EV Digest 5620
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) (Was RE: FasTrack 0-60 mph Data)
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)Comments.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: Controller Simulations (Was RE: FasTrack 0-60 mph Data)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Box Office Returns for WKTEC
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) AC for EV
by "Harry Houck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: hot climate performance??
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) New England EAA Meeting
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Box Office Returns for WKTEC
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: hot climate performance??
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
by Chris Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Idling motor, was: DC Motor torque calculations
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chet Fields" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 2:17 AM
Subject: RE: Controller Simulations (Was RE: FasTrack 0-60 mph Data)
> True, but 18 wheelers get a little more respect than our typical EV. ;-)
> Yeah, they just GO and YOU better get out of the way!You try that in A
Rabbit an' you will get run over! You sorta plan ahead and FLOOR yur EV,
this is why you should HAVE that power, EVen if you don't usually use it,
think 400amps at 120 volts! That's fast enough, Ihaven't had a problem with
it. If folks see that you are TRYING tthey give ya a break(brake)!
Seeya
Bob
> --- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > You can safely merge on a freeway with >any< vehicle that
> > can reach a 60-ish speed.
> > You just need more room and better timing if you have a
> > vehicle that needs more time to come up to that max speed.
> > Otherwise the large trailer trucks would neven make it onto
> > the freeway.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John an' EVerybody;
What a heartwarming story!Waiting for part 2 Gees! All the EV action in
one place. You are Blessed! The damn vibration bugaboo is BACK! Sigh. For
what it's worth I had these issues in my old Ford Van thast ya might have
met at Joliet, my Towing Vehicle. I had really raggity runout at various
speeds. as it was a custom, shaft for the F250 tranny I had put in the van
years ago, had a longish one made. Guy thast built it for me made dire
predictions that it would have vibe issues. It did, got SO bad, like if I
wanted to go faster than 60 it shook like hell, THEN smoothed out at 70 and
on up.Like I WANT to go 70 and up in an olde Econoline?
Took it, the shaft back to the builder, he chucked in the lathe and found
it wasn't round, thought I may have torqued it a bit? Yeah, Right I said,
with a 300ci 6 cy. ICE HOW could I have bent the shaft? Sed anything was
possable, he diddled around with it, heating it with a torch on one side to
'Sweat" it streight. He improved it, added weights and re baslanced it. WOW!
Big improvement! I also notice if I have it wildly overloaded, like two or
more pallots of batteries it smooths out, but I don't go fast with all that
weight.
I thought you may have a driveshaft issue, too? But yours was probably
built for HD service? But ya never know, ya coulda shed a balance weight?IF
ya had any? But looks like ya blew up another Ford 9 incher? THAT could be
the vibration thing. Get thast fixed and you should live in the 11's happily
EVer after?
Racing is an expensive hobby! But the PIR Real electricity thing? Wow!
No more stinkin' ,noisy, gennies! Yes! Way to go PIR!-Now how more EV
friendly can ya get?Hoping we can get something like that at Mason Dixon
Dragway?Power of DC Fame.The owner liked the idea when I mentioned it. EV's
are getting more breaks nowadaze!
My two Watts worth;
Bob---- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 10:02 AM
Subject: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
> Hello to All,
>
> What a great night of electric drag racing Friday night was! No, White
Snip-a-Lot!
>
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Way to go John! We do need much more positive coverage of EVs. The general
public still doesn't understand the potential. With the new Lithiums coming
on they surely will. At least the other racers will find out :-) The Reality
Shows of course do not show reality. I did do one good show about seven
years ago. It was called "The New Edge" and the host was Ryan Seacrest. Some
here may have heard of him because of hosting "American Idol" and "American
Top 40". He rode with me in the "Maniac Mazda" as we blew the doors off a
Dodge Viper and the action was all caught on film including his uncontrolled
excitement from the cam inside the car. John, I sure hope your filming gets
out there in the public realm.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 7:02 AM
Subject: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
Hello to All,
What a great night of electric drag racing Friday night was! No, White
Zombie did not achieve the goal of busting into the 11s, but the night
was still a big one as far as advancing the notion that electrics are
nothing to laugh at anymore. Many of my EV friends came to take in the
excitement. Of course, the usual suspects were there...Marko Mongillo,
Rich Rudman down from way up north in Washington state, and Damon Henry
(also from Washington across the river) who once again arrived on his
NiCad powered electric motorcycle. In addition to these guys, we were
also accompanied by Steve Kiser and Duane Gergich who brought their
electric drag bike down from Washington. Many from the OEVA (Oregon
Electric Vehicle Association) gang came too...Greg, Gary, Jay and others
I’m sure I’ve forgotten, and many of my forklift wrench work buddies
came, too. Members of my family also showed up. I appreciate all the
support!
Man, those 11's are hard to get! White Zombie did the usual job of
stunning those unfamiliar with today's level of electric car
performance, and yes, I toasted a built El Camino muscle car, beat
another muscle car, beat a 12 second 4 wheel drive turboed Sube ricer,
and held my own (but lost) with two pro stock cars, but nope, no
11-anything...just low 12's. I guess having an electric street legal
sedan that 'only' runs 12.3 @ 100+ mph consistently (all 5 runs were
100+ mph, with the average at 103 mph) aint all that bad :-) Still,
being honest in my assessment, I failed to hit my goal. No excuses this
time. Absolutely perfect weather, good (not great) track conditions, a
fully charged and fully heated up battery pack, and ultra-fast recharge
turn-around times were all on hand setting the stage for 11's, but it
wasn't o be.
There are, however, two reasons that seem to be validation for why the
car seems to have hit another performance wall.
(1) As Tim reported to me on the 2nd pass the only other time we've been
able to make runs at PIR this year (we got rained out after the third
run back in early June), that old bugaboo vibration issue is back...BIG
TIME. The car accelerates like crazy, with a great 60 ft. time and a
strong 1/8th mile time, but at between approximately 90 - 100 mph the
vibration begins and ramps up so strong, it feels like the car is going
to shake apart. The acceleration simply ceases as the car's power
appears to be totally absorbed by the vibration. Then, after what seems
to be maybe two l-o-n-g seconds, suddenly the vibration vanishes, the
car becomes turbine smooth again, and it resumes a fairly decent pull as
the speed goes higher again where the car gains those extra 3-4 mph to
where the trap speed comes out at 103-104 mph. If the vibration wasn't
there and those two seconds of stalled acceleration were replaced with
mild continued high mph acceleration, it's pretty clear to me after
driving the car, that the average ET of 12.3 @ 103-104 mph would have
dropped into high 11's @ 107-108 mph. Oh well, that wasn't the case
Friday night :-(
I suspect we've cracked the Ford nine inch casting again :-( The
instantaneous torque from the Siamese 8 fed with 2000 amps off line is
huge, and the series-to-parallel shift also at 2000 amps around 80 mph
is also brutal. In fact, on the last run Friday night, the car broke
traction at the shift-over point bad enough that the rear end got loose
and the rear tires squealed and chirped with wisps of smoke coming off
both tires (video captured)....this, at near 80 mph! I also noticed lots
of extra 'noises' from the rear end that got worse as the night went
on...not good! The last rebuild of the rear end revealed that we had
been dealing with pinion bearing wobble due to a full split across the
casting of the massive rear end, and that this was the source of the
vibration issue. After another perfect condition 9 inch casting was
found, a pro Ford nine inch rebuilder installed a new Richmond Gear set,
all new bearings, etc., and the vibration was totally gone. Now, it's
back :-( Guess I'm gonna be pulling the rear end out soon to see what's up.
(2) After repeated hard runs and fast recharges, the pack got so hot
that touching the aluminum case nearly burned my hand. The last run of
the night vented the batteries and lifted the pop-on top covers on
several. No squirting liquid and no pooled electrolyte, but they did
vent and make a very light fog that lasted maybe 30 seconds on the
inside of the Lexan compartment cover. This model battery is rated at
925 amps for 5 seconds, and I'm pulling 1000 amps for an average of
double that amount of time, so the batteries are performing well above
their specs.
With the vibration halting top end acceleration and with very hot
stressed-out batteries, I made the decision after 5 strong runs to cut
my losses and stop racing for the night to save the pack. Four days
after the races, all the batteries measure good and the pack rests at
390V, the same it usually does at 75-80 degrees. If any damage was done,
it seems to be minimal, so I'm glad I didn't keep punishing the pack.
Conclusions...
(1) Until I can fix the problem and eliminate the vibration, I don't
think the car is going to hit the 11's...it simply robs too much power.
(2) Strong as they are, I'm close to extracting the max possible power
from the battery pack. According to the graphs Mark Farver made off
Zilla info, at the beginning of a run, each 12V battery falls to about
8.2V at 1000 amps giving about 246 kw (330 hp) of initial power. Near
the end of the 12 second run, each battery has fallen as low as 5.5V
with the pack making just 165 kw of power (221 hp).
I'm rethinking the current stack of 30, 26 ahr, 24 lb. Hawker
Aerobatteries. I remember back to 2000 when I ran a 378 lb. 336V pack of
the half-sized Hawker 16 EP models, 16 ahr 13.5 lb. little bricks of
power that could deliver 750 amps during low 13 second runs, over, and
over. At 750 amps each battery would sag to ~6.9V (going off analog
gauges in the car). A double string of 30 of these for 60 total
batteries would make a 360V pack that weighs about 90 lbs. more. This
pack would sag less than the current packs does at 1000 amps, while
cranking out a whopping 1500 battery amps! Assuming a conservative 6.5V
per battery of initial sag, the pack would kneel to 195V at 1500 amps
for 295 kw (395 hp) of power giving 65 more hp than the current pack of
26 ahr batteries do. It's possible that the overly beefy intercell
straps inside the smaller 16 ahr models contain heating under high loads
better than the larger 26 ahr units the car currently has. Back when we
were racing in the 90's, the earliest versions of the 16 ahr batteries
would fuse open their internal cell straps. After sending destroyed
batteries to Hawker engineers, they redesigned the batteries with
beefier straps...cool. Perhaps the strapping of the bigger 26 ahr models
aren't as proportionately beefy, and with 1000 amps passing through them
(250 amps more than when using their smaller batteries) the inter-cell
straps are a limiting factor...they probably get pretty hot inside the
battery. This would explain the rapid heat build-up and subsequent
venting. On the flip side, it's also possible that with the vibration
eliminated and thus the power robbing issue gone, the car might just
crack the 11's with the current pack. No decision has been made here,
I'm just blabbing my thoughts...
OK, enough post racing analysis...on with the fun parts.
The big show of the night came from Steve Kiser and Duane Gergich with
their electric drag bike. Formerly Father Time's 'Dragon Rose', at the
Sept. '04 Woodburn drags with Duane doing the driving, this gorgeous
156V bike set a NEDRA world record for the MT/D class when it ran an
impressive 12.497 @ 100.7 mph! Steve and Duane now own the bike and have
it in pristine condition these days, with lustrous cherry red paint and
the thing detailed to the max...it's beautiful to look at! They had it
on display at the June 24th SEVA Gasless on Greenwood car show, where I
brow beat them, shamed them, and downright taunted them into bring the
machine south to Portland to join me for Friday night electric drag racing.
I had written:
> As a bonus for EV racing fans, Duane Gergich and Steve Kiser will be
joining us with their Father Time-built outrageous drag bike
> that has run 12.4 @ 100 mph. I twisted their arms yesterday at the
SEVA Greenwood car show.
Well, came they did!
The bike's now nearly 5 year old Hawker batteries, 13 of the little 13
ahr models that weigh just 10.5 lbs. each, had sat un-charged and
un-loved for the past 1.5 years since the record was set...argghh! Yet,
after being charged, driven on, and charged a few times the batteries
shed their sulfation and flexed their electro-chemical muscles and made
some serious power! Can you say 12.5 @ 100 mph? Can you say that, twice?
Before these two great runs though, Duane had a tough time getting his
act together :-) His first run netted an embarrassing 63 mph at 14
seconds....wait...how do you only get 63 mph with a 14 second run?
Easy...you get confused and let off the throttle at the 1/8th mile
marker! Boy, we had Duane hanging his head in shame over this one, and a
certain Plasma Boy took advantage of the moment and really rubbed it in.
Duane took it in stride and laughed along with the rest of us (at
himself), then turned around and stuck it to everybody! After the track
announcer told everyone there was an electric motorcycle in the burnout
pit, Duane decided to shut up the snickers over a 63 mph motorcycle, and
with Steve out on track setting up the burnout perfectly with staging
help, he gave a dramatic go-ahead hand motion, signaling Duane to do the
most scorching bike burnout I've ever seen! It was awesome.
I had also written:
> I can hardly wait to see the crowd's reaction to their quick very red
electric bike with it's BIG electric motor clearly visible, and the fat
>drag slick and long wheelie bar extension making quite statement.
>
The crowd indeed, went nuts cheering and hooting. Then, after expending
a lot of power into the burnout, Duane made the Hawkers puke out even
more power and jammed the bike down the track running a 12.8 second
blast! Hawkers rock! Yeah, this wiped away all those snickers! After
that run, came the 12.5 second 100 mph runs back to back...very
impressive for a non-advanced 8 inch ADC motor, just 156V worth of 5
year old Hawkers, and a Raptor controller. Imagine the motor properly
advanced, 192V of brand new Hawkers, and a Zilla Z1K? Can you say 11's?
How 'bout 300+V of hi current LiIons, a Zilla, and the same motor
prepped by Jim Husted? Can you say 'Hello, Bill Dube?"
Much of the credit for the bike's strong showing has to go to Madman
Rudman, as he had charging the bike down, big time! After I had argued
with him about getting us all hooked into the AC mains at the track so I
could shut off the damn stink'n generator in the back of my service
truck, and after he found a maintenance shack where the power pigtail
box equipped with the Cam Lok connectors was stored, and after he made a
special run to a local home improvement type store to get more
electrical parts, he had us wired! Gone was the noise and stink,
replaced with silent and abundant AC power! Using my PFC50x, during
Zombie recharging, ~12 kw of power was rapidly sent into the hungry
pack, 29.8 amps @ 401V, and the turn-around time was about 7
minutes...every bit as good as I used to get with a dump charge pack!
Madman repeatedly charged the bike up to 80% in 3 minutes and it was
fully charged and ready to run again in 5 scant minutes...a 5 minute
turn-around! Of course, the mighty Hawkers simply took in the power,
dished it out, then took it in again...remember, they are nearly 5 years
old, and sat for 1.5 years uncharged and unused...incredible batteries!
Did I say, Hawkers rock?
Back to White Zombie...The night was bitter sweet, with the first run
one of the most exciting, for sure. Normally, the first run comes in at
around 13 flat, with the second run a high 12, then subsequent runs
getting quicker as the battery pack heats up. Friday started off much
better though. For the first attempt, White Zombie was lined up next to
a very loud V8 muscle car, a green Chevy El Camino with a built 350 cid
V8. This bad ass machine had fat drag slicks in back and its heavily
cammed V8 lumped and thumped at idle in true muscle car fashion. At the
burnout pits the Chevy did a ferocious burnout that had the crowd's
attention immediately...all the while I drove around the water pit and
waited for him to end his testosterone fueled display of power. I had
figured that with a wimpy first run going to be in the low 13s, why
bother to do a burnout? The El Camino driver was serving notice that the
little 'ol Datsun next to him was going to get blown away, and he was
jabbing the throttle making the car jump...the car acted much like a
bull does as he snorts and claws the dirt. The best part, is that this
whole showdown was captured by a professional camera crew that had come
down from Seattle to do a special on 'White Zombie vs the muscle cars'.
I had previously written:
> there was a reporter/camera crew covering the Greenwood EVent....the
reporter/camera crew are heading to Portland to film both >electrics
running against the gassers this Friday, and to hopefully capture White
Zombie cracking the 11s.
So, why were these guys so pumped about coming to the drags to get this
on tape? It goes back to the Seattle car show on June 24th. The
interview guy is a hoot, and goes by the nickname ‘Pixel’. Pixel had
talked with me about having seen both the ‘Sucking Amps’ show featuring
Rod Wilde, his crew, and ‘Gone Postal’, and the ‘Monster Garage episode
featuring the build crew that included Mad Man Rudman and Shawn Lawless.
He commented that for him it was disappointing that in both shows, the
electrics didn’t actually win their races and that cool as they were, in
the end they underperformed for this reason or that, and they got beat
by the gas cars. He then said to me, “So, you actually ‘win’ races
against the gassers?” I said, “Sure, I beat them all the time. I also
loose to them as well. There’s always faster cars. But in general, White
Zombie is very competitive with the cars it runs against, and it wins
more than loses the heads up matches it gets into.” Pixel then said,
“Cool, then the world needs to see this. There needs to be a show where
the electric beats the gas cars. Note....I'm not trying to diss any of
my EV buddies or their hard earned accomplishments here, these comments
are direct quotes from Pixel.
Back to the track....Frankly, I was a bit concerned that this first
battle might not turn out so great for the cameras, as the El Camino
'did' sound and look as if it could kick my Datsun's butt. I would later
hear that some of the younger dudes who knew my car had put their money
on the Zombie. We staged as the announcer told everyone that the little
white Datsun was an electric car. Then the tree's lights sequenced
down...yellow, yellow, yellow....FLOOR the
ACCELERATOR!!!!....Green.....Wheels lift, nose in the air, my neck
snapped back, and the race was on! The El Camino's V8 roared and shook
my guts, but the sound faded as he couldn't stay with the Zombie. The
run felt strong and the Zombie pulled hard, then the parallel up shift
happened accompanied by a brief rear end swing as the drag radials broke
loose then grabbed. I could still hear the El Camino at full boil, but I
could also see him in my rear view mirror :-) The best part for me, is
that this poor muscle head dude had to read the 'SUCK AMPS' plastered
across the Zombie's rear window all the way down the track as he was
getting whupped by a little 'ol tin can Datsun (as Rudman calls it) with
a bunch of batteries! The finish line reader boards said it all....El
Camino 13.091 @ 100.75 mph - White Zombie 12.524 @ 101.76 mph, all
captured by a professional film crew! Never, had White Zombie been
driven to the track to run a mid 12 out of the box...an incredible first
run for the night, and we were all convinced the car was poised to rip
into the 11s. Of course, it felt great knowing the camera crew had
already got what they came for....filming an electric car take on and
beat muscle cars.
To be continued....
See Ya.....John Wayland
--
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--- Begin Message ---
I was under the impression that it would be quite inefficient to keep the main
motor idling in order to keep the transmission pressure and PS pressure up high
enough to use....
-Matt
(Switching back to non-digest mode now, takes too long to get a message)
----- Original Message -----
>From "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:34:08 -0700
To <[email protected]>
Subject Re: DC Motor torque calculations
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matt, why do you think you need an external motor to drive the accessories?
Years ago I built a Ford Taurus with air conditioning and power steering all
driven off the auxiliary shaft. When you turned the key to the start
position a latching relay kept it on in idle position so that steering and
air would work. I used a cermet pot in line with the PB6 in order to have
very fine idle adjustment. It worked great!
Roderick
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-360-385-7082
Phone: 360-582-1270 Fax: 360-582-1272
PO Box 834, Carlsborg, WA 98324
108-B Business Park Loop, Sequim, WA 98382
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
> You can safely merge on a freeway with >any< vehicle that
> can reach a 60-ish speed.
I drove my ComutaVan on the freeway. Its top speed was barely 60 mph
with a fresh charge, and it took the better part of a minute to reach
it!
The trick was that I picked entrance ramps that sloped down to give me a
boost. I also picked times when the freeway traffic was either very busy
(very slow) or when hardly any cars were using it. As long as you're
driving the same speed as traffic, or people can easily get around
slower vehicles, it's not a problem.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For those of you who may be interested here are the box office returns for
"Who Killed the Electric Car". These are tabulated for the week ending June
30th. Noting that it had only been out three days and noting the number of
theaters it has been shown at I think the results are quite impressive. It
is currently number 30. http://www.the-numbers.com/charts/thisweek.html
Roderick Wilde
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why try to cool the entire interior of the vehicle? The only objects in
discomfort are humans. Cool the humans, make them comfortable. Here's a
commercial example,
http://www.fastraceproducts.com/page/fastraceproducts/CTGY/coolsuit
Simple and effective, pump cool water where it can pick up excess heat
from the body. It's an ice chest with a bilge pump and tubing pressing
against your skin. I've made a dozen of 'em for myself and friends, with
the heat exchanging tubing strapped to the car seat instead of a vest or
t-shirt. Parts cost about $75 for two seats.
I've driven from Fresno, CA to central Arizona in September in a
vintage VW ice bus. It wasn't cool enough to close the windows, but
much more comfortable than drinking constantly and sweating in 100+ heat
for 8 hours. It's great for short trips and even lawn chairs with a
portable power pack. Energy cost? Freeze a few 2 liter soda bottles
filled with potable water in the office freezer and at home. Bilge pump
pulls less than an amp from the car.
I'm not set up to make more than a few at a time, but I can pmail
details and sources on request. There's patents on some forms of this,
so it's easier if you make your own.
-Harry
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
> ALL cars allow idling, the ICE does it, so if you
> make the electric motor idle, it will work.
> Both with automatic and manual transmission.
> I did not say it is going to be efficient....
Don't get too hung up about efficiency if you have your EV motor idle.
The power consumption is lower than you might think; often low enough to
ignore.
My EV has an Advanced DC L91 6.7" series motor, 144vdc pack, and Curtis
1231C controller. The motor idles at 500 rpm in neutral with 0.5 amps of
pack current; about 75 watts. The motor itself is running on 3v at 20
amps.
A 50 amphour pack could idle the motor like this for 100 hours or over 4
days. Since the actual time spent not moving is a tiny fraction of this,
idling the motor has no real effect on range.
Now, this is with no accessory loads on the motor (alternator, air
conditioner compressor, power steering pump, automatic transmission
hydraulic pump, or whatever). Running any of them off the traction motor
will naturally increase the power usage while idling. However, running
them with a separate electric motor will *also* increase power
consumption, by about the same amount.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
mike phillips wrote:
>
> I hope this isn't such an elementary question it's beneath people to answer,
> but what happens to the performance, range, life, etc of an EV when operated
> in Phoenix, Arizona conditions? (temps from 110-120 fahrenheit 4 months
> out of every year)
120 deg.F is just about the maximum that batteries can stand. They work,
but their life is seriously reduced.
Batteries heat up as a consequence of charging and discharging. If your
ambient air temperature is 120 deg.F, the batteries will get even
hotter. Successful EVs like the GM EV1, Honda and Toyota hybrids all
have cooling systems to prevent their expensive batteries from dying
from the heat.
In a home-built EV, you have a couple options. You can park the car in
the shade, to protect it from at least some of the heat. You can put the
batteries in an insulated box, which is closed when temperatures are the
hottest, and opened at night and cooled with a fan so the batteries can
cool down. This way they sit at the average night-time temperature, not
the high daytime temps. Or, you can put in an active cooling system,
that uses the air conditioner, cold water, etc. to keep their
temperature down.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVerybody, East Coast especially;
It's that time again! For the EAA New England Chapter meeting. So, after
Tony's issue with runaway dumptrucks it WON'T be at Tony's so I'll volunteer,
again. I thought what the hell? Lets do another Pic Nic cookout thing, like
last month? So the regular fare, open grill if ya wanna be creative? Dawgs,
Hamburglers, chips, other seasonal munchies. Come on over about noon, we'll go
from there, lottsa nice juicy outlets for youse guyz driving electric, 120/240
volts, all you can eat<g>! AND you Electrac- ers in the area too.Come on out!
Seeya
Bob
Be mindfull that Happiness is not based on possessions, power or
prestiege, but on relationships with people you love and respect.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
More help for the rest of us from the racers. The internal interconnect
story is of great concern to the rest of us. Anything that helps battery
durability is a plus. The fast charging is how I think Hawkers are lasting
so long. In the real world we punish our batteries a little at a time over
years. I suspect it's the low power battery chargers we use. I suspect if
we concentrated on the charging side we'd improve efficiency & longevity.
Thanks John. As always you are a great story teller..........Lawrence
Rhodes........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 11:58 AM
Subject: Box Office Returns for WKTEC
> For those of you who may be interested here are the box office returns for
> "Who Killed the Electric Car". These are tabulated for the week ending
June
> 30th. Noting that it had only been out three days and noting the number of
> theaters it has been shown at I think the results are quite impressive. It
> is currently number 30. http://www.the-numbers.com/charts/thisweek.html
>
> Roderick Wilde
>
> Hi EVerybody;
WKtEC has made it in real time. Ads are showing up in the New YorkTimes,
along with "An Inconvenient Truth", gees! Right next to each other, no less!
> Maybe not the whole page like SUPEREMAN but a good start!
My two frames worth
Bob
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 7/4/2006
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Clearly there needs to be air conditioning for the passengers if outside
is 120F, this air conditioning can be used to cool the batteries also.
At these temps, the AC will consume a lot of power, and would be a
significant part of the vehicle design, so insulation, reflective
material, etc, will need to be used. Perhaps a small ICE can be used to
run the AC so the vehicle range is not reduced, which could be removed
during the colder months to eliminate the extra weight.
Jack
Lee Hart wrote:
mike phillips wrote:
I hope this isn't such an elementary question it's beneath people to answer,
but what happens to the performance, range, life, etc of an EV when operated
in Phoenix, Arizona conditions? (temps from 110-120 fahrenheit 4 months
out of every year)
120 deg.F is just about the maximum that batteries can stand. They work,
but their life is seriously reduced.
Batteries heat up as a consequence of charging and discharging. If your
ambient air temperature is 120 deg.F, the batteries will get even
hotter. Successful EVs like the GM EV1, Honda and Toyota hybrids all
have cooling systems to prevent their expensive batteries from dying
from the heat.
In a home-built EV, you have a couple options. You can park the car in
the shade, to protect it from at least some of the heat. You can put the
batteries in an insulated box, which is closed when temperatures are the
hottest, and opened at night and cooled with a fan so the batteries can
cool down. This way they sit at the average night-time temperature, not
the high daytime temps. Or, you can put in an active cooling system,
that uses the air conditioner, cold water, etc. to keep their
temperature down.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michaela wrote:
> In comparing alternative battery chemistries: Do
those batteries suffer some kind of Peukert's effect
too?
According to Valence's discharge graph on
http://www.valence.com/ucharge.asp, going from 20A to
60A out of U1 modules shows ~50% reduction in capacity
for lead acid, vs. only ~10% for Valence. I believe
that this drop is mostly due to Peukert effect in the
lead acid batteries, and internal resistance in the
Valence batteries. But each effect may be present in
each type of battery, I don't know.
I do not know the details of the discharge
characteristics of other alternative chemistries, but
I believe some nickel-based batteries have both low
Peukert effect and low internal resistance.
CalCars.org's battery comparison table has internal
resistance information, but I don't see Peukert:
http://www.calcars.org/calcars-phev-batteries18feb06-rdg.pdf.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence-
I keep hearing how Hawkers last a long time.
Yet where's the evidence?
Wayland's Hawkers are new.
His last set lasted a year.
My 96v set in my 1921 Milburn were supposedly dead when I got them, but they
seemed good enough for the distances I needed, so I'm not rushing off to get
new batteries yet. Parenthetically, after leaving Wayland's pre-dragrace juice
bar with my Milburn on Friday, I made the big mistake of plugging the Hawkers
in for recharge...well, that was 6pm...I came back the next morning around 11am
to find the batteries sizzling drawing over 5amps at 119v----the batteries were
quite hot, hissing and the cases bulging.... Still, after rewatering, they
still seem to have some capacity at least. Longevity certainly has been
compromised. Time to at least put a timer on my 13-25amp Vicor charger setup...
I would like to see examples of Hawkers as a long lasting battery compared to
the alternatives. I like the batteries, but wouldn't spend that kind of money
in the face of the usual alternatives and the rebadged Hawkers at Batteries
Plus.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> More help for the rest of us from the racers. The internal interconnect
> story is of great concern to the rest of us. Anything that helps battery
> durability is a plus. The fast charging is how I think Hawkers are lasting
> so long. In the real world we punish our batteries a little at a time over
> years. I suspect it's the low power battery chargers we use. I suspect if
> we concentrated on the charging side we'd improve efficiency & longevity.
> Thanks John. As always you are a great story teller..........Lawrence
> Rhodes........
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 7/5/06 10:55:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
Date: 7/5/06 10:55:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Lawrence-
I keep hearing how Hawkers last a long time.
Yet where's the evidence?
Wayland's Hawkers are new.
His last set lasted a year.
My 96v set in my 1921 Milburn were supposedly dead when I got them, but they
seemed good enough for the distances I needed, so I'm not rushing off to get
new batteries yet. Parenthetically, after leaving Wayland's pre-dragrace
juice bar with my Milburn on Friday, I made the big mistake of plugging the
Hawkers in for recharge...well, that was 6pm...I came back the next morning
around
11am to find the batteries sizzling drawing over 5amps at 119v----the batteries
were quite hot, hissing and the cases bulging.... Still, after rewatering,
they still seem to have some capacity at least. Longevity certainly has been
compromised. Time to at least put a timer on my 13-25amp Vicor charger setup...
I would like to see examples of Hawkers as a long lasting battery compared
to the alternatives. I like the batteries, but wouldn't spend that kind of
money in the face of the usual alternatives and the rebadged Hawkers at
Batteries
Plus.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> More help for the rest of us from the racers. The internal interconnect
> story is of great concern to the rest of us. Anything that helps battery
> durability is a plus. The fast charging is how I think Hawkers are lasting
> so long. In the real world we punish our batteries a little at a time over
> years. I suspect it's the low power battery chargers we use. I suspect if
> we concentrated on the charging side we'd improve efficiency & longevity.
> Thanks John. As always you are a great story teller..........Lawrence
> Rhodes........
> >>
I regulary get near 400 cycles on a set of hawkers in my Current Eliminator
Dragster.Then I sell the used batteries to be used to start portable
welders.Also have sold them to motorcycle folks,they still work great as a SLI
battery
for years.I live and race in Phoenix all year long so my batteries start the
night at 110F very often.Each discharge/charge cycle gains about 3-4 F.Do not
overheat your hawkers and they will last a very long time. Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Lawrence-
I keep hearing how Hawkers last a long time.
Yet where's the evidence?
Short answer: Unless you take care of them, they don't. However they
seem to handle certain types of neglect well.
One of the US_Electricar owners bought a car in NC which had new
batteries installed 3 years ago then it died. I worked with him, got it
running. He dropped his pack, replaced 5 batteries that were dead, put
Zener regs on all 50 batteries, and now has 35 mile range with no problems.
Myself, my car came to me dead after sitting in a hot Fla warehouse and
moved with a forklift. I tossed the main power switch, put in a new
accessory battery and it moved. Charged it and the batteries lasted for
a year.
My latest pack is coming up on 3 years old this fall. This spring I
opened it up, replaced 6 batteries that read 10 volts, installed a slug
of regs and it seems to be back to 25 mile range. Which isn't too bad;
has bout 6-7k miles on the pack.
So no, they are not perfect. But they seem to work better than a lot of
other AGMs out there.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is another way to calculated the amount of ampere-hour that can be attain
from a battery.
Look at a battery chart on how much time in minutes you have at 75 amps.
In my case, I have 260 ah battery at the 20 hour rate. This means you can draw
out 260/20 or 13 ah per hour for 20 hours.
If I look at 75 amp rate which my driving is closer to, this becomes 145
minutes.
145 minutes / 60 = 2.41 hours
2.41 hr x 75 amps = 181 actual usable amp-hour
When I use about 45 ah, this shows up as about 75% remaining the Link-10.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Jones<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
Michaela wrote:
> In comparing alternative battery chemistries: Do
those batteries suffer some kind of Peukert's effect
too?
According to Valence's discharge graph on
http://www.valence.com/ucharge.asp<http://www.valence.com/ucharge.asp>, going
from 20A to
60A out of U1 modules shows ~50% reduction in capacity
for lead acid, vs. only ~10% for Valence. I believe
that this drop is mostly due to Peukert effect in the
lead acid batteries, and internal resistance in the
Valence batteries. But each effect may be present in
each type of battery, I don't know.
I do not know the details of the discharge
characteristics of other alternative chemistries, but
I believe some nickel-based batteries have both low
Peukert effect and low internal resistance.
CalCars.org's battery comparison table has internal
resistance information, but I don't see Peukert:
http://www.calcars.org/calcars-phev-batteries18feb06-rdg.pdf<http://www.calcars.org/calcars-phev-batteries18feb06-rdg.pdf>.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The difference is in the time that the accessories do not need to run
and in the losses of the pulley/belt systems.
If each accessory has its own motor (think A/C) then it will only
consume power when you actually run the accessory.
If you run the A/C only 5% of the time this can be significant.
But compared to the power that the drivetrain needs, it usually
is a fraction, so it does not impact your range much.
Driving a few MPH faster does impact your range much more, so
you can always take an extra half minute for your trip and
reduce your speed by 5 MPH and have power to spare.
Stay charged!
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 9:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: DC Motor torque calculations
Cor van de Water wrote:
> ALL cars allow idling, the ICE does it, so if you
> make the electric motor idle, it will work.
> Both with automatic and manual transmission.
> I did not say it is going to be efficient....
Don't get too hung up about efficiency if you have your EV motor idle.
The power consumption is lower than you might think; often low enough to
ignore.
My EV has an Advanced DC L91 6.7" series motor, 144vdc pack, and Curtis
1231C controller. The motor idles at 500 rpm in neutral with 0.5 amps of
pack current; about 75 watts. The motor itself is running on 3v at 20
amps.
A 50 amphour pack could idle the motor like this for 100 hours or over 4
days. Since the actual time spent not moving is a tiny fraction of this,
idling the motor has no real effect on range.
Now, this is with no accessory loads on the motor (alternator, air
conditioner compressor, power steering pump, automatic transmission
hydraulic pump, or whatever). Running any of them off the traction motor
will naturally increase the power usage while idling. However, running
them with a separate electric motor will *also* increase power
consumption, by about the same amount.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
