EV Digest 5690
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Details of the SmartEV trial (in UK)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Replacing motor can with lighter material
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EV Test drive
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Replacing motor can with lighter material
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Want to build a sporty EV. Motor Mania
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Home made 3 phase AC motor (was Replacing motor can with lighter material)
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Tesla Motors mentioned on Coast to Coast AM, an Stuff.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Moving to Portland, OT
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Cap Based Battery Balancer
by "Lewis, Brian K" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Details of the SmartEV trial (in UK)
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Replacing motor can with lighter material
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Want to build a sporty EV. Motor Mania
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Unexpected first charge with PFC-20
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Timing vs RPM's
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Cap Based Battery Balancer
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Want to build a sporty EV
by "Mark Frederick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Upgrading to a higher voltage (comment)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Multi-"gear" motors (was: Re: Want to build a sporty EV. Motor Mania)
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Replacing motor can with lighter material
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Fried SSR
by "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Moving to Portland, OT
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Replacing motor can with lighter material, Don't DO it!!!!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Want to build a sporty EV
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Replacing motor can with lighter material, Don't DO it!!!!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Prizm data point
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
It won't need power steering at that weight. It is a little lighter than my
SmartEV.
0-30 mph at 6.5 out of a 50KW motor? Pretty slow.
The original gearbox is pretty interesting, but leave little room to the side
for a motor. The standard Zytek methodology is to leave it in a single gear. It
has a really nice electronic controlled sequential shifter and electric clutch.
It could have a really quick 0-60 time.
Pretty expensive proposition. The Zebra batteries are really expensive, I know,
but a $35,000 lease then return the car? You can build one for less than that
:-)
It is a great little electric vehicle, reasonable pickup, lots of fun to drive.
Peter
www.smartev.us
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of nikki
Sent: 26 July 2006 21:58
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Details of the SmartEV trial (in UK)
Apologies for cross posting this to several lists but I know that not
everyone is in the same list.
After a week of tracking down the person in charge of the Smart EV
corporate trial I found out some facts and figures:
It will be using a (quote) 50KW Brushless DC motor, standard Smart
gearbox and electric heating elements.
It will supposedly weigh 104kg more than the standard SmartForTwo,
have a limited top speed of 70 mph and a 0-30mph of 6.5 seconds. (Why
they don't give the 0-60 I don't know) They're going to use Power
Assisted Steering too to help compensate for the extra weight.
Now for the expensive part:
They want:
£1125+17.5% VAT for the intial downpayment
Then £375 +17.5% VAT per month for 47 months based on 10,000 miles
per year.
Oh, and like GM, they want the car back at the end of the trial.
I'm really disappointed as I was hoping I could get one for my
business. It was much more than I could realistically afford. They
suggested I got sponsorship but I really don't see that happening.
I'm gutted.
Anyway - I'll keep trying to find someone to sponsor me and see what
happens.
Nikki.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The company I work for also makes these motors.
http://www.xtreme-energy.com/pdf/servo/BI-08-75.pdf
Which is now owned by Ametek.
These are too small for an EV unless you are the size
of Stuart Little.
These motors are wound flat and then fitted to a
circular form and encapsulated in epoxy.
Iron is required around the perimeter of this stator
to complete the magnetic return path. Most of our
motors are 10% of the diameter of the back iron (for
example, the iron yoke on a 2" motor is approximately
0.2" thick). If its not thick enough for a given
magnet, the field strength is not strong enough and
the motor is innefficient.
We call these 'slotless' motors and they are used
primarily for high speed applications that require
very small motors.
Rod
--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> There is one type of motor that does not have the
> normal field pole
> placements. It is a coil form of windings place
> inside a plastic core.
> Something like a large plastic pipe. I do not
> remember what the rotor is
> made out of.
>
> This motor is a DC brushless motor by - SWISS ETEL.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 1:09 AM
> Subject: Re: Replacing motor can with lighter
> material
>
>
> > The iron is an integral part of the motor, it
> forms part of the magnetic
> > path.
> > Aluminum (and other such light weight materials)
> won't work.
> >
> > > I've had this idea to replace the steel/iron
> motor can with something
> > > that
> > > is lighter such as an aluminum alloy or
> something similar. Maybe
> > > something like a 7075 type of aluminum with some
> hardening might do the
> > > job but im not sure. The idea is to of course
> lighten the total weight
> > > of
> > > the motor for a motorcycle application.
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone
> Calls to the US (and 30+
> > > countries) for 2�/min or less.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4
> lines of legalistic
> > junk at the end; then you are specifically
> authorizing me to do whatever I
> > wish with the message. By posting the message you
> agree that your long
> > legalistic signature is void.
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
I have noticed that AGMs can become exceptionally stiff when dried out.
On the old pack I could pull 200a and still not drop below 12vpb
(52ah pack). Then after 14ah down, the batteries would completely
die.
This can happen if the AGM has lost water due to gassing and venting, so
the electrolyte specific gravity is too high. High specific gravity
lowers internal resistance, but also shortens life.
This is also the behavior when one cell (out of the six in a 12v
battery) is significantly out of balance with the rest. When that cell
goes dead, the voltage quickly falls from 12v to 8v, and the internal
resistance suddenly rises. The other cells have plenty of charge left,
and so will happily still pound out high currents. This further damages
the dead cell, making the imbalance worse.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
john bart wrote:
I've had this idea to replace the steel/iron motor can with something
that is lighter such as an aluminum alloy or something similar.
Most of the iron in a well-designed motor is there as part of the
magnetic circuit. You only see extra iron in motor designed to be cheap
and easy to make (consumer products), or when extra weight doesn't
matter (forklift motors).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doug Weathers wrote:
To my knowledge, it still remains to be seen how well this will work. I
don't think anyone's managed to get a series/parallel switched field
motor on the track. Or on the road, for that matter.
Many industrial EVs use tapped or multiple field windings to get the
various "gears" needed. Trains and buses have also done it, as well as
many antique EVs. It was common practice before the advent of electronic
motor controllers.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod,
I remember you from the OSMC group. How are things over there? I still
peruse by once in a while.
Do you think it would be very difficult to make a good 3 phase motor at
home? Air cooled too. I've got a lathe and a mill if that helps.
Mike
PS Lee, I'd like to hear your opinion on this too.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "SFEVA"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "ETList" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 5:45 AM
Subject: Re: Tesla Motors mentioned on Coast to Coast AM
> First mention I heard was at 10:42 PM. First hour. Lawrence
Rhodes.......
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>; "SFEVA"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
> "ETList" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 11:53 PM
> Subject: Tesla Motors mentioned on Coast to Coast AM
>
>
> > Wednesday night July 26, 2006 George Noory mentioned Tesla Motors.
> Millions
> > of listeners. Good PR. Now if we can just get NEDRA a mention.
Lawrence
> > Rhodes.........
> >
> Hi EVerybody;
Yeah! Getting some airtime! Noise ,I mean NEWS Radio WCBS in NYC
BIG All News thing, slipped in a few words , between ads, about the Tesla.
I cought the tail end of what they had to say. It was good. I guess enough
Joe Sixpacks are seeing WHtEC to begin to make a difference? Tesla is doing
OUR PR, too. I'll bet there will be some more Newbees coming on the List, to
get involved? Plenty of shade tree Gas rig guyz that are seeing the
Light?Years ago it was Wayland, Wilde, Rudman, come to mind, struggling with
ICE technology before THEY saw the (electric) light!
My two lumens worth
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, I'm not moving, but a good friend is. If any of you Portlanders have
advice/recommendations
for new neighbors, I'd appreciate it. Any info on schools, neighborhoods, etc,
etc. He starts a
new job September 1st, and his family will join him once he finds a house. He's
not an EV driver
(yet), but I'm sure he'll make it to PIR eventually. As much as I'd like to
move to EV Mecca, I'm
stranded in New England. But now that I have an excuse my wife can't counter,
I'll be out for a
visit.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been trying to build a circuit for a Capacitor Based equalizer
found here...
http://www.smartsparkenergy.com/pdf/batteq1.pdf
My first attempt at building the circuit did not yield good results.
This is about 3x the complexity of anything I have tried to build in the
past.
Before I spent a lot more time debugging or rebuilding I was wondering
if anyone out that has actually implemented this?
Brian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 4:33 AM
Subject: Re: Details of the SmartEV trial (in UK)
> > In the meantime the Bike is behaving itself fantastically. I'm
> > getting 20miles on a charge although the onboard instrumentation is
> > fudged. I just pack a meter so I can manually take SOC readings
> > before I end up with a flat battery ;)
> >
> > Nikki.
> >
>
> Slow and methodical is the right way to go with Hebe, and sure Ms Kate
> says your nuts (jealous she can't go 2-up? ;) but how about a lithium
> pack for the bike?
>
> P.S. - A Chinese moped brand-named Sakura is a bit odd - that's
> *Japanese* for cherry blossom!
> Hi EVerybody;
> Sakura has a nice ring to it! Even for one of their, Japan's, trains. The
Chinese have a wacky, whimsical, thing with names, anyhow! A Thunder Sky
battery.? I like it, though. Statue of Liberty comes through as " Goddess of
Liberty" nice! I look forward to their EV offerings names<g>!A nice Vespa
size scooter called the "Tank" They could use, at my suggestion" Gopher" or
"Gofur" for a EV?A little cartoon Gopher logo? I think electricity comes
through as " breath of Lightning" freely translated? Forgot about all my
Chinese I learned in Taiwan, thousands of EV years ago."Breath of Lightning"
would be a good EV Racer name?Or " Wispering Hope" Movies were Electric
Shadows,....... well put.
My two frames worth.
Bob
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
...and to add to what Lee said I think you'll save more weight
through careful body work.
For example, I'm planning to use glass fiber wings (wheel arches) and
trunk/hood to help save weight.
You'd be surprised how many bits of a car can be made in lightweight
materials which won't affect the structure of the car.
Nikki.
On 27 Jul 2006, at 15:07, Lee Hart wrote:
john bart wrote:
I've had this idea to replace the steel/iron motor can with something
that is lighter such as an aluminum alloy or something similar.
Most of the iron in a well-designed motor is there as part of the
magnetic circuit. You only see extra iron in motor designed to be
cheap and easy to make (consumer products), or when extra weight
doesn't matter (forklift motors).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
Hey Bob, the only draw back to one big motor is the limitation in the torque
curve - a transmission of some type would be required. The advantage of two
motors, mechanically in series is that a suitable controller (Zilla) can
electrically switch between series and parallel, thus giving two speeds! All
without requiring a gearbox - just a reducing gear (like a typical rear
end). This is what drives some of the fastest EVs today.
The one vs. two motor thing is a side effect of the characteristics of
series DC motors. To get a wide horsepower range, they need a wide
voltage range.
To go transmissionless with one motor, it needs a wide voltage range;
like 100:1, so you can creep in a parking lot, or race uphill. That
means something like 1v-100v or 3v-300v. The high voltage end lets you
get high enough current (and thus high torque) at high rpm.
But modern electronic controllers don't like 1v; they get very
inefficient with their 3v IGBTs and 1v diode drops.
And inexpensive series motors without interpoles don't like 300v. Motors
with interpoles aren't readily available; we're mostly stuck with lower
voltage series motors intended for fork lifts and the like.
The series/parallel trick lets you cut the range of voltages that each
motor sees in half: 3v-150v instead of 3v-300v. Yet you can still get
high torque over the entire speed range.
Simply adding series/parallel fields won't accomplish this trick. The
commutator will still have to deal with the full 300v at high speeds. If
you're going to modify the motor's field, the way to do it is to add
interpoles.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jude,
A few thoughts:
Get a new meter before proceeding! You'll need one to verify the regulation
point of each regulator.
Don't worry about getting the wheels to spin yet! See if you can find an
experienced local EV person to look over your controller wiring.
Charge up your 12v battery manually. Replace it if it doesn't hold a charge.
On the E-emeter issue, you say the "eMeter reports between -9 and -12 amps".
When charging this should read as a positive value. Maybe the E-Meter shunt
wires are reversed?
On the charger/regs issues, your Yellow Tops should get up to 14.7v each
at about 75 degrees, for a total pack voltage of 176v. Your target of 180v
is 15v per battery, which is too high for a normal charge. Also, the regs
have temperature compensation on the voltage setting, so if your pack is
warmer than about 75F, the fully charged battery/pack voltage will be lower.
What are your charger's switch settings?
I have my PFC-20 switches 1, 3 and 4 in the 'ON' position, with the rest
in the 'OFF' position. This tells the charger's timer to start if any
regulator 'regulates' or if the pack voltage hits the set point. The blue
LED indicates that the timer is running. It blinks faster as it gets
closer to the end of the time selected by the rotary switch.
If your blue LED started blinking when the first reg's green LED started
blinking then it sounds like the regbus is working to some point. When
the blue LED is blinking you should be able to see the current dropping
in the E-Meter's 'AMPS' display. This shows that the charger is cutting
back to keep the reg from overheating.
The first few charges will need to run a while before all the regs will be
blinking. Your pack may not hit the voltage set point if the regs are doing
their job, especially if the pack is warmer than about 75F. I have my
charger's voltage setting adjusted just a little higher than the total of
the regulator settings, so it serves as a safety limit instead of a normal
charging limit.
Ralph
Jude Anthony writes:
>
> It's been a disappointing day.
>
> I finally hooked everything up. That was cool. I only electrocuted
> myself once, probably because my converter is a Todd, so it's always
> ready to draw some current. Very minor.
>
> I roasted a voltmeter trying to measure the resistance of the emergency
> circuit breaker (to figure out why I electrocuted myself) with all the
> batteries hooked up. More sparks! More knowledge. I will learn from
> these mistakes.
>
> My 12V battery was nearly dead. I had very weak lights, until I closed
> the emergency circuit breaker. Then everything was nice and bright.
> Probably that converter doing its job. Unfortunately, several of my
> Rudman MK2B regulators immediately reported undervoltage, but that's no
> biggie.
>
> But I couldn't get the wheels to spin. That was the big
> disappointment. But I figured, hey, my batteries have been sitting on
> the garage floor for nearly four weeks. Maybe they're too weak to power
> the Curtis 1231C.
>
> This is my first attempt to charge an EV. I tried to calibrate the
> PFC-20, according to its instructions. Without a voltmeter, I thought
> I'd have some serious problems. But then I remembered my eMeter. It
> showed 147V, and this is a 144V pack of 12 YellowTops. Maybe they
> aren't as dead as I thought. I figured charging them was still a good
> idea, so I carried on.
>
> The eMeter reports between -9 and -12 amps, which seems to indicate good
> behavior. I'm charging from standard house current. After about five
> minutes of adjusting the voltage upwards, the pack was at 160V or so,
> and the first regulator came on. I turned down the current a bit to get
> it to turn off, and kept adjusting the voltage up. It came on quickly.
> I decided to leave it there and allow charging to continue, since I
> hadn't seen the yellow limit light lately.
>
> After about 30 minutes, another regulator started blinking green. An
> hour and a half later, a few of the red ones have started blinking
> green. There are still four red ones left, but the others seem happy.
>
> It's the charger that's bothering me. All the blinking regulators
> stopped at once, and the charger started flashing the blue timer light
> without the yellow limit light. The manual seems to indicate that means
> a regulator went over its max temp or something and the charger started
> a timeout. It keeps happening every ten minutes or so, though.
>
> None of the regulators gets a yellow lamp, at least as far as I can see;
> does the RegBus prevent that?
>
> It's been nearly four hours now, so I turned down the current again and
> turned the voltage up a bit. I won't let it go over 180V, but I would
> like those red LEDs to turn off and get the regulators all blinking
> green. I've still got three red ones.
>
> I was expecting a quick ramp-up to 180V, followed by a finishing
> charge. I'm getting this ten-minute pulsing. Is this expected behavior
> for the calibration charge? Am I making another mistake? Have I
> ($DEITY forbid) already murdered my first pack???
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Jude Anthony
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John etc.
Is advancing the timing in my (Cushman) 7" motor [EMAIL PROTECTED] (4k rpm
nominal) 72V direct drive 5-7 degrees going to
be a problem in electric reverse at 5mph?
Thanks,
Mark
Date:
Wed, 26 Jul 2006 06:29:16 -0700 From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu Subject: Re: Timing VS RPM's Plain Text
Attachment [ Scan and Save to Computer | Save to Yahoo! Briefcase ]
Hello to All, Mark E. Hanson wrote: >I spoke with Dan at ADC and he
mentioned that it's 1 degree advance per 1k rpm's and they sometimes on
special request advance ADC motors 5 degrees. He said the rpm's will go up
as well as the current but the efficiency will not. He said in a direct
drive vehicle where starting off is crucial, it's best to leave it neutral.
> > > Keep in mind, that most of the folks at Advanced DC no little
about today's EV conversions. Giving the above advice, is a perfect example
of how clueless they are. If you run a fairly typical 156V system at direct
drive and time the motor to neutral, you'll fireball the motor in short
order! The Sparrows are a classic example of ADC's clueless nature. They
shipped the 8 inch motors to Corbin timed at neutral and told them the same
thing...pretty much all the motors fireballed at the 156V level Sparrows were
designed at. Then, instead of listening to seasoned
EVer's advice and re-timing the motors to at least 10 degrees advanced, they
left them at neutral, motors continued to fireball and take out
controllers, and Corbin blamed the controller manufacturers for the
controller failures. Dan is an ADC guy, meaning they think in terms of
direct drive low voltage golf cars, and direct drive low voltage forklifts
that need to be set at neutral due to plug braking....they have little
knowledge of our high voltage EV conversion world and really, just wish we'd
go away. This is why EVers are more and more, turning to alternative motor
suppliers. Dan has obviously never ridden in a high performance direct drive
EV timed at 12 degrees advance. He's also probably never watched any EV drag
racing videos. Yes, torque at zero rpm will fall as you advance timing, but
there's sooooo much low end torque available, the reduction caused by
advanced timing has little effect. Take my advice, advance the timing...do
not set your electric motor to neutral for direct drive unless you're
running 48 volts or less. At low voltages found in golf cars and forklifts, I
would agree with neutral timing for the best torque results, but to suggest
neutral timing for EVs that run 144+ volts at currents anywhere from 500 -
2000 amps, is just bad advice! See Ya....John Wayland
Forwarded Message
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There was some discussion on the EVDL about this a few months ago, so you
might want to check the archives. I think Lee Hart cautioned that it would
take a long time to balance, and that there would be quite a bit of energy
loss in the capacitor resistance.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lewis, Brian K
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 7:38 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Cap Based Battery Balancer
I have been trying to build a circuit for a Capacitor Based equalizer
found here...
http://www.smartsparkenergy.com/pdf/batteq1.pdf
My first attempt at building the circuit did not yield good results.
This is about 3x the complexity of anything I have tried to build in the
past.
Before I spent a lot more time debugging or rebuilding I was wondering
if anyone out that has actually implemented this?
Brian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi there--------
I think we all want the sporty EV. I envision an AC motor, Inverter, with
Lithium-Ion Batteries. Drive out of a Ranger EV, batteries from whoever can
get the price down to Earth. I think a Kit Car approach, with a standard
car, with fiberglass panels, or even a hot rod like a '27 T track roadster.
this will get the weight down, and overcome the homely stigma. Is cost the
only reason every one is talking about DC motors? The Siemens AC motors are
available, I haven't searched for extra controllers/inverters yet, but it
just seems like a good solution. What am I missing?
Mark Frederick
12970 Earhart Ave. Suite 110
Auburn, CA 95602
Cell 530-277-1985
Office 530-887-1984 ex 105
Fax 530-887-1986
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Ray Wong
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 11:37 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Want to build a sporty EV
Hello list members.
My third EV project will be a sports car. I am finally getting past the
design and seach for cheap parts stage and now have to make some choices. I
welcome any suggestions or comments from the experienced members of the
list.
I want to build a sporty EV that looks great, goes fast, goes far. OK
stop laughing.
Here is what I am working with:
1988 RX7 Gen 2 Turbo - has a great body, new paint, disks all around, 5
speed, dead engine. Nice looking car. Cda of about 5.95
Choice of twin motors
- Two Prestolite 4001 twin shaft. These can easily be coupled with a
spline coupler.
- Two ADC 203-06-4001M single shaft. These could be belt/chain coupled
or sent to Jim to add some tandem magic.
Choice on tranny
- existing RX7 5 speed. Likely need a race clutch. Rear end?
- Powerglide 2 speed set up for drag racing manual shift
I will need to make an adapter plate depending on the setup.
Controller
Zilla 2K 300 V if Otmar will return my email so I can get it ordered.
Parallel/Series switching option
Batteries
I am thinking of a hybrid battery pack using Hawkers for punch and NiMH
for range. I have some used M-95 NiMh packs from a Ranger EV, tested good
to +80AH. I replace a few of the weaker cells.
This is the same type of configuration I used on my EZE sports bike. The
Hawkers act like big capacitors.
I was thinking of a 192V system with 16 Odyssey 16AH pb (3.1kwh) plus 16
M-95 NiMh (18.2kwh). Total pack weight 896 lbs. Estimated range of 70-100
miles.
Guestimate on vehicle weight is 3200- 3300 lbs. That only leaves me 350
lbs to max GVWR of 3635.
Questions to the group:
1) Will the 8" ADC give me a whole lot more than the smaller 7.25"
Prestolite. The Presolite is an easy tandem setup. I would need to send
the ADC to Jim at Hi-Torque. Jim, pm me with how much?
2) The Powerglide is great for drag racing but is a 5 speed better for
mostly street use. I want to be able to do a burn out and maybe give some
friends a good first impression of an EV. Edmonton is mostly flat.
3) Has anyone else had success with a hybrid battery pack. The biggest
complaint is the complexity of the BMS/charger setup.
4) Should I go higher on pack voltage. 240V?. GWVR weight becomes an
issue. Pack would be over 1100lbs
5) Given the above, can I hope to see a 13 second quarter. What chould I
change/add to make it faster.
Thanks
Ray Wong
Ezesport
---------------------------------
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Robert Chew wrote:
travelling at the same speed on different gears, 2nd and 3rd
in different cars... you would be using less current in 2nd gear
than 3rd gear due to a higher rpm.
Right. Same speed means same power. The motor in the car in 2nd is
running at higher voltage, higher rpm; and lower current, lower torque.
This is because current is directly proportional to torque generated.
Not "directly"; It's a curve. In a series motor, torque is proportional
to current squared at low currents, gradually moving toward proportional
at very high currents.
My other reasoning of driving in a lower gear is to get the motor
spinning in its sweet spot of around 3800 and a little higher.
The "sweet spot" for an electric motor is actually very broad. A mere
2:1 difference only has a minor effect on efficiency. The problems only
occur at the extreme ends. At very high rpm, fan losses and wind
resistance become significant. At very high current, I2R losses become
significant.
Lower currents also mean less power loss through cabling switching
MOSFETs and longer battery lifetime.
If you're using a controller, same HP means same battery current,
regardless of motor speed. Thus battery cabling and life are unaffected.
A MOSFET controller is 95-98% efficient, so the difference between 2nd
and 3rd gear as far as the controller is concerned is lost in the noise.
Lower current will also produce smaller voltage sag due to the smaller
currents being drawn from the pack in total.
No; pack current is unaffected (see above).
higher rev will let me regen more effectively.
That's possible.
Here's the situation I see, with an ADC series motor and Curtis PWM
controller, in a 2200 lbs car. At 40 mph, 2nd and 3rd gear have equal
efficiency. Below that, 2nd is more efficient; at higher speeds, 3rdis
more efficient. But the difference is very small; just a few percent.
But running in 3rd gear also means poorer motor cooling due to the lower
fan speed. So I usually drive in 2nd to sacrifice a little efficiency
but keep the motor cooler.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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On Jul 27, 2006, at 8:10 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
Doug Weathers wrote:
To my knowledge, it still remains to be seen how well this will work.
I don't think anyone's managed to get a series/parallel switched
field motor on the track. Or on the road, for that matter.
Many industrial EVs use tapped or multiple field windings to get the
various "gears" needed. Trains and buses have also done it, as well as
many antique EVs. It was common practice before the advent of
electronic motor controllers.
Neato!
I was thinking specifically of Jim's altered series-wound motors (which
weren't originally designed for series/parallel operation) and the
Zilla controller (which is expecting two motors). AFAIK, nobody has
this combo on the road yet.
Do AC motors have the same ability to get different levels of torque at
the same RPMs?
How about shunt motors?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
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> For example, I'm planning to use glass fiber wings (wheel arches) and
> trunk/hood to help save weight.
>
> You'd be surprised how many bits of a car can be made in lightweight
> materials which won't affect the structure of the car.
>
> Nikki.
You might also be surprised at how heavy fiberglass is when you make it
strong enough to survive daily use and assorted little bumps etc.
When I looked into purchasing fiberglass replacement parts for my truck,
the ones designed for daily use (not race use) were almost as heavy as the
steel parts, and in some cases were even heavier.
Of course that assumes a modern vehicle with typical lightweight bodywork.
Many of the older cars had very thick sheetmetal, so the fiber parts
might be lighter.
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
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I think I just blew my brand new SSR, its a 400V DC D4D12 Crydom module.
I wired it up to control my new IOTA DLS-220-55 to turn on when the key
is in the ignition. Turned on but it never turned off. The only thing
I can think of that might have fried the SSR was not installing the
Transient protection diode yet. With module unwired, there is 80 Ohms
of resistance across the output. I guessing this is bad?
By the way the IOTA DLS-220-55 works great with 240V system. The only
good news... :-)
http://www.crydom.com/userResources/productFamilies/39/crydom_1dc.pdf
Thanks
John Grigg
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/723
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 10:35 AM
Subject: Moving to Portland, OT
> No, I'm not moving, but a good friend is. If any of you Portlanders have
advice/recommendations
> for new neighbors, I'd appreciate it. Any info on schools, neighborhoods,
etc, etc. He starts a
> new job September 1st, and his family will join him once he finds a house.
He's not an EV driver
> (yet), but I'm sure he'll make it to PIR eventually. As much as I'd like
to move to EV Mecca, I'm
> stranded in New England. But now that I have an excuse my wife can't
counter, I'll be out for a
> visit.
>
> Dave Cover
> Dave?
Are ya going to Woodburn at PIR? You gotta make this trip. If ya fly, Jet
Blue has some good offerings , now on PDX Flites.Bought in advance. They go
, non stop there.Shameless plug here. Have had good luck with them. they
EVen fly on time, a novel concept!
Seeya there?
Bob
Oh!....... By the way, AM stopping off at Warfield Electric, can cart
motors out for rebuild and whatnot. At todaze hidiously high shipping costs,
it's something to think about? Or for a west coast delivery. What's a few
hundred pounds among friends?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "john bart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 1:08 AM
Subject: Replacing motor can with lighter material
> I've had this idea to replace the steel/iron motor can with something that
is lighter such as an aluminum alloy or something similar. Maybe something
like a 7075 type of aluminum with some hardening might do the job but im not
sure. The idea is to of course lighten the total weight of the motor for a
motorcycle application.
>
Hi John an' EVerybody;
Don't do it! I tried that ,with some massively heavy forktruck motors in
Taiwan, thousands of years ago.Had a local machine shop make me a lighter
field, "can" setup. Feh! Motors were so feeble powerwise after that! A EE
told me , later on,that the fields HAD to be heavy to pass on the magnetic
forces to make the damn motor work. It was a big disapointment! So don't
mess with mother Nature! If the damn field is heavy, there WAS a reason,
other than being bullit proof! Learned the hard way!We just have to live
with heavy motors.
My two coils worth.
Bob
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
countries) for 2¢/min or less.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ray Wong said: "Choice on tranny - existing RX7 5 speed. Likely need a race
clutch. Rear end?"
We would routinly twist off transmission output shafts on our Gen 1 "Maniac
Mazda" running only a 1000 amp controller. I would be checking to make sure
the Gen 2 had beefed up the output shaft if you intend to use a tranny.
Remember that the quickest street bodied car in the world used a tranny and
that was with the motors only seeing slightly over 100 volts. Something to
think about.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
--
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--- Begin Message ---
Guys guys GUYS!!
The iron between the field poles IS the magnetic path!!! without it.. You
simple don't have a motor!!
Logic is ... the steel should atleast cover the field pole mounting cylender
length. Plus a Undertermined amount more.......
This is where you can drop litterally 10s of lbs of motor weight. The end
bells don't have to be Iron.. and the case length that supports the end
bells don't have to be as long.
But removing any steel does weaken the field strength, Since the flux
spreads out away from the field poles. Shortening the case lenth and making
aluminum rings that support the end bells
IS the primary way to reduce the actual weight of the motor.
The trick is if you take away too much iron you get a higher RPM and
lower torque motor, Just like regular field weakening done by taking turns
off the field winding or shorting a part of the field coils out.
So.. If you have a over fielded motor...torque monster NO rpms.. massivley
weakening the field paths ... is a serious way to make the motor wake up.
The hang up.. too weak... can't put the metal back now can you????
So..Keep the steel only where it's needed, Ditch the rest. Only testing and
hands on experience will tell you what is needed. This is ..the Grad Course
in motor tweaking.
If you don't have the basics known and understood... don't go here!!
Certain Ev Drag racers, have dropped the motor weight by about %50 doing
this and other tricks. So this is definatley.. a worthy concept.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: Replacing motor can with lighter material, Don't DO it!!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "john bart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 1:08 AM
Subject: Replacing motor can with lighter material
> I've had this idea to replace the steel/iron motor can with something that
is lighter such as an aluminum alloy or something similar. Maybe something
like a 7075 type of aluminum with some hardening might do the job but im not
sure. The idea is to of course lighten the total weight of the motor for a
motorcycle application.
>
Hi John an' EVerybody;
Don't do it! I tried that ,with some massively heavy forktruck motors in
Taiwan, thousands of years ago.Had a local machine shop make me a lighter
field, "can" setup. Feh! Motors were so feeble powerwise after that! A EE
told me , later on,that the fields HAD to be heavy to pass on the magnetic
forces to make the damn motor work. It was a big disapointment! So don't
mess with mother Nature! If the damn field is heavy, there WAS a reason,
other than being bullit proof! Learned the hard way!We just have to live
with heavy motors.
My two coils worth.
Bob
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
countries) for 2¢/min or less.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
Christopher Zach wrote
So far though the zener regs seem to be
keeping it alive.
What would typical values have been for the voltage @ current under
similar conditions prior to installing the regs?
The pack would drop into the low 260's at 10-12ah down under a 60a load.
I replaced six batteries that had the oddball "10 volts under load"
problem, and the rest of the batteries were at least able to hold 11
volts under load (load=100a test for 10 seconds)
As I recall, you added the regs to the pack after it had been in service
some time; how many miles were on it when the regs were installed, and
how many miles put on since?
About 4,500 or so; it's been another 2k miles since the swap.
The real proof of the pudding will come in Fall when I drop the pack for
a review.
Chris
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