EV Digest 5738
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: You know you're a list member when...
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Urgent request for 240V charging in Melbourne or Cocoa Beach, FL for 8/11
Winter Park movie premiere
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Discharge load?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: JET Electrica A/C
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: You know you're a list member when...
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Checking out the mid '80s Toyota Van as a conversion candidate
by Geoff Linkleter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Motor cooling, suck or blow
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Discharge load?
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: You know you're a list member when...
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Feeding power back into the grid (was Re: Discharge load?)
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: You know you're a list member when...
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Licensing help needed for EV
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Configuration question...
by "Joe Plumer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: questions from a newbie
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) CATERPILLAR REINVENTS THE LEAD-ACID BATTERY
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Discharge load?, Gennies an' Stuff.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: NANO TUBE BATTERY
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) Re: You know you're a list member when...
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Discharge load?
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Pasadena HyperMinis Under Assault Now
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: You know you're a list member when...
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) S10 Truck, 2V1 postal? van
by "Michael Mohlere" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Saturn Parts
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) questions from a newbie
by Geoff Linkleter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: NEDRA Late Night Nationals Flyer
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) vehicle modifications
by Staffanson Brian J Civ 309 EMXG/QPE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jim and all,
Thanks for the chuckle! :)
The Mormans avoid your house as you'll talk for 3 hours about EV's.
This is almost even true for me, LOL.
You find yourself at the Mormans house convinced you can convert them, LMAO!
I was converted :) Now I just have to work on everyone else here in
Utah - not many EVers......yet!
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Summer Special - Free shipping on all orders over $500!
Includes Zillas, WarP and Impulse Motors, and PFC Chargers
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hugh Webber has tentatively secured permission from the theater manager in
Winter Park for me to park and display my RAV4-EV on a 20-foot deep section
of sidewalk directly in front of the theater entrance for this weekend's
premiere of "Who Killed the Electric Car?".
I need to confirm this permission with the theater manager tomorrow. If
it's a go, then I'm willing to make the long road trip up to Winter Park;
another ~500-mile weekend adventure in long-distance EV driving.
In order to make this trip, I will need to make an intermediate charging
stop in either Melbourne or Cocoa Beach for about 5 hours in both
directions, on the way up to Winter Park on either Thursday or Friday, and
on the return trip back south on Sunday. I have a 50-foot 10/3 electrical
cable with 10-30, 14-50, and 6-50 plug adapters (such that I can plug into
any of those three types of outlets). I could also make up an adapter for
any additional type of plug tomorrow if I know early enough what type of
outlet(s) is/are available. I need to plug into either a 30A, 40A, or 50A
240V outlet. The RAV can't charge from 120V.
Is there anyone in either Melbourne or Cocoa Beach who could assist me in
trying to find a suitable charging location that would allow me to make this
trip in both directions? e.g. Prof. Frank Leslie at FIT in Melbourne? Bill
Young at FSEC in Cocoa Beach? Anyone else?
Thanks,
Charles Whalen
Florida EAA
Delray Beach, FL
tel: 561-638-6881
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The document actually says "very little Peukert effect".
And that's a relative thing. Also it may vary depending on which brand
of battery we're talking about here.
Danny
Nick Austin wrote:
On Tue, Aug 08, 2006 at 12:47:26PM -0700, Mike Phillips wrote:
Do you suppose that Nimh has much of a Peukert factor?
According to:
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:ZAF2DZ0hZJ0J:www.cobasys.com/pdf/presentations/Intro%2520to%2520NiMH%2520Batt%2520Tech%25208_05.pdf
PbA, and Lithium both have a Peukert effects, but NiMH does not.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do you have the large round motor coupled to a York compressor, the whole unit
sitting underneath the car? If so the whole thing is mounted in rubber
isolation and under the best of circumstances it will still make quite a bit
of noise compared to your solectria, due to the type of compressor. About all
you can do is check the mounts, mounting bolts and such, once you are sure
they are all in good shape verify that the system isn't overcharged or
suffering from too high a head pressure, say from not having a working fan on
the condenser or a dirty condenser. On mine the motor threw a bunch of magnets
then toasted the comm so I just built up a replacement unit for it using a
better motor and a Sanden 508. Good luck, David Chapman.
Quoting DM3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Well - I finally fired up the 81 Jet Electrica I have been restoring. I
> have a refurbished GE EVT15 controller, it seems to do well with the
> Advance DC motor. I am having a little trouble getting the A/C switch to
> work on the dash so I temporarily powered the solenoid to fire up the A/C
> compressor. Yikes!!!! you would think I had a cement mixer in the back
> seat!
> My problem is that I also have a solectria with AC, it is whisper quiet
> compared to the JET set up.
> Does anyone else have a JET Industries A/C set up that is working? If so,
> is it noisy? I am feeding it 132v, it is rated for 96, but man does it
> get cold!. I will try a lower voltage and see if it gets quieter but
> would like to know if it is futile to try and make it quiet.
> Thanks,
> The whole 9 yards
> Jimmy
>
-------------------------------------------------
FastQ Communications
Providing Innovative Internet Solutions Since 1993
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:15 PM 8/08/06 -0700, Jim Husted wrote:
You know you're a list member when...
You think of the Geico lizard as a baby Zilla.
You want to know what wh/hr the Everready bunny gets.
You have a power outage and you hope Rudman's OK.
You think of Bob Rice when you get stopped by a train.
You wonder where the hell Wayland was "after" you blew something up.
You realize that info by those who know how to spell, or do spell
check, is worthless.
You ponder whether anyone reads your posts after no responce to a well
thought out and typed posting, see above!
You drive by a Hooters and wonder if Wayland's giving rides.
You know AC / DC is a war and not a band, hehe.
You Know Gone Postal is a racer and not another mailman fit.
You know that Lawless Ind. makes parade floats and dragsters and not
bad guys.
The Mormans avoid your house as you'll talk for 3 hours about EV's.
You find yourself at the Mormans house convinced you can convert them,
LMAO!
You find that after a vacation you have 1400 emails to go through.
You find 1400 more by the time you went through the first batch.
You think of wierd ideas like making your bumper an electro-magnet and
being able
to hook onto that semi-truck, and would that be considered a hibred.
Your moto is: I used to have a life, now I have a list, hehehe.
You wonder if anyone from Florida will EVer build a fast EV.
You vote for them at Drag Times even though they don't, LMAO!
You consider yourself an EV'er even if you just have the donor body!
You learn G'day is Australian for Hey.
Death to all spammers is not just your feelings but another listee.
Everytime you see a Prius you picture Rich in the back with a set of
jumper cable.
You start to consider EVERY vehicle by its' potential to be an EV,
You buy a new work vehicle to be definately not an EV and STILL look under
it to figure out where the batteries could go.
You haven't finished building the conversion that is under way and you're
already collecting parts for the next 5 vehicles.... or is it 6... maybe
7... or call it 5, some with twin motor setups!
Your stopped behind a vehicle at the lights and look at its' rear axle,
hmmm, front wheel drive, that vehicle has a solid beam axle, it'd take a
diff, how'd that go as a hybrid?
Yoy see a big old broken, oily motor at a junk yard and HAVE to take it
home... then wish the freight to Redmond, Oregon, wasn't so prohibitively
high.... and Jim Husted is probably very happy that the freight to Redmond
Oregon is so prohibitively high!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The attached link is to a UK site which gives some good background
info on these vans (known as a townace or liteace in the UK)......
although much of it is to do with ICE problems which won't worry
you!
http://www.townace.com/
http://members.spboards.com/index.php?mforum=ukaces
In Europe and Japan many of them came with a Toyota 2CT diesel ICE
which from memory was only rated at about 85HP peak. You should
easily be able to better that with an EV conversion. Mind, they did
require patience for freeway driving!
Geoff
---------------------------------
You know, you're right! I've been trying to figure
out what to do for a decent batt. van.
Chrysler 80's: light, available in stick, but no
headrests!
Ford Aerostar: mostly automatics. Mechanical issues.
GM: Heavy. Sticks?
That mid-engine design would have some sweet handling
with Pb-acid in it! Seats come up and forward for
access. Would be nice if the potbox, DCDC, controller
et.al were easy access. On the flip side, not too
much air going to the controller...
Should be interesting!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get a spam free email account - Visit http://www.bluebottle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello John,
The about 150 CFM blower is about right. The blower fan I have is a 150 CFM
6 inch diameter Dayton 12 volt that is also from Grainger.
I have two different motors which this fans fits on the brush cover. On the
GE-11 the brush cover is steel, so a square hole was cut into this cover and
the blower is bolted to a 1 inch thick insulation board that I got from a
motor shop. Shaped it out to fit the curved of the cover.
It can be tapped for screw holes which I mounted it my inserting flat head
screws from the bottom of the brush cover. The fan base is than bolted to
this adapter board with 6 No. 10-32 Hex headed machine screws.
Between the blower fan base and between the adapter base and the blower
cover and blower cover to the motor, I install a 1/8 inch thick sheet
rubber, to form a thick gasket and reduce the fan noise which will transmit
with a metal to metal contact.
The same type of fan is use on my Warp motors. The Warp motors have a
screen cover, so I made a adapter base plate by having a steel yard cut a
piece of 10 gage pipe tubing to about the same width of the screen cover
plus fitting flush with the face of the motor.
I cut a segment curved out of this tubing, cut a square fan hole in it and
also place a 1/8 rubber sheet between this adapter and the brush screen.
Fit this curved segment to the brush screen and flush to the motor face. On
the Warp, ADC and other motors, you will note there is bolt holes on the
face of the motor, so I fit two steel tabs coming down on the face of the
motor which is than welded to the steel curved bracket.
The Dayton blower fan motor housing is than bolted to this steel adapter
using the same 1 inch thick insulation board which fits the flat base of the
fan to the curved of the motor.
You will also note that the input air section of the blower fan has a large
surface area, where you can fit a standard 6 inch diameter carburetor air
cleaner housing. I install a aluminum bar across the inlet open which is
tap for a threaded rod, which is use to bolt the air cleaner cover and
filter to the fan.
I used the standard 2-pole water tight auto plastic type of plugs you can
pick up from some auto parts store. This makes it easy to remove the fan
unit, by just unplugging and removing two bolts from the face of the motor.
The maximum temperature that my motors get, is the same temperature that the
ambient air is at.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 10:58 PM
Subject: Motor cooling, suck or blow
> OK, I took the Servi out last night and went about 11 miles. It still
> read
> 50.0 volts after sitting 20 minutes. The battery fuel gauge showed just
> under half way to its setpoint of 80% DOD. The motor however was very
> warm.
> My experience is that if it is uncomfortable to leave your bare hand on a
> motor for more than a couple of seconds then it is about 180 deg. F. That
> is where the motor seems to be so I expect I will need to add some
> additional air flow on the motor.
>
> So the question becomes, do I blow into the brush end of the motor, the
> opposite end (where the fan is) or suck from one end or the other. The
> fan
> on the motor is a standard straight radial blade fan so I expect it is
> blowing out and trying to draw the air in at the brush end. Is that
> correct? I located a small centrifugal fan at Graingers that can run on
> the
> 12 volt system that has 148 CFM at .5" static pressure. Should this be
> enough assistance to help cool the motor?
>
> Other info gathered from the ride is top speed right at 38 MPH and the amp
> draw about 100. The meter is a little small to read accurately when
> running.
>
> I am thinking of changing my ratio from 7.93:1 to 8.54:1 overall. I know
> this should lower the heating problem in the motor could it also actually
> raise the top end by letting the motor spin faster against the load? Or
> am
> I trying to get something for nothing and really the bike is going to take
> X
> amount of power to move at 38 MPH and the ratio doesn't really have so
> much
> effect on speed as it does on motor load?
>
> respectfully,
> John
> 58 Harley Servi-car conversion still in pprogress
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor,
My elec co here in Tucson is Trico (www.trico.coop ), and while they may never
say it is 'illegal' to connect to their system without their 'permission', it
sure is implied many many times. Here is just one instance from their "Sun
Watts" Program. (http://trico.coop/documents/sunwatts_handbook.pdf)
"All ON-GRID customer solar electric generating systems must meet the following
system and installation requirements (e.g., systems to be connected to Trico's
electric distribution system)."
So in my opinion, it is highly illegal, but I also have to say, I know of no
one that has been prosecuted for 'connecting' without 'permissison'.
In any case, I don't think it makes any sense to debate the 'merits' of various
elec co practices here... especially when they buy back at the avoided cost and
not at what we, the public, pay per KWH.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
PS chek out my article in Homepower,
http://www.ironandwood.org/graphics/RV_PV.pdf
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 10:18 PM
Subject: RE: Discharge load?
> Hi Rush,
>
> Check the back issues of Homepower for WHY they used the
> guerilla tactic and what Homepower endorsed: it was always
> stressed that it was guerilla because the red tape was so
> massive that it could take years before a perfect system
> could even be turned 'on' and sometimes it was made impossible
> simply because a bureaucrat did not like it.
> Often it was even to conquer the *illegal* refusal to allow
> the grid connection, therefore the attitude of "we will
> connect it anyway, because we know it is perfectly safe"
> and the hoopla from the power company is only to cover up
> that they should allow this, but they don't like it....
>
> The 'highly illegal' part is highly debatable.
>
> Cor van de Water
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You wonder if anyone from Florida will EVer build a fast EV.
Them's fighting words, Jim!
We will be happy to race any of you boys but you need to learn how to turn.
There's more to EV racing than DC and drag strips<G>.
Great List!
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok that makes more sense! I thought you were saying it would actually
change the frequency if everything was operating as it should.
--
Martin K
Cor van de Water wrote:
Yes.
When the freq changes, it's a sign of disconnect, so it is
a sure indication to stop.
That is why it is in the "anti-islanding" requirements for
grid-connected inverters. When they are suddenly an 'island'
(disconnected from the grid) they may either detect a
voltage out of range condition or a frequency out of range
condition, both are specified with tight tolerances in the
mandatory safety features, that is why power companies are
not too scared about inverters from solar installations.
Now an AC motor feeding back is another story....
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 1:49 AM
Subject: Re: You know you're a list member when...
> Hi Jim and all,
>
> Thanks for the chuckle! :)
> >
> > The Mormans avoid your house as you'll talk for 3 hours about EV's.
> >
> This is almost even true for me, LOL.
> >
> > You find yourself at the Mormans house convinced you can convert them,
LMAO!
> >
> I was converted :) Now I just have to work on everyone else here in
> Utah - not many EVers......yet!
>
> -Ryan
> --
> Wonder how that would work with Jahovah's Witnesses<g>! Interesting how
they park their getaway car READY, doors open for quick loading, and
getaway., if things don't go smoothly. I watched this, stripped down. Just
coming to the door just dressed in a old pair of boxer shorts worked great
last time. "Yes! I Sleep daze, work nites"They left, didn't EVen see the EV
in the yard.
My two shorts worth.
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Last I knew Illinois was not third world.
Like others have suggested, go up the chain, and alert the media. That kind
of crap is the reason we have the media and the U.S. Constitution's First
Amendment.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
> Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to license this in
> Illinois? One employee who obviously overheard the conversation took
> me aside as I exited 3 hours and $25 lighter, and asked me to use some
> connections, as that is how business is done.
> Does anyone have any connections?
________________________________________________
Message sent using UebiMiau 2.7.9
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm looking to convert my current commuter car to an EV and have been doing
research towards that end.
I'm looking for thoughts on my possible configuration.
The big question is about the drive motor and not knowing if it is
sufficient.
Looking at a DC motor rated at 17.5 hp operating at 72 V and limiting
maximum current
to 300 A this is the battery configuration that I came up with using the 1/3
vehicle
weight guidleline for batteries.
6 12 V batteries in series with a C/10 rating of 130 A.
My thought was that I would run three of these ciruits in parallel to
provide up to 390 A
max. Total battery weight would be < 570 lbs.
Would this work? And would this actually increase the range of the vehicle
over just
going with one series of batteries and pushing the C/5 rate of 260 A?
Thoughts? Questions? As far as controllers, if I were to go with something
like this,
will I be able to get a controller off the shelf, or will I have to engineer
one to these
specs?
Thanks for your input.
Joe
_________________________________________________________________
Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Reid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: questions from a newbie
> Bob,
>
> The OW distance is about 22 miles with unfortunately little chance of
> charging the batteries at the "B" end.
> There are lots of potential donor cars like the rabbit that I could pick
up
> at a good price - rust not too big a problem. The main issue is the
battery.
> Anyone have any knowledge on the Zebra battery?
> http://www.betard.co.uk/zebra.htm
>
> Ron
>
> Hi Ron an' EVerybody;
I guess you are closer to the source of the Zebra battery? You are a
quick train ride through the Chunnel, to France where more EV stuff is going
on?EVen being able to buy an EV, and driving it back to UK.If you are
ambitious enougfh you could build a "Red Beastie", Type of pickup. THE RB
toted 40 golf cart T 105's in the bed and forward engine room! Was pretty
much maxed out as a truk, but was good for towing or a reliable 100 mile
range. Unfortunately it died in Tony's fire that DESTROYED his EV Juice Bar
and Motorcycle haven.Hey J Wayland! I have the salvaged tailgate, to bring
out to PDX, complete with scorch marks! The Motor- tranny lived, too, it's
in my van, too. It seemed a shame to torch the chassis as I think you coulda
put a car body or another truck on it?Made a Black Beastie Bear , sports
car?A page from UNiversity of Maine. They used an S-10 chassis, for theirs.
But, Ron, you arent alone. Their are other guyz in the UK into EV's, some
are active List members, too. Check them out, as they are on the roads and
Motorways, already. Yeah, we need more "Motorways" here, only cars with
MOTORS, no ICE's I think what ya have in mind is very do able. How many
mountains ya gota drive over to get home? The OTHER ruling facter.
Seeya
Bob
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 5:46 PM
> Subject: Re: questions from a newbie
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ron Reid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 7:28 AM
> > Subject: questions from a newbie
> >
> >
> >> I am a UK based with a 45 mile daily commute which is starting to bug
my
> >> conscience and pocket.
> >> I need a vehicle that will cover my commute at motorway speeds
> >> (60-70mph -
> >> 80 if possible). The easy route is to buy but there is no EV
commercially
> >> available in the UK that will meet my needs which leaves the
> > kit/conversion
> >> option.
> >> I am a lapsed engineer so the project interests me but I need to shake
> >> the
> >> dust off my technical training & realistically work out what this will
> > cost
> >> me. There are a number of books listed in the FAQ which could do the
> > trick,
> >> can someone give me a recommendation?
> >>
> >> Also, my research so far appears to preclude lead acid battery
technology
> >> for the distance I need. Has lithium battery technology reached the
point
> >> that it can cost justify itself in an EV & where can I get more info?
> >>
> >> Ron
> >>
> >
> > Hey Ron;
> >
> > You didn't say if a 45 mile commute was RT or OW?? This is a biggie
> > here.
> > I ran a 82 Rabbit, maybe Golf in the UK? A lite shitbox car stuffed with
> > 20
> > golf cart batteries, so I could get home for sure IF my plugs were Iced
at
> > work.I ran on the turnpike at 60-70MPH like yur Motorways, most of the
> > way.
> > I worked at the RR as a train driver, and wired a set of plug-in's at
the
> > roundhouse area, nobody cared, whats a few amps in a train yard of
> > electric
> > trains?I lived happily for YEARS with a 120 volt outlet and a 100 foot
or
> > more 'stench chord!THAT was my dropping resister for a Bad Boy charging
> > setup! In UK build a 240 volt car and just plugitin with a simple full
> > wave
> > bridge.There MUST be nice lite small cars in UK that would make good
donar
> > cars?Or do all your older cars disolve in dismaying blights of rust in
10
> > years as they do in CT, USA?
> >
> > My too watts worth
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This has been on the list before, but I think there's
updated info concerning cost of materials.
Rod
CATERPILLAR REINVENTS THE LEAD-ACID BATTERY
Lead-acid batteries havenât changed much since 1859.
The chemistry is well understood, production costs are
low, and there is an established recycling
infrastructure. On the other hand, the batteries are
heavy and the lead grids break down. Heavy-equipment
maker Caterpillar (Peoria, IL), tired of in-the-field
failures and excessive warranty costs, set out on a
two-year mission to find a supplier with a better
technology, andâhaving failedâturned to its R&D
staff to come up with a better solution. The result
was exciting enough to convince Caterpillar to
transfer the scientists and all rights to the budding
technology to a jointly funded company, Firefly Energy
(Peoria, IL; www.fireflyenergy.com). Its partners in
this venture include BAE Systems, Electrolux, and the
State of Illinois.
âKurt Kelley, an advanced materials scientist, got
the assignment, and he began by taking a lot of
lead-acid batteries apart,â says Mil Ovan, senior
v.p. and co-founder of Firefly. âHis first idea was
to put a carbon nano layer on a lead grid to delay the
corrosion effect on the plates, but the corrosion
still won.â Thatâs when he spotted the piece of
black graphite foam sitting on a fellow researcherâs
desk. Caterpillar had gotten the foam from one of the
national labs and was investigating it for a
next-generation radiator. Kelley, however, envisioned
using it as a replacement for lead grids. âFlowing
the lead throughout the porous structure of the foam
increased the surface area about 2,000 times when
compared to a typical lead grid,â explains Ovan.
âPlus, the foam is stronger and lighter than lead
plates, and the increased surface area means you need
less of it to give the same power.â The real upside,
however, is the fact that the graphite foam doesnât
sulfate like lead grids do, which means the negative
plates donât get covered in an electrically
impenetrable coating if left to sit for any length of
time.
A visual comparison of conventional and graphite foam
lead-acid battery cells of similar output.
There are other benefits as well. The electrolyte in a
lead-acid battery is a big resistor due to the
distance the ions must travel between the grids. In
the Firefly battery, this space has been reduced from
millimeters to microns. As a result, the ability to
both send out power and recharge is claimed to be
dramatically better. âThe Firefly battery has about
seven times the recharge speed of a typical lead-acid
battery, and its output doesnât diminish if it is
left discharged for any length of time,â says Ovan.
This means the technology has potential for use in
hybrid vehicles.
To find out more, youâll probably have to do what
the partnering companies have, which is to invest
heavily and sign a non-dis-closure agreement. One
reason is that the numbers associated with battery
technologies are suspect at best. Or, as Ovan puts it
in a Mark Twain-like quote: âThere are liars, damn
liars, and battery companies.â To get a true
comparison, itâs necessary to look at the number of
cells, temperature range, application, discharge rate,
and other parameters that influence how a technology
performs. And Caterpillar, Electrolux and BAE Systems
have been given performance numbers based on
applications they chose.
However, there is one area Ovan is sure his
companyâs technology has everyone else beat: cost.
âWhat people donât appreciate is that the cost of
the cobalt used in lithium-ion batteries has jumped
from $40,000 to $60,000 per ton, and the nickel-metal
chemistry has jumped from $10,000 to $14,000 per ton
in the last 18 months due to Chinaâs increased
demand for stainless steel,â he says. Lead, on the
other hand, has risen from $500 to $1,000 per ton. So
while the Firefly battery may be slightly more
expensive than a conventional lead-acid design in
terms of dollars per kilowatt-hour, prototype units
use half the lead. The next generation will use ¼ the
amount.
Electroluxâit owns Husqvarna, Poulan, Weed Eater,
and makes lawn and garden tractors for Searsâis the
first customer for the Firefly battery, and is
focusing its efforts on lawn and garden applications.
In addition, says Ovan, âa couple of car companies
are interested, and we expect to be making samples
they can test.ââCAS
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi All;
All this grid link stuff got me to add a few comments. If the grid goes
down, chances are that YOUR wimpy home made setup will just overload out
TRYING to pick up the "islanded" grid, anyhow. To a home power guy it would
be a near short circuit, anyhow. SO you would quickly remember to open yur
circuit breaker, when TRYING to get the lites back on. For you guyz with
Diseasel Locomotive size 3000 HP setups this may not apply? But here in CT
the flyers that the electric Co sends out, they warn ya NOT to feed back
into the line. So they are aware that SOMEBODY does, or COULD." Have a
licensed 'lectrician install your genny" in so many words.Yeah ,I can see
half of CT lit on my Briggs an Scrapiron powered genny<g>! Line men,
nowadaze go by" If it isn't grounded it isn't Dead" They EVen have those
stickers all over their line trux. Good EV bumper stickers? Along with
Metro North RR's ' Watch the Gap" they stick on EVERY train door. DUH! Their
has been a GAP between train doors and the platform since Christ was a kid,
but ya have to keep TELLING people?!
My too watts worth.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
True, but, I am not the author of the statement you responded to.
Ken
In a message dated 8/8/2006 3:10:44 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Aug 8, 2006, at 12:01 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> P.S. I heard from someone else that whoever actually provides the
> funding for
> the research is the owner of anything discovered. Is this true?
As usual, it depends, but this is true in many cases.
Think about it: why would someone with money give it to you to develop
an invention, and then let you keep all rights to it (and all the
profit potential)? Presumably the person with money is looking to make
more of it.
>
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Amen!
Mike
>
> There's more to EV racing than DC and drag strips<G>.
>
> Great List!
>
> Cliff
> www.ProEV.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Moving electrons across conductors doesn't leave much of a paper
trail. They would have a hard time proving you ever were connected to
their grid. So a lawsuit is unlikely.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Cor,
>
> My elec co here in Tucson is Trico (www.trico.coop ), and while they
may never say it is 'illegal' to connect to their system without their
'permission', it sure is implied many many times. Here is just one
instance from their "Sun Watts" Program.
(http://trico.coop/documents/sunwatts_handbook.pdf)
>
> "All ON-GRID customer solar electric generating systems must meet
the following system and installation requirements (e.g., systems to
be connected to Trico's electric distribution system)."
>
> So in my opinion, it is highly illegal, but I also have to say, I
know of no one that has been prosecuted for 'connecting' without
'permissison'.
>
> In any case, I don't think it makes any sense to debate the 'merits'
of various elec co practices here... especially when they buy back at
the avoided cost and not at what we, the public, pay per KWH.
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
>
> PS chek out my article in Homepower,
http://www.ironandwood.org/graphics/RV_PV.pdf
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 10:18 PM
> Subject: RE: Discharge load?
>
>
> > Hi Rush,
> >
> > Check the back issues of Homepower for WHY they used the
> > guerilla tactic and what Homepower endorsed: it was always
> > stressed that it was guerilla because the red tape was so
> > massive that it could take years before a perfect system
> > could even be turned 'on' and sometimes it was made impossible
> > simply because a bureaucrat did not like it.
> > Often it was even to conquer the *illegal* refusal to allow
> > the grid connection, therefore the attitude of "we will
> > connect it anyway, because we know it is perfectly safe"
> > and the hoopla from the power company is only to cover up
> > that they should allow this, but they don't like it....
> >
> > The 'highly illegal' part is highly debatable.
> >
> > Cor van de Water
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Marc,
LONG time lister (more "lurker" in recent years), but I wanted to let
you know my wife & I will be in the Huntington beach area for the
weekend (wedding anniversary) starting this Friday and we want to get
involved with this. Can you let me know current activities (sit-in, lay-
in, whatever) or link me up with others who are involved? I can't think
of better way to spend our anniversary than being arrested for trying
to halt this stupid senseless and on-going assault on our moral
responsibilities.
[My last visit to Pasadena was for a sales call at JPL ~2004. I damn
near fell out of my rental car when I saw all the EV's in town! I was
actually staying in Santa Monica and had met with a couple of folks in
the city EV fleet there, so it was a VERY refreshing EV weekend!]
MANY thanks in advance & best regards,
Jim Waite
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://austinev.org/evalbum/021.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Excellent! Sounds like a blues tune ready to be written.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hey all
>
> I had some time on my hands as I drove back from Portland after
lunch with Wayland and the usual motor run. I added some to those I
had thought up earlier. These are in no particular order and I hope
you enjoy, sorry if I missed anyone.
> Cya
> Jim Husted
>
> You know you're a list member when...
>
> You think of the Geico lizard as a baby Zilla.
>
> You want to know what wh/hr the Everready bunny gets.
>
> You have a power outage and you hope Rudman's OK.
>
> You think of Bob Rice when you get stopped by a train.
>
> You wonder where the hell Wayland was "after" you blew something up.
>
> You realize that info by those who know how to spell, or do spell
check, is worthless.
>
> You ponder whether anyone reads your posts after no responce to a
well
> thought out and typed posting, see above!
>
> You drive by a Hooters and wonder if Wayland's giving rides.
>
> You know AC / DC is a war and not a band, hehe.
>
> You Know Gone Postal is a racer and not another mailman fit.
>
> You know that Lawless Ind. makes parade floats and dragsters and
not bad guys.
>
> The Mormans avoid your house as you'll talk for 3 hours about EV's.
>
> You find yourself at the Mormans house convinced you can convert
them, LMAO!
>
> You find that after a vacation you have 1400 emails to go through.
>
> You find 1400 more by the time you went through the first batch.
>
> You think of wierd ideas like making your bumper an electro-magnet
and being able
> to hook onto that semi-truck, and would that be considered a hibred.
>
> Your moto is: I used to have a life, now I have a list, hehehe.
>
> You wonder if anyone from Florida will EVer build a fast EV.
>
> You vote for them at Drag Times even though they don't, LMAO!
>
> You consider yourself an EV'er even if you just have the donor body!
>
> You learn G'day is Australian for Hey.
>
> Death to all spammers is not just your feelings but another listee.
>
> Everytime you see a Prius you picture Rich in the back with a set
of jumper cable.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.
Great rates starting at 1¢/min.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All -
I have tried in vain to locate a chevy s10, regular cab, long bed (has
longer wheel base by about 8 inches), manual tranny truck to convert - I'm
about convinced they do not exist, as the only ones I have seen (reg cab,
long bed) have automatic transmissions. Thinking I will stick to reg cab,
short bed, as they are fairly plentiful.
** Curious if anyone on the list has seen or owns a reg cab, long bed,
manual transmission S10.
** Also, a friend of a friend owns a "2V1" (postal?) van...anyone heard of
this animal? Is it, or the guts of it worth anything???
Thx, Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are any of the parts the same as a 92 SC? My upper dash is barely sitting there.
You should convert the thing.
Rick
Does anyone have a use for a 95 Saturn as a parts car?
It may be joining it's cousins in Mesa Proving Grounds.
Shopping for a Ranger glider.
BTW, through the Solectria sale,
I didn't get a car, but I found a buddy
who wants to build a Ranger EV...
gee, the kind of thing a Kostov would power :?)
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ron, 2 thoughts
(i) In my (limited) experience the cost of batteries is significantly higher in
the UK than is often talked about on the list.
(ii) If you are not really keen on building an ev I would have thought the best
choice would be to look for a Citroen Berlingo or Saxo EV. Either of these
would just about meet your performance rerquirements and they occasionally
appear for sale, even on e-bay. There are several people on the list who can
help you support one.
You could even think about looking for one in France, where they are more
common, if you could live with LHD. Phillipe could probably help.
Geoff
----------------------------------
I am a UK based with a 45 mile daily commute which is starting to bug my
conscience and pocket.
I need a vehicle that will cover my commute at motorway speeds (60-70mph -
80 if possible). The easy route is to buy but there is no EV commercially
available in the UK that will meet my needs which leaves the kit/conversion
option.
I am a lapsed engineer so the project interests me but I need to shake the
dust off my technical training & realistically work out what this will cost
me. There are a number of books listed in the FAQ which could do the trick,
can someone give me a recommendation?
Also, my research so far appears to preclude lead acid battery technology
for the distance I need. Has lithium battery technology reached the point
that it can cost justify itself in an EV & where can I get more info?
Ron
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get a spam free email account - Visit http://www.bluebottle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Jim!
Yep, I thought you'd like the "Car-Toon" of the "Siamese 8."
I'm setting up the artwork for the T-shirt version now and hoping to
get it to the printer today.
Pretty cool to hear John has it as a screen saver :-)
See Ya
Chip
Hey Chip
I totally dig the artwork, I see you even did the Siamese motor
setup on WZ to funny. I tweaked the CE plate on GP's front motor
though so you might have to do some editing, lmao, sorry for the
late notice, hehehe. Seriously, it totally rocks, can't wait to
get me a T-shirt. I saw Wayland had it as a screensaver today on
his laptop even.
Cya
Jim Husted
Roy LeMeur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Folks
Here are two versions, a GIF and PDF.
http://www.retro-electro.org/Late_Night_Nats_Flyer.pdf
http://www.retro-electro.org/late_night_flyer.gif
The t-shirts will be similar.
Enjoy
Roy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Having spent many months lurking about, listening on lots of things I never
thought about, and learning things, I have a few questions that I haven't
seen brought up regarding the building of the EV.
First, I have seen some custom built battery boxes in the car somewhere,
usually welded in. If I want to do a similar thing, I will be modifying my
car, meaning cutting stuff out and welding things in. I don't know much
about welding, and don't know much about how car frames work, and what will
happen if I make a significant change to the body. The car is a '74 VW
super beetle, and I am thinking of removing the front tire, and building a
square box there, and putting the spare somewhere else. (Or removing it, as
I won't be traveling real long distances.) The question is, can I go to a
local welding company, which is within a half mile of my home to have this
done? Or should it be done by an auto body shop, that knows about the frame
of a car, and how changing it will affect it?
A second question being similar, it has been mentioned here that you should
make sure that the weight added isn't over some special number (something
like GVWR). How is this number decided? Does it have to due with
suspension, the frame, all, none, etc? Is there a way to increase this
special number, so you can carry more weight?
I appreciate any thoughts, opinions, concerns, etc that anyone will have.
Thanks,
Brian
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