EV Digest 5687
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Upgrading to a higher voltage
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Timing VS RPM's
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Upgrading to a higher voltage
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Timing VS RPM's
by "Garret Maki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV AC
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Tesla Motors unveiled (my comments)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Washington Post article
by Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Tesla Motors unveiled (my comments)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) CHANGE OF DATE - NEDRA Wayland Invitational II now Saturday 7/29/06
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: GEM repair/modification
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV Test drive
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) CHANGE OF DATE - NEDRA Wayland Invitational II now Saturday 7/29/06
by lektwik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Upgrading to a higher voltage
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Wayland invitational #2
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV Test drive
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV Test drive
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Want to build a sporty EV
by Ray Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Robert,
That is about the normal voltage drop when climbing a hill at over 10% grade
at 50 mph in final gear ratio of 5.57:1 pulling a 7000 lb EV.
Even with my fully charge Trojan's 180 volt pack at 260 AH that is charge to
192 volts, driving a 165 volt GE motor, I will pull 300 to 400 amps with a
sag to 165 volts. This is the same percentage of your voltage drop.
My normal city driving at 30 mph is 150 to 200 motor amps (30 amps is use
for the accessory drive) with a voltage drop of 3%, or about 186 volts down
from 192 volts.
You will notice, that my voltage sag is matching my motor voltage (165
volts) at this time. If your service factor of your motor can take a over
voltage, it is best to install a battery pack with a voltage sag matching
your motor volts.
If you do not know the Service Factor of your motor, it may be on the motor
label listed as SF 1.25. This means the motor label current V x I can be
25% more than the listed V x I.
If a motor is rated at 100 amps with a SF of 1.25, than you can fuse it for
125 amps that is design for motor starting.
Your motor manufacturer can tell the amount of over voltage you can attain
for a certain amount of time and the maximum motor temperature.
The maximum motor temperature I normally run at is 99 degrees F. This motor
has a internal and a external fan cooling system, with exhaust grills. It
uses a filter air ducted blower fan that brings in cool outside air.
If you use a Café Electric motor controller, you can use a battery pack
voltage to 300 or more. You can program the maximum motor voltage and
current you want. I am using one of there controllers that is water cool and
I also fan cool it too. Also, the maximum temperature I ever had was 99
degrees air temperature and 90 degrees coolent temperature.
One trick you can do, if you live in the hot climate areas, is to wrap the
return coolent lines around one of the air conditional feed lines (the cool
one) which goes to a water cool motor controller. Cover that line with a
large A/C rated foam insulation.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 6:50 AM
Subject: Upgrading to a higher voltage
> Hi All,
>
> Currently on my fiat 126 EV i am running 72 volts of trojan scs225.
>
> Its alright in terms of performance but climbing hills when 60% SOC is a
> bit
> tiresome. I am driving in 3rd gear all the time which i cringe when the
> amp
> meter reads more than 150 amps and my battery voltage sags to about 66
> volts.
>
> I would like to run an extra battery to 84 volts. That way i assume that i
> can run pretty much 2nd gear all the time. at the moment 2nd gear only
> gets
> me to 50 km/hr tops on flats. I am hoping that the extra voltage will rev
> out the motor a little more to get me around 60-70km/hr on the flat.
>
> And hence with higher revs, i can use less current in 2nd gear than 3rd
> gear
> at the same speed.
>
> My aim is to increase the pittyful range of around 20 kms of my car to
> hopefully around the 30km mark.
>
> Has nyone done that.
>
> I was told by Alltrax that the controller can handle 84 volts. But got to
> make sure that the voltage never exceeds 100 volts.
>
> So for a fully charged pack of 7 12volt batts i can just make the 90 volt
> limit where the logic controller will stop the PWM ing.
>
> I think that this would be a better way to increase range other than
> change
> the batteries to 6 volters which will be too damn heavy or increase the
> voltage to 96 volts.
>
> Cheers
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> New year, new job - there's more than 100,00 jobs at SEEK
> http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Eseek%2Ecom%2Eau&_t=752315885&_r=Jan05_tagline&_m=EXT
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Mark E. Hanson wrote:
I spoke with Dan at ADC and he mentioned that it's 1 degree advance per 1k rpm's and they sometimes on special request advance ADC motors 5 degrees. He said the rpm's will go up as well as the current but the efficiency will not. He said in a direct drive vehicle where starting off is crucial, it's best to leave it neutral.
Keep in mind, that most of the folks at Advanced DC no little about
today's EV conversions. Giving the above advice, is a perfect example of
how clueless they are. If you run a fairly typical 156V system at direct
drive and time the motor to neutral, you'll fireball the motor in short
order! The Sparrows are a classic example of ADC's clueless nature. They
shipped the 8 inch motors to Corbin timed at neutral and told them the
same thing...pretty much all the motors fireballed at the 156V level
Sparrows were designed at. Then, instead of listening to seasoned EVer's
advice and re-timing the motors to at least 10 degrees advanced, they
left them at neutral, motors continued to fireball and take out
controllers, and Corbin blamed the controller manufacturers for the
controller failures.
Dan is an ADC guy, meaning they think in terms of direct drive low
voltage golf cars, and direct drive low voltage forklifts that need to
be set at neutral due to plug braking....they have little knowledge of
our high voltage EV conversion world and really, just wish we'd go away.
This is why EVers are more and more, turning to alternative motor
suppliers. Dan has obviously never ridden in a high performance direct
drive EV timed at 12 degrees advance. He's also probably never watched
any EV drag racing videos. Yes, torque at zero rpm will fall as you
advance timing, but there's sooooo much low end torque available, the
reduction caused by advanced timing has little effect. Take my advice,
advance the timing...do not set your electric motor to neutral for
direct drive unless you're running 48 volts or less. At low voltages
found in golf cars and forklifts, I would agree with neutral timing for
the best torque results, but to suggest neutral timing for EVs that run
144+ volts at currents anywhere from 500 - 2000 amps, is just bad advice!
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Roland,
Thanks for the reply.
I don't run a cafe electric controller (Alltrax as per mentioned in my
email). I do like what you said about matching the voltage sag with the
rated voltage of the motor. If i run 84 volts, my votlage sag when pulling
decent amps should be at or just above the rated voltage of my motor which
is 72 volts for the K series ADC.
Cheers
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Upgrading to a higher voltage
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 07:43:09 -0600
Hello Robert,
That is about the normal voltage drop when climbing a hill at over 10%
grade
at 50 mph in final gear ratio of 5.57:1 pulling a 7000 lb EV.
Even with my fully charge Trojan's 180 volt pack at 260 AH that is charge
to
192 volts, driving a 165 volt GE motor, I will pull 300 to 400 amps with a
sag to 165 volts. This is the same percentage of your voltage drop.
My normal city driving at 30 mph is 150 to 200 motor amps (30 amps is use
for the accessory drive) with a voltage drop of 3%, or about 186 volts down
from 192 volts.
You will notice, that my voltage sag is matching my motor voltage (165
volts) at this time. If your service factor of your motor can take a over
voltage, it is best to install a battery pack with a voltage sag matching
your motor volts.
If you do not know the Service Factor of your motor, it may be on the motor
label listed as SF 1.25. This means the motor label current V x I can be
25% more than the listed V x I.
If a motor is rated at 100 amps with a SF of 1.25, than you can fuse it for
125 amps that is design for motor starting.
Your motor manufacturer can tell the amount of over voltage you can attain
for a certain amount of time and the maximum motor temperature.
The maximum motor temperature I normally run at is 99 degrees F. This
motor
has a internal and a external fan cooling system, with exhaust grills. It
uses a filter air ducted blower fan that brings in cool outside air.
If you use a Café Electric motor controller, you can use a battery pack
voltage to 300 or more. You can program the maximum motor voltage and
current you want. I am using one of there controllers that is water cool
and
I also fan cool it too. Also, the maximum temperature I ever had was 99
degrees air temperature and 90 degrees coolent temperature.
One trick you can do, if you live in the hot climate areas, is to wrap the
return coolent lines around one of the air conditional feed lines (the cool
one) which goes to a water cool motor controller. Cover that line with a
large A/C rated foam insulation.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 6:50 AM
Subject: Upgrading to a higher voltage
> Hi All,
>
> Currently on my fiat 126 EV i am running 72 volts of trojan scs225.
>
> Its alright in terms of performance but climbing hills when 60% SOC is a
> bit
> tiresome. I am driving in 3rd gear all the time which i cringe when the
> amp
> meter reads more than 150 amps and my battery voltage sags to about 66
> volts.
>
> I would like to run an extra battery to 84 volts. That way i assume that
i
> can run pretty much 2nd gear all the time. at the moment 2nd gear only
> gets
> me to 50 km/hr tops on flats. I am hoping that the extra voltage will
rev
> out the motor a little more to get me around 60-70km/hr on the flat.
>
> And hence with higher revs, i can use less current in 2nd gear than 3rd
> gear
> at the same speed.
>
> My aim is to increase the pittyful range of around 20 kms of my car to
> hopefully around the 30km mark.
>
> Has nyone done that.
>
> I was told by Alltrax that the controller can handle 84 volts. But got
to
> make sure that the voltage never exceeds 100 volts.
>
> So for a fully charged pack of 7 12volt batts i can just make the 90
volt
> limit where the logic controller will stop the PWM ing.
>
> I think that this would be a better way to increase range other than
> change
> the batteries to 6 volters which will be too damn heavy or increase the
> voltage to 96 volts.
>
> Cheers
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> New year, new job - there's more than 100,00 jobs at SEEK
>
http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Eseek%2Ecom%2Eau&_t=752315885&_r=Jan05_tagline&_m=EXT
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Research and compare new cars side by side at carpoint.com.au
http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fsecure%2Dau%2Eimrworldwide%2Ecom%2Fcgi%2Dbin%2Fa%2Fci%5F450304%2Fet%5F2%2Fcg%5F801459%2Fpi%5F1004813%2Fai%5F833884&_t=54321&_r=hotmail_endtext&_m=EXT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
How many degrees would you recommend for a 72v 400 amp (motorcycle)
setup?
Garret
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Wayland
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 7:29 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Timing VS RPM's
Hello to All,
Mark E. Hanson wrote:
>I spoke with Dan at ADC and he mentioned that it's 1 degree advance per
1k rpm's and they sometimes on special request advance ADC motors 5
degrees. He said the rpm's will go up as well as the current but the
efficiency will not. He said in a direct drive vehicle where starting
off is crucial, it's best to leave it neutral.
>
>
>
Keep in mind, that most of the folks at Advanced DC no little about
today's EV conversions. Giving the above advice, is a perfect example of
how clueless they are. If you run a fairly typical 156V system at direct
drive and time the motor to neutral, you'll fireball the motor in short
order! The Sparrows are a classic example of ADC's clueless nature. They
shipped the 8 inch motors to Corbin timed at neutral and told them the
same thing...pretty much all the motors fireballed at the 156V level
Sparrows were designed at. Then, instead of listening to seasoned EVer's
advice and re-timing the motors to at least 10 degrees advanced, they
left them at neutral, motors continued to fireball and take out
controllers, and Corbin blamed the controller manufacturers for the
controller failures.
Dan is an ADC guy, meaning they think in terms of direct drive low
voltage golf cars, and direct drive low voltage forklifts that need to
be set at neutral due to plug braking....they have little knowledge of
our high voltage EV conversion world and really, just wish we'd go away.
This is why EVers are more and more, turning to alternative motor
suppliers. Dan has obviously never ridden in a high performance direct
drive EV timed at 12 degrees advance. He's also probably never watched
any EV drag racing videos. Yes, torque at zero rpm will fall as you
advance timing, but there's sooooo much low end torque available, the
reduction caused by advanced timing has little effect. Take my advice,
advance the timing...do not set your electric motor to neutral for
direct drive unless you're running 48 volts or less. At low voltages
found in golf cars and forklifts, I would agree with neutral timing for
the best torque results, but to suggest neutral timing for EVs that run
144+ volts at currents anywhere from 500 - 2000 amps, is just bad
advice!
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another issue is that for the police officer it's an objective call.
They don't carry transmisity meters in their patrol cars. A coworker's
wife here in Manitoba was cited for having too dark a tinting even
though it was within the legal limit.
Of course my coworker had to go through with all the trouble of
proving that it was legal.
Police like to be able to see into cars and try to discourage tinting.
It can be more trouble than it's worth.
-Mike
On 7/25/06, Michael Perry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
It varies with state. In Oregon, it's illegal. In all states, it's rude.
(Ever drive up behind a PU with a mirrored rear window on his canopy?)
I think Oregon made it illegal for the safety of their patrols... as in
glass dark enough to not see what the driver is doing. 2 of my friends had
various solar blocking on their car windows. (They have problems with direct
sun.) Both pulled it out after being stopped so many times... despite
doctor's letters.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jude Anthony" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: EV AC
> I wasn't aware that mirrored tint was problematic; I was going to use
> it, as I expected it to keep out the most light and heat. What exactly
> is the problem?
>
> And is there a name for that pinhole process? I could ask around to see
> if anyone around here does it.
>
> Thanks,
> Jude "Spark Lad" Anthony
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Powers wrote:
>> ...meets the requirements
What are your requirements? Comparing the Tesla to a VW Bug kit car is not
the same. May as well compare a Porsche Boxster to one - its closer.
The Lotus Elise has great torsional stability. Combine this with its double
wishbone suspension will give this car excellent cornering ability. The VW
Bug kit car will have slid out in the corner well before the Elise has come
close to its limits.
Also, will your $25k car NiMH really have the same range as the LiIon Tesla?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Steve Powers
Sent: July 26, 2006 4:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Tesla Motors unveiled (my comments)
75 - 79 Bug or later model if you want to import from Mexico (80 - 91)
Disc brake upgrade kit - make them power as well
replace body with fiberglass kit car
~ 300 V NiMH battery pack
locked in 2nd gear - no shifting
1k HV controller
heater and A/C out of Toyota hybrid
some interior mods to make it look different
Would cost - very roughly - $25k. Much less than a Tesla (or other) and
meets the requirements. Believe it or not, a 79 Bug kit car is still
supported and sustainable.
Steve
John Westlund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Steve Powers wrote:
>Even cars with 156 V / 1k controllers loaded with lead acid batteries
>will not beat my corolla off the line. Simply stated, it just isn't
>fast enough.
May I interest you in Blue Meanie? 156V of old Optima AGMs that need
replacing, Zilla 1k controller, and 9" ADC motor.
0-60 mph in 6 seconds, top speed around 125 mph. This is a 2,400 pound car.
AGMs and that setup will give the performance desired.
The kind of car outlined can be done. But it will require aerodynamic
modifications to cut drag coefficient. It will need to be a lightweight
chassis. This leaves out new cars.
But a classic, properly restored and painted, would probably sell pretty
good anyway if the conversion is very clean.
The setup you're asking for might look like this:
-WarP 9'' series DC motor x1 160 pounds $1,575 (EV Source)* -Deka
Intimidator Group 31 9A31 sealed lead acid battery x13
891 pounds $1,820 (Remy Battery)*
-Godzilla Controller(72-156V DC, 1,000 amp max, HEPI) x1 16 pounds $1,980
(EV Source)* -PFC 20 Charger x1 20 pounds $1,525 (EV Source)* -Rudman MkIIB
regs x13 $585 (EV Source)* -Iota 45 amp DC-DC converter (96-180Vin,
13.8Vout) x1 6 pounds $204 (EV Parts)* -E-Meter x1 $229 (Xantrex)*
-Solid-State Ceramic Heater Core x1 $75 (Grassroots EV)* -Adaptor Plate x1
15 pounds $800* -Miscallaneous components(Heat shrink tubing, fuses, steel
for battery racks, ect.) 100 pounds $1,000* -Donor Vehicle $2,000
(Preferably Datsun 1200, Honda CRX, or other lightweight/aerodynamic
vehicle) -Sheet metal, plastic, fiberglass, and other components for
aerodynamic modifications 30 pounds $100 -Nokian 205/70R15 LRR tires x4 $268
(Nokian)* -Redline MTL synthetic transmission oil $15 -alignment correction
to 0 camber, 0 toe is free with tire replacement
Shipping is assumed to cost 10% of all components marked with '*'.
Total: $13,182.10
With proper aero and efficiency mods, this would grant a converted vehicle
that could do 0-60 mph in ~ 7 seconds, with 2,600-2,800 pound weight
depending on what kind of small car, top out at over 120 mph, and do 80
miles range at 60 mph if consumption can be gotten down to 150
Wh/mile(Doable, but needs aero mods!).
In order to attract your common Joe with an old chassis, it needs to be a
classic renown and desired for a certain trait or look. Think of a classic
VW Bug, Datsun 1200, Mazda RX2, Fiat 600, or some such. A Honda CRX HF has
very good aero and might do the trick if the right "hot import" look is
achieved with modifications. The bug and Fiat have awful aero, but subtle
modifications could help greatly without dramatically altering the vehicle's
appearance.
The battery heaters would keep the desired range in winter-time use.
Also, the battery costs could be cut a bit and range slightly extended with
a set of Universal Battery UB121100s.
Those are the cheap Chinese AGMs recently talked about.
Little is known about their reliability in EV applications yet. Cor Van De
Water has a set on his truck that are still going strong after 6 months and
3,000 miles. Probably don't have the power of the Deka Intimidators, so
acceleration would decrease somewhat. They're $100 each with shipping.
A smaller, cheaper 8" motor could also be used, but acceleration and top
speed wouldn't be as good. Maybe 0-60 mph in 9 seconds, top speed around
100.
This conversion cost could be cut a LOT if a homeade Bonn charger and
homeade zener regs were used, along with doing your own adaptor plate. But
then it would be a car for a hobbyist, and not your average Joe. I have a
few ideas on how to do a similar setup for $6k. Even less to around $4k if a
used motor is chosen and the Zilla is forgone for a used DCP controller or
even a contactor setup, but acceleration performance would decline to a
sedate 0-60 around 11 seconds or so with the 600 amp DCP.
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates
starting at 1¢/min.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can't remember if this has been mentioned here.
My cousin sent me a link...
There's a very negative article on washingtonpost.com about
the Tesla Roadster. I made two comments (spot them if you can :-)
The comments outweigh the article, if people read them at all.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/21/AR2006072101515.html?referrer=emailarticle
OR
http://tinyurl.com/fln8z
(btw, like a geek, I actually tested to see
if tinyurl always gives out the same tinyurl
for a given long link - the hash table at work :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Forgot one thing - the Tesla has passed FMVSS crash testing as well. Crash
testing alone costs a typical $550k USD.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: July 26, 2006 8:18 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Tesla Motors unveiled (my comments)
Steve Powers wrote:
>> ...meets the requirements
What are your requirements? Comparing the Tesla to a VW Bug kit car is not
the same. May as well compare a Porsche Boxster to one - its closer.
The Lotus Elise has great torsional stability. Combine this with its double
wishbone suspension will give this car excellent cornering ability. The VW
Bug kit car will have slid out in the corner well before the Elise has come
close to its limits.
Also, will your $25k car NiMH really have the same range as the LiIon Tesla?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Steve Powers
Sent: July 26, 2006 4:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Tesla Motors unveiled (my comments)
75 - 79 Bug or later model if you want to import from Mexico (80 - 91)
Disc brake upgrade kit - make them power as well
replace body with fiberglass kit car
~ 300 V NiMH battery pack
locked in 2nd gear - no shifting
1k HV controller
heater and A/C out of Toyota hybrid
some interior mods to make it look different
Would cost - very roughly - $25k. Much less than a Tesla (or other) and
meets the requirements. Believe it or not, a 79 Bug kit car is still
supported and sustainable.
Steve
John Westlund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Steve Powers wrote:
>Even cars with 156 V / 1k controllers loaded with lead acid batteries
>will not beat my corolla off the line. Simply stated, it just isn't
>fast enough.
May I interest you in Blue Meanie? 156V of old Optima AGMs that need
replacing, Zilla 1k controller, and 9" ADC motor.
0-60 mph in 6 seconds, top speed around 125 mph. This is a 2,400 pound car.
AGMs and that setup will give the performance desired.
The kind of car outlined can be done. But it will require aerodynamic
modifications to cut drag coefficient. It will need to be a lightweight
chassis. This leaves out new cars.
But a classic, properly restored and painted, would probably sell pretty
good anyway if the conversion is very clean.
The setup you're asking for might look like this:
-WarP 9'' series DC motor x1 160 pounds $1,575 (EV Source)* -Deka
Intimidator Group 31 9A31 sealed lead acid battery x13
891 pounds $1,820 (Remy Battery)*
-Godzilla Controller(72-156V DC, 1,000 amp max, HEPI) x1 16 pounds $1,980
(EV Source)* -PFC 20 Charger x1 20 pounds $1,525 (EV Source)* -Rudman MkIIB
regs x13 $585 (EV Source)* -Iota 45 amp DC-DC converter (96-180Vin,
13.8Vout) x1 6 pounds $204 (EV Parts)* -E-Meter x1 $229 (Xantrex)*
-Solid-State Ceramic Heater Core x1 $75 (Grassroots EV)* -Adaptor Plate x1
15 pounds $800* -Miscallaneous components(Heat shrink tubing, fuses, steel
for battery racks, ect.) 100 pounds $1,000* -Donor Vehicle $2,000
(Preferably Datsun 1200, Honda CRX, or other lightweight/aerodynamic
vehicle) -Sheet metal, plastic, fiberglass, and other components for
aerodynamic modifications 30 pounds $100 -Nokian 205/70R15 LRR tires x4 $268
(Nokian)* -Redline MTL synthetic transmission oil $15 -alignment correction
to 0 camber, 0 toe is free with tire replacement
Shipping is assumed to cost 10% of all components marked with '*'.
Total: $13,182.10
With proper aero and efficiency mods, this would grant a converted vehicle
that could do 0-60 mph in ~ 7 seconds, with 2,600-2,800 pound weight
depending on what kind of small car, top out at over 120 mph, and do 80
miles range at 60 mph if consumption can be gotten down to 150
Wh/mile(Doable, but needs aero mods!).
In order to attract your common Joe with an old chassis, it needs to be a
classic renown and desired for a certain trait or look. Think of a classic
VW Bug, Datsun 1200, Mazda RX2, Fiat 600, or some such. A Honda CRX HF has
very good aero and might do the trick if the right "hot import" look is
achieved with modifications. The bug and Fiat have awful aero, but subtle
modifications could help greatly without dramatically altering the vehicle's
appearance.
The battery heaters would keep the desired range in winter-time use.
Also, the battery costs could be cut a bit and range slightly extended with
a set of Universal Battery UB121100s.
Those are the cheap Chinese AGMs recently talked about.
Little is known about their reliability in EV applications yet. Cor Van De
Water has a set on his truck that are still going strong after 6 months and
3,000 miles. Probably don't have the power of the Deka Intimidators, so
acceleration would decrease somewhat. They're $100 each with shipping.
A smaller, cheaper 8" motor could also be used, but acceleration and top
speed wouldn't be as good. Maybe 0-60 mph in 9 seconds, top speed around
100.
This conversion cost could be cut a LOT if a homeade Bonn charger and
homeade zener regs were used, along with doing your own adaptor plate. But
then it would be a car for a hobbyist, and not your average Joe. I have a
few ideas on how to do a similar setup for $6k. Even less to around $4k if a
used motor is chosen and the Zilla is forgone for a used DCP controller or
even a contactor setup, but acceleration performance would decline to a
sedate 0-60 around 11 seconds or so with the 600 amp DCP.
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates
starting at 1¢/min.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folks
A wrench in the works is always a possibility when trying to throw together
an EVent at the last minute.
This NEDRA race came together suddenly Sunday evening. The big motivating
factor was camera time with a major media outlet wanting to make a
documetary on electric drag racing (even though that media source is based
in Sydney, Australia)
Since Sunday evening I have been leaving messages with PIR track management
to verify availability of the track for the EVent (even though the PIR
entry page says the NHRA Late Night Drags were happening on Friday night
7/28)
I finally contacted the track manager Tuesday evening and discovered that
there were high school drags scheduled for Friday from 4 till 10pm.
But... the NHRA Late Night Drags were still a go for Saturday.
So... we are forced to re-schedule this EVent for Saturday the 29th from 6pm
till 12am.
On behalf of NEDRA and all the organizers I apologize for the screw-up.
Here is the updated press release for this EVent-
------------------
Subject: Electric Car Drag Racing at PIR 7/29/06
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: Electric Car Drag Racing at PIR 7/29/06
CONTACT:
Roy LeMeur
The National Electric Drag Racing Association
360 556 2105
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.nedra.com
*********************************************
EVENT:
"The NEDRA Wayland Invitational II" at Portland International Raceway on
Saturday, 7/29/06, 6pm till 12am.
*********************************************
NEDRA welcomes all media folks to come and see EVs beat gas cars at their
own game on the dragstrip. NEDRA racers spend pennies recharging their
vehicles between rounds and our vehicles run quicker and faster as the
batteries warm up during the charging and discharging process. There will be
a good variety of race vehicles, conversion EVs on display, electric bikes
and scooters, and an assortment of well-known EV personalities.
The action in the recharging area alone can provide great copy/video/audio.
NEDRA is hosting a documentary film crew from SBS TV's "Dateline" based in
Sydney, Australia at this EVent. www.sbs.com.au/dateline
For additional information on the NEDRA Wayland Invitational II please
contact Roy LeMeur or visit www.nedra.com. See electric drag racing videos
at www.plasmaboyracing.com
ABOUT NEDRA - The National Electric Drag Racing Association (NEDRA) exists
to increase public awareness of electric vehicle (EV) performance and to
encourage through competition, advances in electric vehicle technology.
NEDRA achieves this by organizing and sanctioning safe, silent and exciting
electric vehicle drag racing events.
NEDRA is a coalition of drag racing fans, electric drag racing vehicle
owners and drivers, individuals interested in promoting the sport of EV drag
racing, EV parts suppliers, EV manufacturers and other environmentally
concerned companies and individuals. Working together as a group, we put
excitement into electric vehicle drag racing.
Roy LeMeur
NEDRA NW Regional Race Director
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
360 556 2105
- END -
...
Roy LeMeur
NEDRA NW Regional Race Director
www.nedra.com
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If it's a 3.3hp motot this is a 99 GEM then? I've never actually seen one that
old in person, though I do have a 2000 GEM myself. The 99's are a 48 volt
system that used a Curtis controller and the like, they radically changed it in
2000 to a 72 volt system and GE components. I don't know if the 99's are as bad
as the 2000 and newer ones, but they are heavily integrated. You have a GE
controller that talks to their own custom printed wire board which also works
as a DC/DC converter and even interfaces with the charger to prevent you from
driving away while plugged in. The turn signals even go through the printed
wire board making most repairs an R&R job once you figure out what the problem
is (makes them $$$ sometimes unfortunately).
Ok that said, maybe the 99 isn't so difficult to work with. You'll have a sep
ex motor so you'll need to find a controller that will handle sep ex, and also
preferably do the reversing as well. As a thought, you might update it some and
drop in two extra batteries and make it a 72 volt car like the newer ones. If
the motor won't handle it I happen to have two spare take out 3.5hp motors from
a few 2000 GEM's which are rated for 72 volts.
From there the rest would just be reverse engineering all the wireing and
switches. Getting it to move probably wouldn't be all that difficult, it would
be getting the rest of the vehicle functions working which would.
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One way to test batteries is to watch sag. If the pack sags to below pack
voltage under acceleration when fresh you have trouble. The pack shouldn't
sag more than a few volts under load. Bouncing back to a high voltage is no
assurance that you have a good pack. If your pack is 120 nominal & it sags
to 108v the pack is dead. It should sit between 128 and 132v charged. It
will sag around 124 or so volts under load when fresh. The more it sags the
worse the pack or the more it is discharged. It's hard for a newbie to tell
a bad pack from a discharged one. Buyer beware. Take an experienced EV'er
if you can. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Rothenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 10:06 AM
Subject: EV Test drive
> So, I am going for an EV test drive on Friday morning.
> I don't know if the seller will allow me to do
> anything other than drive it...
> I was wondering if there's any tests I can do in
> short order with a multimeter that would be useful
> to figure out battery life, etc?
> (if they allow)
>
> Otherwise, I'm just checking that components
> are in good shape, I could do routine things myself,
> look at the rotors, kick the tires.
> I guess the big thing is the drive system,
> and it is not so susceptible to the problems
> like my ICE just had...oxy sensor, gasket, Cat.Cvt.
>
> Thanks
> Seth
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folks
A wrench in the works is always a possibility when trying to throw
together an EVent at the last minute.
This NEDRA race came together suddenly Sunday evening. The big
motivating factor was camera time with a major media outlet wanting to
make a documetary on electric drag racing (even though that media
source is based in Sydney, Australia)
Since Sunday evening I have been leaving messages with PIR track
management to verify availability of the track for the EVent (even
though the PIR entry page says the NHRA Late Night Drags were
happening on Friday night 7/28)
I finally contacted the track manager Tuesday evening and discovered
that there were high school drags scheduled for Friday from 4 till
10pm.
But... the NHRA Late Night Drags were still a go for Saturday.
So... we are forced to re-schedule this EVent for Saturday the 29th
from 6pm till 12am.
On behalf of NEDRA and all the organizers I apologize for the screw-up.
Here is the updated press release for this EVent-
------------------
Subject: Electric Car Drag Racing at PIR 7/29/06
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: Electric Car Drag Racing at PIR 7/29/06
CONTACT:
Roy LeMeur
The National Electric Drag Racing Association
360 556 2105
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.nedra.com
*********************************************
EVENT:
"The NEDRA Wayland Invitational II" at Portland International Raceway
on Saturday, 7/29/06, 6pm till 12am.
*********************************************
NEDRA welcomes all media folks to come and see EVs beat gas cars at
their own game on the dragstrip. NEDRA racers spend pennies recharging
their vehicles between rounds and our vehicles run quicker and faster
as the batteries warm up during the charging and discharging process.
There will be a good variety of race vehicles, conversion EVs on
display, electric bikes and scooters, and an assortment of well-known
EV personalities.
The action in the recharging area alone can provide great copy/video/audio.
NEDRA is hosting a documentary film crew from SBS TV's "Dateline"
based in Sydney, Australia at this EVent. www.sbs.com.au/dateline
For additional information on the NEDRA Wayland Invitational II please
contact Roy LeMeur or visit www.nedra.com. See electric drag racing
videos at www.plasmaboyracing.com
ABOUT NEDRA - The National Electric Drag Racing Association (NEDRA)
exists to increase public awareness of electric vehicle (EV)
performance and to encourage through competition, advances in electric
vehicle technology. NEDRA achieves this by organizing and sanctioning
safe, silent and exciting electric vehicle drag racing events.
NEDRA is a coalition of drag racing fans, electric drag racing vehicle
owners and drivers, individuals interested in promoting the sport of
EV drag racing, EV parts suppliers, EV manufacturers and other
environmentally concerned companies and individuals. Working together
as a group, we put excitement into electric vehicle drag racing.
Roy LeMeur
NEDRA NW Regional Race Director
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
360 556 2105
- END -
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One thing you can do to increase range is to use 1st and second gear. Your
amps will be less and your motor will not heat up as much. Lawrence
Rhodes..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 5:50 AM
Subject: Upgrading to a higher voltage
> Hi All,
>
> Currently on my fiat 126 EV i am running 72 volts of trojan scs225.
>
> Its alright in terms of performance but climbing hills when 60% SOC is a
bit
> tiresome. I am driving in 3rd gear all the time which i cringe when the
amp
> meter reads more than 150 amps and my battery voltage sags to about 66
> volts.
>
> I would like to run an extra battery to 84 volts. That way i assume that i
> can run pretty much 2nd gear all the time. at the moment 2nd gear only
gets
> me to 50 km/hr tops on flats. I am hoping that the extra voltage will rev
> out the motor a little more to get me around 60-70km/hr on the flat.
>
> And hence with higher revs, i can use less current in 2nd gear than 3rd
gear
> at the same speed.
>
> My aim is to increase the pittyful range of around 20 kms of my car to
> hopefully around the 30km mark.
>
> Has nyone done that.
>
> I was told by Alltrax that the controller can handle 84 volts. But got to
> make sure that the voltage never exceeds 100 volts.
>
> So for a fully charged pack of 7 12volt batts i can just make the 90 volt
> limit where the logic controller will stop the PWM ing.
>
> I think that this would be a better way to increase range other than
change
> the batteries to 6 volters which will be too damn heavy or increase the
> voltage to 96 volts.
>
> Cheers
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> New year, new job - there's more than 100,00 jobs at SEEK
>
http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Eseek%2Ecom%2Eau&_t=752315885&_r=Jan05_tagline&_m=EXT
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Portland international Raceways
Saturday night under the lights...
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: Wayland invitational #2
> Be *where*???
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 12:28 PM
> Subject: Wayland invitational #2
>
>
> >
> > Well the definition of a Wayland invitational.. BE there... with no
> warnings... Just BE there.
> > Not can you.. Just BE there..
> > Forget Home
> > Forget Familly
> > Forget Company..
> >
> > Just be there and race.. and make Plasma boy look good.
> >
> > If we actually had more than a week to make it happen, It just would not
> be the same..
> >
> > We Got chargers
> > We got the breaker box
> > Ot's got the Cam Lok and Cables
> > Where's my Dot leagle drag slicks...?
> >
> > We have charger back up.. I hope...
> >
> > So we Gonna be A Racin' Friday night.. with the Gas Guys.. and a few
more
> TV cameras, GeeZ not again... I have my Mug on wayy too many feet for
Video
> tape this year...
> >
> > So come on down to PIR from about 5 PM to 1AM This Friday night for the
> 2nd Ever Wayland Invitational.
> >
> > Madman Says we are going to have a Blast....
> > Here's to fun and no vaporized parts!
> >
> > Be there!
> >
> > Now back to tame EV list post...
> > ScuZZ the tire smoke..
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Warning...smart ass response to follow....
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
One way to test batteries is to watch sag. If the pack sags to below pack
voltage under acceleration when fresh you have trouble. The pack shouldn't
sag more than a few volts under load.
Hmmm, I must have battery trouble, because fully charged, my pack goes
from 391V to 240V under load....that's a 151V sag...a bit more than a
few volts :-) It's about 30% discharged after just 10 seconds or so,
too. Does pulling 1000 continuous amps out of each 24 lb. battery and
have anything to do with it?
Just having fun with ya, Lawrence!
See Ya...John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
One way to test batteries is to watch sag. If the pack sags to below pack
voltage under acceleration when fresh you have trouble. The pack shouldn't
sag more than a few volts under load. Bouncing back to a high voltage is no
assurance that you have a good pack. If your pack is 120 nominal & it sags
to 108v the pack is dead. It should sit between 128 and 132v charged. It
will sag around 124 or so volts under load when fresh. The more it sags the
worse the pack or the more it is discharged. It's hard for a newbie to tell
a bad pack from a discharged one. Buyer beware. Take an experienced EV'er
if you can. Lawrence Rhodes.....
Tricky. I have noticed that AGMs can become exceptionally stiff when
dried out. On the old pack I could pull 200a and still not drop below
12vpb (52ah pack). Then after 14ah down, the batteries would completely die.
Currently the Prizm drops to about 285 volts when fresh (charged,
sitting 24 hours) at 200a and about 275 volts @120a when down 20ah.
That's about as far as I like to go.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello list members.
My third EV project will be a sports car. I am finally getting past the
design and seach for cheap parts stage and now have to make some choices. I
welcome any suggestions or comments from the experienced members of the list.
I want to build a sporty EV that looks great, goes fast, goes far. OK stop
laughing.
Here is what I am working with:
1988 RX7 Gen 2 Turbo - has a great body, new paint, disks all around, 5
speed, dead engine. Nice looking car. Cda of about 5.95
Choice of twin motors
- Two Prestolite 4001 twin shaft. These can easily be coupled with a spline
coupler.
- Two ADC 203-06-4001M single shaft. These could be belt/chain coupled or
sent to Jim to add some tandem magic.
Choice on tranny
- existing RX7 5 speed. Likely need a race clutch. Rear end?
- Powerglide 2 speed set up for drag racing manual shift
I will need to make an adapter plate depending on the setup.
Controller
Zilla 2K 300 V if Otmar will return my email so I can get it ordered.
Parallel/Series switching option
Batteries
I am thinking of a hybrid battery pack using Hawkers for punch and NiMH for
range. I have some used M-95 NiMh packs from a Ranger EV, tested good to
+80AH. I replace a few of the weaker cells.
This is the same type of configuration I used on my EZE sports bike. The
Hawkers act like big capacitors.
I was thinking of a 192V system with 16 Odyssey 16AH pb (3.1kwh) plus 16 M-95
NiMh (18.2kwh). Total pack weight 896 lbs. Estimated range of 70-100 miles.
Guestimate on vehicle weight is 3200- 3300 lbs. That only leaves me 350 lbs
to max GVWR of 3635.
Questions to the group:
1) Will the 8" ADC give me a whole lot more than the smaller 7.25"
Prestolite. The Presolite is an easy tandem setup. I would need to send the
ADC to Jim at Hi-Torque. Jim, pm me with how much?
2) The Powerglide is great for drag racing but is a 5 speed better for mostly
street use. I want to be able to do a burn out and maybe give some friends a
good first impression of an EV. Edmonton is mostly flat.
3) Has anyone else had success with a hybrid battery pack. The biggest
complaint is the complexity of the BMS/charger setup.
4) Should I go higher on pack voltage. 240V?. GWVR weight becomes an issue.
Pack would be over 1100lbs
5) Given the above, can I hope to see a 13 second quarter. What chould I
change/add to make it faster.
Thanks
Ray Wong
Ezesport
---------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
