EV Digest 5760
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Question.
by "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) article: Tesla Roadster Sells Out First 100 Cars
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Lithium Safety
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: modern dc motors
by Joe Vitek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: battery trailer
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: battery trailer
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: My ICE Costs
by "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: article: Tesla Roadster Sells Out First 100 Cars
by Joe Vitek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Longer Range EV ideas?
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Lithium Safety
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: My ICE Costs
by "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: battery trailer
by "Ev Performance (Robert Chew)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: article: Tesla Roadster Sells Out First 100 Cars
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: mountain ev
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Oregonian Reporter Gets Zombied!
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Lithium Safety
by Dennis Foulke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: modern dc motors
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: article: Tesla Roadster Sells Out First 100 Cars
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Solar charging an EV - off grid
by Meta Bus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Wilderness Electric Vehicle warning
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: My ICE Costs
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Question.
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: modern dc motors
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: My ICE Costs
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: article: Tesla Roadster Sells Out First 100 Cars
by "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Solar charging an EV - off grid
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: IGBTs and DC controllers
by "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Shunting Regen (Was: mountain ev)
by Meta Bus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: IGBTs and DC controllers
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: IGBTs and DC controllers
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) Re: IGBTs and DC controllers
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
32) =?Windows-1252?Q?RE:_NEDRA_EVent_in_Alaska_=28was_Re:_EV=92s_show_at_the_?=
=?Windows-1252?Q?Alaska_Renewable_...=29?=
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
33) =?Windows-1252?Q?RE:_NEDRA_EVent_in_Alaska_=28was_Re:_EV=92s_show_at_the_?=
=?Windows-1252?Q?Alaska_Renewable_...=29?=
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
34) Re: IGBTs and DC controllers
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I have a 1990 2 seater convertible Geo Metro that I am going to covert to
Electric. I would like to keep the same kind of performance that the
current 3 cylinder has now.. Which is nothing special .. What do you all
recommend for a motor for it?.. I heard that it is a ideal car to convert.
Thanks
Zeb
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This could be good news, Tesla may be able to prove that there really is
a market for EVs:
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/tesla-roadster-sells-out-first-100-cars-194460.php
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The fires have occurred, as best I can determine, since 2002... at least for
the tarmac fire. I didn't check on when the aircraft went down (killing all
passengers). It wasn't a US flight, so data is minimal, and it went down in
the ocean, though data indicates something burned through the aircraft where
the batteries were stored. In this case, it was hearing aid (sized)
batteries.
What I don't understand is why the entire group of batts would fail, if a
single unit shorts out.
Many of these seem to be batts from China. It makes me worry that some
company, knowing their batts weren't safe, might have fed a Chinese company
an unsafe design. McNair isn't known for producing quality batteries... they
can't even get LA batts "right"... and their batts are the reason for the
Disney (children's) DVD player recall... though McNair says it's not the
fault of their batteries.
BTW, these fires weren't from batts being charged. They were from those
sitting, awaiting shipment, or (in the case onboard) possibly from those
being used to power equipment. When I had a set of batts melt down my
charger, I assumed the fault was in the charger. Now I wonder.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 8:49 PM
Subject: Lithium Safety
> Lithium Ion with the cobolt electrode when ruptured and shorted goes
> ballistic and produces a hell of a burnning mass.
>
> But Switching to manganese eliminates the problem(creates a few more),
> And Lithium polymer don't generally have the problem at all.
>
> I believe older litium ion cells had more of an issue than the newer
> versions. How many RECENT fires ?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Martin K wrote:
>
> super-ebike is what I'm thinking :)
That would rock!
> The problem with an ebike is that it can't look like it has too much
> stuff on it or you're going to get the attention of the (village) police.
Just have a govern switch that won't allow it to go over 20mph unassisted that
you can hit when pulled over. ;) Of course, you would want acceleration to 20mph
to kick some major butt...
--
joe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've always been puzzled by this. If one is going to tow a genset (or as a
local does be pushed by a diesel Rabbit front end) why not just buy an ICE?
Used cars *have* to be cheaper than going to all this trouble.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ev Performance (Robert Chew)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: battery trailer
> Yes, thats the idea.
>
> It'll be real damn small. I also need to consult with the road
authorities
> to see if it can be registered etc. But towing a portable biodiesel
> generator would be ideal. Diesel gensets weigh a tonne.
>
> Now, i just need to get my hands on a diesel genset.
>
> Cheers all
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Perry wrote:
I've always been puzzled by this. If one is going to tow a genset (or as a
local does be pushed by a diesel Rabbit front end) why not just buy an ICE?
Used cars *have* to be cheaper than going to all this trouble.
Sure, used cars are cheaper and less trouble. If the point is to
just move yourself to another place beyond the range of an electric
car, then a used car would do the job. However, if the point is to
move the electric car to a point beyond it's range, then the used car
is of no value at all. I drive my electric in town every day. Its
range is more than adequate to meet almost all of my
needs. Occasionally I am asked to display it in other towns for
various events. Now I could purchase, borrow, or rent a large truck
and trailer to carry it to the event, but instead I built the
pusher. Obviously this gets better fuel economy than the truck and
trailer, and it means I don't have to locate a truck when I want to travel.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
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--- Begin Message ---
Roland,
A company call ESMA in Russia makes supercapacitors that are used to drive
service trucks and buses. They are as big or bigger than batteries.
They would cost about $40,000.00 for my car. See www.esma-cap.com
These Cobalt cells are very heavy. They weigh about 50 lbs per cell and
would cost about $6000.00 for 42 cell block which weighs about 2000 lbs
each.
To drive my car today, this would cost me (factory cost) about $15,000.00
for a 180 volt pack. They are not on the shelf units. They are made by
special order as need to fit new and existing battery cases. They are
normally a proto type battery as of now. You can get them from The Appollo
Energy Systems. www.apolloenergysystems.com
Thanks for the website tips on caps and batteries.
Those ESMA capacitor modules have a max voltage of only 52v for the traction
type!
What if your pack is *much* higher? like 360V?
Must batt pack volts equal cap pack voltage?
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul Wujek wrote:
>
> This could be good news, Tesla may be able to prove that there really is
> a market for EVs:
Well, dang, and I was just about to lay down $100k too. Darn, I guess I will
have
to wait ;)
I would really like to just lay down $25k for Al's drivetrain and build my own.
<dreaming again>
I think this is great. I can hardly wait 'til they deliver them all and go on to
the next project...
--
joe
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
After reading about folks who drive the Toyota RAV-EVs, I have been
wondering how one could match or at least approach that kind of
performance with a home conversion. Not a converted RAV, just
something to match its functionality. Could an EV conversion be
built that meets the following:
Range: 125 miles useable at 60-70 mph
Seating capacity 4 adults in comfort (probably requires each has
their own door)
Climate controlled, both air conditioning and heating
Power steering
Power brakes
Could it be done for say $25,000 plus the donor chassis? What would
it look like? What would you build? Thoughts?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They were talking about that at work today.
Those appear to be the sony 18650 lithium ion cells. Old style, great
power density, Great cost value, but explosively flammable.
If we switch to Manganese anode material we eliminate some of this but
they have diminished life at elevated temperatures. Also less cell
voltage so electronics have to be re-worked. Less voltage means higher
current which is more heat :-(
As I understand it there are two types of fires. The electrolye is
flammable and exposure to air accelerates this. Lithium ion has free
electrolyte (not captured in a polymer) and is easier to burn.
The second type of fire comes from the internal shorting of a charged
cell, This intense heat can get the metal oxides burning.
Here is a site with some interesting info (just don't bother to email
this guy unless you are a big wig, he isn't interested in us hobbiest)
http://www.predmaterials.com/en_batt/index.html
ON page 15 of the pdf
http://www.predmaterials.com/files/L410-2006-V9-En.pdf
they do the nail penatration test.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
Victor can supply you with one sweet system, top-of-the-line all the
way, but you need to be comfortable with his price range
(http://metricmind.com/prices.htm).
Hi DtAS,
So I noticed. I would like an AC system, but it looks like I'll have to
cobble it together myself piece by piece.
Probably 1975 dollars, so that shows you how far we've come:
A 156V/1000A Zilla *is* $2K, if Otmar can get caught up on his
backorders, or $1500 for a 144V/500A Curtis if he can't;
Curtis is not an option, voltage is too low. Zilla looks good. Just an off
the cuff estimate, but I guess the voltage I'm shooting for would be about
360v.
Chargers are 2-3x that much if you want ones with some smarts, but
about that much (or even less) if you use something that takes human
input to keep the pack alive;
Chargers. I had a boat once, a 40 ft trawler. I recall that I bought a fully
programmable BMS for my deep cycle "house" batteries from a marine store for
$300. This could handle 70A from my giant alternators and charged up my 8D
banks beautifully. Could something like this be adapted for EV use?
And don't forget $1-2K for a series DC motor. So, $4-5K before
shopping for batteries.
An AC setup runs more for each item.
I've been unable to find prices for Siemens AC motors off the web without
e-mailing somebody and don't want to do that because I'm not anywhere near
purchase time yet.
Most of this equipment will outlast your donor, and could be
transfered to a new ride if you get tired of out-dated car styling or
suffer body damage, so the pack and electricity are the basis for
cost-per-mile.
Ryan G. Plut
"Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it" - G.
Bernard Shaw
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--- Begin Message ---
Yep, it is also more efficient if you leave the ICE in the car so that the
petrol energy can be used to move the car mechanically and not through a
genset where its being converted to mechanical and then electrical and then
if charging batteries, chemical.
Cheers
On 16/08/06, Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:28:52 -0500, you wrote:
>Don M wrote:
>
>>Trailers like this used to be common back in the 50's
>>and 60's. I'm sure someone still makes them somewhere
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Category.taf?CategoryID=441&pricetype=
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm impressed! 100 people have paid $100,000 deposits for a Tesla.
I'd never pay a deposit like that. I wouldn't have an hour's peace of
mind while worrying about whether the company would fail to deliver
my car or refund my money. Corbin Motors took prepayments for
Sparrows and left a number of people hanging with no Sparrow and no
refund.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Wujek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 7:01 PM
Subject: article: Tesla Roadster Sells Out First 100 Cars
This could be good news, Tesla may be able to prove that there really is a
market for EVs:
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/tesla-roadster-sells-out-first-100-cars-194460.php
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 15 Aug 2006 at 10:05, Robb Wallen wrote:
> how can I
> leave "room" for the descent energy in the batteries with out risking
> their longevity.
Use NiCd or NiMH. They can be left in any state of charge indefinitely with
no damage at all.
Of course nickel chemistry is, shall we say, a bit pricey. So, here's an
interesting thought. What if you fitted a lead pack for your traction, then
added a small-capacity NiMH battery from a wrecked Prius? Leave the Prius
pack mostly discharged at night, and use it to absorb the regen down the
initial hill. Then either transfer its energy to the main traction battery,
or otherwise use it to drive the vehicle. Now you have a gasless hybrid.
Of course now my lack of engineering expertise kicks in and I have no clue
about the details of effectively and efficiently using the energy so saved
... maybe others have some thoughts on this.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Great story John!
You can start training astronauts now!
I can related to this guys "Gs". I'll never forget back in May when
Tim gave me a ride in the Zombie. The acceleration (when he floored
it from 35 mph, not just from a dead stop) flipped my NEDRA hat
backwards into the back of the car. Tim laughed and later said how
sore he gets after a day of racing the car because the acceleration
just beats him up.
It's incredibly awesome!
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
On Aug 15, 2006, at 8:12 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
Anyway...it was a hot day, so the recently repaved asphalt on
Burnside was warm and sticky. We rounded a corner and just when I
had straightened out the Zombie and was rolling at about 5 mph, I
planted my right foot down hard! To my surprise, instead of the
usual 100 feet of constant wheel spin and copious tire smoke, the
damn thing simple stuck and did a wheel stand, instantly slamming
the poor guy into his seat as both his eyes were big as saucers as
he was now looking through the windshield at the sky instead of the
road. When the front end came back down, it unloaded the rear tires
a bit and they were breaking loose and squealing as we rushed up to
speed. It was about the best power demo I could have hoped for! He
was at the same time, in a state of shock, scared absolutely
sh....tless, and yet, had the biggest EV grin I think I've ever
seen...well, OK, Matt's was pretty big, too! I almost felt bad,
because he was shaking a bit afterwards. He told me he had never,
ever been in a car that accelerated like that...ever! He said it
was more like an amusement park ride :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Perry wrote:
What I don't understand is why the entire group of batts would fail, if a
single unit shorts out.
I can see it happening with a chain reaction much like a nuclear
reaction. A whole bunch of batteries are tightly packed in a enclose
packing crate. Due to some manufacturing fault, a battery in the
middle of the crate breaks down and starts to drastically overheat. At
some point the heat from this battery causes the neighboring batteries
to overheat and break down which then starts to overheat the batteries
next to them and so forth until the entire crate of batteries are
flaming away.
Dennis Foulke
EV Wannabe.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone thing it is entertaining that the font is old fashion and
the walpaper is of a brushless or ac motor stator?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My only response would be that you are like me and consider $100,000.00 a
considerable amount of money. Obviously due to our growing economy that I
hear on the news every night $100,000.00 is a mere penitence to many.
Roderick Wilde
with no deposit on a Tesla Roadster
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: article: Tesla Roadster Sells Out First 100 Cars
I'm impressed! 100 people have paid $100,000 deposits for a Tesla.
I'd never pay a deposit like that. I wouldn't have an hour's peace of
mind while worrying about whether the company would fail to deliver
my car or refund my money. Corbin Motors took prepayments for
Sparrows and left a number of people hanging with no Sparrow and no
refund.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Wujek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 7:01 PM
Subject: article: Tesla Roadster Sells Out First 100 Cars
This could be good news, Tesla may be able to prove that there really is
a market for EVs:
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/tesla-roadster-sells-out-first-100-cars-194460.php
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--
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--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench wrote:
(snip)
I had one guy ask me, why don't you run your electric car on solar cells. I
said, I would need about 2500 sq. ft of the solar cells, which would weigh
over 20,000 lbs not including a support structure that would weigh another
7000 lbs.
So that does not work for me.
Roland
Roland, I seem to recall that you have very conservative driving habits,
never going too deep on your DOD, and have made your batteries last a
very long time. Seems to me that under that kind of usage, you'd be the
perfect candidate for a daily home-charge that came from the sun.
Your estimates of weight and square footage seem like hyperbole to me :-).
For my solar-powered REV, I am planning the purchase of 28 Sanyo HIT-200
panels, which will provide me with a nominal 14a and 350v during the six
to eight hours of sunlight, which I hope to find as I wander the
southwest here in the US. Those panels will cover the roof of my 44-foot
bus, and will take several days to fully charge my pack, but will still
take up only 340 square feet (you wrote 2500?) and weigh in at less than
900 (27000?) pounds.
Now, I understand that solar is not feasible for 99% of mobile
applications, but I would think that every EV owner who also owns their
own home would be at least mildly interested in making another
investment-- the roof of your garage or car-port could give your EV
power for the next 30 years. And an accumulation of retired lead-acid in
the garage-- strings no longer useful for traction, but still having
some utility in a milder application-- could provide backup power for
essentials when the grid fails.
Finally, although it doesn't make sense to think in terms of attaching
solar panels to your average conversion for charging the main traction
pack, I think a lot of people could eliminate their need for a DC-DC if
they thought in terms of a small panel or two, just for the 12v systems,
keeping the aux battery up, keeping the 12v system independent.
A perfect bed-cover for all those S-10's and Rangers, eh? JMHO.
Regards.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> Folks...didn't the EV list warn about doing a on road EV with too little
> power??
> 48 volts is barley enough to stay at 50 mph.
That's a sweeping generalization---or are you limiting yourself to series
wounds?
I doubt that Dave Cloud's 8-ETEK-driven, 96v GEO, which did some 96mph in
the quarter, would have a top speed of less than 50mph if driven at 48v.
Records and rules are still there to be broken.
-Myles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Hi DtAS,
> So I noticed. I would like an AC system, but it looks like I'll have to
> cobble it together myself piece by piece.
> >
> > Probably 1975 dollars, so that shows you how far we've come:
> >
> > A 156V/1000A Zilla *is* $2K, if Otmar can get caught up on his
> > backorders, or $1500 for a 144V/500A Curtis if he can't;
> >
>
> Curtis is not an option, voltage is too low. Zilla looks good.
Just an off
> the cuff estimate, but I guess the voltage I'm shooting for would be
about
> 360v.
Why do you need this high of voltage?
> > Chargers are 2-3x that much if you want ones with some smarts, but
> > about that much (or even less) if you use something that takes human
> > input to keep the pack alive;
> >
> Chargers. I had a boat once, a 40 ft trawler. I recall that I bought
a fully
> programmable BMS for my deep cycle "house" batteries from a marine
store for
> $300. This could handle 70A from my giant alternators and charged
up my 8D
> banks beautifully. Could something like this be adapted for EV use?
For 360V? Not unless your boat had some really high voltage, too!
> > And don't forget $1-2K for a series DC motor. So, $4-5K before
> > shopping for batteries.
> >
> > An AC setup runs more for each item.
> >
> I've been unable to find prices for Siemens AC motors off the web
without
> e-mailing somebody and don't want to do that because I'm not
anywhere near
> purchase time yet.
You mean except for the price list I posted for metricmind?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cloud Electric does Geo Metros. They should be a good
reference for you.
Personally, I don't consider the body large enough to
sit plenty of batteries in safely.
I'd go on the EV album, and see where others have
mounted them.
Basically, a rule of thumb for EVs is that to get
decent performance, 1/3 of your weight should be lead
(batteries). My CivicWithACord has a 45 mi. range,
and stock Civic performance. The glider weighs 2220
stripped, and 3330 as an EV.
peace,
--- Phelps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have a 1990 2 seater convertible Geo Metro that I
> am going to covert to
> Electric. I would like to keep the same kind of
> performance that the
> current 3 cylinder has now.. Which is nothing
> special .. What do you all
> recommend for a motor for it?.. I heard that it is a
> ideal car to convert.
> Thanks
>
> Zeb
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
I asked them if it's available and how much it is. We'll see what they say.
--
Martin K
Jeff Shanab wrote:
Does anyone thing it is entertaining that the font is old fashion and
the walpaper is of a brushless or ac motor stator?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> These Cobalt cells ... are not on the shelf units. They are made by special
> order as need to fit new and existing battery cases. They are normally a
> proto type battery as of now.
This has been the status of Bob Aronson's cobalt-doped lead-acid batteries
as long as I can remember - since at least 1970. About 10 years ago I heard
(or maybe read on his website) that he was negotiating with a Chinese
manufacturer to produce them. Presumably that deal fell through. Or
perhaps there have been some periods of which I'm unaware, in which they
were actually in production.
Meanwhile, I have never seen any solid evidence that the cobalt sulfate
additive has any real benefit. Has anyone else? I'm not saying it's bogus,
just that all I've read is Aronson's claims and anecdotes, no corroborated
test results. Again, I may have missed them.
I also remember well the Voltair. Thirty-five years ago, I was supposed to
be able to buy one "soon" for about $10,000 (a lot of money in 1971, when
$2500 to $3000 would buy you a decent midsize sedan). It was billed as an
EV with "tri-polar lead cobalt batteries" and a fuel cell range extender.
Range was claimed as 300-500 miles. Sound familiar? Very slick looking and
an interesting concept; but AFAIK, it never got past the full size clay
model stage.
Don't mistake me, I have plenty of respect for Bob Aronson's long history in
EVs, and I wish him the best. However, while I certainly may have missed
something, I can't see that he's accomplished very much in terms of getting
significant numbers of EVs on the road.
Meanwhile, there are folks right here on this list who are designing,
building, and selling the components hobbyists and pros alike need to build
practical, affordable, usable, everyday EV conversions. With all due
respect, I'd guess that Otmar, Rich, Victor, Rod, Mike, and Ken have helped
put far more EVs on the road in 10 years than Bob Aronson has in almost 40.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
I think this is great. I can hardly wait 'til they deliver them all and go
on to
the next project...
I don't get that sense. I believe Tesla Roadsters is in this for the long
run.
Ryan G. Plut
"Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it" - G.
Bernard Shaw
(P.S. -- We named our kitten Tesla because she's faster than lightning).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Roland, I seem to recall that you have very conservative driving
habits,
> never going too deep on your DOD, and have made your batteries last a
> very long time. Seems to me that under that kind of usage, you'd be the
> perfect candidate for a daily home-charge that came from the sun.
>
> Your estimates of weight and square footage seem like hyperbole to
me :-).
>
Probably, but Montana and Idaho have low-priced electricity from all
their clean hydro-power.
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--- Begin Message ---
OK, everybody:
I've been to www.evparts.com and seen their FAQ list, but STILL can't find
this stuff. What do these terms stand for:
SOC=State of Charge?
PMSM=Permanent Magnet Series Motor?
IGBT=
DOD=
UQM=
BLDC=
IIRC=
Thanks!
Ryan G. Plut
"Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it" - G.
Bernard Shaw
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: IGBTs and DC controllers
Joe Vitek wrote:
What are the typical IGBTs used in monster DC motor controllers? I am just
curious how
much they cost to build something that will handle 2000 amps for short
bursts.
--
joe
Several hundred for the IGBT and diode modules.
Each time you blow them up ;-)
--
Martin K
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--- Begin Message ---
This is similar to a problem (opportunity) I face, as well. I want to
capture all the regen I can (eventually). I am working from an existing
design which puzzles me a bit.
My original AVS bus came with two Solectria AC-55 motors and 440 UMOC's.
But only one of the motor/controller pairs are regen-enabled, by design.
I suspect there is a good reason why both controllers are not allowed to
source regen current at the same time, but I'm not sure what that reason
is. As a software engineer (in over my head on this), I turn to the EE's
out there--
(I see the 'full-pack with regen available' as the same problem in a
different form).
It seems to me that a lot of time and effort has been expended in
discovering and implementing carefully-crafted charging algorithms,
while regen seems like a haphazard monkey-wrench thrown at the pack in
bits and pieces. Although I love the 'feel' of motor-braking with regen,
I am uncertain if Solectria's (or anyone's) implementation is actually
beneficial to the traction pack, long-term.
Does anybody have refs to studies done, measurements made?
Has anybody tried shunting regen to another current sink (ie a second
pack, or ultracaps or ?)? If someone implemented Dave's idea of
installing an aux traction pack (nickel), how would you route the regen
current to the aux pack? Would you need a custom controller, or is there
an obvious circuit addition that would automagically shunt the regen?
Regards and TIA,
Jim
David Roden wrote:
On 15 Aug 2006 at 10:05, Robb Wallen wrote:
how can I
leave "room" for the descent energy in the batteries with out risking
their longevity.
Use NiCd or NiMH. They can be left in any state of charge indefinitely with
no damage at all.
Of course nickel chemistry is, shall we say, a bit pricey. So, here's an
interesting thought. What if you fitted a lead pack for your traction, then
added a small-capacity NiMH battery from a wrecked Prius? Leave the Prius
pack mostly discharged at night, and use it to absorb the regen down the
initial hill. Then either transfer its energy to the main traction battery,
or otherwise use it to drive the vehicle. Now you have a gasless hybrid.
Of course now my lack of engineering expertise kicks in and I have no clue
about the details of effectively and efficiently using the energy so saved
... maybe others have some thoughts on this.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> OK, everybody:
> I've been to www.evparts.com and seen their FAQ list, but STILL
can't find
> this stuff. What do these terms stand for:
> SOC=State of Charge?
> PMSM=Permanent Magnet Series Motor?
> IGBT=
> DOD=
> UQM=
> BLDC=
> IIRC=
>
I don't remember what kind of transistor IGBT is, or MOSFET for that
matter, but they are both silicon-based components in controllers,
dc-dc converters and smart chargers. DOD is depth of discharge, and
UQM is a company that makes expensive BLDC (brushless DC) motors.
IIRC is If I Recall Correctly
YMMV is Your Mileage May Vary
...
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--- Begin Message ---
PMSM = Permanent Magnet Synchronous Motor
IGBT = Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistor
DOD = Depth of Discharge (100% means a dead battery)
UQM = Unique Mobility's stock trade initials (a company who makes
motors/controllers)
BLDC = Brush-Less Direct Current
IIRC = If I Remember Correctly
AFAIK = As Far As I Know
OTOH = On The Other Hand
BLDC and PMSM are similar except for their winding configurations (and
hence BEMF). BEMF stands for Back Electro-Motive Force, or in other
terms just "generated voltage." Both have magnets, usually on the
rotor.
- Arthur
On Tue, 2006-08-15 at 21:27 -0700, Ryan Plut wrote:
> OK, everybody:
> I've been to www.evparts.com and seen their FAQ list, but STILL can't find
> this stuff. What do these terms stand for:
> SOC=State of Charge?
> PMSM=Permanent Magnet Series Motor?
> IGBT=
> DOD=
> UQM=
> BLDC=
> IIRC=
>
> Thanks!
> Ryan G. Plut
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> PMSM = Permanent Magnet Synchronous Motor
> IGBT = Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistor
> DOD = Depth of Discharge (100% means a dead battery)
> UQM = Unique Mobility's stock trade initials (a company who makes
> motors/controllers)
> BLDC = Brush-Less Direct Current
> IIRC = If I Remember Correctly
> AFAIK = As Far As I Know
> OTOH = On The Other Hand
>
> BLDC and PMSM are similar except for their winding configurations (and
> hence BEMF). BEMF stands for Back Electro-Motive Force, or in other
> terms just "generated voltage." Both have magnets, usually on the
> rotor.
>
> - Arthur
Right - now, don't make us explain WTF
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--- Begin Message ---
I wish, I wish, I wish.....
I'll line you up with your buddies Charger or whatEVer he has built up for
racing. Got a guy right now building a Model A frame
roadster. I've got him thinking of going electric in it but he still keeps
talking about a 429 implant. Maybe the White Zombie
could persuade him.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of John Wayland
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 12:58 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: NEDRA EVent in Alaska (was Re: EV’s show at the Alaska
> Renewable ...)
>
>
> Hello to All,
>
> MIKE WILLMON wrote:
>
> > Hey, a NEDRA EVent in Alaska would be cool!!! Putting a vehicle on
> > the barge out of Seattle or Portland would be the cheapest and easiest
> > way to go. You'd fly in to race (and enjoy the sights for a few days)
> > and I could arrange to get trucks and car haulers volunteered to get
> > you to the track.
> >
> >
>
> Careful what you wish for. I can see the NEDRA race title
> now....'Alaskan Amps...EV drag racing under the midnight sun!'
> Seriously, I'd come back to Anchorage in a heartbeat! I'm sure it
> wouldn't take much arm-twisting to get Father Time and Rudman to show
> up, either.
>
>
> See Ya....John Wayland
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
but in the middle of summer in Anchorage you can race under full sunlight until
just after 11pm and twilight until 2am. We have
electricity too :-)
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mark Farver
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 2:02 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: NEDRA EVent in Alaska (was Re: EV’s show at the Alaska
> Renewable ...)
>
>
> John Wayland wrote:
>
> > Hello to All,
> >
> > MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> >
> >> Hey, a NEDRA EVent in Alaska would be cool!!! Putting a vehicle on
> >> the barge out of Seattle or Portland would be the cheapest and
> >> easiest way to go. You'd fly in to race (and enjoy the sights for a
> >> few days) and I could arrange to get trucks and car haulers
> >> volunteered to get you to the track.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Careful what you wish for. I can see the NEDRA race title
> > now....'Alaskan Amps...EV drag racing under the midnight sun!'
> > Seriously, I'd come back to Anchorage in a heartbeat! I'm sure it
> > wouldn't take much arm-twisting to get Father Time and Rudman to show
> > up, either.
> >
> According to mapquest.com Portland to Anchorage is 2571 miles.
> Portland to Joliet, IL was 2108 miles...
>
> Maybe you could load the cars aboard a train?
>
> Mark Farver
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 2006-08-16 at 05:18 +0000, Death to All Spammers wrote:
> > PMSM = Permanent Magnet Synchronous Motor
> > IGBT = Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistor
> > DOD = Depth of Discharge (100% means a dead battery)
> > UQM = Unique Mobility's stock trade initials (a company who makes
> > motors/controllers)
> > BLDC = Brush-Less Direct Current
> > IIRC = If I Remember Correctly
> > AFAIK = As Far As I Know
> > OTOH = On The Other Hand
> >
> > BLDC and PMSM are similar except for their winding configurations (and
> > hence BEMF). BEMF stands for Back Electro-Motive Force, or in other
> > terms just "generated voltage." Both have magnets, usually on the
> > rotor.
> >
> > - Arthur
>
>
> Right - now, don't make us explain WTF
I almost put that one, LOL.
(Oh and PMSM and PMAC are slightly different, I think. Maybe a Google
search could reveal the answer to those who are curious.)
--- End Message ---
