EV Digest 5718
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Drag on an electric motor
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re:Article on the Tesla.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) EV's make it to the comics
by TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: More on SepEx
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Drag on an electric motor
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: A123 Specs (was: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?))
by "Michael T Kadie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Matt Graham's 'Joule Injected' Featured Dragtimes.com Car of the Month!
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Who Killed the Electric Car
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Tesla motor and controller
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Sporty, practical=lightweight, long range EV
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) AC PMSM traction systems
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Sporty, practical=lightweight, long range EV
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) organic vs Metalic Brakes
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: heater wiring question
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Saft batteries to supply NiCd for trains
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: In progress EV question
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: organic vs Metalic Brakes
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: AC PMSM traction systems
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: AC PMSM traction systems
by Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: A123 Specs (was: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?))
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Voltage Measurement Circuit for Basic Stamp2
by Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: A123 Specs (was: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?))
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Drag on an electric motor
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Tesla motor and controller
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Soldering vs Spot welding
by Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re:Article on the Tesla.
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: Purchased Jet 007
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) ACI Superchargers / Soneil Battery Chargers
by "David Sherritze" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) 1300lbs lighter!!
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> The AV has an instantaneous fuel calculator and if I am driving and
put it
> in neutral, it registers anywhere between 40 and 99MPG. So if the
electric
> motors are driving it why would I not get that mileage around town??? I
> know I will loose a lot with stop lights but am hoping I could pull
at least
> 35mpg. The computer says it should be higher, actually.
>
Is this an auto tranny? I don't know personally, but I have been told
by mechanics to not go into neutral while rolling - actually, one of
them said to not even do it at every stop light, like I had been
doing. Maybe others on the list with more hands-on experience can
clarify this.
When the Plug-in Prius folks talk about mpg numbers, they don't
include electrical energy, so if they say 100mpg, they also should
state how many kwh's are used in that 100 miles.
Many years back, I posted here thoughts of an electric-rwd/ICE-fwd
RAV4 (mine is 4WD, manual tranny) - I wanted to electrify all the
things dependent on the ICE running (PS, PB, AC), so the ICE could be
off in EV mode, or only run the AC when the ICE is on. The other idea
was rewinding the alternator to put out pack voltage and only energize
it when the pack is low enough to need a boost, and rely on a dc-dc
converter for all the 12v loads...again, I don't know if the
conversion losses would make it worthwhile. Maybe the decreased drag
on the ICE could improve mpg when its running.
If *you* go to this much trouble, consider adding some aero mods and
all the other stuff EVers do to minimize drag.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joseph Stalin's world, no corporations, and you could do anything you
want for the environment and the people, a real utopia. : )
Hey watch the political crap. What you say isn't even true unless you meant
something with that little smiley face???? In San Francisco this guy is
just funny. BTW why do certain people think doing the right thing isn't
right? That makes a certain twisted sense. Lawrence Rhodes......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Did you guys see the Foxtroi comic strip today?
http://www.gocomics.com/foxtrot/2006/08/02/
TiM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8/3/06, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
You sure can build single speed vehicle with SepEx or series
would motor for that matter as well. Size it (and controller)
large enough and on a tall gear it will cover your speed range.
In practice though, the torque is so giant in this case, that
in a normal tranny not meant to take such abuse, something
will likely break. Clutch slip, or if you don't have one,
strip a few teeth off the gear, not to mention wear of the
tranny shaft bearings due to abnormal side load.
It sounds like you're taking an extreme case and applying it universally.
The most numerous road going EVs in the world (PSA ones) all have
sepex, all are single speed using a tiny custom gearbox and
differential, and not once, ever, have I heard of a transmission
problem.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you have the engine running, the front pump in the transmission will be
pressurizing the system, and engage all the bands and clutches, and the
engine will speed up to match the driveshaft speed.
David C. Wilker Jr.
United States Air Force, Retired
----- Original Message -----
From: "David J. Hrivnak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 7:09 PM
Subject: RE: Drag on an electric motor
Thank you for the reply and I am not sure the drag on the existing drive
train would be a problem. True one should not tow the Avalanche but it is
because of lubrication in the transmission. I was planning to idle the
motor to power the brakes, steering and AC. The idling motor would also
spin the transmission so it should be lubricated.
Granted it would not be a pure electric vehicle but should do better than
35mpg which would not be bad for a full size pickup.
David J. Hrivnak
www.hrivnak.com
Personal Account WWJD?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 9:45 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Drag on an electric motor
The hazard I see in this configuration is quite the opposite. That is if
your truck has an automatic transmission. It is generally not a good idea
to tow
an automatic. Being pulled along with the electric motor with the engine
off
would be the same as towing, as far at the transmission is concerned. I
would recommend checking the towing section of your trucks owners manual.
Ken
In a message dated 8/1/2006 7:24:33 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Hello I am new to the group and have enjoyed reading all the knowledgeable
responses over the past few days. I was hoping to convert a 4WD truck to
an
EV hybrid where I would drive the front wheels from electric and the rear
with gas. For in town driving I was planning to put it in neutral and
thus
have a FWD EV. When I take a trip then I would shift into drive,
disconnecting the electric and have the range of my ICE.
Has anyone tried this? Do I need to have a neutral in the FWD? Can an EV
motor spin without applicable drag or will it exhibit significant drag
unless it is physically disconnected from the wheels? Any thoughts and
advice would be appreciated. Thank you
David J. Hrivnak
www.hrivnak.com
Personal Account WWJD?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, lets see, I believe the problem with soldering the cells is heating
the batteries; but I know that a123 system told me that I need a resistive
welder to make packs out of their batteries, or I might likely damage them.
Second copper can be welded it is just REALLY hard. Jesse James
demonstrated it on one of the Monster Garage episodes.
My 2 cents
KD
eCobra http://ssinc.us/kitcar/index.htm
Soon to be go-cart
-----Original Message-----
From: john bart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 7:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: A123 Specs (was: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?))
The only advantage i see to welding directly to the battery itself is its
relatively cleaner and can handle higher heat environments without coming
disconnected. I think some people forget that welding is based on
resistance, so by adding tabs your using resistance to make a connection.
Where solding you are using heat to make a connection and not basing the
materials used to connect batteries on resistance. After all, you can't
weld copper, so you wont be using any copper battery bars with a welder, the
only way you can do this is with a soldering iron.
Maybe doing a test to see which method is better should be put into
motion. Connect up 6 cells with the welding method and 6 cells with the
soldering method and through some trial tests see where you attain better
results. I think the results would speak better for themselves than arguing
one way or another. later
Philippe Borges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
After extensive research, imho, tab welding is most of the time INFERIOR !
-welding contact are not numerous (2 to 4)
-welding contacts are small (spot is 0,5 mm diam circle) -welding contacts
are WELD.... ok it's seem strange to write that but what i mean is that a
welded contact is by definition a poor contact as the resistance welding
process use this poor contact resistance to make the hot spot...
I find on some detailed messages than failures from soldered pack (R/C) are
not from the soldered part but from the tab welded to the cell which became
to hot under high curent > failure.
The tab is the weakest link, let's take an exemple:
+ contact of the cell have a surface area about 22mm2 (7mm circle)
connecting a tab with 4 welded spot give a contact surface of ~ 4 X 1.5mm =
6mm2 which is near 1/4 of the total contact area available !
Heating the cell with internal damage don't happen if the soldering technic
is well and quickly done (1 second is not enough to harm the cell)
Now i understand why R/C competitors are soldering directly cell to cell
using silver/tin based solder.
this said a 7000 cells soldered pack is going to be a pain...
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ? http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal"
To:
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: A123 Specs (was: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?))
> > So *why* is welding superior?
> >
> > The Dell battery pack I took apart had four weld spots on each
> > battery terminal. I built a simple welder but couldn't seem to
> > reproduce the results. I was at first under the impression that
> > soldering would get the batteries dangerously hot, and an explosion
> > would be possible. But if not, I don't see why one wouldn't solder
> > instead. We don't weld resistor leads together...what's different
> > about batteries?
>
> Don't know for sure, but depending on what material the cell ends are
> made out of, solder might not stick. I've had this problem in the past
> (long past) with NiCads.
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
countries) for 2¢/min or less.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Congradulations Matt- But let's not forget to continue the vote for Bill Dube's
Killacycle- He deserves a place as well.
John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hello to All,
Congrats to Matt. His electric car now graces the opening page as
Dragtimes.com 'Car of the Month'.
See Ya....John Wayland
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks!
I just wanted to be sure that everyone knew the real brains behind this
vehicle.
If GM had taken this on themselves, I doubt we would have seen anything
like the EV1.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 11:54 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Who Killed the Electric Car
Dennis
Here's a link to a nice, concise bio of the amazing Paul MacCready. The
Impact is mentioned.
http://cafefoundation.org/v2/main_sponsors_maccready.php
Bill
Palo Alto, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Pestka, Dennis J
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 4:14 AM
To: EV Discussion Group
Subject: Who Killed the Electric Car
I have a copy of a 1992 article in Discovery Magazine on the design of
the Impact (EV1) by Paul MacCready and his company AeroVironment.
With the recent release of the movie, Who Killed the Electric Car, I
thought some people might enjoy reading this.
Some may not even be aware of Aerovironments involvement in its'
original design.
If someone can give me a place to post it, I would be happy to send it
to you.
Hopefully this is not breaking some copy write law.
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Its still the inverter topology thats the most interesting.
Is it a traditional three-leg PWM, three-leg with dc-dc boost or
something particularly new and effective called the "z-source" option.
FreedomCAR project has done extensive research and evaluation on the
three options, and it should be much more economical to build and also
more efficient than the traditional topology.
For a good overview of the research and prototyping results:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/program/2005_apeem_annual_report.pdf
page 183, section 4.4, "Z-Source power converter"
The (pure metal) price comparison turns $800 bucks for traditional
topology, and $300 bucks for z-source, 55KW power output. thats a
massive improvement
The PDF is an overall interesting reading on recent advances in
electric traction systems.
-kert
On 8/2/06, Arthur W. Matteson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
IIRC, the AC-150 has (144) air-cooled TO-220AB IGBTs. It probably runs
at 10 or 20kHz. It may use soft switching, but it wouldn't be as
necessary with the newer transistors. The control loop is certainly
closed, probably aided by a sensor on the motor shaft. Field-oriented
control would be my almost-certain guess.
- Arthur
On Tue, 2006-08-01 at 17:33 +0300, Kaido Kert wrote:
> Im wondering how "state of the art" the inverter is. Soft switching ?
> Zero-source? How high switching frequency ? Control algo is probably
> flux vector , not variable v/hz, but is it closed-loop or open loop ?
>
> -kert
>
> On 7/31/06, Jorg Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On 7/30/06, Jorg Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > It isn't actually made by AC Propulsion, but shares nearly every
> > > feature: high regen, very high rpm, traction control. In the tZero,
> > > nothing is liquid-cooled, so I don't think it would need to be in the
> > > Tesla either... although the Tesla does go through some trouble to
> > > keep the LiIon batteries in a good temperature range - and they *are*
> > > liquid-cooled.
> >
> > To clarify:
> >
> > by "made by", I meant, "manufactured by"
> >
> > Tesla licensed at least one controller-related patent from AC
> > Propulsion, and much of the design is (as I understand it) the same.
> > However, the controller is not actually the AC-150 controller.
> >
> > As a side note, the first Tesla prototype, as well as the first
> > Wrightspeed prototype, *do* use an AC-150 controller.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Around here, 60 wouldn't even begin to keep up with traffic. 80 might....
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Sporty, practical=lightweight, long range EV
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 20:01:33 -0000
> Aren't 1 and 2 mutually exclusive?
>
...
> > 1) Keeps up with traffic
> > 2) Top speed 60MPH
> > 3) Range approaching 100miles
> > 4) Was new and warrantied
> > 5) Had the luxury, options, and trim levels of a car that would
sell new
> for
> > $25k
Mutually *inclusive*, unless you consider "keeps up with traffic" to
be quick, while "top speed 60MPH" could mean glacial acceleration!
I'd consider a $40K EV a reasonable initial price, even if I can't
afford it, but the list would have to include:
6) Has a roof, whether hard or soft
7) Average to above average safety (air bags nice but not neccessary)
8) Seats > 2 (or at least has the carrying capacity of an EV1)
9) Variety of charging inputs, Avcon optional
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
By looking thgouh companies doing research subcontracts for FreedomCAR
project i stumbled upon UQM technologies page.
Seems that they are supplying complete EV drive systems in various power ranges:
http://www.uqm.com/products/specsheet.html#Vehicle
Permanent magnet synchronous motors, modern inverters.Seems like nice
package, the question is "how much?". Anyone care to request quotes on
approximate price ranges on those ?
-kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Davidson wrote:
Around here, 60 wouldn't even begin to keep up with traffic. 80 might....
Yes, I think that is pretty much the same all over. The price of gas
hasn't gotten high enough for folks to start listening to their heads
when stepping on the accelerator rather than feeding their
egos. Some may be down sizing their vehicles, but they still have to
slam that pedal down when the light turns green. On my commute now I
see not just everyone speeding, but now they don't wait for the light
to turn green they just take off whenever they want.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
A mechanic friend stopped by last night and recommended changing my shoes to
semi-metalic or metalic brakes for shorter stopping distance in my Cushman but
I've heard others on this list say the standard shoes are better for stopping
distance. Is there a chart for brake material grabbiness or stopping distance?
Any real world tests been done?
Thanks,
Mark
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Welcome to the list John; I hadn't seen you post before.
I run 144V, and (though I'm away from the EV for a couple of days), I'm fairly
certain I have 2 20A fuses; one on each line. (Mine is via KTA, and I used
their schematic). There is a snubber, so suppress the arc you get when you
turn it on, much like a main contactor.
But the issue I think you're omitting, is that the amperage depends on the
airflow. My 1500W heater will pull up to 47A (or was it 27?) when the fan is
on "high". It will do as little as 13A on low.
If you didn't get snubber stuff, try KTA; it's $5 for the schematic.
TTYL,
John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
It seems odd to be thinking about heat given the temperatures outside,
but I've got a heater wiring question. My EV will be 144 volts and I
have one of the 1500 watt heaters from EV Parts. Rods spec sheet
indicates the wiring should include a 20 amp fuse. My question is about
my options for switching the heater. At 144 volts and 1500 watts by my
simple calculations the heater will be drawing a little over 10 amps at
nominal voltage and even a bit higher when the pack sags.
I have heard that others are using a 10 amp relay with these heaters.
Is it ok to run a bit over he rated current on a relay?
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Article is here;
http://powerelectronics.com/portable_power_management/batteries_selected_trains/
On page 2 of the datasheet it has an interesting
curve showing NiCd capacity and Lead Acid versus
temperature.
http://www.saftbatteries.com//130-Catalogue/PDF/com_srx_en.pdf
This may be usefull information for people using Lead
Acid in a cold environment that are considering
switching over to NiCd to increase range.
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My motor mount is a banjo plate that takes a quick 45 degree turn to the
existing (ICE) engine mount.
Ask your welder to use "gussets" (little triangles) at that junction to give
it plenty of strength. I thnk mine is about 3/8 steel, but others have used
much more.
peace,
John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: As the responsible party for one of the, in
progress, projects on the
album (#791) I'm looking for input. I created a basic web page where I
can post some pictures and question.
http://webpages.charter.net/belchertownev/
Motor mounting is my next big step. As it states on the page:
"My thought is to create a bracket attaching to the stock motor mounts.
I had planned on fabricating two "plates" that would be bolted to the
engine mounts, then have short risers welded to the plates. Then a
horizontal "bar" spanning the distance between the risers. The clam
shell motor mount would then be bolted to the horizontal bar using
spacers to fine tune the motor position.
The level in the photo is sitting on the clam shell bracket that is
supported with wood blocks in approximatly the correct location.
Comments? Suggestions?
I have no welding experience so I will have to find someone to make
this for me. What guidelines/specifications should I propose to a
potential fabricator? Does anyone know of a good welder in the Pioneer
Valley of Massachusetts?
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates
starting at 1¢/min.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Metallic's need to be warmed up first. So if they are not used
constantly they cool off and don't stop worth a damn. That's why they
came out with semi metallic's for the street.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> A mechanic friend stopped by last night and recommended changing
my shoes to semi-metalic or metalic brakes for shorter stopping
distance in my Cushman but I've heard others on this list say the
standard shoes are better for stopping distance. Is there a chart for
brake material grabbiness or stopping distance? Any real world tests
been done?
>
> Thanks,
> Mark
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With a max rpm of 5k-8k rpm depending on the system you'll need a
gearbox possibly.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> By looking thgouh companies doing research subcontracts for FreedomCAR
> project i stumbled upon UQM technologies page.
> Seems that they are supplying complete EV drive systems in various
power ranges:
> http://www.uqm.com/products/specsheet.html#Vehicle
>
> Permanent magnet synchronous motors, modern inverters.Seems like nice
> package, the question is "how much?". Anyone care to request quotes on
> approximate price ranges on those ?
>
> -kert
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is a response a received from an inquiry a couple of weeks ago...
Hi Chet, thank you for contacting UQM. The PowerPhase systems are built to
order with typical lead-times of between 8-12 weeks depending on resource
and materials availability. The price range for the whole PowerPhase line
is between approximately 20k-40k depending on power output. Please feel
free to contact me with any further questions.
Thanks and Best Regards,
Andrew Roberts
Sales Engineer
UQM Technologies
(303) 215-3497
--- Kaido Kert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> By looking thgouh companies doing research subcontracts for FreedomCAR
> project i stumbled upon UQM technologies page.
> Seems that they are supplying complete EV drive systems in various power
> ranges:
> http://www.uqm.com/products/specsheet.html#Vehicle
>
> Permanent magnet synchronous motors, modern inverters.Seems like nice
> package, the question is "how much?". Anyone care to request quotes on
> approximate price ranges on those ?
>
> -kert
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael T Kadie wrote:
> Well, lets see, I believe the problem with soldering the
> cells is heating the batteries; but I know that a123
> system told me that I need a resistive welder to make
> packs out of their batteries, or I might likely damage
> them.
Let's not forget that while it takes heat to join the tabs to the cells,
there is a massive difference in how you apply that heat.
The resistive weldor applies a relatively large amount of energy to a
relatively small area over a *very* small duration of time, which
doesn't allow the heat to spread to other areas/things that will be
damaged from excessive heating. Obviously, it is not the metallic case
of the A123 cell that is damaged by the heat! ;^>
In contrast, soldering applies heat over a much longer time, which
allows the heat to spread out and possibly heat other areas to damaging
levels before the area of interest reaches the proper soldering
temperature (which is far hotter than the cell would ever get during
normal operation).
It is much like the difference between MIG welding and gas welding; the
heat is much better localised with MIG.
I think the experiment someone else suggested of comparing the
performance of a group of cells with welded tabs vs a group with
soldered tabs would be interesting, but bear in mind that while welded
connections will likely be fairly consistent there may be huge
variations in the behaviour of soldered connections depending on the
equipment and technique used by any particular individual.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The thing I don't like about solutions like this, is
that you need an isolated power supply to power the
op-amps on both sides of the opto-isolator.
I've done something similar in the past, but using a
more "standard" dual opto-isolator. I servoed the
current through both LEDs in series, such that the
signal on one of the transistors is what I wanted, and
I _assumed_ that it is the same for both transistors.
Only one of the transistors was isolated. If it's a
dual opto-isolator, it's a pretty good assumption.
- Steven Ciciora
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> While optoisolation of analog signals where drifts
> due to
> the supply, temp and aging effects are compensated
> for,
> are not trivial, actually quite easy to do.
>
> For starter, download spec sheet for HCNR-200 opto
> coupler (from Digikey
> web site) and look for the circuit on the page 10.
> This is
> the most versatile way, and 'course not the only way
> to do it.
>
> Victor
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll happily volunteer to do the soldering if the test comes up.
Mike
--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Michael T Kadie wrote:
>
> > Well, lets see, I believe the problem with soldering the
> > cells is heating the batteries; but I know that a123
> > system told me that I need a resistive welder to make
> > packs out of their batteries, or I might likely damage
> > them.
>
> Let's not forget that while it takes heat to join the tabs to the
> cells,
> there is a massive difference in how you apply that heat.
>
> The resistive weldor applies a relatively large amount of energy to a
> relatively small area over a *very* small duration of time, which
> doesn't allow the heat to spread to other areas/things that will be
> damaged from excessive heating. Obviously, it is not the metallic
> case
> of the A123 cell that is damaged by the heat! ;^>
>
> In contrast, soldering applies heat over a much longer time, which
> allows the heat to spread out and possibly heat other areas to
> damaging
> levels before the area of interest reaches the proper soldering
> temperature (which is far hotter than the cell would ever get during
> normal operation).
>
> It is much like the difference between MIG welding and gas welding;
> the
> heat is much better localised with MIG.
>
> I think the experiment someone else suggested of comparing the
> performance of a group of cells with welded tabs vs a group with
> soldered tabs would be interesting, but bear in mind that while
> welded
> connections will likely be fairly consistent there may be huge
> variations in the behaviour of soldered connections depending on the
> equipment and technique used by any particular individual.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave wrote:
> If you have the engine running, the front pump in the
> transmission will be pressurizing the system, and
> engage all the bands and clutches, and the
> engine will speed up to match the driveshaft speed.
This is certainly not true in general, though I don't know the
particulars of the specific tranny model used in the Avalanche. If all
the clutches and bands ever engaged at the same time the car would not
move ;^>
Most auto trannies I'm familiar with tend to have a sprag clutch as part
of 3rd gear (more modern trannies with additional gears may include the
sprag clutch for all gears higher than 1st and 2nd), this overrunning
clutch allows the vehicle to coast instead of exhibiting
engine/compression braking when the throttle is released at higher
speeds.
What you describe (tranny input & output shafts coupled/locked together)
will only be true if the particular vehicle exhibits compression braking
when the throttle is released and the vehicle is in gear.
Certainly, if the tranny is placed into neutral the input and output
shafts are completely uncoupled regardless of engine RPM (one can easily
verify this by noting that no matter how much they rev the engine, the
vehicle will not move while in neutral, and if the tranny is shifted to
neutral while the vehicle is moving, the engine RPM can be varied
without affecting the vehicle speed ;^)
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 2006-08-03 at 14:31 +0300, Kaido Kert wrote:
> Its still the inverter topology thats the most interesting.
> Is it a traditional three-leg PWM, three-leg with dc-dc boost or
> something particularly new and effective called the "z-source" option.
> FreedomCAR project has done extensive research and evaluation on the
> three options, and it should be much more economical to build and also
> more efficient than the traditional topology.
> For a good overview of the research and prototyping results:
> http://www.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/program/2005_apeem_annual_report.pdf
> page 183, section 4.4, "Z-Source power converter"
>
> The (pure metal) price comparison turns $800 bucks for traditional
> topology, and $300 bucks for z-source, 55KW power output. thats a
> massive improvement
I'm actually building one now, for my Master's degree. It's quite
difficult to make all the interconnects, and there is a strange low-load
mode where the output voltage can go very high. This mode is actually
used for starting up fuel cells.
- Arthur
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- john bart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The only advantage i see to welding directly to the
> battery itself is its relatively cleaner and can
> handle higher heat environments without coming
> disconnected.
Oh, man. If the end of a lithium battery got so hot
that solder melted, the battery isn't any good
anymore, anyway.
<snip>
> Maybe doing a test to see which method is better
> should be put into motion. Connect up 6 cells with
> the welding method and 6 cells with the soldering
> method and through some trial tests see where you
> attain better results. I think the results would
> speak better for themselves than arguing one way or
> another. later
>
Yes! Testing should (and has!) been done. By the
battery manufactures. The guys who tell you that you
need to spot weld tabs on the batteries and that
soldering will damage them.
Bill Dube' did some tests on some A123 cells. I don't
remember the exact numbers, but he found that a single
tab can handle about (lets say) 120 amps. Much above
this number (that I hope I'm remembering correctly),
the tabs turn color, heat up and damage the cell.
Spot weld two tabs (one on top of each other), and he
was able to draw much more current without overheating
(I'm not even going to guess what number of amps).
Our battle-bot team (www.botlabs.com) bought a few
nicd intercooled battlepacks
(http://www.battlepack.com/Cooledpack.asp) which have
soldered connections. A lot of these connections now
have a white frost on them, like what you get on
damaged nicds. It didn't matter if it was the oldest,
most used battle pack, or our little used spare that
we only used for fights. I'm sure the battlepack guys
have a lot more experience soldering cells than the
average hobbiest, but still (I believe) soldering
damages cells.
Call up the places where you send in your dead battery
pack (from a power tool, portable ham radio, whatever)
and they will rebuild it for you. They spot weld for
a reason. And it's not because they had too much
money laying around so they decided to spend it on a
spot welder.
When Bill Dube' was using Boulder cells, he didn't get
a reliable pack until he started using cells that had
copper braid spot welded to them. He's tried
soldering, pressure contacts, all sorts of things.
Based on the above experiences, there is no way I am
going to try to solder to cells that cost over $10
each. Everyone is free to try whatever method they
feel comfortable with, but I would just hate to see
someone repeat the same mistakes others have. That's
one of the main purposes of this list, to learn from
others. So if you try something, please report back
to the list so others can learn from your experiences.
But most importantly, Have Fun!
- Steven Ciciora
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2 Aug 2006 at 15:24, Mike Swift wrote:
> Boy the author is very left of center. He would be very happy in
> Joseph Stalin's world, no corporations, and you could do anything you
> want for the environment and the people, a real utopia. : )
>
No politics on the EV list, please. Stay on topic and avoid the flame bait.
The original post here (reasonably) warned that this article leaned left.
This spares the blood pressure of those who might disagree. I would hope
for the same warning for articles which lean right.
I don't see any need for further comment on the matter, since partisan
politics is 100% off topic for the list.
It's a bummer, but like the rest of the country we can't seem to discuss
politics without acrimony. So let's stick with things we >can< agree on.
Thanks folks.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2 Aug 2006 at 14:08, Roger Stockton wrote:
> As I recall, the 12V output is not well-controlled, so it will tend to
> cook your 12V accessory battery if it is used.
Correct. The 12v charger shuts off when the traction charger shuts off. It
has no other charge control whatsoever.
> Unfortunately, if I
> recall correctly, you need to connect the 12V output or else the 120V
> output may not work properly
That wasn't the case with the one I used to have. I abandoned the 12v
section and the 96v section still worked fine. It may be true on some
models, however.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have had this ongoing ordeal of using ACI Superchargers Model 1214CC
as individual battery chargers for my EV. They are similar to DELTRAN
Power Chargers except they are 7amp constant rate smart chargers.
They are great chargers, when they work, but they have been failing
like crazy. I have 10 of them and have had 4 go bad in the past 6
months and 6 more go bad in the past week.
After working with ACI and their sister company Soneil, they have come
to the conclusion that the 1214CC cannot handle the vibration of being
mounted in an EV.
They are sending me an RMA for full refund of any of the units I wish
to return ( working or dead).
Now while it turns out that these chargers, are not a good choice for
this application, I would like to let the group know that ACI and
Soneil have been a pleasure to work with. As well as the dealer, DX
Engineering, who I bought the chargers through and has handled all of
the warranty exchanges.
Just feedback to the group
David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I hired a couple neighborhood boys to help me cart off the 1300 lbs of
dead lead in the box. They stuffed most of it into my wagon for
recycling and I kept 24 of the best batts. The truck is amazingly
higher off of the ground now. Maybe a couple inches front and rear!!
Acceleration is much better now. So I'm really motivated to make a
modified module that will bring this nimh pack up to 312v nominal from
the 273v that it is now. The truck should really haul butt then!!
Mike
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
