EV Digest 5688
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) re: GEM Repair / Modification
by "David Sherritze" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Car Insurance in PA
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: BMS poll take 2
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Want to build a sporty EV
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Replacement resistor for Albright/Curtis contactor.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Details of the SmartEV trial (in UK)
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: GEM repair/modification
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Fw: Contactors not working. Bad Resistor.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Upgrading to a higher voltage (comment)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Want to build a sporty EV
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Washington Post article
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Replacement resistor for Albright/Curtis contactor.
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Replacement resistor for Albright/Curtis contactor.
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Want to build a sporty EV
by Ray Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Details of the SmartEV trial (in UK)
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Washington Post article
by "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Want to build a sporty EV
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV Test drive
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Want to build a sporty EV
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Upgrading to a higher voltage (comment)
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Want to build a sporty EV
by Ray Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: GEM repair/modification
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Upgrading to a higher voltage
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I own a 2002 GEM car with a reprogrammed but stock GE T-2
controller, larger motor and I use individual battery chargers
instead of the stock Zivan NG-1 charger.
I highly recommend you do your research first. But I have wondered
if you could simplify the system by using a contactor for power shut
off, fuse, and something like the Alltrax 7245 controller with the
stock acceleratior pedal.
For instrumentation add an Ampmeter and Voltmeter.
Then use a small 12 volt battery for the 12 devices (lights, wiper
etc) or a DC-DC convertor instead of the expensive Printed Wiring
Board (PWB).
Use individual battery chargers (like Deltrans) which would be less
expensive than the Zivan and would be a form of battery mgt.
While you would have a simpler less expensive and less complex
system. The downside is you will not have the BDI functionality (no
error codes, battery status, speedometer, and odometer).
Like I stated, do your research first. You can download a GEM
service manual complete with wiring diagrams and design an alternate
system. Then have someone who has build an EV before, double check
concepts before spending money and placing safety at risk.
Just thoughts
David
>
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 21:53:17 -1000
> From: "martin emde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: GEM Repair/Modification
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> Content-Disposition: inline
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Greetings,
> I was recently given a GEM electric car that's missing the
controller,
> charger, and wiring. The motor is still installed and in working
order. I
> would like to install an after market controller to get the car
going
> again. Does anyone know of a controller that will work with the
stock 72V,
> 3.3 hp motor (I think it's a GE D-6300 motor)? And if one exists
will it
> get the car going faster than 25mph? Any help with this project
is greatly
> appreciated. Thanks.
> Martin
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Try Geico. According to them my EV is still a Ford Escort whether its
powered by gas, rubber bands or even batteries.
Progressive Insurance may even be approachable.
I'm not in PA but just over the Mason Dixon Line.
Chip
On Jul 26, 2006, at 9:19 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: July 25, 2006 10:04:56 PM EDT
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: Car Insurance in PA
OK OK I know this has been hashed out before so please dont zap
me. ;)
I live in Pennsylvania and have been denied auto insurance for my
conversion that I have not even begun yet.
So I am looking for insurance for my not even started EV Conversion.
Anybody in PA with a EV please contact me off list with your
insurance company name so I can contact them.
Thanks
Mike G.
turbo at city-net dot com You know the drill to
decifer the address above ;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Every poll has it's flaws I reckon.
Only 20 have posted their BMS status. I think that's still way too few,
but it makes for still less than a couple percent of the EVDL list that
has any BMS at all.
Mike
--- "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Jul 20, 2006, at 1:05 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > The options are:
> > 1 I have nothing (use flooded)
> > 2 I have nothing (use advanced PbA or other)
> > 3 I monitor each battery, no action
> > 4 I burn off (shunt/resistor) extra charge based on voltage.
> > 5 I shuttle extra charge around batteries
> >
>
> Ya missed the option of, "I have individual chargers (or individual
> finish chargers)"
>
> I don't fit into any of the defined catagories, but I do actively
> manage charging to prevent harm to my AGM pack. I finish charge with
> a
> 10 bank Deltran charger. [its on bulk charge right now!]
>
> Paul G.
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brown, Wayland and Otmar have all done two motor no tranny cars. I don't
know if you can get away with it with two smaller motors. The eights will
work for sure. Maybe if you limit top speed to 70mph. Trannyless cars are
suprisingly efficient & simple to drive. You have the option of using
series to parallel shifting. Eliminating the tranny saves weight. Sounds
like a fun project. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Wong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 12:37 PM
Subject: Want to build a sporty EV
> Hello list members.
>
> My third EV project will be a sports car. I am finally getting past
the design and seach for cheap parts stage and now have to make some
choices. I welcome any suggestions or comments from the experienced members
of the list.
>
> I want to build a sporty EV that looks great, goes fast, goes far. OK
stop laughing.
>
> Here is what I am working with:
>
> 1988 RX7 Gen 2 Turbo - has a great body, new paint, disks all around, 5
speed, dead engine. Nice looking car. Cda of about 5.95
>
> Choice of twin motors
> - Two Prestolite 4001 twin shaft. These can easily be coupled with a
spline coupler.
> - Two ADC 203-06-4001M single shaft. These could be belt/chain coupled
or sent to Jim to add some tandem magic.
>
> Choice on tranny
> - existing RX7 5 speed. Likely need a race clutch. Rear end?
> - Powerglide 2 speed set up for drag racing manual shift
> I will need to make an adapter plate depending on the setup.
>
> Controller
>
> Zilla 2K 300 V if Otmar will return my email so I can get it ordered.
> Parallel/Series switching option
>
> Batteries
>
> I am thinking of a hybrid battery pack using Hawkers for punch and NiMH
for range. I have some used M-95 NiMh packs from a Ranger EV, tested good
to +80AH. I replace a few of the weaker cells.
> This is the same type of configuration I used on my EZE sports bike. The
Hawkers act like big capacitors.
>
> I was thinking of a 192V system with 16 Odyssey 16AH pb (3.1kwh) plus 16
M-95 NiMh (18.2kwh). Total pack weight 896 lbs. Estimated range of 70-100
miles.
>
> Guestimate on vehicle weight is 3200- 3300 lbs. That only leaves me 350
lbs to max GVWR of 3635.
>
> Questions to the group:
>
> 1) Will the 8" ADC give me a whole lot more than the smaller 7.25"
Prestolite. The Presolite is an easy tandem setup. I would need to send
the ADC to Jim at Hi-Torque. Jim, pm me with how much?
> 2) The Powerglide is great for drag racing but is a 5 speed better for
mostly street use. I want to be able to do a burn out and maybe give some
friends a good first impression of an EV. Edmonton is mostly flat.
> 3) Has anyone else had success with a hybrid battery pack. The biggest
complaint is the complexity of the BMS/charger setup.
> 4) Should I go higher on pack voltage. 240V?. GWVR weight becomes an
issue. Pack would be over 1100lbs
> 5) Given the above, can I hope to see a 13 second quarter. What chould
I change/add to make it faster.
>
> Thanks
>
> Ray Wong
> Ezesport
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My resistor crumbled to bits on me. Could someone suggest a replacement
resistor value for my 120v Albright/Curtis contactor? Thanks. Lawrence
Rhodes.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Apologies for cross posting this to several lists but I know that not
everyone is in the same list.
After a week of tracking down the person in charge of the Smart EV
corporate trial I found out some facts and figures:
It will be using a (quote) 50KW Brushless DC motor, standard Smart
gearbox and electric heating elements.
It will supposedly weigh 104kg more than the standard SmartForTwo,
have a limited top speed of 70 mph and a 0-30mph of 6.5 seconds. (Why
they don't give the 0-60 I don't know) They're going to use Power
Assisted Steering too to help compensate for the extra weight.
Now for the expensive part:
They want:
£1125+17.5% VAT for the intial downpayment
Then £375 +17.5% VAT per month for 47 months based on 10,000 miles
per year.
Oh, and like GM, they want the car back at the end of the trial.
I'm really disappointed as I was hoping I could get one for my
business. It was much more than I could realistically afford. They
suggested I got sponsorship but I really don't see that happening.
I'm gutted.
Anyway - I'll keep trying to find someone to sponsor me and see what
happens.
Nikki.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Martin,
be careful not to spend more money than the nEV is worth. A used
GEM can be bought for little money, where as buying parts as a
GEM fixer upper may cost you much more.
History: nEVs are a very cheap way to get into electrics:
cheap design, cheap short-lived pack using 12VDC deep-cycle
batteries - not long-lived 6VDC traction batteries, cheap
inefficient charger that takes way too long to charge and only
works off an 110 VAC outlet overnight, and on, and on ...)
http://search.ebay.com/electric-car_W0QQcatrefZC3QQfromZR2QQfsooZ2QQfsopZ3QQsbrsrtZd
You can look but don't buy from:
http://www.zapworld.com/cars/salecars2.asp
But if you have your heart set on spending $$$, see the EV parts
supplier links on: http://www.eaaev.org/eaalinks.html
GEM's original 72VDC controller and charger were cheap and wimpy.
I recommend the PFC chargers because of their flexibility and
better bang for the buck$
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/chargers3.htm
But an alternate for a 72 VDC nEV pack is a Delta-Q charger that
will be a no-brainer whether you plug into 110VAC or 240VAC using
the same charger http://www.delta-q.com/ A Tropica EV driver has
had good experiences with a 72VDC Delta-Q charger.
(See there are all kinds of ways of spending more money than the
nEV is worth. Even more ways listed below: )
A GEM has six group 27 12VDC deep-cycle batteries as a cheap 72VDC
pack that you can not discharge beyond 50% without aging/killing
the deep-cycle batteries. The GEM may be rated at 30 miles, but
discharging beyond 15-20 miles you are hurting the pack.
If you want to do mods to the nEV, consider changing the 72VDC
pack using light 6VDC traction batteries that are designed to be
deeply discharged
(i.e.: you can choose from US125's to the lighter US-1800's
http://www.usbattery.com/pages/6vgolf.htm
While some EV'rs have had good luck using 8V wet-cell batteries,
I recommend you stick with the 6 volter's. A 72VDC pack using 8V
batteries would be nine 8VDC traction wet-cell batteries
http://www.usbattery.com/pages/8vgolf.htm )
If you are trying to get more performance out of the nEV, you will
need to determine if there is a mechanical governor on the motor
that is the limiting factor on how fast the nEV will go.
If so the governor will need to be disabled. If not, then it is the
controller/motor design that can be changed to boost the speed.
But legally, you are not suppose to go faster than the nEV's
design (<20 MPH on a 35 MPH road). You won't have the brakes,
suspension, or steering for the higher speeds / higher stored
kinetic energy.
But using traction batteries and a smart battery charger will give
you more range, longer pack life, and faster recharge times.
A PFC-30 charger and an EAA AVCON Adapter box would let you charge
very fast off a public AVCON charging station (only good if you
have public AVCON stations in your area. See evchargernews.com ).
*** The best place for nEV discussions is on the NEVS group:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/NEVs/
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
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. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> My mistake. The spark arresting resistor is actually a diode. Radio Shack
> pn 276-1144. If you reverse the polarity on your contactor it will still
> work but will draw more current and destroy the diode. Lawrence
Rhodes....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 10:42 AM
> Subject: Contactors not working. Bad Resistor.
>
>
> > I fixed this problem almost immediately. Seems the two Curtis/Albright
> > contactors in the Aspire wouldn't close. The 12volt system drew down to
> > 4.5vdc. Hot 12v supply lines. I disconnected one contactor and the
other
> > one worked. I tried to connect the other and the supply drew down again
> and
> > that contactor wouldn't close. The 12v spark arresting resistor was
warm.
> > I tried to take it off and it cracked in half. The leftovers just
> crumbled
> > in my fingers. Could someone tell me the value of the Curtis/Albright
> > 120vdc Contactor 12v system resistor? After the resistor broke the
> > contactor worked but I don't want to burn the 12v contacts. The orginal
> > resistor lasted 5 years. Is there a replacement that might do better
and
> > not crumble after a few years use? Lawrence Rhodes......
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence (and all),
*Disregarding efficiency difference* gearing has NOTHING
to do with your range ('course, provided, you try to move
at the same speed on different gears). If you have 10kWh on board and
consume 0.2kWh/mile, you will go 10/0.2=50 miles period.
Gearing is NOT part of the equation. The power is power.
On the first gear motor amps are less but the voltage
is more because of higher RPM (and so BEMF). This results in the
same power. The battery amps are the same, and so is your range.
Now, practical <100% efficient systems have different
efficiency at different RPMs. Induction motors have
terrible efficiency at very low RPM, so going 35mph
on the third gear with such a system may reduce your range
in half, but this is not theoretical difference (less motor
amps = more range) you seem to imply.
Victor
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
One thing you can do to increase range is to use 1st and second gear. Your
amps will be less and your motor will not heat up as much. Lawrence
Rhodes..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 5:50 AM
Subject: Upgrading to a higher voltage
Hi All,
Currently on my fiat 126 EV i am running 72 volts of trojan scs225.
Its alright in terms of performance but climbing hills when 60% SOC is a
bit
tiresome. I am driving in 3rd gear all the time which i cringe when the
amp
meter reads more than 150 amps and my battery voltage sags to about 66
volts.
I would like to run an extra battery to 84 volts. That way i assume that i
can run pretty much 2nd gear all the time. at the moment 2nd gear only
gets
me to 50 km/hr tops on flats. I am hoping that the extra voltage will rev
out the motor a little more to get me around 60-70km/hr on the flat.
And hence with higher revs, i can use less current in 2nd gear than 3rd
gear
at the same speed.
My aim is to increase the pittyful range of around 20 kms of my car to
hopefully around the 30km mark.
Has nyone done that.
I was told by Alltrax that the controller can handle 84 volts. But got to
make sure that the voltage never exceeds 100 volts.
So for a fully charged pack of 7 12volt batts i can just make the 90 volt
limit where the logic controller will stop the PWM ing.
I think that this would be a better way to increase range other than
change
the batteries to 6 volters which will be too damn heavy or increase the
voltage to 96 volts.
Cheers
_________________________________________________________________
New year, new job - there's more than 100,00 jobs at SEEK
http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Eseek%2Ecom%2Eau&_t=752315885&_r=Jan05_tagline&_m=EXT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Look at the RX 7's aready converted to get an idea of your
performance and range will be:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/type/MAZD
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
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. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth,
What did you find negative in the article (other than the last line)?
I was steeling myself for a good angry but it never came. I thought
the article was pretty entusiastic about the Telsa.
-Mike
On 7/26/06, Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I can't remember if this has been mentioned here.
My cousin sent me a link...
There's a very negative article on washingtonpost.com about
the Tesla Roadster. I made two comments (spot them if you can :-)
The comments outweigh the article, if people read them at all.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/21/AR2006072101515.html?referrer=emailarticle
OR
http://tinyurl.com/fln8z
(btw, like a geek, I actually tested to see
if tinyurl always gives out the same tinyurl
for a given long link - the hash table at work :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
My resistor crumbled to bits on me. Could someone suggest a replacement
resistor value for my 120v Albright/Curtis contactor? Thanks. Lawrence
Rhodes.....
Thought I replied to this one...
Are you sure its a resistor? Most of the time the Curtis Albright comes
with a diode to absorb the inductive kick when the coil is turned off.
If you go back thru the archives you can find suggestions on transorbs
that are even better than the diode. Otherwise any decent diode will work.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not sure what you mean by a resistor for spark suppression. I think
the component you are talking about is (was!) a diode. (An undersized
one, judging by the fact that it died). That may be why you got no
replies; nobody understood what you are asking for.
I'm not sure what value of diode is needed for an Albright coil, but I'd
bet that any of the EV parts suppliers could help you out. Give 'em a call.
hth,
Andrew
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
My resistor crumbled to bits on me. Could someone suggest a replacement
resistor value for my 120v Albright/Curtis contactor? Thanks. Lawrence
Rhodes.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have carefully looked at the other RX7 and conversed by email with some of
the builders. Great builds. Fast EVs.
Big questions. How to get more range without giving up performance.
Ezesport
bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Look at the RX 7's aready converted to get an idea of your
performance and range will be:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/type/MAZD
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Now for the expensive part:
>
> They want:
>
> £1125+17.5% VAT for the intial downpayment
> Then £375 +17.5% VAT per month for 47 months based on 10,000 miles
> per year.
>
> Oh, and like GM, they want the car back at the end of the trial.
>
Forget them - how is the Minor coming? Isn't an electrified Hebe
smarter than a Smart?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why do you call this a "very negative article"?
On 7/26/06, Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I can't remember if this has been mentioned here.
My cousin sent me a link...
There's a very negative article on washingtonpost.com about
the Tesla Roadster. I made two comments (spot them if you can :-)
The comments outweigh the article, if people read them at all.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/21/AR2006072101515.html?referrer=emailarticle
OR
http://tinyurl.com/fln8z
(btw, like a geek, I actually tested to see
if tinyurl always gives out the same tinyurl
for a given long link - the hash table at work :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ray, I have been looking into the a similar setup for my next project. I
really like the Wayland/Otmar/Joule Injected route, going with 2 DC motors
mechanically in series then use a Zilla to have a electric 2 speed (series
and parallel). Then forget the transmission. Do as Matt does with his
Nissan 300zx and directly use a Nissan R200V (Limited Slip) Rear End.
Matt's Nissan 240SX is a good daily driver and pulls 13s in the 1/4 mile.
Use a higher voltage pack to keep the voltage at max allowable while under
hard acceleration.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ray Wong
Sent: July 26, 2006 12:37 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Want to build a sporty EV
Hello list members.
My third EV project will be a sports car. I am finally getting past the
design and seach for cheap parts stage and now have to make some choices. I
welcome any suggestions or comments from the experienced members of the
list.
I want to build a sporty EV that looks great, goes fast, goes far. OK
stop laughing.
Here is what I am working with:
1988 RX7 Gen 2 Turbo - has a great body, new paint, disks all around, 5
speed, dead engine. Nice looking car. Cda of about 5.95
Choice of twin motors
- Two Prestolite 4001 twin shaft. These can easily be coupled with a
spline coupler.
- Two ADC 203-06-4001M single shaft. These could be belt/chain coupled
or sent to Jim to add some tandem magic.
Choice on tranny
- existing RX7 5 speed. Likely need a race clutch. Rear end?
- Powerglide 2 speed set up for drag racing manual shift
I will need to make an adapter plate depending on the setup.
Controller
Zilla 2K 300 V if Otmar will return my email so I can get it ordered.
Parallel/Series switching option
Batteries
I am thinking of a hybrid battery pack using Hawkers for punch and NiMH
for range. I have some used M-95 NiMh packs from a Ranger EV, tested good
to +80AH. I replace a few of the weaker cells.
This is the same type of configuration I used on my EZE sports bike. The
Hawkers act like big capacitors.
I was thinking of a 192V system with 16 Odyssey 16AH pb (3.1kwh) plus 16
M-95 NiMh (18.2kwh). Total pack weight 896 lbs. Estimated range of 70-100
miles.
Guestimate on vehicle weight is 3200- 3300 lbs. That only leaves me 350
lbs to max GVWR of 3635.
Questions to the group:
1) Will the 8" ADC give me a whole lot more than the smaller 7.25"
Prestolite. The Presolite is an easy tandem setup. I would need to send
the ADC to Jim at Hi-Torque. Jim, pm me with how much?
2) The Powerglide is great for drag racing but is a 5 speed better for
mostly street use. I want to be able to do a burn out and maybe give some
friends a good first impression of an EV. Edmonton is mostly flat.
3) Has anyone else had success with a hybrid battery pack. The biggest
complaint is the complexity of the BMS/charger setup.
4) Should I go higher on pack voltage. 240V?. GWVR weight becomes an
issue. Pack would be over 1100lbs
5) Given the above, can I hope to see a 13 second quarter. What chould I
change/add to make it faster.
Thanks
Ray Wong
Ezesport
---------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, this depends on many conditions.
Precise answer is too complicated, but in general
allowing ~10% voltage sag for normal acceleration is very acceptable.
Victor
One way to test batteries is to watch sag. If the pack sags to below
pack
voltage under acceleration when fresh you have trouble. The pack
shouldn't
sag more than a few volts under load.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
what you need is a powerful electromagnet, so you can drive behind a big
truck and use the magnet to draw your car towards the metal structure on
the truck to assist in pulling you down the road. :)
There is no magic bullet, less weight == better performance,
but less weight == less battery == less range.
Lithium batteries == less weight == high cost
It would be nice if there was a lightweight electric energy storage
system, but so far doesn't exist. Maybe the compressed air approach,
build a tube-frame chassis with large diameter tubes full of high
pressure air. just don't crash.
Jack
Ray Wong wrote:
I have carefully looked at the other RX7 and conversed by email with some of
the builders. Great builds. Fast EVs.
Big questions. How to get more range without giving up performance.
Ezesport
bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Look at the RX 7's aready converted to get an idea of your
performance and range will be:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/type/MAZD
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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--- Begin Message ---
HI All,
Lets say if we are travelling at the same speed on different gears, 2nd and
3rd in different cars of equivalence.
you would be using less current in 2nd gear than 3rd gear due to a higher
rpm.
Now, you would need less torque in general driving in 2nd gear because of
the higher step up ratio of the gearbox to maintain the same speed as if
driving in 3rd gear. This is because current is directly proportional to
torque generated. Hence less torque is required at the motor in 2nd gear.
My other reasoning of driving in a lower gear is to get the motor spinning
in its sweet spot of around 3800 and a little higher. Lower currents also
mean less power loss through cabling switching mosfets (even if its only a
very small percentage) and longer battery lifetime.
Lower current will also produce smaller voltage sag due to the smaller
currents being drawn from the pack in total.
And also, a higher rev will let me regen more effectively. I am going to
test out my PWM regen module regening to a maxwell supercap shortly. Will
let people know the results.
Cheers
From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Upgrading to a higher voltage (comment)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 13:31:33 -0700
Lawrence (and all),
*Disregarding efficiency difference* gearing has NOTHING
to do with your range ('course, provided, you try to move
at the same speed on different gears). If you have 10kWh on board and
consume 0.2kWh/mile, you will go 10/0.2=50 miles period.
Gearing is NOT part of the equation. The power is power.
On the first gear motor amps are less but the voltage
is more because of higher RPM (and so BEMF). This results in the
same power. The battery amps are the same, and so is your range.
Now, practical <100% efficient systems have different
efficiency at different RPMs. Induction motors have
terrible efficiency at very low RPM, so going 35mph
on the third gear with such a system may reduce your range
in half, but this is not theoretical difference (less motor
amps = more range) you seem to imply.
Victor
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
One thing you can do to increase range is to use 1st and second gear.
Your
amps will be less and your motor will not heat up as much. Lawrence
Rhodes..
----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Chew"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 5:50 AM
Subject: Upgrading to a higher voltage
Hi All,
Currently on my fiat 126 EV i am running 72 volts of trojan scs225.
Its alright in terms of performance but climbing hills when 60% SOC is a
bit
tiresome. I am driving in 3rd gear all the time which i cringe when the
amp
meter reads more than 150 amps and my battery voltage sags to about 66
volts.
I would like to run an extra battery to 84 volts. That way i assume that
i
can run pretty much 2nd gear all the time. at the moment 2nd gear only
gets
me to 50 km/hr tops on flats. I am hoping that the extra voltage will rev
out the motor a little more to get me around 60-70km/hr on the flat.
And hence with higher revs, i can use less current in 2nd gear than 3rd
gear
at the same speed.
My aim is to increase the pittyful range of around 20 kms of my car to
hopefully around the 30km mark.
Has nyone done that.
I was told by Alltrax that the controller can handle 84 volts. But got to
make sure that the voltage never exceeds 100 volts.
So for a fully charged pack of 7 12volt batts i can just make the 90 volt
limit where the logic controller will stop the PWM ing.
I think that this would be a better way to increase range other than
change
the batteries to 6 volters which will be too damn heavy or increase the
voltage to 96 volts.
Cheers
_________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
I think you would need a higher voltage system for the no transmission setup
with series parallel switching, somewhere around 288-312 volts or higher if I
read the ADC 203-06-4001 motor rpm graphs correctly.
If I hope to use the M-95 NiMh batteries, with Hawker boost, the batteries
would weigh about 1500 lbs at 312 volts.
From my motor plots it would seem that the Prestolite 4001 motors peak out at
a lower voltage than the ADC 203-06-4001. A pair would probably work fine at
240 volts whereas the ADC wants to see 288 or higher. (assuming Uve's
parameters are correct). On the motor charts, the two motors are not much
different. Anyone with some first hand experience.
Ezesport
Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ray, I have been looking into the a similar setup for my next project. I
really like the Wayland/Otmar/Joule Injected route, going with 2 DC motors
mechanically in series then use a Zilla to have a electric 2 speed (series
and parallel). Then forget the transmission. Do as Matt does with his
Nissan 300zx and directly use a Nissan R200V (Limited Slip) Rear End.
Matt's Nissan 240SX is a good daily driver and pulls 13s in the 1/4 mile.
Use a higher voltage pack to keep the voltage at max allowable while under
hard acceleration.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ray Wong
Sent: July 26, 2006 12:37 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Want to build a sporty EV
Hello list members.
My third EV project will be a sports car. I am finally getting past the
design and seach for cheap parts stage and now have to make some choices. I
welcome any suggestions or comments from the experienced members of the
list.
I want to build a sporty EV that looks great, goes fast, goes far. OK
stop laughing.
Here is what I am working with:
1988 RX7 Gen 2 Turbo - has a great body, new paint, disks all around, 5
speed, dead engine. Nice looking car. Cda of about 5.95
Choice of twin motors
- Two Prestolite 4001 twin shaft. These can easily be coupled with a
spline coupler.
- Two ADC 203-06-4001M single shaft. These could be belt/chain coupled
or sent to Jim to add some tandem magic.
Choice on tranny
- existing RX7 5 speed. Likely need a race clutch. Rear end?
- Powerglide 2 speed set up for drag racing manual shift
I will need to make an adapter plate depending on the setup.
Controller
Zilla 2K 300 V if Otmar will return my email so I can get it ordered.
Parallel/Series switching option
Batteries
I am thinking of a hybrid battery pack using Hawkers for punch and NiMH
for range. I have some used M-95 NiMh packs from a Ranger EV, tested good
to +80AH. I replace a few of the weaker cells.
This is the same type of configuration I used on my EZE sports bike. The
Hawkers act like big capacitors.
I was thinking of a 192V system with 16 Odyssey 16AH pb (3.1kwh) plus 16
M-95 NiMh (18.2kwh). Total pack weight 896 lbs. Estimated range of 70-100
miles.
Guestimate on vehicle weight is 3200- 3300 lbs. That only leaves me 350
lbs to max GVWR of 3635.
Questions to the group:
1) Will the 8" ADC give me a whole lot more than the smaller 7.25"
Prestolite. The Presolite is an easy tandem setup. I would need to send
the ADC to Jim at Hi-Torque. Jim, pm me with how much?
2) The Powerglide is great for drag racing but is a 5 speed better for
mostly street use. I want to be able to do a burn out and maybe give some
friends a good first impression of an EV. Edmonton is mostly flat.
3) Has anyone else had success with a hybrid battery pack. The biggest
complaint is the complexity of the BMS/charger setup.
4) Should I go higher on pack voltage. 240V?. GWVR weight becomes an
issue. Pack would be over 1100lbs
5) Given the above, can I hope to see a 13 second quarter. What chould I
change/add to make it faster.
Thanks
Ray Wong
Ezesport
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
bruce parmenter wrote:
> be careful not to spend more money than the nEV is worth. A used
> GEM can be bought for little money, where as buying parts as a
> GEM fixer upper may cost you much more.
This is sound advice. You might in fact come out ahead by parting out
this car (for a profit?), and picking up a complete running one for
yourself.
> History: nEVs are a very cheap way to get into electrics:
> cheap design, cheap short-lived pack using 12VDC deep-cycle
> batteries - not long-lived 6VDC traction batteries,
If your GEM was one fited with the DEKA 8G31 gels, disregard this
comment; those are quality batteries and will give decent service when
treated properly.
> cheap
> inefficient charger that takes way too long to charge and only
> works off an 110 VAC outlet overnight, and on, and on ...)
Again, not necessarily true. GEMs have used Zivan NG1s in the past,
which are limited to 110VAC only, but are not particularly inefficient.
Whether a charger takes too long or not is a personal judgement that
each user must make for themselves. In general, faster is usually
better, but if your usage is such that you either only have 110VAC for
charging or overnight charging is fine, then the stock charger is fine.
> GEM's original 72VDC controller and charger were cheap and wimpy.
>
> I recommend the PFC chargers because of their flexibility and
> better bang for the buck$
> http://www.manzanitamicro.com/chargers3.htm
>
> But an alternate for a 72 VDC nEV pack is a Delta-Q charger that
> will be a no-brainer whether you plug into 110VAC or 240VAC using
> the same charger http://www.delta-q.com/ A Tropica EV driver has
> had good experiences with a 72VDC Delta-Q charger.
The Delta-Q charger is stock equipment on current production GEMs, but a
PFCxx will certainly allow you to charge more quickly. The Delta-Q and
PFCxx run about the same $/watt; there is no free lunch ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Robert and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Upgrading to a higher voltage
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 22:50:55 +1000
>Hi All,
>
>Currently on my fiat 126 EV i am running 72 volts of trojan
>scs225.
That is a very light battery pack probably leading
to early battery death from abuse for the size, weight of
car.
>
>Its alright in terms of performance but climbing hills when
>60% SOC is a bit tiresome. I am driving in 3rd gear all
>the time which i cringe when the amp meter reads more than
>150 amps and my battery voltage sags to about 66 volts.
There is an old trick called field weakening where
you short the field with a selenoid and a resistor. I use a
12-18" of 12 gge copper wire which will give about a 25-50%
increase in rpm. But only use it once the rpm is above 2500
or so. Best hook up the contactor to a micro switch on the
go pedal so it hits at full pedal.
Your motor will easily hit 5500 rpms, many do 6500
without problems and with prep, go 8k rpm.
>
>I would like to run an extra battery to 84 volts. That way
>i assume that i can run pretty much 2nd gear all the time.
>at the moment 2nd gear only gets me to 50 km/hr tops on
>flats. I am hoping that the extra voltage will rev out the
>motor a little more to get me around 60-70km/hr on the
>flat.
You do need more battery weight but you are getting
very close to destroying your controller if you start with a
high charge voltage an 84 vdc pack needs to equalize or even
charge quickly. Maybe go 8 vdc to get more battery weight
and use field weakening to get more rpm.
With the 12v batteries, you'll need a new pack
within a yr if you drive much at all. With 6v batteries, you
can go 3-7 yrs and between 2 and 5 yrs with 8v batteries
with good charging.
>
>And hence with higher revs, i can use less current in 2nd
>gear than 3rd gear at the same speed.
Yes but you use more voltage so battery drain is
the same but motor heating is less and more torque thru
gearing for the same motor amps unless you use too much FW.
>
>My aim is to increase the pittyful range of around 20 kms
>of my car to hopefully around the 30km mark.
Have you put 50psi in your tires or switched to
LLR tires? Syn lubes in tranny? Both can make a real
difference.
>
>Has nyone done that.
>
>I was told by Alltrax that the controller can handle 84
>volts. But got to make sure that the voltage never exceeds
>100 volts.
>
>So for a fully charged pack of 7 12volt batts i can just
>make the 90 volt limit where the logic controller will
>stop the PWM ing.
7 / 12vdc batteries will hit 105vdc to be fully
charged, too much for that controller.
>
>I think that this would be a better way to increase range
>other than change the batteries to 6 volters which will be
>too damn heavy or increase the voltage to 96 volts.
You should try to have at least 30% of the
vehicles weight in batteries for reasonable range, battery
life. I'd go with 72vdc of 6v T-105s/125's for lowest
battery costs. I'm putting that many, 720 lbs, in my 1300lb
EV!! Put as much battery in as you can, you won't be sorry
with much longer range and battery life!!
Jerry Dycus
>
>Cheers
--- End Message ---
