EV Digest 5685
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Carrier companies
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Hybrid Technologies vaporware? was: Tesla Motors unveiled (my com
ments)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: NEDRA Wayland Invitational II at Portland International Raceway 7/28/06
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) AIR Lab Nimh -- GAIA I
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Shell Hydrogen
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Escape Hybrid Nav display was Old Timers may remember
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re; Electric Metro project on eBay
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Batteries
by Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) EV Test drive
by Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) batteries again
by Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Ranger EV Battery Modifications
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Wayland invitational #2
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Ranger EV Battery Modifications
by "Mark Frederick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: batteries again
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV Test drive
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Clutchless S10
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Batteries
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Tesla Motors Performance Comparision
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) was Clutchless S10 / 2 strings
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I think I said it before - try your local phone directory (or the
place where the vehicle is traveling to/from) for towing and/or
transporting companies.
If they have a slow day, they may want to make a deal with guaranteed
income instead of waiting who needs to get towed.
Personally I had good experience and a great price from Roseville
Towing when I needed my (Ebay bought totaled) Prius to be transported
from Sacramento to Sunnyvale, if I did not mind that the tower
brought his whole family for a day trip Great America.
Alternative is that you find someone that you know is out of a job
but has his driving license - rent a U-haul dolly or an entire
moving truck and have this person spend some days driving from A to B
and earn some money too. Drawback is no insurance on your car, unless
you arrange it with your insurance company beforehand, but if you
are picking the car up and towing it yourself, you most likely are
not insuring it either - I did not when I picked up my EV or the
car that I was going to convert.
NOTE that you better have the wheels that are driven not on the ground
unless there is evidence that it is not a problem: if you have a
manual gearbox and it is in neutral or in a HIGH gear then you should
be able to tow the car wheels-down.
Just to be sure, I towed the BMW backwards, with the driven (rear)
axle on the dolly and the front wheels on the street.
The S10 EV was no problem as its AC motor's redline is 9000 RPM
at 72 mph and I was towing it at 50 mph and I knew it was a manual
(fixed in 2nd gear) box, so I did tow it 4-down.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Myles Twete
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 11:04 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Carrier companies
> I recommend that you DO NOT use A-1 Auto transport.
Ditto for AAAT (All American Auto Transport).
But then, I have a problem with most of the transport industry as most of
them are middlemen who do not necessarily do the hauling themselves, in fact
putting your vehicle's hauling out to the lowest bidder as soon as you
contract with them.
It's quite disparaging.
In my experience with AAAT, I agreed to pay them a premium for hauling my
electric in a sealed hauler in the dead of winter for quick delivery and
they said the vehicle would be insured to $50,000. They assured me that
they can't guarantee who'd haul my vehicle, the likelihood was that they
would use one of their own vehicles and that it wouldn't be offloaded even
once at an intermediate transfer station (which is very common). While I
believe they did avoid transfer stations, it's only lucky. They indeed DID
farm out the hauling to another hauler (hog haulers of Clackamas, Or.,
specializing in hauling motorbikes). Hog haulers were fine, quick and
professional. In the end, my car was delivered about a week late and by a
different hauler, yet I paid a premium to have ontime delivery and not to be
paying thru a broker to a low bidder. I never did get shown any proof that
the item was insured while being hauled, being told only that "all our
haulers are insured". The vehicle arrived just fine nevertheless, and I at
least had that to thank as well as the knowing that the bulk of the money I
paid went to a local hauler.
A lot of these hauler brokers seem to be based in Florida and have only
POBoxes...must be lenient laws there. Search the web for testimonials about
haulers----there's a site for hauler testimonials/feedback, but I forget
what it's called.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This company has been discussed on this list before.
When I listed a link to a promising-looking press
release, I got several off-list responses asking me
if I know the reputation of the company and some of
the persons and their former convictions.
Please, do your due diligence before spending money.
One quote that was on this list some time ago from
"Death to All Spammers" in response to this question:
>> I'll believe it when I see it. That company releases press releases
>> all the time and never delivers the goods.
>>
>> Here is a prime example:
>> http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/media.php?mediaID=040831
>> Also, in that drop down box at the top of the page, look at that long
>> list. Have they ever actually built anything?
>
>Other past and present Chaz Haba companies: Whistler Investments, Nu
>Pow'r, Lithium House, Global Electric, Planet Electric, Zingo and
>R-Electric Car - most appear to be exercises in investment fishing.
>Hybrid Technologies' stock performance: http://tinyurl.com/nl6pn
>Considering they defaulted on a $3-mill loan and said they supplied
>Jay Leno with one of their cars when they didn't, can you really
>believe any of their "Forward-Looking Statements"?
<end quote>
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jorg Brown
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 1:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Tesla Motors unveiled (my comments)
Because no one has seen one?
Because the pictures on the Hybrid Technologies web site are clearly
of a gasoline vehicle, not an electric?
Because the scheduled intro at the NY auto show never happened?
Because their products page for 4-wheel vehicles (
http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/products.php?sec=1 ) doesn't list
the SuperCar?
Because their online store (
http://hybridtechnologies.secure-shops5.com/ ) includes only 2-wheel
vehicles and N-charge batteries?
By contrast, Tesla held a major unveiling where 2 of their cars gave
350 test rides each, with each test ride going from 0-60-0 2 or 3
times. Without refueling.
Unlike the Tango, the Tesla, or the Venturi Fetish, the LiX-75 just
isn't for real.
On 7/24/06, Kaido Kert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> How come everyone here keeps forgetting Hybrid Technologies LiX-75 ( a
> Mullen GT lithium-ion electric ) ?
>
>
http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/lix-75-the-worlds-fastest-ele
ctric-car
> http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/media.php?mediaID=060212
>
> IIRC, they announced the price of $125K and small volume production of
> a hundred units a year or so, pretty much in the same ballpark as
> Tesla.
>
> -kert
>
> On 7/22/06, Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The Tesla, Venturi Fetish and TZero are not made for the common man. It
is
> > not intended to be practical.
> >
> >
> > Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
> >
> > see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Steve Powers
> > Sent: July 21, 2006 6:31 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: RE: Tesla Motors unveiled (my comments)
> >
> > I read all the posts about the Tesla with mixed emotion. True, it seems
> > like a very nice EV, one of the best I have seen. I would go as far as
to
> > say it is over-designed, 0 - 60 in 4 sec, 250 mile range. Who can
honestly
> > say that they really need a car like that. And, then I heard about the
> > price, which of course I expected to be quite high. In fact, it is. I
have
> > heard $80k, and even $90k from a different source. Maybe they were
trying
> > to make a point that a high performance EV can be made. But, we already
> > knew that.
> >
> > At the same time, what they created is a car that to the common man
might
> > as well be made out of "unobtanium." I'd say 99% of the people on this
list
> > can't afford that car. I'd say 99.99% of the general population can't
> > afford that car, and if they could, they wouldn't buy it. Why not?
Those
> > people, the ones with the money, are smart business people and they
don't
> > want a hassle. They want a car backed by a major auto maker. Something
> > like a Lexus, Mercedes, BMW ... I truthfully don't see them buying the
car.
> > There are the select few super rich who are also into the environment or
> > unique cars. Those few may buy one. I expect that I will never see one
on
> > the road in my daily travels. And, I suspect that most of you never
will
> > either. So, what was gained? Some good publicity, sure. Someone
proved a
> > point, sure. Did it actually help get the common man any closer to
driving
> > an EV, no. I have to say no. If anything, it makes people think that
EVs
> > are super expensive. Still not pratical for the common man, people
like
> > me.
> >
> > I've stated before what I think (this is my opinion, so feel free to
> > disagree) the common man is looking for, and still no one seems to be
> > pursuing that market.
> > 1. Late model conversion - doesn't even have to be new
> > 2. Sustainable - parts available for at least 10 years
> > 3. Reasonable comforts, power brakes, AC
> > 4. Automatic - the common man doesn't like to shift - it is true
> > 5. Performance similar to a typical 4 cyl car - Corolla / Civic
(better
> > than a Force)
> > 6. Cost - if well reconditioned, about $12 - $18k. Quality of an 8-10
> > year old used car - which would be easier to market - $8500 - $10k.
> > 7. Battery pack availability in the future and it can't cost a
fortune. I
> > think as far as the common man goes, Li Ion is out. NiMH is still an
> > option. Even decent lead acid is OK.
> > 8. As far as battery maintenance goes, the common man doesn't want to
> > have to water them.
> > 9. The car needs to be smart with a BMS because the common man doesn't
> > like hassles.
> > 10. Range. A real world range - in real world traffic - with hills
and
> > stop and go - 80 miles. 80 miles is more than sufficient. If it is a
> > parallel hybrid as well, it could have a 25 mile range in EV mode as
long as
> > it has similar performance in EV and hybrid ICE mode.
> > 11. It has to be backed by a major auto manufacturer so that people
can
> > sleep well at night knowing that someone will be there if it breaks and
> > needs repair.
> > 12. Options of 2 door or 4 door.
> >
> > I think the above could be done, and a successful business could be
> > created catering to that market.
> >
> > What do I think will happen long term? Well, I think one of the major
> > auto makers will come out with a plug in hybrid dual purpose EV and ICE
car.
> > I think the car will do at least 25 miles in EV mode and will go 0-60
like
> > the current small hybrids. I think it will be freeway capable. I think
it
> > will be Toyota, and I think it will happen within the next 3 - 5 years.
I
> > also think the common man will buy that car. I think that like me, he /
she
> > commutes < 25 miles on work days and can run all electric monday -
friday.
> > And, I think if he / she needs a little extra range one night or on a
> > weekend he or she will go and fuel it up. I think it is pratical and a
> > decent approach to clocking some real EV miles. Everyone that I know
who
> > has an EV also has an ICE car. If you put them in the same chasis, you
only
> > have to register, insure, store, and maintain one car. I see a real
> > advantage to this. Sure, I want all electric cars on the road, I bought
3
> > of them you know.
> > And, I even started building a 4th. I am an EV guy, don't get me
wrong.
> > But, to get them on the road, I think we need to take that intermediate
> > step. This is my opinion, so feel free to disagree.
> >
> > In the meantime, I guess I'll just have to keep waiting until someon
sells
> > their 10 year old conversion with a 80 mile real world range for $8500.
> > Trust me, anyone with that car, isn't selling it. And if they were, it
> > wouldn't be $8500. I do remember though when you could buy a used Force
for
> > about $4000 and a Jet Electra for <$1500 and of course my first EV for
only
> > $600. I paid about $3600 for the ETV-1, not running. But, now that has
all
> > changed. I guess I'll just have to dream on thinking I can still get
that
> > dream car for $8500.
> >
> >
> > Still dreaming,
> > Steve
> >
> >
> > Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > What I saw when putting the pictures of the Lotus Elise 3 and the
Tesla
> > side by side was that the CHASSIS seems to be identical, but the styling
of
> > the panels is quite different, so it seems to be "based on" the Elise 3
> > (Federal).
> >
http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/pictures/edatabase/viewpicture.php?id=
> > 116&image=chassis.jpg&title=chassis&album=laautoshow03
> >
> > and from the unveiling pictures:
> > http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/autoblog/hirezpics/IMG_6894.jpg
> >
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/07/20/tesla-roadster-unveiling-in-santa-monica/
> >
> > Some striking details ARE the same, such as the striplights next to the
> > wheels on the fenders.
> > But the design of the hood, the lines on the side, the scoop, a lot of
> > things are different, so it is not really a look-a-like.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Systems Architect
> > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130 Proxim Wireless Networks
eFAX:
> > +1-610-423-5743 Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of nikki
> > Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 11:07 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: Tesla Motors unveiled
> >
> >
> > Apparently the Tesla is actually a Lotus - I have just been listening to
the
> > BBC radio station in Norfolk and they just mentioned it in the news!
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Nikki
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OHHHHHHHHhhh Great
I leave for a once in a life time trip to Alaska and you guys decide to throw
a party!
You guys suck! 8^ P
Wish I could attend 8 ^ (
Cya
Jim Husted
Roy LeMeur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Folks
This is somewhat short notice, but that's the way things sometimes go with
racing.
This is an officially sanctioned NEDRA Event.
A film crew from Australia's version of PBS (SBS TV, Sydney
www.sbs.com.au/dateline) will be there to document this EVent coming Friday
night 7/28/06 6pm to 12am at Portland International Raceway-
www.portlandraceway.com
Admission -
$8/Adults, $5/Children All Racers $22
Plus... all the local media we can manage to get there.
The list of competitors planning to attend so far are...
John Wayland - White Zombie
Otmar Ebenhoech - California Poppy
Rich Rudman - Goldie
Father Time - Father Time Machines "FrankenDragon" Green Bike
Steve Kiser - Father Time Machines "Dragon Rose" Red Bike
All EVers are welcome to compete or just be there for the cameras.
Some EVs that will be on display are-
Mark Mongillo's Datsun Pickup Truck
Gary Graunke's Honda Insight EV conversion (may actually race)
Plus the usual assortment of bikes and scooters.
Be There!
...
Roy LeMeur
NEDRA NW Regional Race Director
www.nedra.com
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just to clarify. It is not a 12V module. It is a pack voltage module. I
have explained the system before here last week in the Rev. Gadget's D cells
thread.
The reason we do not sell it to the end users is that the system is a
complete system with chargers and management system that has to be
integrated to the car. We do not have the resources to support each end
user with different configurations. We want to, but it is not possible at
this point. I promise that we will try our best to make this possible when
we are ready.
We don't believe that selling directly to individual end users is the most
effective way to bring EV's the everyone. We need to spend our limited
resources wisely and look at the big picture. The efford that we might put
into customizing for a SINGLE end user could be used more effectively to
customize a design for an OEM. This translates to a few hundred EV's on the
road. And, with a stable platform, it is more effective to perfect the
system.
Some of you might not agree. But, I hope you understand our difficulties.
On 7/22/06, Jorg Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
If I were to go in, I would address the biggest need: people want
better batteries than lead-acid. Make a NiMH kit that allows people
to just drop them in and use them with the ease of lead-acid, with
proper balanced charging built-in. (Why NiMH? Because it has by far
the longest life, and it's still way cheaper than Li-Ion) Annoyingly,
we had a presentation at the Silicon Valley EAA from someone who was
building 12V NiMH packs out of NiMH D-cell batteries. (Ed Ang, or
www.airlabcorp.com) It was basically a drop-in replacement for Optima
Yellow-Tops - same size, less weight, more range. But he didn't want
to sell it to kit people - he insisted that he wanted to talk to only
large corporate buyers. GRRR!!!!! Why can't they all be like Otmar?
jorg
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shell making a fool (cell) of themselves?
Go to www.shell.com/hydrogen and click on
"ultimate fuel", the claim is:
" At Shell, we have developed this fuel. It is called hydrogen..."
http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?siteId=hydrogen-en&FC3=/hydrogen-en/html
/iwgen/ultimate/ultimate_fuel_0111.html
So I sent them a little note talking about highschool kids
and periodic table of elements.
I also got a bit carried away on efficiency and scientists
already proving that Hydrogen's future is dead and some
quote about a naked emperor....
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich
Your charger is shipping today.
Short the two Regs.
The box that had 100s is empty!!!! wow..!
I will have a batch ready late this week. I will tuen two up for you and
send them along when they are ready.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
Got the 2007 Ford Escape Hybrid NAV/CDplayer, Radio... unit found yet??
The Ford guys here had a hard time even finding it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 4:21 PM
Subject: Escape Hybrid Nav display was Old Timers may remember
> Maybe I can help Rich, What are you looking for? where I work we are a
Ford,
> GM, Chrysler warranty repair station (Gov Fleet) and have full access to
> tech support and publications. We have one Ford Escape in the fleet and a
> half dozen GM hybrids along with a bunch of Hondas and Prius's, over 90%
of
> our fleet of 600+ vehicles is alternative fuel vehicles, Biodiesel, CNG,
> Hybrid, electric vehicles, and hydrogen.
>
> Richard Furniss
> is it suppose to smoke like that ?
>
>
>
>
> From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > Madman
> > got 2 EVs and
> > a 2007 Escape Hybrid.
> >
> > Can anybody find the Nav display for it??
> > The Nav Cd/radio has a special EV power flow button and screen. Nobody
can
> > find one installed.
> > I want one.. In my 2007 Green 2 wheel drive.
> > Any Ford power train guys still on this list??
> > I need Ford Corprate help. The Guys on the Sales end are kinda clue
less.
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
IMHO, from the few images I saw on the ebay page:
The donor vehicle 'might' be worth as much as $2000.
The previous conversion wiring will have to be ripped out -$1000
An all new EV conversion design would have to be built and
installed (racks, mounts, wiring, etc.).
Without actually seeing the chassis and making sure it does not
have other mechanical problems, the most the vehicle is worth at
this time is $1000 minus the shipping charges.
IMHO: Do not take on someone else's headache. Go to the used EV
conversion sites listed on the eaaev.org site and get a ready to
drive EV conversion at a good price.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for all the leads on SAFT NiCd batteries...
I haven't heard back from them yet (?Lou?).
I also would like to price out Lead Acid.
Can people tell me their favorite way to buy batteries?
The car has thirteen Deka 8G27's now.
Do I just go to AutoZone? Strauss? NAPA?
(In order of proximity and best store hours)
Can I get them cheaper if I buy a Pallet?
(how many would I need to get? - I need 13 or 26)
If I buy too many, can I just let them sit
in a cool place (probably not :-), keep them on
trickle charge for long periods?
I also have an email in to a Battery Manufacturer
in nearby Paterson,NJ (I pass it going to/from work).
This brings to mind that whole discussion
about batteries from China. Paterson is a bit
closer, but the durability might be the same or less.
It would be really good to have a web site
where we could find specific information on
how people have gotten the batteries they have.
Thanks alot
Seth
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So, I am going for an EV test drive on Friday morning.
I don't know if the seller will allow me to do
anything other than drive it...
I was wondering if there's any tests I can do in
short order with a multimeter that would be useful
to figure out battery life, etc?
(if they allow)
Otherwise, I'm just checking that components
are in good shape, I could do routine things myself,
look at the rotors, kick the tires.
I guess the big thing is the drive system,
and it is not so susceptible to the problems
like my ICE just had...oxy sensor, gasket, Cat.Cvt.
Thanks
Seth
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another possibility is to go to West Marine,
but I think their prices aren't so good.
They have a Warranty (is it voided by abuse? :-)
West Marine has a SeaVolt AGM Batteries
("sea" link below) Specs on paper almost identical to Deka 8G27
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=53271
Numbers similar to 8G27
Battery - 12V AGM, Group 27, 92Ah, 12.75"L x 6.75"W x 9.9"H, 63lbs (F)
1231406 8A27M Only $199.99 USD YES
also
Battery - 12V AGM, Group 31, 105Ah, 12.9"L x 6.75"W x 9.4"H, 70lbs (C)
1231422 8A31DT Only $229.99 USD YES
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here the email of the guy who selling EV ranger 8 to 12v battery conversion
kits.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mark Frederick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi out there-------
Has anyone replaced the 39-8 volt batteries in a Ranger EV with 26-12 Volt
AGM or Gel batteries yet? Buying "re-manufactured" 8 volt batteries does
not seem like a good solution to me. ($5,250) New 8 volt batteries are
twice as much as used. ($9,000) I can get new 12 volt, equivalent sized 75
AH batteries for a little over half the price of the used 8 volt batteries,
($3,100) and save 500# in the process.
I know the Battery Control Module won't monitor the batteries any more, but
so long as the charger still charges, and the little truck still moves, I
think it would be worth it.
I also want to mount a generator in the truck bed, to greatly extend the
range. The question there, is to run AC to the on-board charger, or DC
directly to the batteries?
Once that works, I can go with a smaller battery pack, saving more weight.
Check out our Website! Pacpower.biz
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Mark Frederick
12970 Earhart Ave. Suite 110
Auburn, CA 95602
Cell 530-277-1985
Office 530-887-1984 ex 105
Fax 530-887-1986
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Well the definition of a Wayland invitational.. BE there... with no warnings...
Just BE there.
Not can you.. Just BE there..
Forget Home
Forget Familly
Forget Company..
Just be there and race.. and make Plasma boy look good.
If we actually had more than a week to make it happen, It just would not be the
same..
We Got chargers
We got the breaker box
Ot's got the Cam Lok and Cables
Where's my Dot leagle drag slicks...?
We have charger back up.. I hope...
So we Gonna be A Racin' Friday night.. with the Gas Guys.. and a few more TV
cameras, GeeZ not again... I have my Mug on wayy too many feet for Video tape
this year...
So come on down to PIR from about 5 PM to 1AM This Friday night for the 2nd
Ever Wayland Invitational.
Madman Says we are going to have a Blast....
Here's to fun and no vaporized parts!
Be there!
Now back to tame EV list post...
ScuZZ the tire smoke..
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--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, I sent an email and will await the results.
Mark Frederick
12970 Earhart Ave. Suite 110
Auburn, CA 95602
Cell 530-277-1985
Office 530-887-1984 ex 105
Fax 530-887-1986
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Bruce Weisenberger
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 10:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Ranger EV Battery Modifications
Here the email of the guy who selling EV ranger 8 to 12v battery conversion
kits.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mark Frederick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi out there-------
Has anyone replaced the 39-8 volt batteries in a Ranger EV with 26-12 Volt
AGM or Gel batteries yet? Buying "re-manufactured" 8 volt batteries does
not seem like a good solution to me. ($5,250) New 8 volt batteries are
twice as much as used. ($9,000) I can get new 12 volt, equivalent sized 75
AH batteries for a little over half the price of the used 8 volt batteries,
($3,100) and save 500# in the process.
I know the Battery Control Module won't monitor the batteries any more, but
so long as the charger still charges, and the little truck still moves, I
think it would be worth it.
I also want to mount a generator in the truck bed, to greatly extend the
range. The question there, is to run AC to the on-board charger, or DC
directly to the batteries?
Once that works, I can go with a smaller battery pack, saving more weight.
Check out our Website! Pacpower.biz
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Mark Frederick
12970 Earhart Ave. Suite 110
Auburn, CA 95602
Cell 530-277-1985
Office 530-887-1984 ex 105
Fax 530-887-1986
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* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
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--- Begin Message ---
With part numbers like that I would assume they are Deka batteries, rebranded
for West Marine. If thats the case find a Deka Rep and buy direct from them.
No doubt West Marine prices will be higher. I paid $140 each for my sixteen
9A31's. That was before the recent lead price hike. Remy still advertises
them for $140 at
http://www.remybattery.com/Deka-Intimidator%20Batteries_263196.html Compare to
West Marine's $229.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
From: Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 10:41 am
Subject: batteries again
To: [email protected]
> Another possibility is to go to West Marine,
> but I think their prices aren't so good.
> They have a Warranty (is it voided by abuse? :-)
>
> West Marine has a SeaVolt AGM Batteries
> ("sea" link below) Specs on paper almost identical to Deka 8G27
>
> http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=53271
>
>
> Numbers similar to 8G27
> Battery - 12V AGM, Group 27, 92Ah, 12.75"L x 6.75"W x 9.9"H, 63lbs (F)
> 1231406 8A27M Only $199.99 USD YES
>
>
> also
>
> Battery - 12V AGM, Group 31, 105Ah, 12.9"L x 6.75"W x 9.4"H, 70lbs
> (C)
> 1231422 8A31DT Only $229.99 USD YES
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Seth,
If you can, arrange to check out the EV at the buyer's home with
the EV fully charged, and have it off the charger for at least an
hour so you can take a pack surface voltage reading. Also if
possible take individual battery surface voltage readings of each
battery. This will tell you the health of the batteries (no matter
what the owner says).
Note the make, model, and date stamp of the batteries. (i.e.: like
I have 22 US125's all changed out at the same time. They each have
the same date stamp on or near the post.
If the owner says the pack is fully charged, take the EV out for a
test spin. Start with normal driving acceleration. Then if you can
find a quiet street to do some accelerations (or get on the hwy is
a good test too).
The test drive will also let you try some braking, steering &
handling tests, and feel the center of gravity of the EV design,
etc.
On the return trip feel if the pack is now sluggish. A pack that is
on its last year of life will not bounce back after hard
accelerations.
When you have returned take another pack surface voltage reading.
And if possible take surface readings of each battery.
If you only drove 10 miles, and used about 20 amp hours out of a
80 amp hour pack, and some of the batteries are severely sagging in
surface voltage, you got either an very tired / old pack or the
the chargeris not charging the pack correctly / balancing the pack.
In either case, you will need to factor in the cost of a
replacement
pack.
Which brings up the question, is the charger set up correctly to
charge the pack right? A cheap-dumb charger not set correctly can
age a pack prematurely.
...
On a previous POST you mention gel batteries. Does this EV use
gel batteries or are you thinking of changing the EV pack design?
You should determine if the charger is designed to charge gel
batteries correctly. Write down what type of charger it has and
what finishing voltage it is set to for what pack voltage.
...
I strongly suggest you connect with your local US Battery rep to
see if they can get you an equivalent gel battery.
http://www.usbattery.com/pages/usbdealernj.htm
Buying a pallet of batteries is much more cost effective than
buying stale one-zy two-zy batteries off a dusty shelf at
different stores.
Be sure of what terminals you are getting. The cabling has to
reach, match, and handle the controller current draw.
IMHO: I really do not care much for gel batteries (for newbies,
wet-cells are more robust), but from what I am reading on the
Solectria_ev group
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/solectria_ev/
the Force EV does well using certain 12V gel batteries.
Our local Hayward, CA US Battery rep Jim Ramos had found an
equivalent gel battery for our local Solectria EV owners to use.
I hope your local NJ US Battery rep will do same.
You may want to talk to the solectria_ev folks as well before you
plunk your money down on the wrong batteries that do not work as
well or last as long.
Take the time to do your homework: less mistakes, more EV grinning.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Paul and all,
Paul Wallace wrote:
I did indeed buy my '91 S10 with the EVA clutchless setup. -snip-
Bob Batson worked with me -snip- After the second transmission
rebuild, I decided that the unsupported pilot shaft was not a good
idea for a Borg Warner T5 transmission.
This same pilot-bearing-less setup was also not a good idea for my Jeep
Cherokee with the Peugeot BA-10/5 transmission. The resulting vibration
was horrible and forced me to spend a lot more time and money to
re-engineer the flywheel/hub to accept the appropriate, stock pilot
bearing for my Jeep; as it should have been.
In retrospect, I can't see how such a setup could be considered a good
idea for any vehicle with a transmission setup similar to ours
listed above (the Borg Warner T4, Aisin Warner AX-5 and AX-15s come to
mind as some other examples). With a long, heavy transmission in a
rear-wheel drive setup like this, I'm just not convinced that you could
omit the pilot bearing and expect the transmission to last.
The motor clam shell mount to the original motor mounts can't react
any torque at all. In fact, it will allow the motor to twist no
matter how tight you think you have the motor captured.
Correct. The O-clamp motor mounts like the ones EVA sells are in no way
adequate for preventing the motor/transmission unit from rotating in the
mount due to counter-torque. They should only be used to support the
weight of the motor; install separate torque rods to be sure the
motor/transmission stay put.
My 0.333 kWh,
--
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://go.DriveEV.com/
http://www.ACEAA.org/
--------------------------
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Hello Seth,
Go right to the manufacturer. When buying in large quantities, they will
let you buy straight from the distributer. Tell them you are a electric
vehicle research company, and you want to test out there batteries in your
proto type EV.
I only have one source to the Trojan Company which is Jim Lee at
1-800-423-6569 ext 301. He is a battery engineer and they can tell you
what battery is best for you.
You must buy in pallet loads of 50 and ask for your local distributer. If
its in Washington state, then the No. is 1-800-777-9779. They will deliver
right to your door with there battery truck.
I do not buy from any local dealer, unless they only take a 5 percent markup
over the transportation cost. This is the normal markup in the electrical
business where the manufacturer delivers right to the job site and the local
electrical supply house takes this mark up.
Also the batteries should be not less than 2 weeks old from the date of
manufacture. Local venders could have batteries setting around for months
of different manufacture dates that I found was up to 9 months old.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Rothenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 11:02 AM
Subject: Batteries
> Thanks for all the leads on SAFT NiCd batteries...
> I haven't heard back from them yet (?Lou?).
>
> I also would like to price out Lead Acid.
> Can people tell me their favorite way to buy batteries?
>
> The car has thirteen Deka 8G27's now.
>
> Do I just go to AutoZone? Strauss? NAPA?
> (In order of proximity and best store hours)
>
> Can I get them cheaper if I buy a Pallet?
> (how many would I need to get? - I need 13 or 26)
> If I buy too many, can I just let them sit
> in a cool place (probably not :-), keep them on
> trickle charge for long periods?
>
>
> I also have an email in to a Battery Manufacturer
> in nearby Paterson,NJ (I pass it going to/from work).
>
> This brings to mind that whole discussion
> about batteries from China. Paterson is a bit
> closer, but the durability might be the same or less.
>
>
> It would be really good to have a web site
> where we could find specific information on
> how people have gotten the batteries they have.
>
>
>
> Thanks alot
> Seth
>
>
--- End Message ---
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David C. Navas wrote:
>Actually, I fear this would be much harder to do than
>you might expect. A sedan would likely be much less
>slippery and also heavier, than the Tesla vehicle.
You'd be surprised how much easier it is to make a big car
have low drag coefficient than a small car. The longer the
car, the longer you can taper the rear end back.
I highly doubt the Tesla Roadster got below a .30 drag
coefficient. It would make up for a slightly below average
drag coefficient with very small frontal area. Its Cd*A is
probably in the 5.0-5.5 region. Good, but not spectacular.
However, larger cars can easily achieve low drag
coefficients. The 1935 Tatra T77a got a .21. The 1954 Alfa
Romeo BAT7 got a .19. The 1985 Ford Probe V got a .137! The
Dodge Intrepid ESX2 got a .19. The GM Precept got a .16.
All of these are midsize or full size cars.
A sedan, even with a heavier weight and larger frontal area,
could actually turn out to be more efficient than the
roadster. Looking at the GM Precept, low drag coefficient in
a 'normal' looking car that people would buy is achievable.
Tesla motors could aim for a 2,900 pound chassis, on par
with a Prius in weight, have a 22 square foot frontal area,
and a .16 drag coefficient. Use LRR tires, synthetic
lubricants, and other efficiency modifications.
The EV1, weighing 2,900 pounds with its .19 drag coefficient
and 20 square foot frontal area could do 140 Wh/mile at
highway speeds. That's definately possible in a midsize
sedan with similar weight and lower drag coefficient*area!
Say, aim for 150 Wh/mile for a family sedan.
For 200 miles range, you'd only need a 30 kWh pack. 18650
size Li Ions are currently $500-1,000/kWh.
AC Propulsion quotes them at $250/kWh with production
catered to large automotive volume. This was in 2003. Tesla
isn't yet mass producing, so it's paying $500-1,000/kWh, not
$250-ish.
Now, that 30 kWh pack would then only be $7,500, projected
with mass production for automotive volume. At 500 cycles to
100% discharge, that's a minimum life of 100,000 miles for a
200 mile range car before the battery only delivers 80% of
range, more life with shallower discharges, but could be
less life if the car sees little use as lithium batteries
lose about 5% capacity a year when left unused.
A 100,000 mile life and $7,500 cost would be $.075/mile
battery. Add in $.02/mile electricity, $.005/mile for brakes
and other shit, and you've got an operating cost of
$.10/mile.
That's cheap!
Consider that a gas car getting 27 mpg and needing $.04/mile
in maintenance would have an operating cost of $.151/mile at
$3.00/gallon.
That same gas car would be more expensive to run than the EV
so long as the gas price is above $1.62/gallon. Gas hasn't
been that cheap for years.
Over 200,000 miles, the hypothetical electric would save
$10,200 over the hypothetical gas car at $3.00/gallon,
assuming both battery packs are paid for.
>As for pricing, I expect that $15k is about what the
>half-pack would currently cost, so even having
>stripped the car, you'd be hard pressed to build a
>$20k car.
Look at the following study, done in 2000:
http://www.ipd.anl.gov/anlpubs/2000/05/36138.pdf
If a 30 kWh lithium battery pack can get down to $8k, a 200
mile range midsize sedan that does 0-60 mph in 8 seconds and
costs $15-20k is probably doable.
When NiMH was at the forefront, a $30k sedan WAS
theoretically doable, until Chevron-Texaco snapped up the
NiMH patent.
Even at $500/kWh, it would be a $15k pack. Such a sedan
could probably be done for $25-30k or so.
Tesla hopes to get a $50k sedan done. Something tells me
they're aiming for the luxury market, and not the common
folk just yet.
--- End Message ---
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <
Steve Clunn wrote:
They're also thinking that the two strings in parallel
will stay in balance better that on long 300v string.
No, on the contrary.
Unless they cut the two string loose and charge each separately,
there will be nothing to guarantee that the current will balance
between the two strings, so if there is a thermal imbalance to
begin with, then the hotter string will draw more current,
good point , along with slower charging time as twice the ah has to be put
in and a pfc 20 makes almost the same amp for a 120 as a 240 set up
get, I'll bring that point up . What might be better is a odyssey 2150 ,
Paul , who is doing the Lamborghini project is thinking of using them . The
number look pretty good , and a 3 year warranty .
Steve Clunn
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