EV Digest 5761
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: mountain ev
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: IGBTs and DC controllers
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Longer Range EV ideas?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Who says flooded lead is slow?
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Checking out the mid '80s Toyota Van as a conversion candidate
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: mountain ev
by "Ev Performance (Robert Chew)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Two low dollar EV's on e-bay
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) =?Windows-1252?Q?Re:_NEDRA_EVent_in_Alaska_=28was_Re:_EV=92s_show_at_the_?=
=?Windows-1252?Q?Alaska_Renewable_...=29?=
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: article: Tesla Roadster Sells Out First 100 Cars
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Lithium Safety
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Lithium Safety
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV digest 5760
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Drive Shaft Containment
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: You know you're a list member when...
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV digest 5760
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: My ICE Costs
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Solar charging an EV - off grid
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Solar charging an EV - off grid
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) OT Vegioil truck wins class at Woodburn
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Wilderness EV
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Wilderness Electric Vehicle warning
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Question.
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Wilderness Electric Vehicle warning
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
12:00 P.M.
Or use Lithium Ion, which generally will last longer if kept at 1/2 to 3/4
charged than if they spend most of their time at full charge.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 11:41 PM
Subject: Re: mountain ev
On 15 Aug 2006 at 10:05, Robb Wallen wrote:
how can I
leave "room" for the descent energy in the batteries with out risking
their longevity.
Use NiCd or NiMH. They can be left in any state of charge indefinitely
with
no damage at all.
snipped...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One correction:
IGBT = Insanely Gnarly Bitchin Transistor
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/
The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
Now accepting resumes (no, not from engineers). Please see:
http://www.cafeelectric.com/jobs.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lithium should be able to do that comfortably, but
(of course) at a price.
Climate control, power steering and brakes are a
function of the donor vehicle - worst case you need
to replace the heater core with a ceramic element
and you probably need to replace the brake and
steering pumps (usually running on belts from the motor)
with electric pumps or have a dual-shaft motor and
make it run idle to keep the current accessories
(cheaper but slightly less efficient).
With lead acid it is possible, but not easy to
achieve this range.
My truck has slightly over 1/3 weight in lead
(1800 lbs of 4900 lbs total) and it can easily
get 60 miles of range. However, doubling that pack
would bring you over the GVWR and still not entirely
double the range, as the power draw also increases
with weight.
A 'crew cab' truck may be a good candidate for a
4-person seater, as it can take a large load, but
I would only look at Lithium (and Nickel) to achieve
the range you described.
I am very comfortable with the 60 miles range of
my truck - today I even hit 62.5 miles and the pack
is sitting at 314V (12.1V per battery)
(Sam, I said I set a new personal range record at
59 miles, but I needed to pick my son up down the
street, which added again a bit more miles.
The SOC meter still is not in the red and the
charge light is not blinking, so the AGM pack is
going very strong.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Chancey
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 8:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Longer Range EV ideas?
Hi folks,
After reading about folks who drive the Toyota RAV-EVs, I have been
wondering how one could match or at least approach that kind of
performance with a home conversion. Not a converted RAV, just
something to match its functionality. Could an EV conversion be
built that meets the following:
Range: 125 miles useable at 60-70 mph
Seating capacity 4 adults in comfort (probably requires each has
their own door)
Climate controlled, both air conditioning and heating
Power steering
Power brakes
Could it be done for say $25,000 plus the donor chassis? What would
it look like? What would you build? Thoughts?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hard as it may be to believe, the performance figures listed
may be obtainable(or at least close to it). The horsepower
figures are way off, on the other hand.
Dave Cloud's flooded lead acid Geo Metro can pull 14s in the
1/4 mile. A little something to think about.
This performance comes at a price. Flooded lead acid
batteries will not last long when outputting such currents
necessary to obtain that level of performance. That level of
performance also requires a high state of charge to be
obtainable.
The Trojan T-875 has an internal impedance around .005 ohms
if I recall correctly. At 8V nominal and around 9.5V
charged, 800A draw from each string(capable of killing it!)
would bring it down to ~5.5V. That's 176 kW from the
batteries for both strings.
With a properly prepped motor, this would be around 170
horsepower or so. This would give 0-60 in around 10 seconds
for a 5,000 pound electric car, assuming that the motor
makes a generous amount of low-end torque.
With the right gearing, it won't take much power to go 140
mph. This car appears to have rather excellent aerodynamics.
Assuming .22 Cd, 20 square foot frontal area, 5,000 pound
weight, 20% transmission and other losses, and tires with a
010 Cr, it would need ~90-95 kW to hit 140 mph. That's not
too far out of the realm of possibility if the gearing
allows the motor to be at a low enough rpm at that speed to
make the necessary power.
As to the range, "Red Beastie" had about the same weight in
lead on board and did 120 miles highway at ~60 mph. It was
much less aerodynamic and about the same weight.
It's not out of the realm of possibility that this much more
aerodynamic car would do 140 miles range to 100% discharge
at highway speeds, if you keep your foot out of it.
This sounds quite feasible, but there is little(err,
nothing) in the way of time slips to back the acceleration
claim up, nothing for top speed as well.
I highly doubt the car pulls 16s, let alone 14s. Probably
17s and 18s. The claims given for 0-60 and 1/4 mile are very
inconsistent for this car.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Plut wrote:
>Toyota Vans are not very aerodynamic to start with,
>and that cannot be improved.
Sure it can be improved. Aerodynamic modifications are so
overlooked on EV conversions, but could dramatically extend
highway range if properly executed.
What would be keeping one from implementing a grill block,
smooth underbelly, rear wheel skirts, front air dam,
skinnier tires, side skirts, smooth wheel covers, and other
modifications on most conversions?
Just some coroplast, sheet metal, or any other material
properly fastened to the conversion to cut turbulence can
make a big difference in power requirements.
It has been proven for gasoline cars.
www.gassavers.org
Check their forums for the aerodynamic modifications people
have successfully attempted. Gains of over 20% with just
extensive aerodmods alone have been achieved on some cars,
although single aeromods like grill blocks and bellypans
gave 2-8% improvements in fuel economy by themselves.
This can also apply to range on an electric car, and then
some. Lower current draws would increase the capacity
available for lead acid batteries, providing a sort of
'double whammy' effect towards increasing range.
My best guess is that most EV conversions would see a 25-50%
increase in highway range by extensive use of aerodynamic
modifications. But even more modest uses of aeromods, like a
simple bellypan or grill block, might get one an extra 2 or
3 miles range by themselves.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Great idea, i am thinking of a hybrid chemistry idea for increasing range
and helping out with acceleration.
On 16/08/06, David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 15 Aug 2006 at 10:05, Robb Wallen wrote:
> how can I
> leave "room" for the descent energy in the batteries with out risking
> their longevity.
Use NiCd or NiMH. They can be left in any state of charge indefinitely
with
no damage at all.
Of course nickel chemistry is, shall we say, a bit pricey. So, here's an
interesting thought. What if you fitted a lead pack for your traction,
then
added a small-capacity NiMH battery from a wrecked Prius? Leave the Prius
pack mostly discharged at night, and use it to absorb the regen down the
initial hill. Then either transfer its energy to the main traction
battery,
or otherwise use it to drive the vehicle. Now you have a gasless hybrid.
Of course now my lack of engineering expertise kicks in and I have no clue
about the details of effectively and efficiently using the energy so saved
... maybe others have some thoughts on this.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What a WEIRD front bumper that DAF has!
Certainly not original.
Don't say that is a US DOT requirement/modification
like they had the weird bumper mods on BMW.
Anyway - parts are available overseas, at the Dutch
DAF club's warehouse:
http://www.dafclub.nl/
To see the original state of the different models,
go to the "modellen" tab. I used to have the 46.
There is a US DAF owner's club too.
All wear and tear parts have either been re-made or
are still available from New Old Stock.
Chassis parts are either removed from another car
or simply copied from the original by a body shop.
Success bidding!
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Steve Powers
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 4:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Two low dollar EV's on e-bay
BRADLEY GT unfinished kit car..electric vehicle parts Item number:
130015648664
Not sure what is going on with this make shift hybrid.
1961 Other Makes : daf 600 luxe Item number: 110019497969
I got some pictures from the guy selling the daf 600. It does appear to
have all the EV components still there. Where would you ever get oarts for
the chasis?
Both could be bought on the cheap if you are so inclined.
Steve
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call
rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Willmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 1:32 AM
Subject: RE: NEDRA EVent in Alaska (was Re: EV’s show at the Alaska
Renewable ...)
> but in the middle of summer in Anchorage you can race under full sunlight
until just after 11pm and twilight until 2am. We have
> electricity too :-)
>
> Mike,
> Anchorage, Ak.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of Mark Farver
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 2:02 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: NEDRA EVent in Alaska (was Re: EV’s show at the Alaska
> > Renewable ...)
> >
> >
> > John Wayland wrote:
> >
> > > Hello to All,
> > >
> > > MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hey, a NEDRA EVent in Alaska would be cool!!! Putting a vehicle on
> > >> the barge out of Seattle or Portland would be the cheapest and
> > >> easiest way to go. You'd fly in to race (and enjoy the sights for a
> > >> few days) and I could arrange to get trucks and car haulers
> > >> volunteered to get you to the track.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > Careful what you wish for. I can see the NEDRA race title
> > > now....'Alaskan Amps...EV drag racing under the midnight sun!'
> > > Seriously, I'd come back to Anchorage in a heartbeat! I'm sure it
> > > wouldn't take much arm-twisting to get Father Time and Rudman to show
> > > up, either.
> > >
> > According to mapquest.com Portland to Anchorage is 2571 miles.
> > Portland to Joliet, IL was 2108 miles...
> >
> > Maybe you could load the cars aboard a train?
> >
Hi EVerybody;
You wish! The Alaskka to the lower 40 something has been a dream of RR
folks for centuries!Now, it SHOULD be built. The RR's are in place for some
of the trip. I guess it would be Canada's project? But VIA is as underfunded
as Amtrak, nowadaze.With Fuel costs as they are, maybe "Pave" the Alaska
Hiway with RR trax??AND string catenery above those nice shiny trax."The
Midnight Sun" would be a good name for the AK. Overnighter from Seattle?
My two trains worth.
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8/16/06, Ryan Plut <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I don't get that sense. I believe Tesla Roadsters is in this for the long
run.
They certainly appear to be. Their blog on the site has new
interesting posts now and then,
Martin Eberhard expolains their reasoning in going at the high-end
market first here:
http://teslamotors.com/blog1/
"One Brick at a Time"
-kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Temperature on tarmac can be high too, it can be the cause...we don't know
exactly what happened.
I have abused 18650 cells from recent laptop and never seen violent fire
reaction, smoke, little spikes but no fire !
gasoline is explosive too but at less degree level, gasoline "management
system" is human common sense
Lithium NEED BMS and a good one, this said imho storing lithium battery
under the sun ( Tarmac accident situation ?) is like heating gasoline,
playing with match etc. it will at least init itself !
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 4:22 AM
Subject: Re: Lithium Safety
> The fires have occurred, as best I can determine, since 2002... at least
for
> the tarmac fire. I didn't check on when the aircraft went down (killing
all
> passengers). It wasn't a US flight, so data is minimal, and it went down
in
> the ocean, though data indicates something burned through the aircraft
where
> the batteries were stored. In this case, it was hearing aid (sized)
> batteries.
>
> What I don't understand is why the entire group of batts would fail, if a
> single unit shorts out.
>
> Many of these seem to be batts from China. It makes me worry that some
> company, knowing their batts weren't safe, might have fed a Chinese
company
> an unsafe design. McNair isn't known for producing quality batteries...
they
> can't even get LA batts "right"... and their batts are the reason for the
> Disney (children's) DVD player recall... though McNair says it's not the
> fault of their batteries.
>
> BTW, these fires weren't from batts being charged. They were from those
> sitting, awaiting shipment, or (in the case onboard) possibly from those
> being used to power equipment. When I had a set of batts melt down my
> charger, I assumed the fault was in the charger. Now I wonder.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 8:49 PM
> Subject: Lithium Safety
>
>
> > Lithium Ion with the cobolt electrode when ruptured and shorted goes
> > ballistic and produces a hell of a burnning mass.
> >
> > But Switching to manganese eliminates the problem(creates a few more),
> > And Lithium polymer don't generally have the problem at all.
> >
> > I believe older litium ion cells had more of an issue than the newer
> > versions. How many RECENT fires ?
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wonder if somebody knows someone inside the Dell factory...
I'm getting the idea that those thousands of recalled li-ion battery
packs could disappear out of their trash bin in a mutually convenient
occurance.
Danny
Philippe Borges wrote:
Temperature on tarmac can be high too, it can be the cause...we don't know
exactly what happened.
I have abused 18650 cells from recent laptop and never seen violent fire
reaction, smoke, little spikes but no fire !
gasoline is explosive too but at less degree level, gasoline "management
system" is human common sense
Lithium NEED BMS and a good one, this said imho storing lithium battery
under the sun ( Tarmac accident situation ?) is like heating gasoline,
playing with match etc. it will at least init itself !
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 4:22 AM
Subject: Re: Lithium Safety
The fires have occurred, as best I can determine, since 2002... at least
for
the tarmac fire. I didn't check on when the aircraft went down (killing
all
passengers). It wasn't a US flight, so data is minimal, and it went down
in
the ocean, though data indicates something burned through the aircraft
where
the batteries were stored. In this case, it was hearing aid (sized)
batteries.
What I don't understand is why the entire group of batts would fail, if a
single unit shorts out.
Many of these seem to be batts from China. It makes me worry that some
company, knowing their batts weren't safe, might have fed a Chinese
company
an unsafe design. McNair isn't known for producing quality batteries...
they
can't even get LA batts "right"... and their batts are the reason for the
Disney (children's) DVD player recall... though McNair says it's not the
fault of their batteries.
BTW, these fires weren't from batts being charged. They were from those
sitting, awaiting shipment, or (in the case onboard) possibly from those
being used to power equipment. When I had a set of batts melt down my
charger, I assumed the fault was in the charger. Now I wonder.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 8:49 PM
Subject: Lithium Safety
Lithium Ion with the cobolt electrode when ruptured and shorted goes
ballistic and produces a hell of a burnning mass.
But Switching to manganese eliminates the problem(creates a few more),
And Lithium polymer don't generally have the problem at all.
I believe older litium ion cells had more of an issue than the newer
versions. How many RECENT fires ?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike wrote:
"After reading about folks who drive the Toyota RAV-EVs, I have been
wondering how one could match or at least approach that kind of
performance with a home conversion. Not a converted RAV, just
something to match its functionality. Could an EV conversion be
built that meets the following:
Range: 125 miles useable at 60-70 mph
Seating capacity 4 adults in comfort (probably requires each has
their own door)
Climate controlled, both air conditioning and heating
Power steering
Power brakes
Could it be done for say $25,000 plus the donor chassis? What would
it look like? What would you build? Thoughts?"
I'd think you'd basically have to start with a 4-door small truck (those are
getting more common nowadays), and fill the bed (which is already short due to
the extended cab) with maybe 30 8-volt floodies and put a cover over the bed.
There's probably room for a PFC-20 in there as well. Throw a 9" or 11" motor
and a Z1K-HV up front along with the usual vacuum system and keep the AC
compressor, driven with a separate motor, and you'd be good. Range might be
shy of 125 miles, but could approach 100 if driven conservatively. Of course
if you need more range, there *might* be room for more batteries. The sticking
point would, of course, be finding a good donor candidate. John Wayland has
looked at several types of newer trucks in the past, I believe, and posted what
he thought about their conversion potential. Perhaps he could repost that
information?
Anyway, this would cost about about $10K for the EV components (assuming $75
per battery, $1600 for a PFC-20, $3000 for a Z1K-HV with all the necessary
accessories, $2000 for a motor, and allowing the remaining $1150 for all the
other stuff that you wind up needing but don't think about to begin with). As
you can see, I allowed some "wiggle room" in the prices, and there is still
$15k left for a donor. That could get you a pretty good donor to start with,
not like what I got stuck with. If I ever get done with THIS one, maybe I'll
start something like that.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I saw something in passing regarding drive shaft containment I think on race
cars (maybe from nedra). I was curious if there was a standard recommended way
of containing a driveshaft should the U joint pop off. I noticed when I got my
Cushman it was loose, popped off and banged the rear end up in the air. Should
a metal circle be mounted around each end?
Best Regards,
Mark
---------------------------------
Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:15 PM 8/08/06 -0700, you wrote:
Hey all
I had some time on my hands as I drove back from Portland after lunch
with Wayland and the usual motor run. I added some to those I had
thought up earlier. These are in no particular order and I hope you
enjoy, sorry if I missed anyone.
Cya
Jim Husted
You know you're a list member when...
G'day all
I realized that I had another one:
Before I became a list member I asociated Portland, Oregon with Leatherman
[brand] "multitool's", now the asociation is somewhat more EV focussed!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hard for sure:
for 25000$ you would only have the PM Brushless motor and 288V95Ah panasonic
NIMH battery pack...
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Brandt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: EV digest 5760
> Mike wrote:
>
> "After reading about folks who drive the Toyota RAV-EVs, I have been
> wondering how one could match or at least approach that kind of
> performance with a home conversion. Not a converted RAV, just
> something to match its functionality. Could an EV conversion be
> built that meets the following:
> Range: 125 miles useable at 60-70 mph
> Seating capacity 4 adults in comfort (probably requires each has
> their own door)
> Climate controlled, both air conditioning and heating
> Power steering
> Power brakes
> Could it be done for say $25,000 plus the donor chassis? What would
> it look like? What would you build? Thoughts?"
>
> I'd think you'd basically have to start with a 4-door small truck (those
are getting more common nowadays), and fill the bed (which is already short
due to the extended cab) with maybe 30 8-volt floodies and put a cover over
the bed. There's probably room for a PFC-20 in there as well. Throw a 9"
or 11" motor and a Z1K-HV up front along with the usual vacuum system and
keep the AC compressor, driven with a separate motor, and you'd be good.
Range might be shy of 125 miles, but could approach 100 if driven
conservatively. Of course if you need more range, there *might* be room for
more batteries. The sticking point would, of course, be finding a good
donor candidate. John Wayland has looked at several types of newer trucks
in the past, I believe, and posted what he thought about their conversion
potential. Perhaps he could repost that information?
>
> Anyway, this would cost about about $10K for the EV components (assuming
$75 per battery, $1600 for a PFC-20, $3000 for a Z1K-HV with all the
necessary accessories, $2000 for a motor, and allowing the remaining $1150
for all the other stuff that you wind up needing but don't think about to
begin with). As you can see, I allowed some "wiggle room" in the prices,
and there is still $15k left for a donor. That could get you a pretty good
donor to start with, not like what I got stuck with. If I ever get done
with THIS one, maybe I'll start something like that.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Ryan,
The super capacitors from ESMA can work alone with out batteries, for short
range from 5 to 10 miles for a 5 to 10 ton vehicle.
You can stack up these capacitor modules to any voltage you want, normally
higher than the rated motor voltage.
They use a regulated type of controller, something like a Zilla to provide
the corrected voltage to the motor.
You can charge these super capacitors in 5 minutes or less if you have the
300 to 400 amp charger design for them.
These units are normally design for public or industrial applications that
have the electrical systems to support this type EV's.
It would be interesting to build a lite weight EV using this type of power
source.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
> Roland,
>
> >
> > A company call ESMA in Russia makes supercapacitors that are used to
> > drive
> > service trucks and buses. They are as big or bigger than batteries.
> > They would cost about $40,000.00 for my car. See www.esma-cap.com
> >
>
> >
> > These Cobalt cells are very heavy. They weigh about 50 lbs per cell and
> > would cost about $6000.00 for 42 cell block which weighs about 2000 lbs
> > each.
> >
> > To drive my car today, this would cost me (factory cost) about
> > $15,000.00
> > for a 180 volt pack. They are not on the shelf units. They are made
> > by
> > special order as need to fit new and existing battery cases. They are
> > normally a proto type battery as of now. You can get them from The
> > Appollo
> > Energy Systems. www.apolloenergysystems.com
> >>
> >>
>
>
> Thanks for the website tips on caps and batteries.
> Those ESMA capacitor modules have a max voltage of only 52v for the
> traction
> type!
> What if your pack is *much* higher? like 360V?
> Must batt pack volts equal cap pack voltage?
>
> Ryan
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8/15/06, jmygann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Anyone have any experience doing this ??
On a 48 volt system ... panels and vehicle ... any reccomendation on
a charge controller ?
These are nice but ???
http://www.affordable-solar.com/outback.mx60.mppt.charge.controller.htm
I've used the MX60 with a 3kW array (charging 48V), and would highly
reccommend it.
What's your intention exactly?
Regards
Evan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: Solar charging an EV - off grid
> > Roland, I seem to recall that you have very conservative driving
> habits,
> > never going too deep on your DOD, and have made your batteries last a
> > very long time. Seems to me that under that kind of usage, you'd be the
> > perfect candidate for a daily home-charge that came from the sun.
> >
> > Your estimates of weight and square footage seem like hyperbole to
> me :-).
> >
>
> Probably, but Montana and Idaho have low-priced electricity from all
> their clean hydro-power.
>
> If a person wants to build a home in the remote areas, the power company
> will not run there lines 100 of miles for free to your place.
My sister lives 7 miles away from the nearest power grid and the power
company back in the 60's ran the power this distance for free, as well as
the telephone company. They will not do this any longer to day under the
un-regulated system.
We use to pay 3 cents a KW back then, today I pay over 10 cents per KW.
I can drive my EV at 3 cents per mile, so if gas prices are at 3.00 a
gallon, that is still equal to 100 miles a gallon.
A Café Motel type of place, that is located 8000 feet up in the mountains,
have a gas-electric generators that charge a bank of batteries that then
runs a inverter system. When the batteries get low, than the generators
turn on to charge the batteries during the nite time.
It would take over 1/2 mil to install solar for this place.
During the day, when the Café is open, then the generators provide must of
the power.
There is several ranch houses in the remote area, that have over 1/4 million
in the solar system which also becomes there roof in there 2 million dollar
houses.
Each panel section is 36 inches by 24 inches which is 36 volts at 1 amp
each, So it takes a lot of them to get them to 50 amps.
Roland
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.vegistroke.com/
I can now officially say that Vegistroke is
a Winner!! Getting back to my hotrod
roots, I entered in the Thundertruck races
in Woodburn Oregon on Aug 5 and
wound my way through 84 trucks to win
the 4x4 class running a best of 15.81 in
my 8,000lb behemoth. And yes, this was
on vegetable oil!!
I was thinking some of you might have diesel trucks/cars/gensets as
backup/support vehicles.(this one only supports Ford Powerstroke at this
time) Waste vegioil might be an alternative fuel you can use. Jason the
owner of the truck moved his family and company to Oregon for simular
reasons to Otmars. Lawrence Rhodes......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So you are saying the Wilderness kit with an Altrax meets your needs on
level ground? Could you mention the car the system is in and the voltage?
What the car can and can't do? Thanks Lawrence Rhodes...
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 4:30 PM
Subject: Wilderness EV
> Hi ,
> After talking with the folks at Alltrax and reprogramming the controller
to max and popping the clutch, the start off acceleration is better but not
even close to the original gas engine. The car will never be able to do any
type hill.
> I am glad that I did get all the parts and the refund check and it is just
a short commute to work with no hills.
> Larry Roberts
> Kennewick, WA
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm VERY new to the EV world but I have at least been commuting by EV for
several months now. I know Madman commands a lot of respect here and I'm not
trying to be disrespectful but...
I think the amount of power the vehicle has to have is subject to the
individual's personal desires. If a guy only drives 5 miles and travels a
frontage road that has a speed limit of 30 mph, and that's ALL he wants the
EV for, then 48 volts meets his requirements.
Now if that same in-duh-vidual insists on taking that same vehicle out on
highways with 55 & 65 mph speed limits and creating a traffic hazard out of
himself, then that's a different story.
I took care to match my vechicle to my needs, my budget, my knowledge level,
and my local roads.
I'm using an old '81 ex-Postal Comuta Van at 72 volts. I'm lucky in that all
the roads that I drive all for my basic living have speed limits of 40 mph
or less. The C-van does 55-ish, though I've had it up to 65 with a little
help from gravity. I get 35-40 miles out of it AND I get to charge up at the
Metro parking garage all day long. I know people that safely and
satisfactorily commute in CitiCars.
I'm actually glad this fellow posted his experience because I was looking at
a Wilderness EV kit or perhaps the converted Beetle that they're advertising
on the EV Trading post. (though I'd already decided to up the voltage to at
least 72v as soon as it arrived because I already know that 48v won't move a
metal, ICE converted car very far or fast). The sort of haphazard
construction of even their website alerted me to their uh..."grassroots"
manner of operation but it was nice to hear from someone who's actually done
business with them.
Still...based on what I've seen from this fellow, and my email
communications with Wilderness EV, my opinion is not that they are willfully
fraudulent or out to rip people off, it's just that they're a small, family
run business that's more centered on the technical aspect of the enterprise
and not necessarily the "business" or "customer service" aspect. At worst, I
think they're just a little disorganized.
I still think I might risk buying a kit or converted vehicle from them in
the future. You can bet that if I get the run-around and a bunch of wrong or
missing parts, or if they keep my money and don't send me my stuff that I'll
post about it here though.
In the meantime, I'll continue my EV education on my Curtis-controlled
Comuta Van.
3,000 electric-miles and counting,
Rich A.
Maryland
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Wilderness Electric Vehicle warning
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:45:10 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Folks...didn't the EV list warn about doing a on road EV with too little
power??
48 volts is barley enough to stay at 50 mph.
I know my first was a 48 volt starter gen with .....2500 amps of controller.
Even at 72 volts you will be underwhelmed...
At 96 you can get the job done... with few excuses.
I would not do a on road EV with less than 120 volts... Sorry Shari... just
makin' my points...
This is the kind of thing we need to educate folks on... there are practical
reasons why most of us don't do these kind of things..
It's not that I am a EV street racer... or amp head.. just the practical
side says reasonable levels of power are needed.. and 48 volts needs 4
digits of amps to move 2000 lbs of Street EV.
Don't get rid of your T-105s.. just get more of them.
Madman
We need to guide the newbies a little better folks...
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Zeb,
I'm doing a Geo Metro convertible conversion, and I've installed an
8-inch ADC motor. If you go this route, you'll need to get the motor
without the tail shaft, or lower your motor and transmission mounts by an
inch. Otherwise, the 8-incher won't quite fit.
Randy at www.canev.com offers Geo kits for both the 8-inch and 6.7-inch
ADC motors.
Bill Dennis
> I have a 1990 2 seater convertible Geo Metro that I
> am going to covert to
> Electric. I would like to keep the same kind of
> performance that the
> current 3 cylinder has now.. Which is nothing
> special .. What do you all
> recommend for a motor for it?.. I heard that it is a
> ideal car to convert.
> Thanks
>
> Zeb
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd think the 12 6v batteries wouldn't be much of a penalty. You will
increase your battery weight by 1/3 or about 250 pounds. The weight of one
large person. A 72v system is the minimum you need to got 45mph. Gearing
in the Festiva must be too high to use lower voltages. Let us know about
your progress. Putting out of business is a bit severe. Seems they get
things done. They are very slow. You are the second person to complain
about Wilderness. Could be you got a bad motor. Could be the gearing is
different in the VW. However they do recommend Festivas. Lawrence
Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 6:35 AM
Subject: Wilderness Electric Vehicle warning
> Hi EV Enthusiast,
>
> This message is concerning the fraudulent and poor business practices of
Wilderness Electric Vehicle, Wilderness E.V., Wilderness EV, Owner Brain
Barrett, 380 S 370 E, Lehi, Utah 840443, PO Box 504, Lehi, Utah 84043
801-628-6509, [EMAIL PROTECTED], www.e-volks.com and the number two kit
for Ford Festiva.
>
> I sent a check for $2,089.00 to Wilderness EV after several chats on the
phone. One month later I received the motor, plate and coupler. No motor
mount so I built my own. Several more weeks go buy and a couple of failed
follow up phone calls, to my surprise I received the rest of the parts
except the 0-5K pot. The battery terminals were wrong for the Trojan T-105
I was going to use and the 0-100 volt gauge was just cheap. I finally was
able to get a hold of Wilderness EV and asked for a return number for the
battery terminals and gauge and asked about the pot. Brian gave me a return
number for the parts and said he would give me credit for the motor mount
and send me a check. He also said the pot was on back order and would be
sent out within a few days. Two weeks later no parts, no refund check, and
no returned phone calls. I sent him two letters which said,
>
> "I have returned the following parts for refund on July 26, 2006.
> Voltmeter $48.00
> Battery cable terminals $32
> I asked for a credit for motor mount $20
> I have not received as of this date and have ordered for EVPart 0-5 K Pot
$86 on my own via EVParts.
> Please remit to me a total of $186 within in one week of this date.
> Possible natural consequences of failure to comply will be:
> 1. Contact local business license office
> 2. Negative complaint with local Utah Better Business Bureau
> 3. Letter to Utah Attorney General for mail fraud
> This is a problem for you since I sent a check to
you though the mail.
> 4. Your name, business will be placed on all EV web blogs and
sites as a warning
> 5. Small claims court
> I am taking this action because of your business has poor bed side
manners. You don't return phone calls or follow up with emails as promised
by your web site."
>
> Within three days I receive a phone call from Brian and he said he had
just sent out the pot and the refund check and even gave me a tracking
number. I received both within a few days. I returned the pot to EVParts.
(These are good folks.)
>
> I completed my 93 Ford Festiva EV within a few days and took it for a 5
mile spin.
> The car goes 35 miles an hour on flat level which is great except with one
slight problem. The take off acceleration from stop is extremely slow to
the point of being very dangerous from being rear ended and if starting from
a slight 1 degree incline it will not move at all. The 48 volt
configuration just doesn't work as advertised on his web site which states
"the acceleration is as good or better than the original VW engine at 48vdc"
Wilderness EV needs to be put out of business for selling a system that
doesn't work. I was shafted. Anyway, to my solve the problem I'm going to
have to convert what I have to a 72 volt system which requires me changing
out the eight like new Trojan T-105 for six 12 volt Trojans. I just can't
add more batteries because of weight limitations. I am also going to have
to change out the controller. Everything else should work. I will need to
spend $700 for new batteries and $700 for a 72 volt controller. I will have
to sell the used T-105 a!
> nd 48 volt controller.
>
> Larry Roberts
> Kennewick, Washington
>
>
--- End Message ---
