension
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: For Sale: New MES EV Fluid Water Heater
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Hubmotor anatomy
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) "Pictures from an Exposition" PHEV's Invade WA.D.C.
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Range Extension
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: AC vs. DC & Direct Drive
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Limiting Current in DC setup
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Windstar EV Conversion
by "Dave Roekle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Limiting Current in DC setup
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Windstar EV Conversion
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Range Extension
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: range extension
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Solectria S-10 Anti-Lock Brakes
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
25) Re: Windstar EV Conversion
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Reminder: Mind your Letter Capitalization
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Lee,
So, the two options would be to run in deficit (14 kW) or perpetual (20
kW). I'll run with the deficit model.
" The generator needs to supply only 14kw, not 20kw when the batteries are
also being discharged."
Let's assume that the motor and controller are sized such that they are not
running at peak performance for an extended time.
So, would a controller whose continuous output is rated above 350 Amps be
sufficient, if the driver only pulled 200 Amps continuous?
same concept for the motor (don't use the high end of the continuous
rating).
1) How would one control the transfer of 14 kW of power into the motive
power system / batteries? (Alternator, Generator, or Electronics)
Even a system such as the PFC-50 would only be 7 kW. Do any of you EV
enthusiasts use range extension (besides the 10 mph one mentioned earlier)?
What is your setup?
"A small car engine would probably be the cleanest, quietest solution. A
Prius engine would be nice, but is pretty complicated and likely to be
expensive. "
Thanks, Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All:
I am trying to understand the behavior of my brushed PM hubmotor. I have TWO
"sister" hub motors, of 700W nominal capacity.
When I got them, one ran smoothly, while the other emitted a pronounced
clunk at higher speeds.
I tore down the clunking one, and found three of the ten magnets on the
rotor were unglued. I re-glued them with JBWeld, trying to maintain the
original polarity.
When the motor was reassembled, I found that it clunked in a different way!
Now, there is a "buzz" at high speeds, which resolves as a "magnetic pulse"
when the rotor is turned by hand. Under power, there is no buzz.
I opened the hubmotor again. (Having the tapped holes for jack screws made
it a simple process.) The bearings are smooth as silk. I couldn't find
anything that was still loose. With the rotor-side cover off, there was a
ratcheting of once per field piece as the rotor was turned.
One thought I had was that I might have reversed the polarity of one of the
three rotor magnets I re-glued. I went around the rotor holding a speaker
magnet, and there was a regular alternation of polarity of all ten magnets.
I've seen high-power PM motors (such as in the fuel-cell electric aircraft
from Embry-Riddle) and they typically have a similar "stepping motor" feel
as they are turned by hand. The odd thing is that the sister motor turns
smoothly. I don't really want to crack the case of the quiet one just to
diagnose the noisy one. Power of each seems similar, and current draw is
similar.
Any other ideas? Who would have more insight on this?
Should the rotor field poles have a magnetic field when not powered up? If
not, should I de-gauss the rotor? If so, how?
Mark
PS: I got to see one of Jim Husted's motors at the EVADC meeting. Now
there's some "big iron"! I'm trying to get Chip to write up his adventures
bringing it through the US airport system...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ben, is your 200 mile range one way or round trip? If one way is 100 miles
and you can charge at that point, the cost of simply adding more batteries
(or better batteries) might be competitive with the 14kW and 20Kw generator
options below.
Peri Hartman
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, 24 May, 2006 06:46
Subject: Re: Range Extension
Thanks Lee,
So, the two options would be to run in deficit (14 kW) or perpetual (20
kW). I'll run with the deficit model.
" The generator needs to supply only 14kw, not 20kw when the batteries are
also being discharged."
Let's assume that the motor and controller are sized such that they are
not
running at peak performance for an extended time.
So, would a controller whose continuous output is rated above 350 Amps be
sufficient, if the driver only pulled 200 Amps continuous?
same concept for the motor (don't use the high end of the continuous
rating).
1) How would one control the transfer of 14 kW of power into the motive
power system / batteries? (Alternator, Generator, or Electronics)
Even a system such as the PFC-50 would only be 7 kW. Do any of you EV
enthusiasts use range extension (besides the 10 mph one mentioned
earlier)?
What is your setup?
"A small car engine would probably be the cleanest, quietest solution. A
Prius engine would be nice, but is pretty complicated and likely to be
expensive. "
Thanks, Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, Bob. I don't know about the bars yet. Vehicle weight will be
around 1800 lbs. I was hoping that running at 96V would be okay, and from
your reply, it sounds like that wouldn't be a problem. Still in the
planning stages.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Electric Man
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 7:44 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: ADC 6.7-inch Voltage Limit
Bill,
Jr. dragsters run this motor at up to 144V, and I have used it at 120V with
reasonable success. Do you know how many bars in the commutator? How heavy
is the vehicle? Controller current limit?
I would advance the timing to bout 10 degrees for reduced brush arcing.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 11:15 AM
Subject: ADC 6.7-inch Voltage Limit
> I know that folks often run the ADC motors above their voltage rating.
> Anyone know what the max safe voltage to push the ADC 6.7-inch, 72V motor
> is?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Michaela,
I find it is best to stay with standard auto parts and components, that you
can purchase from any auto parts store. If you have to replace any one of
these components, than you can replace it from any one of the auto parts
store.
I used a large aluminum frame that duplicates the front of a engine of your
choice, that is use to mount all the accessories. It is then run by a
V-belt or serpentine belt system that is either run by the main motor pilot
shaft and/or by a separated DC motor.
In during my last conversion, I used all the accessories off the engine I
remove from a engine plus a GMC diesel vacuum pump and a large Delco
inverter-alternator that can run the 12 volt systems and supply up to 120
VAC 60hz 7KW at the same time.
I used one 5 hp 90/180 DC Permanent Magnet drive motor made by Baldor Co.
which you can purchase from any local motor repair shop. It is a flange
type, that would be install in the same position that damper wheel and drive
pulley would be install to the engine crank if you are not going to use the
main motor as a drive.
If you want to use the main motor as a drive for a mechanical REGEN and also
the another drive motor power by the main battery pack, then I install this
motor in a different position so I can choose between either drive system.
I made this drive position inline with the main motor pilot shaft, which is
connected with a Dodge Power Transmission Dana Flex coupler and a Dodge
Power Transmission electric clutch than can be operated from 12 to 180
volts DC.
Can either run the accessory drive by the motor during coast down on long
icy hills which acts like a mechanical REGEN or drives the accessories by
the 5 hp 180 volt motor off the main battery pack when I do not need to slow
the EV.
Dodge or Browning power trains devices are sold by places that sells
bearings, pulleys, gears, belts and etc.
You can get V-Belt or Serpentine Conversion Kits, electric water pumps,
pulleys, vacuum units, from jegs.com
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 11:14 PM
Subject: Things I'd like to buy from EV suppliers
>
> After being an EVer for little more then a year (and I am very happy with
> my lead sleds I might add) I would like to offer some suggestions to the
> EV suppliers as most compete with pretty much the same products (Not you
> Victor, I know ;). Now - I want to add the fact that I am not the kind of
> person that re-winds generators or enjoys hardcore construction. I know my
> way around Evs by now, but leave metal working to people that know how.
>
> I would like to see/buy some pre-configured a/c compressors or complete
> systems (i.e. like an aftermarket vintage air system, modified for ev use)
> that only need to be installed and hooked up to the system voltage.
>
> I would like to see/buy a regen system that would come with a small
> generator or modified alternator and all the supplies I would need to hook
> up to the auxiliary shaft of my motor.
>
> I would like to see/buy a range extending generator directly generating
> the dc juice in a way that I would only have to hook it up to my
> batteries.
>
> I would like to see/buy a (configurable) converter that would allow me to
> use my dash board instruments i.e. for state of charge.
>
> There might of course be some company offering those products that I am
> not aware off, so please excuse my lack of knowledge. Please don't point
> me to a/c propulsion. I am not talking about some fancy super system but
> stuff one can really buy, use and afford.
>
> Just a few ideas.
>
> Michaela
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bob;
Thanks for the Rabbit thoughts. Yeah! It was too bad we didn't face off
at Joliet. You woulda kicked my ass!I never ran the Rabbit for times with
the T Wrecks and stoughter clutch. I was hoping to blast away my glacial 54
mphin the quarter at Power of DC last year. I have run TRAINS faster than
that. The Acela comes to mind, with 330 OTHER folks aboard that were unaware
that I was racing the clock<g>!Full house as it often ran on weakends. WHO
sez that people don't ride trains anymore. A NEW train, with the new train
smell, like new CAR smell, packs them in! The Bunny, maybe I coulda gotten
way past 60. Sigh.
I left my fone no in the note on the car, funny I haven't heard from
anybody there. I guess you can just junk abandoned cars in NY State? Here in
CT they give you shit,if the car isnt 25 years old, State an' junkyard WANTS
the title. One look at the stove in car with the front end ripped apart they
could see why I left it there as road kill. It looked pretty hopeless.
The Rabbit was a learning curve towards a better car. It wasn't a state
of the art car, but a gofur, daily driver to go to all the enchanting places
I go EVery day. That most people could get by with the car's limitations,
range wise. The batteries were the weak point. Lead batteries are a pain in
the ass, we need sumething better, for sure. I look at it like a sailer
looks at his sailboat. Yeah! Sailboats can and are a pain in the ass to feed
and maintain, but the satisfaction one gets from moving with the wind,
silent smooth ride, makes it all worth it. Plus, you did have to develop a
bit of skill to "Run" a sailboat. If you couldn't do that, well go buy
yourself a Chris Craft, mash the starter, aim it, and go. Whatthehell fun is
THAT? Perfect name for a motorboat;"Fuelish Pleasure"One good thing about
gas prices will be , maybe , less raciously, noisy boats on the water, more
sailboats and the decorum and gracefullness that they instill? It's a mind
thing here.Hmmm, Maybe I'll put the Sunfish in this summer? MY Yacht<g>!
Anyhow, will see ya all at Power of DC. Show of hands, whose going? I
guess John Wayland's out?THIS year. Sigh!Hell, John only 1000 miles MORE<g>!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1) I use extra range (albeit not 200 miles, but 10-15 miles over 60 approx.
once a week)
I could cheaply solve this problem with opportunity charging. I commute at
least 250 miles per week. Electric has been perfect for this, and avoiding
gasoline $ miles. Its more than a practical solution to gas prices. It's
the hobby thrill and knowing that I'm saving money (as long as gas is
greater than $2/gal. and my batteries last 3 years).
2) Battery Trailers are a good concept, but practically, you would have to
be using it more than once a week to keep the batteries useful. 2nd, I
competed against the Solectria with trailer for many years in the tour.
His 156 miles range is not realistic just as much as my Ford Escort's 100
mile range is not realistic. Those are what we call "Tour miles". Real
miles would be 50-60 for my Escort. Lastly, the driver of the Solectria
would sell the batteries from the trailer after the Tour. Hence, he also
realized that they were pointless in a daily setting except for winning the
Tour de Sol.
3) The idea "Probably be a whole lot easier to get an old Geo Metro engine
(one of the
high gas milage ones) and connect a 20kw generator head to it."
seems most practical so far. cheaper, cleaner, and least maintenance.
WHERE would one find a 14-20 kW geneartor head? (manufacturers) and
referring to my previous question, regulate its DC output to provide a
constant 156-160 VDC for a 144 V nominal pack?
Thanks a bunch, Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> On 23 May 2006 at 21:19, Ricky Suiter wrote:
>
> > Why not a range extending battery
> > trailer? I know someone has had to have tried this before ...
>
> Sure. Olaf Bleck and Team New England entered a Solectria Force with a
> battery trailer in the TdS for at least 2 years - 2001 and 2002, IIRC. At
> least one of those years they won the range prize, with something like 156
> miles.
>
> The photo links seem to have vanished from the NESEA website, ...
But they are in the Tour de Sol Reports ...
http://www.autoauditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2002/photos_002.html
Look for the Super Force .
Also Google
"Super Force" "Tour de Sol"
--
Mike Bianchi
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doesn't suprise me a bit. Thanks for the info. LR>........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arne Magnus Berge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 12:34 AM
Subject: Re: Interesting bit of RAV4 EV trivia if true
I have a document with impress (a bit hard to see on the scan) from Notary
Public in Michigan, so it should be very true.
Arne
Norway
http://www.geocities.com/kewetracer/doc.jpg
søndag 21. mai 2006, 07:17, skrev Ryan Stotts:
"Previously owned by Ford Motor Company in Michigan. Used as a test
car. Japanese right-hand drive version."
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/770
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 9:44 AM
Subject: RE: ADC 6.7-inch Voltage Limit
> Thanks, Bob. I don't know about the bars yet. Vehicle weight will be
> around 1800 lbs. I was hoping that running at 96V would be okay, and from
> your reply, it sounds like that wouldn't be a problem. Still in the
> planning stages.
>
> Bill Dennis
> Hi Bill, an' EVerybody;
A few comments on a 6.7 inch motor. Tony Ascrizzi, our EAA Chapter Prez
,whipped together a 96 volt VW Golf with 8, T 105's I think, A Rapter
controller setup. I remember we went to dinner one nite in Worcester MA city
street driving, with 4 aboard, a 4 door Golf, it did great. No Waylandesque
neck snapping torque, but it ran briskly, good enough for in town driving.
He sold the car in a heartbeat for 5 k to a happy EV driver. Far as they
know, they are still honeymooning?
So what are ya doing with this car? Racing? Oh! I hope not, but for a
basic daily driver that will weigh in at slightly less than the Titanic, go
for it! And at battery replacment time it won't kill your bank account!
Other car a Rabbit Mark Hastings bought , and I was involved with a 6.7
motor and "Only" 12 batteries a 72 volt system. It drove feather light,
compared with the Led Sled!It, too, has decent get-up-and-go. It was purpose
built by a guy in Wilmington DE who had a relatively short 10 mile citi
street commute. A nicely thought out build it for what it has to do thing.
That car Seth Allan bought. Seth, I think junked it, as it had terminal rot
problems. As ALL Rabbits come with Rust-O-Matic from the factory!I think
Seth parted it out? Seth? Got yur ears on??Maybe the electrics live on in a
Something Else?
Just a few thoughts on "Ultra Light" Electrics.
My 6.7 worth
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a brand new 3kw 200-450V MES fluid water heater for sale - never been
used. I purchased it for my New Beetle project but due to the space
constraints I could not fit it in the car.
These are a great unit, because they are completely self contained, have
failure protection and best of all - you can use the existing heater core.
This pump retails for over $500. I am selling it for $300.
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/images/FluidHeater.jpg
Please send an email note to me directly.
thanks
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Presumably the same type of motor used to drive the EV from batteries
could be reconfigured as a generator (if DC, this would require
reclocking the brushes). Still, I am unclear on what benefits are
expected from using a gasoline engine here.
Danny
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
WHERE would one find a 14-20 kW geneartor head? (manufacturers) and
referring to my previous question, regulate its DC output to provide a
constant 156-160 VDC for a 144 V nominal pack?
Thanks a bunch, Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> This pump retails for over $500. I am selling it for $300.
>
> http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/images/FluidHeater.jpg
>
This reminds me - I came across a split heat pump that might work in a
conversion: http://www.appleappliances.com/product.php?model=KFR09G/W
A 900 watt inverter would be needed, unless someone did a total rebuild.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Fisher wrote:
> I am trying to understand the behavior of my brushed PM hubmotor.
> I have TWO "sister" hub motors, of 700W nominal capacity...
> I've seen high-power PM motors (such as in the fuel-cell electric
> aircraft from Embry-Riddle) and they typically have a similar
> "stepping motor" feel as they are turned by hand. The odd thing
> is that the sister motor turns smoothly.
If there is no iron in the rotor, then it should turn smoothly without
power because the magnets have nothing to pull against.
If there is iron in the rotor, then the cogging (pulsations as you
rotate it by hand) are inevitable. It creates the additional light-load
losses found in PM motors.
Could it be that the rotor is out-of-round (from hitting the magnets)?
Could the magnets that you glued back in be slightly out of position, or
partially demagnetized? (for example, if they came unglued because
someone overheated the motor)?
Can you send it back to the manufacturer for repair? Might be cheaper
than a new motor.
> Should the rotor field poles have a magnetic field when not powered up? If
> not, should I de-gauss the rotor? If so, how?
No, it shouldn't have a field when not powered. However, there may be
some residual field. It would naturally go away when you run the motor.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For those of you NOT on the PHEV News Group, this is quite an
interesting set of pictures from last week in Washington DC. Even ONE
PICTURE of a Prius with our very Own Rich Rudman's
PFC-20 dc/dc-ac.charger clearly IN SIGHT !!
Humm... Rich ! Don't see you in any of the pictures !....oh well...
Here is the CalCars Web site for the pictures:
( http://www.calcars.org/phevs-in-dc.html )
Also look at this !! A Texas Congressman wants to write a BILL for
PHEV's : Lamar Smith (R-TX), the Plug In Hybrid Electric Vehicle Act of
2006 (<http://www.house.gov/science/press/109/109-263.htm> )
Want to commend all the folks at CalCars and all the folks who donated
the money to get the cars BACK to Wa.DC for the trip....
NOW... Here in the OTHER washington, we have a mini-version of this
comming UP. May 31st and June 1st... at MICROSOFT Its called the
Sponsored by the Discovery Institute-Cascadia TransTech Forum Series
"Future Trends in Energy, Technology and Transportation "
More information on this at:
http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=209&program=Cascadia&isEvent=true
enjoy....
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:37 AM 5/24/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
1) I use extra range (albeit not 200 miles, but 10-15 miles over 60 approx.
once a week)
I could cheaply solve this problem with opportunity charging. I commute at
least 250 miles per week. Electric has been perfect for this, and avoiding
gasoline $ miles. Its more than a practical solution to gas prices. It's
the hobby thrill and knowing that I'm saving money (as long as gas is
greater than $2/gal. and my batteries last 3 years).
2) Battery Trailers are a good concept, but practically, you would have to
be using it more than once a week to keep the batteries useful. 2nd, I
competed against the Solectria with trailer for many years in the tour.
His 156 miles range is not realistic just as much as my Ford Escort's 100
mile range is not realistic. Those are what we call "Tour miles". Real
miles would be 50-60 for my Escort. Lastly, the driver of the Solectria
would sell the batteries from the trailer after the Tour. Hence, he also
realized that they were pointless in a daily setting except for winning the
Tour de Sol.
Two cases come to mind where battery trailer range extension could be worth
the cost.
a. For occasional use for range extension. If you have a PV/wind power
system at home the main home battery pack could be sized smaller and the
battery trailer used to supplement it. And/Or the battery trailer could be
used to fast charge the EV's pack without running down the main house
pack. The batteries in such a trailer should be of a type that can deal
with sitting around partially charged, not lead acid.
b. If you regularly drive the same long round trip with only a little
turnaround time at one end, you could have two battery trailers. Drive out
with the first trailer, swap trailers leaving the first one to recharge,
and drive home with the second trailer where it is recharged over night for
the next days trip.
3) The idea "Probably be a whole lot easier to get an old Geo Metro engine
(one of the
high gas milage ones) and connect a 20kw generator head to it."
seems most practical so far. cheaper, cleaner, and least maintenance.
WHERE would one find a 14-20 kW geneartor head? (manufacturers) and
referring to my previous question, regulate its DC output to provide a
constant 156-160 VDC for a 144 V nominal pack?
Thanks a bunch, Ben
I think for this type of use you want the generator regulator to provide a
constant POWER charge with a max voltage and current limits.
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
You ask me what you
can do with high voltage and AC motor and this is the answer.
You cannot do it with a DC motor.
I don't agree. My high voltage DC powered Datsun 1200 sedan with its
Siamese 8 motor runs 0-120 mph in one gear. I cannot think one of
Victor's AC drive packages that can even remotely match this car's 0-60
performance (3+ seconds), its 0-100 mph performance (11+ seconds), or
its top speed for that matter (without shifting). Credit to Otmar for
his over-engineered Z2K design!
John,
I can only say I specifically mentioned in my last email that White
zombie does not count as normal car. If I'd put as much overkill
AC hardware on a drag race vehicle and have gone to similar
extremes as you did, we'd talk differently. It's outside my interest.
Comparing White Zombie to Solectria Forces and Rangers is rather silly.
And AC drives I have meant to be used in such "normal" vehicles
people can buy and drive.
Happy tire shredding,
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ben wrote:
> "What is the pack voltage sagging to while you are drawing 150-200A?"
>
> At mid to full charge the 144 V pack reads 137-140 V at 150 A
>
> Near the end of driving, pack voltage would be 129 V 150-200
> Amps (i.e. end of range and time to go home)
OK, so your pack is not sagging excessively and appears to be relatively
healthy.
The pack voltage might still be the limiting factor. Consider that the
controller steps the voltage down to allow higher motor current than
battery current. If you are feeding the controller 140V @ 150A, and the
motor needs (say) 90V to spin at the required speed, then the controller
can only step the motor current up to about 233A.
> "When accelerating at lower speeds, do the DCP's LEDs
> indicate wide open throttle/current limit?"
>
> I have never seen yellow light indicating wide open throttle.
> I am meaning to find the resistor leads to see their range.
The DCP controller uses an inductive throttle sensor, not a resistive
pot. You will need to follow the instructions in the manual (see link
below) to adjust the throttle so that you are giving the controller full
throttle when the pedal is matted.
> "What is the maximum current you can ever see on the meter when
> accelerating from a stop? Are you sure your controller
> current limit is not turned down?"
>
> Approx. 400 Amps at start or gear shifting on battery
> amperage side.
Well, it isn't the full 600 battery amps that the DCP is rated for, but
at least it is significantly more than the 150-200A you are topping out
at under speed.
> I notice the DCP only has an adjustment for RPM limit.
Huh? Do you have a manual for the controller? There are adjustments
for max (battery) current limit, max throttle, rev limit, etc. See:
<http://www.dcpowersystems.com/r600man.htm#cal>
> If the batteries are the limiting factor, am I realizing the
> argument for Advanced PbAcid batteries over traditional
> flooded?
Perhaps. Your batteries are only sagging a couple volts (144V to
137-140V) @ 150A; these few volts @ 150A are costing you about 1HP
compared to a pack that didn't sag at all. However, if an AGM pack
could deliver 300A while sagging to the same 137V, you would have twice
the power available.
Do you have any idea what RPM the motor is spinning when you are going
50mph in 3rd or 4th? If you don't have a tach, do you know the gear
ratios & wheel size so we can estimate motor RPM?
If you are travelling 40mph in 3rd and upshift to 4th what sort of
current do you observe when you matt the throttle? Is this where you
see about 400A? Does the current then taper off to about 150-200A @
50mph?
If this is the case, then I suspect that your gearing may be such that
the motor is simply spinning too fast at 50mph for you to be able to
force any more current through it with the battery voltage you have.
With a DCP you can only go up to 156V; you could try this, but I'm not
sure that just 12V more will buy you much more speed. If you have a 5th
gear, you could try using that to force the motor RPM down so that you
can force more current through it. Or, you might try fitting taller
tires or a different rear end to change the overall gear ratio.
Cheers,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
Here is what I am thinking about as a conversion and my requirements:
Vehicle: 1995 Ford Windstar Van 3.8 Liter V-6 Engine
GVW: 3800 lbs.
Coefficient of Drag: .35
Condition: Excellent
Driving Habits: 4-6 short trips daily (5-7 miles each) all on flat,
surface streets 35-45 mph.
Freeway: Occasional trip 10-12 miles
Top Speed Needed: 70 75 MPH
Acceleration: 0 60 8-9 seconds
Range: 35-40 Miles
P/S: Electric
P/B: Electric
A/C: Electric ( a must due to medical condition)
Heater: Electric
Batteries: Room under rear passenger compartment for 24-30+ 12 volt
batteries.
I currently own this vehicle and it is paid for, plus my wife is handicapped
and in a wheelchair so the van is necessary for her to travel and get in and
out of easily. We have looked at smaller cars, but she is unable to get in
and out easily, plus have room for her wheelchair. We live in Southern
California and go to Disneyland a lot which is about 25 miles from home. So
it would be nice to have the range of 50 miles, if possible.
I am thinking that the removal of the ICE, transmission, gas tank, exhaust
system, fuel lines, smog equipment, radiator and all other non-EV related
items would drop about 1000 1200 lbs off the vehicle. Then with the
addition of all the batteries and EV equipment, I figured I would have a
vehicle with a curb weight of approximately 4800 - 5000 lbs not including
passengers, usually 1 or 2 unless we have our two small grandchildren with
us.
I am looking for suggestions on motor(s), batteries, controller, accessory
motor, installation, etc. I am seriously considering doing this project in
the next 2-3 months, so I need to start planning now for what resources I
will need. I am somewhat mechanically inclined and can do some of the work
myself, but I may prefer to send the vehicle to a shop (if cost effective)
and have it done to my specifications.
Thanks,
Dave Roekle
951-278-2370
951-278-2886 Fax
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On May 24, 2006, at 6:29 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I have never seen yellow light indicating wide open throttle. I am
meaning
to find the resistor leads to see their range. The yellow LED is
impossible to see in daylight.
"What is the maximum current you can ever see on the meter when
accelerating from a stop? Are you sure your controller current limit
is not
turned down?"
Approx. 400 Amps at start or gear shifting on battery amperage side. I
notice the DCP only has an adjustment for RPM limit. However, the RPM
limiter was disabled by the manufacturer when he repaired this
particular
unit.
My guess is that the throttle pot is not adjusted correctly. It doesn't
give the controller the "full power" signal when your foot is on the
floor. The WOT (wide open throttle) LED is also on the front of the
controller along with a throttle adjustment pot.
If you disconnect one of the leads from the controller to the motor (so
the motor cannot receive power) you can have someone hold the throttle
to the floor and see if the yellow WOT LED on the DCP turns on. If it
doesn't there is a pot on the front of the controller that can be
adjusted to change that (hopefully someone has the manual - mine went
with the DCP powered EV I sold.)
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I currently own this vehicle and it is paid for, plus my wife is
handicapped
> and in a wheelchair so the van is necessary for her to travel and
get in and
> out of easily. We have looked at smaller cars, but she is unable to
get in
> and out easily, plus have room for her wheelchair. We live in Southern
> California and go to Disneyland a lot which is about 25 miles from
home. So
> it would be nice to have the range of 50 miles, if possible.
>
Unless you will never need this ICE version of a WC-accessible van,
you might want to keep it as-is and keep a lookout on the evtrader and
eBay for used EV vans - might be easier to convert one of those to
WC-capable than the EV conversion itself.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 24 May 2006 at 10:37, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> His 156 miles range is not realistic just as much as my Ford Escort's
> 100 mile range is not realistic. Those are what we call "Tour miles".
No doubt, but it does give some indication of what's possible. An early Force
with only its internal battery is hard pressed to exceed 50 miles of range,
even when those are "tour miles." A battery trailer can double or triple your
useful range.
> Lastly, the driver of the Solectria
> would sell the batteries from the trailer after the Tour. Hence, he also
> realized that they were pointless in a daily setting except for winning
> the Tour de Sol.
I don't think that's what it means at all. If I'm not mistaken, Olaf had a
huge
stock of these batteries (surplus 8v lead modules from early Ford Ranger
EVs) and he was offering them for sale from stock. (I think Lawrence Rhodes
bought some of them.) I suspect that it was easier for him to sell the
batteries off after the Tour than to haul them home. I could be wrong about
that though.
In any case a battery trailer may be an entirely reasonable solution for times
when you need extra range. With all due respect, if you haven't personally
tried it, I'm not sure I see why you're saying that it's "pointless."
Several list members have experimented with APUs. Certainly they can be
useful, but they're not always as easy to implement as one might hope.
Maybe some of those who've "been there, done that" will post and describe
what they went through.
FWIW, one person posted after experimenting with one that it was pretty
disconcerting to pull up to a stop and have that genset pounding away behind
him. He had quite a few other problems, IIRC, and ended up destroying
some hardware in the process of trying to make the system work. That
person is still a list member, and maybe he'll post and detail the reasons that
he eventually abandoned the APU.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 24 May 2006 at 10:32, M Bianchi wrote:
> But they are in the Tour de Sol Reports ...
That's it! Thanks for posting the link. I was looking for that picture of the
trailer with its cool turtle cover. ;-)
d
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all
I recently noticed the previous owner of my E10 disconnected the forward wiring
clip/harness from my power brake pump assembly. I re-connected it and found
that the only thing it does is makes my ANTI-LOCK brake light come on, on the
dashboard.
Does anyone have any experience with this and what the problem might be? Is
there something wrong with my anti-lock brakes? should my vehicle even have
antilock brakes? is it an EV problem? or do you think my regular mechanic
could fix it?
Dave Banas
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Roekle wrote:
> Here is what I am thinking about as a conversion and my requirements:
> Vehicle: 1995 Ford Windstar Van 3.8 Liter V-6 Engine
> GVW: 3800 lbs.
Do you know the curb weight? GVWR - curbweight will tell you its
carrying capacity. I'd guess it will weigh around 3000 lbs, so you can
add about 800 lbs before going over the GVWR.
> Driving Habits: 4-6 short trips daily (5-7 miles each) all on flat,
> surface streets 35-45 mph.
> Freeway: Occasional trip 10-12 miles
> Top Speed Needed: 70 75 MPH
> Acceleration: 0 60 8-9 seconds
> Range: 35-40 Miles
These are all feasible. The high top speed in a high wind resistance
van, and the rather rapid accelleration will require a large motor,
controller, and batteries that can deliver high peak power. This will be
an expensive conversion.
> P/S: Electric
> P/B: Electric
> A/C: Electric ( a must due to medical condition)
> Heater: Electric
Reasonable.
> Batteries: Room under rear passenger compartment for 24-30+
> 12 volt batteries.
Assuming 1000 lbs of batteries, this is 33-41 lbs per battery (pretty
small). 24-30 12v batteries is also a 288-360vdc system. This is
workable for an AC system; but most of the AC systems you can actually
get won't give you that 0-60 mph in 8-9 seconds.
In other words, you can do it; but it leads to expensive batteries,
motor, and controller; and won't meet your accelleration criteria.
You may want to use a smaller number of bigger batteries. For instance,
19 Hawker 70ah 12v batteries weigh 988 lbs, and give you a 228vdc
system. This could be used with a Zilla 1000a controller and 9" motor.
This should be capable of meeting your specs if built and driven
carefully.
> I am thinking that the removal of the ICE, transmission, gas tank, exhaust
> system, fuel lines, smog equipment, radiator and all other non-EV related
> items would drop about 1000 1200 lbs off the vehicle.
I think it would be more like half of this at the very most (500-600
lbs). And you will put 200-300 lbs back in in the form of the electric
motor, controller, battery racks, electric P/S, P/B, A/C etc.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Great it is becoming a french EV list... nous pourrions nous rencontrer pour
discuter de véhicules électriques... i live in east of France
:^))
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: Reminder: Mind your Letter Capitalization
>
> Naturellement, nous pourrions tout commencer à signaler en français, et
boucher cette langue aussi !
>
> --
> Gardez votre énergie vers le haut!
> Hump
> "L'ignorance est traitable, avec un bon pronostic. Cependant, si laissé
non traité, il se développe en arrogance, ce
> qui est souvent mortel!"-- Lee Hart
>
> Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
> send a request to ryan at evsourcecom
>
>
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Philippe Borges
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 4:19 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: Reminder: Mind your Letter Capitalization
> >
> > Are you talking of non english native people also ?
> > because i supose each time i post to EV list, majority should think i'm
10
> > years old, or 30 needing to go back to school, or a poor student or...
> > no, no, no i'm just a froggie guy other the pond which is learning
english
> > every day so please, yes please, write it well :^)
> >
> > cordialement,
> > Philippe
> >
> > Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> > quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> > Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 3:46 AM
> > Subject: OT: Re: Reminder: Mind your Letter Capitalization
> >
> >
> >> Ken wrote:
> >>
> >> >In my opinion, you might want to consider adjusting your thinking or
> >> >you may be ignoring a significant portion of the populace that will
> >> >soon be a majority of those online (if they are not already).
> >>
> >> Sorry Ken. I don't buy it. Anything worth doing is worth doing
> >> right. If you are going to have your name attached to a post forever
> >> in an archive, you might want to be sure it is worthy of archiving at
> >> all. I doubt any professors would accept a term paper in all
> >> lowercase. How about an all lowercase resume? Despite the
> >> prevalence of text messaging and other such abbreviated forms of
> >> communication, proper writing skills, sentence structure, and
> >> vocabulary are still important. You might also want to keep in mind
> >> that many folks reading the EVDL or the archives may not be native
> >> English speakers. Continuous run-on sentences do not translate well.
> >>
> >> If anyone submits an entry to the Album in all lowercase or all caps,
> >> it simply will never get approved, ever. Spelling errors I try to
> >> locate and correct but that is it.
> >>
> >> On the EV Tradin' Post I usually retype any incorrect entries. In
> >> that case it is usually folks who seem less familiar with the
> >> Internet and submit ads in all caps.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Mike Chancey,
> >> '88 Civic EV
> >> Kansas City, Missouri
> >> EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> >> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> >> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> >> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
> >>
> >> In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
> >> position. (Horace)
> >>
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
