EV Digest 5671
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 1991 G-Van on Ebay, in Mesa, AZ
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Tesla Motors unveiled
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Truck transaxle tribulations....
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Another Ebay scam? - be warned
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Tesla Motors unveiled
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Funky Optimas
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Funky Optimas
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Weekend in Portland, OR
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Setting up a Car Line, Some really FWD thinking.
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Funky Optimas
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Truck runs at last (and is towed home)
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) More fun with Optimas
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Tesla Motors unveiled
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Gravely tractor conversion
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re:EVLN(Ocean City nEVs in just about any color that you want)
by "Jonathan Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: GM should have crash tested the EV1. Not crushed it.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: T-Zero early version?
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: T-Zero early version?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: 1991 G-Van on Ebay, in Mesa, AZ
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Re: Tesla Motors unveiled
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: More fun with Optimas
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 1991 G-Van on Ebay, in Mesa, AZ
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
What else. 36GC batteries. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: 1991 G-Van on Ebay, in Mesa, AZ
> Yah but what would you do for batteries? That is within the realm of
normal
> affordability that is, not 50K $ lithium packs or some other fantasy.
David
> Chapman.
>
> Quoting Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > This one might go cheap. I'd keep my eye on it if I wanted it.
Lawrence
> > Rhodes........
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 5:53 PM
> > Subject: 1991 G-Van on Ebay, in Mesa, AZ
> >
> >
> > > 9 passenger GMC van.
> > >
> > > Pulled batteries, they were a bit BbbbBbbBBbbb-ulging....
> > > Spare drive motor, 216V DC system, factory conversion.
> > >
> > >
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_W0QQitemZ160009412802QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
> > >
> > > Cor van de Water
> > > Systems Architect
> > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > > Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > > Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> FastQ Communications
> Providing Innovative Internet Solutions Since 1993
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone confirmed the price of 80k for this little beauty? Lawrence
Rhodes..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 1:24 PM
Subject: RE: Tesla Motors unveiled
>
> What do you mane when referring to pay back period??
>
> Pay back complete cost of car --> $80,000
>
> or
>
> Pay back incremental cost of electric vs similar gas model, if this is so
then compare for example;
>
> from cc.porsche.com
>
> 2006/7 Porsche 911 Carrera Cabriolet
> Rear-wheel drive,
> Rear engine, 3.6 l.
> 6 cylinders
> Torque 273 ft lb. @ 4,250 rpm
> 325 hp (SAE) @ 6,800 rpm
>
> 0-60 mph: 5.0 sec
> Top Track Speed: 177 mph
>
> $ 81,400
>
> Hmmm... seems to me at $80,000 the Tesla has already paid back, and the
Porsche pig only gets 27mpg.
>
> Do I work for Tesla? No.
> Will I buy one? Not on my salary. But then again I won't buy a new Porsche
either. Let me know if you decide to sell
> *YOUR* EV. ;-)
>
>
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> "Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left
untreated, it develops into Arrogance, which is often
> fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
>
> Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
> send a request to ryan at evsourcecom
>
>
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 2:46 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: Tesla Motors unveiled
> >
> > $80,000 isn't too bad for a car that could last about 15 year-30 years
will
> > about as much maintenance as a house needs.
> >
> > depends on life time of Li-Ion.
> > pay back period if you consider gas cost at $3/gal and electricity cost,
is
> > probably near 20 years.
> >
> > I'll choose my $5,500 used conversion with 50 mile range and 0-60 in 1
> > minute thank you very much
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On a slightly more positive note, I went out this evening and fired up
the truck. Then with the driveshaft out tried spinning up the motor and
gears. Sounded good, no clunking or crunching.
Maybe I'm lucky and it is the shaft or the differential.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Welllllll,
It sounds like he is genuine and has just finished his first
experiments and is ready for the real work. But:
anybody that wants to have that experience does not need to
make the same mistake or pay for the info, as it is all
readily available here on the list - for free. Just ask.
(Or on anyone of the many conversion-sites that so many
people who went before us have so painstakingly detailed
out what they did and why.....)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Death to All Spammers
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 8:37 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Another Ebay scam? - be warned
> This sucker bought a scheme "how to make money with an Ebook"
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300008413510
> and is now offering his conversion experience for sale....
> Shown are a photo of a contactor controller on a wooden board
> against the firewall, judge the wiring quality to get an idea
> about the quality of the book <ahem>
>
> I have no experience with motor-to-gearbox mounting, but
> I was surprised to see wood shims to center the motor in
> the adapter....
> The brackets look undersized to help anything for
> motor mounting, but again - I am not a professional:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ130008162805QQcmdZViewItem
>
Update - Reply from the seller:
The approach with this project (and its documentation)was to try out a
VARIETY of of MINIMAL tactics to see what could be done and work up
from there. This is not a ''kit'' type project, or a specific part for
a specific result project, but an assortment of ideas tried for
general learning and foundational information about what could be
acheived for the least in all areas; THEN ... how this could be
tweaked with stepped, upgrade options for better all around
performance. The final top speed of the little 2.5 HP motor first used
(often pushed to 7 HP!) was about 45 MPH with an average ''cruising
speed'' of about 30 MPH. Range with the first set of cheap marine
batteries was only about 15 miles. I wind up suggesting a 7 to 12 HP
motor MINIMIMAL and a better grade of 6 volt batteries (for longer
range) to begin with.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't forget the tZero,
I assume that it is also for sale,
already a long time.....
But they started different, gas was not $3
and I doubt that they had the Governer over
for the unveiling.
Sometimes the marketing approach makes or breaks
a product, whether it is a good product or not.
But it may cause new traction for other EV builders
when there are successful and top dollar EVs.
Like the racing teams: Joe wants a car that resembles
the car that won the race (even if it is only the brand).
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jimmy Argon
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 8:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Tesla Motors unveiled
Back in 92 when the first viper came out - the price was very
high--$50,000. No windows just the windshield, many people could not
justify its purchase and complained of all the options it did not have.
Many of us wanted that V10 car that was ready to race, needles to say it
was not in the price range of the average Joe. What it did have was the
MUSCLE that had not been available in a production car in many years (just
Miata clone jelly beans rolling around - yuck). Even if you had $50K the
waiting line was a year long!
What impresses me and what is easy to overlook is that the Tesla Roadster
is the first Production Muscle EV that you can buy!!! I am sure that in a
year or so "we" will find ways to increase the performance and eliminate
any governing features. In other words this car will turn heads because
it is a production car designed to do so. If successful, we may see a
Tesla Roadster race class in the SCCA.
The customers that will buy them can afford to drive them occasionally and
drive them like any other sports car. Actually, they may drive them more
since they aren't like any other sports car.
When I logged in at work today I had 5 emails from non EVers sending me
the link to the Tesla site - wow!
Bottom line - Today it is the best advertisement for EVs we could ask for
- and when the high performance Joe Blow model comes out we will all be
looking and ......justifying.
Jimmy
> From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I guess I have to say a little bit about the Tesla myself. It sure looks
> great and the specs are promising. But - comparing it with a Porsche
> seems to be a bit pretentious. I would rather buy a Porsche for the
money and here is why:
> Porsche is well-known brand and they built desirable cars, they are
> known
> for their technology, safety and they have an impressive record, on the
> race track (16 times Le Mans Champion and others) as well as on the
> road.
> I have Prsche repair facilities in every bigger city. Porsche has a
> known
> value and is easy to sell on the used car market. We had quite a few
> Porsches (928, Speedsters, 911 Convertibles and -Turbos) and still own
> my
> favourite, a 968 convertible.
>
> While I hope that Tesla will have the commercial success it is looking
> for, I would rather invest into a comapny that is adressing a $35,000
> market. Though I know that it is difficult (impossible?) to build a
> vehicle with decent specs and keep it cheap. And no - I am not talking
> adanved DC and floodies ;)
> Michaela
> > What do you mane when referring to pay back period??
> > Pay back complete cost of car --> $80,000
> > or Pay back incremental cost of electric vs similar gas model, if this
> is so then compare for example;
> > from cc.porsche.com
> > 2006/7 Porsche 911 Carrera Cabriolet
> > Rear-wheel drive,
> > Rear engine, 3.6 l.
> > 6 cylinders
> > Torque 273 ft lb. @ 4,250 rpm
> > 325 hp (SAE) @ 6,800 rpm
> > 0-60 mph: 5.0 sec
> > Top Track Speed: 177 mph
> > $ 81,400
> > Hmmm... seems to me at $80,000 the Tesla has already paid back, and
> the Porsche pig only gets 27mpg.
> > Do I work for Tesla? No.
> > Will I buy one? Not on my salary. But then again I won't buy a new
> Porsche
> > either. Let me know if you decide to sell
> > *YOUR* EV. ;-)
> > Stay Charged!
> > Hump
> > "Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left
> > untreated, it develops into Arrogance, which is often
> > fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
> > Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
> > send a request to ryan at evsourcecom
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Subject: Re: Tesla Motors unveiled
> >> $80,000 isn't too bad for a car that could last about 15 year-30
> years
> >> will
> >> about as much maintenance as a house needs.
> >>
> >> depends on life time of Li-Ion.
> >> pay back period if you consider gas cost at $3/gal and electricity
> cost,
> >> is probably near 20 years.
> >> I'll choose my $5,500 used conversion with 50 mile range and 0-60 in
> 1 minute thank you very much
> > From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart writes:
>
> Ralph Merwin wrote:
> > The voltage was up quite high, at about 16.3 volts or so.
>
> That's way too high! There's no reason to go this high.
Even during an equalization charge?
> Yes, they could. A bad vent seal prevents the internal pressure from
> rising, so it vents much easier and has a much lower recombination rate.
> This of course makes it vent all the more.
I have a spare dead Optima that I'll use for practice taking the vent
apart. Hopefully the hissing battery just has something keeping it from
closing properly
> Check the seal between the cover and case. I've seen a number of Optimas
> where this seal was broken (could lift the top in one spot or another
> with gently upward pressure). These had gotten broken by dropping the
> battery into the battery box such that its top snagged on the adjacent
> battery, and broke the seal as it fell.
I was worried about this when I was installing the batteries. If this
seal is broken wouldn't gas in the battery escape there instead of the
vent? I used a PVC pipe to listen to the vent directly and the noise
is definately coming from there.
> > I suspect the charger timed out before the voltage hit the E-Meter's set
> > point. The current is typically below an amp around this time.
>
> That doesn't sound right if you were seeing over 16v per battery.
Under normal charging conditions the batteries are clamped at 14.8v or
so, depending on temperature. It was only while equalizing that they
got over 16v.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G. writes:
>
>
> No, Optimas may vent at 2 amps for one hour. In fact, they may vent at
> 1 amp for 2 hours too (and either way, they may exceed 16 volts.) My
> experience indicates that new Optimas are more likely to do this than
> old ones.
Hmmm... Mine are three years old but have only been in regular use for
a few months. They were kept charged while waiting to be installed.
Does that qualify as new still?
> I'm not suggesting that equalization is a bad thing. Its needed and
> moderate water loss is acceptable (running too low on water about the
> same time you run out of good active material sounds like the perfect
> plan.) A little ticking doesn't bother me - but hissing would make me
> *stop* too :-)
>
> Your buddy pairs only add wrinkles to this situation. I recommend you
> test each battery separately (not as a buddy pair.) I recommend that
> after testing you make sure to buddy each battery with the one it was
> in parallel with before. They have become some sort of a team.
Paul,
Thanks for the input. I have each battery numbered and each pair
numbered, and even have notes on pack location.
I'll try splitting the oddball pairs up this weekend to see if they act
differently.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am arriving this Friday (tommorrow), several days early for a
conference in Portland next week. I originally planned on OEVA doing a
show for the opening of WKTEC, but it looks like their big event was
last week at the press showing. It just heard Wayland will be out for
the weekend, so it looks like my schedule is clear and its far to late
to change the reservations. ;-)
I'll probably try to attend an opening night showing of WKTEC, (it still
hasn't been released here in Austin). I might rent a car and go visit
the various natural attractions, etc. If anyone in the area is
interested in getting together or has suggestions on activities please
let me know... I'd also be willing to make the drive to Seattle or
pretty much anywhere with 3-4 hours of portland.
Send me an email, I'll check it as soon as I get in tomorrow (11am PDT)
Thanks
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I determined it is much more economical to convert existing cars to
electric, isn't that all we care about anyway, eliminate the gasoline
engine? The major cost of a conversion is the battery pack, we can use
something here to lower the cost.
Jack
Jeff Shanab wrote:
Someone says it costs about 2Billion to set up a car line and I say,
Sure, If you continue to do it the same way it has been done.
Also There are more people who will buy a 25K car than 80K car. Although
the battery cost tends to push the manufactures to that magic number. I
think we really need someone to start a new type of car company, an
electric car company that breaks the mold. With about 220Million to
produce 30,000 vehicles in the first lot. Maybe Tesla(love their logo,
btw) will make enough to make the jump.
If they could be sold for 25K and 7.5K was used to pay off the
220Million, At those quantities the motors,controllers and batteries and
bms should be at most 1/2 of what we are accustom to now. The trick is
to get past the hump and not to build something with 1000 assembled pieces.
I was playing with an idea that would take 55 employees and a 25,000
sqft building to produce 30,000 / year. This is about 8 cars an hour on
2 shift operation. Since the cure time is over 10 min, this is multiple
molds.
I have since thought about how I can scale this back to just me and a
team of prospective car owners that can get together on weekends and run
small batches. The main issue is the primary chassis tooling, but
perhaps wood will suffice at this lower volume.
Since I don't think I will be able to secure financing I outline the
design ideas here.
The method of construction I am considering is to injection mold
PolyPro blocks for thru monting points
On a lightweight core, mold the Foam in 1.5" wide strips
On the main tool, A mixture of specifically oriented S-glass,Kevlar,
and carbon fiber is cut and wrapped on 3 piece core.
The PP blocks are loaded and the foam strips are wrapped in roving and
loaded
The outer layers are wrapped and the tool is closed.
A vacuum is drawn and resin is mixed with catalyst and sucked/injected
in.
This modified SCRIMP process makes a single piece chassis that
everything else is connected too. The Wrapped slices of foam create a
3Dimensional strucure that resists whole scaled delamination during
crashes.
In a significant wreck, it is REPLACED, not repaired. New philosophy.
Since the Chassis is a one shot < 1/2 hour item The cost of that one
single part(before paint) should be manageable. (They wanted $3800 to
fix one hood and fender on my car anyway.)
I think this is a natural extension to the Sunrise. No plastic trim
interior, no head liner(maybe), The structural part of the doors is
about 1" thick with the 1" thick door jamb sides and bottom forming a 3"
deep box to house the window, crank mechanism and the non-structural and
easily servicable door interior. The outer 1" thick has a rib accent
that is made by extra layers on composite to create a side door beam
that redirects forces.
Think how quiet and well insulated a composite car with foam core that
runs electric could be, great acoustics too.
The Whole Idea is an Open Source design with all info avail to allow
after market and solicit responses. And eventually Commodity pricing as
well as costing. (keeps a manufacture honest) Parts sold will be no more
than twice the cost of buying assembled vehicle, goal is to be the
same. Even Within the car a standard is desired. The motor and
suspension are one subassembly dropping thru a hole and bolting around
the flange. 2 parts change to make it not steerable in back. You can run
a blank motor carrier in back and buy 1 motor and 1 battery pack for 50
mile range boring performance. Or Buy a second motor AT ANY TIME and
install it. Buy a second battery pack for extended range. The hatchback
opening can be fitted with 1 of 3 options, notchback(think fiero GT),
hatchback (think ole mustang II, 300zx, etc., And boxback(think Honda
civic si, or VW boxback) These all close down on a tailgate that looks
like a saturn SL2 back end. It's tail lights along the top edge are
visible if someone is unloadeing through a lens on the top edge.
Another poll
Am I naive
Am I Crazy
Do I have something?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton writes:
>
> What worked quite well for me in correcting this behaviour was to
> connect the offending batteries to a 15V supply with a 100W 120V bulb in
> series with each battery to limit the current to each battery to about
> 100mA max. I left the batteries on charge like this for about a week,
> after which I could charge them normally without venting and was able to
> get between 80-100% of rated capacity from each module.
Thanks for the tip. If I don't find anything else wrong I'll try this
approach.
> A few years ago Paul Compton posted regarding "blueprinting" of the
> Optima vents. He found that some of the vents had some plastic "flash"
> that interfered with their proper operation, and after cleaning this
> off, the vents worked properly. To access the vents, you need to pry
> off the little discs covering the vents.
I'll have a look at this. I have a spare, dead Optima to practice on.
> Good luck with your new pack. It probably doesn't make you feel any
> better, but a single 120V string of your original pack of blems is
> getting me to work and back, despite now being something like 6-7 years
> old! ;^>
Cool! I'm glad they weren't just a pile of junk.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow, are you fortunate. Failed u-joints? They can cause really nasty things
to happen... worse being the drive shaft to drop out from under. <g> BTW,
replace them all when doing one. If one failed, the others aren't far
behind.
I think you may find a part number stamped on them. (It's been years since I
replaced them.) A bearing house should stock them... at less cost than the
FLAPS or dealer. (That's where they get they often get the parts, then mark
them up 70 to 120%. <g>) That number on the joint is a x-ref... much more
reliable than looking up the car model through parts lists.
They usually fail because they can't be lubed & the grease wears out...
and/or moisture gets to them. Try to get some with a zerk in them... and
give 'em a little squirt once a year.
BTW, you probably know why, but what happens is the bearings bunch up, the
yoke goes slightly off to one side, torques everything up, then it lets
loose. That's the shudder. The steeper the angle, the worse the torque. (A
noisy joint is usually due to loss of lube and/or flat bearings.) I'm told
e-cars can do that if lugged. The first e-car in our area (back in 1970)
could snap driveshafts, if started in 4th. EWEB snapped off at least a
couple, thinking they were in 2nd gear.
If you are concerned, they *may* have a heavier shaft on another model of
the same rig... or it can be upscaled by a machine shop. It probably won't
be a prob again. It certainly wouldn't hurt to have them inspected, if you
can't mic and flux them yourself. The yokes can crack or get out of round,
after bearings fail. At very least, get them in a strong light and look for
hairline cracks, I'd think.
...just my recall...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 5:55 PM
Subject: Truck runs at last (and is towed home)
> Pulled over. I was able to make the car creep, but anything else would
> cause a massive *shudder* from the drive train. Sounded like something
> was broken. Great.
>
> This evening I pulled the drive shaft and it looks like one of the 4
> points on the U joint had damaged needle bearings. As in half of them
> were not there. Maybe that did it, I hope so.
>
> The only question is what kind of U joint do I need? Since it's a
> US_Electricar it's any guess as to the original motor type, cab type, or
> whatever. Any way to find out based on either the numbers on the U joint
> itself, or the number on the tube?
>
> Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I drove my car to work today after it sat unused for a few days. I took
the car for a short drive last night to cycle the batteries a little,
then recharged the pack.
The drive in was pretty normal, and the air temperature was very nice.
I didn't measure the pack temperature but I assume it was not hot since
the car had been sitting idle for several days while the air temperature
was fairly mild. My battery boxes are insulated, so I assume that the
batteries heated up some during the drive.
When I went out to check the charger after lunch I found that it had
turned off early, with about -6.5ah still showing on the E-Meter. The
outside air temperature had also warmed up A LOT since the morning
(Portland is heading into another heat wave for the next few days),
and the charging spot is in full sun for much of the day. I measured
the batteries and they were all at about 100F. I cycled the charger
again and it quickly ramped down to less than an amp of current due to
the regulators.
The batteries were acting pretty much as they always do, with the usual
suspects starting to regulate in the same order. The pack was just at a
lower voltage than normal (temp compensation in the regulators) and the
charger was unable to return all of the amp hours that had been drawn out.
My question is: if a pack is discharged while cold but then heats up
while charging (in my case, from the hot day), would I expect to be able
to return all of the amp hours taken out?
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The press report said the cost was between 80K-120K, so 80K was the low
figure.
I wish them the best of luck. If they can sell them, it will open up the
market for lower priced cars as well, and frankly they have the funds to
do promotion which should increase interest in conversions, which would
be significantly less expensive option for more buyers.
Jack
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Has anyone confirmed the price of 80k for this little beauty? Lawrence
Rhodes..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 1:24 PM
Subject: RE: Tesla Motors unveiled
What do you mane when referring to pay back period??
Pay back complete cost of car --> $80,000
or
Pay back incremental cost of electric vs similar gas model, if this is so
then compare for example;
from cc.porsche.com
2006/7 Porsche 911 Carrera Cabriolet
Rear-wheel drive,
Rear engine, 3.6 l.
6 cylinders
Torque 273 ft lb. @ 4,250 rpm
325 hp (SAE) @ 6,800 rpm
0-60 mph: 5.0 sec
Top Track Speed: 177 mph
$ 81,400
Hmmm... seems to me at $80,000 the Tesla has already paid back, and the
Porsche pig only gets 27mpg.
Do I work for Tesla? No.
Will I buy one? Not on my salary. But then again I won't buy a new Porsche
either. Let me know if you decide to sell
*YOUR* EV. ;-)
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left
untreated, it develops into Arrogance, which is often
fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
send a request to ryan at evsourcecom
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 2:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Tesla Motors unveiled
$80,000 isn't too bad for a car that could last about 15 year-30 years
will
about as much maintenance as a house needs.
depends on life time of Li-Ion.
pay back period if you consider gas cost at $3/gal and electricity cost,
is
probably near 20 years.
I'll choose my $5,500 used conversion with 50 mile range and 0-60 in 1
minute thank you very much
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hey, I have a couple of old dead gravely tractors and
an e-tec or an old 8" westinghouse...hum maybe 48
volts...15 hp at 2500 rpm hummm have to take one
apart and see
anyone else want to communicate their findings re an
electric gravely?
--- Jimmy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello John,
> This is a neat question. I am a "Gravely nut" in
> remission and it never
> occurred to me to convert one. I always liked the
> sound (the harley of
> lawn tractors) and using the xtra long pull rope to
> start the puppy.
> Actually, it may be a good candidate. The constant
> RPM is perfect for
> electric motors since they have an rpm sweet spot
> where they are most
> efficient (around 2500). If you use the wagon, (we
> had the old wooden one
> when I was a kid) you can easily fit a battery pack
> in it for extended
> work time. I think if needed you could even put
> some extra batteries in a
> modified Sulky also. The problem is the engine
> block is part of the
> structure but you could remove the jug and maybe
> just use a chain
> connected to the stock crank. I dont recall if the
> crankcase of the
> engine is separated from the gearbox, if so, you can
> remove the engine
> completely and make a frame to take its place and
> mount a motor with a
> coupler. If you are serious and need some help
> contact me off list.
> I always wanted to have one set up with the Sulky
> and sickle bar up front
> knowing that any growth up to 1 inch diameter is
> game!!
> Good Luck,
> Jimmy
> > From: JCT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Re: Gravely tractor conversion
> >
> > From: John
> > During the process of converting my truck (over
> the past 2 years or
> > so) I have been discussing the project with my
> brother who is a
> > "Gravely Tractor Fanatic". It seems that my
> incessant suggestions of
> > converting anything and everything to electric has
> piqued his
> > interest, and the possibility of a quite tractor
> sealed the deal for
> > my sister-in-law.
> >
> > Checking the EVAlbum, I don't see any gravely or
> other walk behind
> > conversions to use as models.
> >
> > From the brief discussions I have had with my
> brother it seems the
> > gravely requires a constant RPM. Does this
> represent a significant
> > issue?
> >
> > John
>
>
__________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
I own a GEM (a Chartreuse Es). I also grew up on the Eastern Shore and spent
many pleasant summer days at Ocean City. I applaud MacDonald's advocacy for
electric vehicles, and I think that GEM are wrong for Ocean City.
Not because of the turning radius, which I would agree is not good. Not
because of the safety factor, it doesn't stop as well as other cars, but a
great deal of safety depends upon the drivers. And, not because the GEM
rides like a buckboard, which is what the supervisors aren't saying.
The reason that GEMs are ill advised in Ocean City is it gets hot at the
beach. Really, hot in the summer sun. And,
performance (not all that good for utility purposes to start) with floodies
and even with the gels degrades with heat.
MacDonald needs to go back to the drawing board on this idea. Maybe find
some clever way to add a quiet, non-polluting range extender that brings up
the charge on some ultra cap banks. Or a fancy flywheel, but not GEMs in the
present version, at least, not without a clever way to cool the battery
compartment in the summer. And, I would be the first to agree that it would
be cool to see an electric shuttle or even a six passenger GEM tooling down
the boardwalk. But, not a good idea, Mac.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
>
> I wonder what life would be like if a couple dozen had been preserved
> and were still plying the roads, outside the movie theater showing the
> story of the crushing of the rest of the vehicles (including the RAV4
> and Ranger EV and others that were crushed or crash-tested or
> dismantled, or whatever).
I thought a few hundred EV1's were in NY State used to meet that states
manufacturers requirements. They aren't gone yet or am I wrong. Lawrence
Rhodes......
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--- Begin Message ---
In a book my son just checked out from the library called How It Works
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/pictures/DSCF3703.JPG
I came across this interesting picture of what appears to be the T-Zero.
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/pictures/DSCF3702.JPG
But it doesn't look like it has Li-ion Laptop batteries.
Is this an early version with Lead Acid batteries?
The book was published in 2001.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
AC Propulsion still has not updated all their website
about the old lead-acid tZero, look for example at the FAQ:
http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero_pages/tzero_FAQs.htm
There you will see a $3000 price for a new pack from Optima
and a quoted range of 100 miles.
That is clearly the non-Li-Ion tZero.
You can also get the hint from the main website quoting:
"First drive of Li-Ion tZero":
"The weight of the tzero is reduced to under 2000 pounds,
providing significant improvements in acceleration,
handling, and efficiency."
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Willmon
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 11:14 PM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: RE: T-Zero early version?
In a book my son just checked out from the library called How It Works
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/pictures/DSCF3703.JPG
I came across this interesting picture of what appears to be the T-Zero.
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/pictures/DSCF3702.JPG
But it doesn't look like it has Li-ion Laptop batteries.
Is this an early version with Lead Acid batteries?
The book was published in 2001.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Running 750 BB 600 Nicads an identical van got 100 mile range at hiway speed.
Then as predicted the interconnects started failing, batteries developed
individual issues and the whole deal was a total fiasco. Floodeds won't do 100
miles with this vehicle. These use more juice than you think, I believe my
manual quotes 2x what you estimate. Jesse James from Sunbelt told me he had
changed one of these over to golf cart batts and the real world range was
around 50-60 miles. Biggest problem Cor is getting the battery pack out to
service the batteries and the corrosion problems with floodeds. Tom and I did
ours with ramps and dual floor jacks and a pallet jack but its a PITA and not
for routine maint. Yes you can use a central watering device, one of my G-vans
in fact has it and it did not work out according to the EPRI service tech I
talked to. Big Nicads or better are the solution for this vehicle if you can
afford them. David Chapman.
Quoting Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I did not check the size of the batteries and if they
> need to be sealed or flooded, so take the worst case
> (sealed) and see what we can get if we go with the
> largest size of cheap batteries I know (I run them myself):
> 216V in 2 strings = 36 batteries.
> The batteries I run are 110Ah, so two strings = 220Ah at
> 20h discharge, 160Ah in 1-hour discharge.
> So, in 1-hour operation you have about 35 kWh on tap.
> If you drive not too wildly and get 1/3 kW/mi then your
> max range would be 100 miles.
> At somewhere around $90 each, this should cost you $3300
> in batteries, delivered to your favorite address.
>
> If the batteries need to be smaller, then the price is
> lower. (36 x 71 lbs is over 2500 lbs of lead)
> If the batteries need to be half as small then I strongly
> recommend to convert from two strings to one string, giving
> less problems in balancing.
>
> Success with this van!
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 12:15 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: 1991 G-Van on Ebay, in Mesa, AZ
>
>
> Yah but what would you do for batteries? That is within the realm of normal
> affordability that is, not 50K $ lithium packs or some other fantasy. David
> Chapman.
>
> Quoting Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > This one might go cheap. I'd keep my eye on it if I wanted it. Lawrence
> > Rhodes........
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 5:53 PM
> > Subject: 1991 G-Van on Ebay, in Mesa, AZ
> >
> >
> > > 9 passenger GMC van.
> > >
> > > Pulled batteries, they were a bit BbbbBbbBBbbb-ulging....
> > > Spare drive motor, 216V DC system, factory conversion.
> > >
> > >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_W0QQitemZ160009412802QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
> > >
> > > Cor van de Water
> > > Systems Architect
> > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > > Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > > Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> FastQ Communications
> Providing Innovative Internet Solutions Since 1993
>
-------------------------------------------------
FastQ Communications
Providing Innovative Internet Solutions Since 1993
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Apparently the Tesla is actually a Lotus - I have just been listening
to the BBC radio station in Norfolk and they just mentioned it in the
news!
Regards
Nikki
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--- Begin Message ---
Ralph Merwin wrote:
> When I went out to check the charger after lunch I found that it had
> turned off early, with about -6.5ah still showing on the E-Meter.
Aren't you using a PFCxx charger? What criteria does it look for in
order to turn off? As I understand, it isn't temp compensated, so it
will try to take the bats to the same voltage regardless of their temp;
if the bats are hot, then this voltage will be too high and the current
may not taper off as it should, which should lead to the charger running
*longer* than expected if you are terminating based on a timer started
when the voltage setpoint is hit.
But, you are also running regs, which are temp compensated, and so will
try to clamp the batteries at a lower (possibly significantly lower)
voltage than the charger is trying to take them to. This might result
in the charger never being able to hit the voltage setpoint. At the
very least, it means the regs may start bypassing earlier in the charge
cycle, while the charger is still running at whatever highish bulk
current you have dialed in. This suggests the regs will we working hard
trying to bypass a lot of amps and they might easily overheat or latch
on fully (or both), which will cause the charger to shut down via the
REGBUS connection (again, if I understand the system correctly).
Depending on where the regs (and their loads) are mounted relative to
their battery temp sensors, the heat they generate might even cause them
to temp compensate the voltage setpoint to an even lower value than
you'd expect based on the battery temp. What you describe might happen
if the regs over-compensate the setpoint voltage down too far as a
result of self-heating, and as a result the current into the batteries
tapers off to such a low level that the chrager is unable to fully
charge the batteries before the charge duration timer expires (assuming
it was started when the charger hit its voltage setpoint).
> My question is: if a pack is discharged while cold but then heats up
> while charging (in my case, from the hot day), would I expect
> to be able to return all of the amp hours taken out?
Yes, I would expect so.
Cheers,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
Go for it Lawrence!! Take a look at the pack from mine in the pictures on the
EV Photo album and tell me how you would like dealing with floodeds in this
configuration for watering and service not to mention the underbody corrosion
problems. You might want to actually look at one of these vans before offering
such flippant advice. Better yet, change out the pack a couple times. I have
done it numerous times on 2 different G-vans, have you? David Chapman.
Quoting Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> What else. 36GC batteries. Lawrence Rhodes.......
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 12:15 PM
> Subject: Re: 1991 G-Van on Ebay, in Mesa, AZ
>
>
> > Yah but what would you do for batteries? That is within the realm of
> normal
> > affordability that is, not 50K $ lithium packs or some other fantasy.
> David
> > Chapman.
> >
> > Quoting Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >
> > > This one might go cheap. I'd keep my eye on it if I wanted it.
> Lawrence
> > > Rhodes........
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 5:53 PM
> > > Subject: 1991 G-Van on Ebay, in Mesa, AZ
> > >
> > >
> > > > 9 passenger GMC van.
> > > >
> > > > Pulled batteries, they were a bit BbbbBbbBBbbb-ulging....
> > > > Spare drive motor, 216V DC system, factory conversion.
> > > >
> > > >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_W0QQitemZ160009412802QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
> > > >
> > > > Cor van de Water
> > > > Systems Architect
> > > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > > > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > > > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > > > Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > > > Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------
> > FastQ Communications
> > Providing Innovative Internet Solutions Since 1993
> >
>
-------------------------------------------------
FastQ Communications
Providing Innovative Internet Solutions Since 1993
--- End Message ---
