EV Digest 5764
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EUROPOSITRON,Is this battery for real ?
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: NEDRA EVent in Alaska (was Re: EVs show at the Alaska Renewable ...)
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: As anybody heard of EUROPOSITRON
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Solar charging an EV - off grid
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: NEDRA EVent in Alaska (was Re: EVs show at the Alaska Renewable ...)
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Very nice EV site
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Lithium Safety
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Car and Driver to be at NEDRA Nationals
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV Range estimation...
by "Joe Plumer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: backyard blower builds
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Freedom EV update
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) How much voltage can a 72 volt controller handle?
by "David J. Hrivnak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) test
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV Range estimation...
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Another Passing of an EV Pioneer
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) was: Plug in Hybrid retro fits for Prius, Escape wanted for NY state -
now: NYS EVs
by DM3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Hi-Torque / EV Calendar for 2007
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Hi-Torque / EV Calendar for 2007
by Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Hi-Torque / EV Calendar for 2007
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Hi-Torque / EV Calendar for 2007
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: My ICE Costs
by "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: My ICE Costs
by "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: As anybody heard of EUROPOSITRON
by "ROBERT GOUDREAU" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: My ICE Costs
by "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: IGBTs and DC controllers
by "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: EUROPOSITRON,Is this battery for real ?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Charles Whalen, WKTEC, and filet mignon
by Joe Vitek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Netgain Warp 8" availability?
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Optima YTs wanted in Seattle
by Jim Dempsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: My ICE Costs
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 8/16/06, Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm not defending the company, but as for the grammar, they're a Finnish
firm, so English probably isn't their first language. It doesn't
necessarily indicate a poorly educated person.
I can guarantee you that no Finn would write such an illiterate
message on a public forum!
In my opinion it's pretty clear that the author is American or at very
least has learned his skills in English from US spammers ;)
Anyway we have looked at these aluminium batteries (sorry, we've seen
claims about them) several times over the years so there is no point
us getting worked up about their "potential" again..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And Portland to Hagerstown, MD is only 2740, so you could also make it to
the Power of DC next summer. The east coast needs to see a 100 mph EV like
White Zombie. Come a couple of days early or stay a couple of days after
and I'll take you out for some famous Maryland steamed crabs.
Dave
From: Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: NEDRA EVent in Alaska (was Re: EVs show at the Alaska
Renewable ...)
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:01:47 -0500
John Wayland wrote:
Hello to All,
MIKE WILLMON wrote:
Hey, a NEDRA EVent in Alaska would be cool!!! Putting a vehicle on the
barge out of Seattle or Portland would be the cheapest and easiest way to
go. You'd fly in to race (and enjoy the sights for a few days) and I
could arrange to get trucks and car haulers volunteered to get you to the
track.
Careful what you wish for. I can see the NEDRA race title now....'Alaskan
Amps...EV drag racing under the midnight sun!'
Seriously, I'd come back to Anchorage in a heartbeat! I'm sure it
wouldn't take much arm-twisting to get Father Time and Rudman to show up,
either.
According to mapquest.com Portland to Anchorage is 2571 miles. Portland
to Joliet, IL was 2108 miles...
Maybe you could load the cars aboard a train?
Mark Farver
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--- Begin Message ---
http://www.europositron.com/en/info.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "ROBERT GOUDREAU" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 11:22 AM
Subject: As anybody heard of EUROPOSITRON
> Europositron-based batteries are capable of being manufactured with
minimal
> changes in existing manufacturing processes. With a theoretical energy
> density of 2,100 Wh/litre, cycle time of more than 3,000, an operating
> temperature range of minus 40 to 70 degrees centigrade, life expectancy of
> 10 to 30 years and the use of abundantly available aluminium, this
> technology promises to transform the global battery market.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8/16/06, jmygann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I only have a 200 watt array but close to 10 hours of sunlight and a
Watsun tracker
The MPPT controllers are supposed to get better performance
It's true, they allow you to operate the panels at their peak power
point (as the name suggests) for a useful improvement in efficiency in
most cases.
However with only a 200W array, I would suggest a better use of the
money would be a few more panels first!
I was told that at 3 amps I may not need a controller but just a
diode to prevent reverse flow at night. As long as I do not run the
batteries out of water ??
It depends on the panels. But yes, you might need a diode.
3A into 220AH golf cart batteries is a trickle charge, I don't think
you'll notice any more water loss than simply leaving them alone :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all
But in Alaska you can fish at 2 or 3 AM after the event! To top it all off
you'll find that getting within 20 feet of a brown bear is as big a rush as a
ride in WZ. I've done them both and the pucker factor hovers right around the
9 mark, hehe.
Just my two casts.
Cya
Jim Husted
---------------------------------
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--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "ROBERT GOUDREAU" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I just subscribe to it. http://electriccars.com/
>
The fact that you not only paid for this site but also think it is
"very nice" should give listees a hint at your knowledge of EVs,
especially when it comes to critical thinking in regards to advanced
battery development.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's true about the tarmac maybe being hot. It doesn't explain the
flashlight or the ones that caught fire in the plane's hold... nor the ones
made by McNair. Unfortunately, they aren't forthcoming on the number of
overheated batts, or their mfgr/type... and are only mentioning those on
aircraft.
Apparently these aren't being charged or discharged. BTW, you are correct
about gasoline. Self-service fueling caused several people to catch on fire
each year. (That's why they've put grounded touch pads on the pumps... which
may help.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 1:31 AM
Subject: Re: Lithium Safety
> Temperature on tarmac can be high too, it can be the cause...we don't know
> exactly what happened.
>
> I have abused 18650 cells from recent laptop and never seen violent fire
> reaction, smoke, little spikes but no fire !
>
> gasoline is explosive too but at less degree level, gasoline "management
> system" is human common sense
>
> Lithium NEED BMS and a good one, this said imho storing lithium battery
> under the sun ( Tarmac accident situation ?) is like heating gasoline,
> playing with match etc. it will at least init itself !
>
> cordialement,
> Philippe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Well John Wayland has spun his magic once again and talked Car and Driver
into coming to the NEDRA Nationals. They will be filming both days as well
as coming to the breakfast so it sounds like it could be a very in depth
article about the electric drag racing movement. The writer is none other
than contributing Editor Ted West who just did the article in this months
Car and Driver on the four million dollar, one of a kind, Ferrari.
Hey EVeryone
What awesome news. John worked hard getting this, I know, and I also know he
pushed hard for them to cover the event and not just his car! This is yet
another example of how EV racing is promoting that today are driving electrics!
Now this is very unlike John being the selfish glory hog that he is, to share
like this. Here is an opportunity to show off your pride and joy whether it'd
be a racer or a daily as there will be a huge crowd of folks to educate! In
fact there may be more surprises, opps. One I can announce is that I'm
building a small 6" motor for the event, Roy's deciding how to best to offer it
but like chip did might offer it as a raffle. There will be a pair of motors
being shown as well that are shipping to a list member after going to the RPM
show 8^)
To top it all off, believe it or not my biggest EV event was last year at
Woodburn with 6 racers and the same for the fans! The turnout for Joliet was
awesome and I made a lot of new friends but alas no racing. Now's the time,
any that might have been on the fence concerning coming needs to jump on down
and make the effort to attend this event. Here's the chance to be part of a
car and driver article!
Here's hoping to see you.
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
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Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm trying to spec out my wishlist and what that calculation tells me if I
used the Optima Yellow
tops with a C20 rating of 55 and an ADC 9" motor at 144v my "range" would
be:
(144*.57*55)/200 = 22.572 miles.
If that is correct then I wouldn't even make it to work. Much less back.
I'd need batteries
with at least 165 Ah C20 rating to make it round trip.
For what it's worth.
On Wed, August 16, 2006 12:27 pm, Joe Plumer wrote:
> I was reading an article about how to estimate range for an EV last
night
> (and
> now I can't find the article).
>
> It had a calculation something like Range = Voltage * .57 * Ah/200
This statement appears to be:
"Range with 57% depth of discharge (DOD) at a running rate of 200Ah/mile"
A better stated version of this equation would be something like this:
N = Number of cells
A = Ah [EMAIL PROTECTED], per cell
V = Nominal voltage per cell
E = Total consumption, in Ah/mile (~200)
D = Desired DOD (~.50 = 50%)
Range in miles = (N * A * V * D) / E
But, you really should be including the peukert effect (search the
archives & wikipedia) in this sort of calculation, as well as a better
esmitation of efficency.
In the mean time, I've been using something similar as a very crude range
estimation. Bigger cars/trucks will run up to and beyond 250Ah/mile, and
smaller more efficient cars have been quoted at ~150Ah/mile. 57% DOD is
(I think) probably about what most people do, but "range" is a funny word,
because people don't usually run their batteries all the way down to 0V.
:)
There are many factors at play in the "total consumption" number,
including aerodynamics, transmission efficency, motor efficency,
controller efficency, tire & bearing rolling resistence, etc., that may
introduce fairly large variations in that number depending on your vehicle
and setup, so be forewarned.
Steve
>
>
> Does that look right to you all? I know that there are a few things
that
> aren't accounted for in the equation, but as a general estimate, is
this
> accurate?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll see if I can get some flow/pressure data for the
blowers and pass that information on to the list.
Some are high flow, high RPM blowers, others are
higher pressure at lower flow. I suspect a high
flow/low pressure blower would be good for a setup
with minimal back pressure. These are also good for
blowing out brush dust if set up properly. A 120Vac
universal blower would work well for pack voltages up
to 180Vdc.
At lower pack voltages you'll still get reasonable air
flow (this type of motor will still run down to very
low DC voltages, you'll just get less performance.)
A 240Vac universal motor will work up to 320Vdc packs.
I'll see what I can round up and let you know.
Rod
--- Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Is your company interested in reclaiming some of
> that storage space for a reasonable price?
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > In fact, I think we have several thousand just
> sitting
> > around in the storage room :-)
> > Rod
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
Just an update for those who care.
The Freedom all composite chassis has been completed
and now mating it to the body with Lee Hart's excellent
help.
It was great having Lee around for 4 days, I learned a
lot and hope he did too. He got right into laying up
fiberglass and doing anything needed, a better helper you
couldn't ask for.
During the hot part of the days we talked about all
aspects of the design, the Sunrise and other EV's in our
futures to build. Also went looking for parts and
solutions. Lee found some Devcon pour your own urethane to
make the correct size bushings solves that suspension
problem if I don't find already made ones.
Next is epoxy bonding the the body/chassis into one
piece, then it's on to the doors, probably the hardest thing
in it. But I think I have a good plan for them.
Then move on to the windshield, dash, inside
coverings, brakes, ect. Then the electrical starts with the
finish finally in sight!!! ;^D Sounds so easy doesn't it!!
At the same time will do the suspensions, ect. I got a
funky chop saw for free and set it up to cut the steel for
the suspension components.
We should have AC'ed space in the next week or 2 which
will allow a much longer work day and night, out of the Fla
bugs, rain, humidity, speeding things up.
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
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--- Begin Message ---
This may be a silly question but can one safely put 80V or 96V on a
controller rated at 72V max? Will the controller simply limit the output
voltage to 72V or do you run the possibility of blowing the controller? The
reason I ask is I understand that under heavy load the voltage can sag,
often significantly, so the 72V pack could drop to under 60V when pulling
400 amps out. If the voltage will sag can you put 96V on a 72V controller
so when it sags you still have all 72V going through the controller?
I found a used Curtis (1209B-6402) 48V-72V controller that could meet my
need but I will likely need all 72V. Thank you
David J. Hrivnak
www.hrivnak.com
Personal Account WWJD?
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--- Begin Message ---
sorry, I have experienced some connectivity issues.
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--- Begin Message ---
On Aug 16, 2006, at 2:13 PM, Steve Lacy wrote:
On Wed, August 16, 2006 12:27 pm, Joe Plumer wrote:
I was reading an article about how to estimate range for an EV last
night
(and
now I can't find the article).
It had a calculation something like Range = Voltage * .57 * Ah/200
This statement appears to be:
"Range with 57% depth of discharge (DOD) at a running rate of
200Ah/mile"
No, 57% is commonly given as the available capacity at the one hour
rate for a flooded lead acid battery where you know (or use) the
advertised capacity at the 20 hour rate.
The formula seems to use the basis of 200 watt hours per mile and take
no account of the vehicle weight. Using the 1 hour rate also seems to
leave out the effects large capacity battery packs (ranges that take
more longer to use.)
I'll toss out my formula for lead acid based EVs. R = W * (0.05 + A)
R = range in miles
W = weight of the battery pack
A = an adjustment factor, 0 if 33% of the completed vehicle weight is
battery weight, -0.001 for each 1% less in battery weight or +0.001 for
each 1% greater in battery weight
It has built in ways to adjust for the problems I outlined above, but
still doesn't take the efficiency of the vehicle converted into
account. Still, it places my EV Buggy at 20 miles and the Red Beastie
:-( at 153 miles. These seem pretty close to correct for a couple of EV
examples ranging widely in weight (1420 lb. and 5330 lb.) Especially
efficient EVs seem to do slightly better.
Paul G.
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--- Begin Message ---
While that may sound as if it would make fun out of a sad occasion ..
> "Rest.. Byron Verbond.... I know you are building EVs for your friends
> up there.....We're still down here.. trying to keep the Faith."
.. but maybe they even have a/c's for EVs where ever that is he is now (if
he is).
For somebody who is not bound by the limitations of religion, death is
nothing but a natural process we all will have to experience sooner or
later. It still is sad, at least for those who are missing him.
mm.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Regarding EVs in NYS, is there anyone on this list that has one or more
EVs licensed in the state of NY?
I would just like to know if/how NYS caters to homebuilt EVs.
How elaborate are the two year inspections?
Are there any discounts for plates or renewals?
How are conversions like Solectria or JET handled?
Any info is appreciated.
Thanks,
Jimmy
> > From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> New York State Aims to Convert its Hybrid Fleet to Plug-Ins
> A new $10 million effort in New York State is geared toward
> converting the state's hybrid fleetconsisting mostly of
> Toyota Priuses and Ford Hybrid Escapesinto plug-in
> hybrids.
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--- Begin Message ---
My Buggy hasn't been in an EV calendar yet - I would be willing to be
featured! You can see the buggy, with its proud old Prestolite MTC-4001
motor, at <evalbum.com/125.html> or ask Plasma Boy about it (and he has
some good pictures of it I would like to get :-)
Anyway, I think calendars are a good idea. Some plug for you, some plug
for EVs (another plug for you :-) and lots of cool EVs.
Paul "neon" G.
I'll take one for my garage (and try to get one into the house ;-)
On Aug 14, 2006, at 9:51 AM, Jim Husted wrote:
I've been chewing on an idea here for a couple months about doing a
Hi-Torque Calendar. I have plenty of EV's out there running my motors
to do this but thought a community wide calendar a better choice.
I have a few ideas as to how I'd like to do it, and that means input
by you folks. First, I'd need a list of those willing to be pictured
on it. Second I thought a single type voting from EVerybody would be
really fun with the highest votees getting the honor (not by me but by
you) of being selected.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 09:51:02 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:
>Hey all
>
> I've been chewing on an idea here for a couple months about doing a
> Hi-Torque Calendar. I have plenty of EV's out there running my motors to do
> this but thought a community wide calendar a better choice.
>
Where do I buy one?
R. Matt Milliron
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
1981 Jet Electrica.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Paul
I'll add you to the list, thanks. BTW you had me at Prestolite, lmao.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
"Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
My Buggy hasn't been in an EV calendar yet - I would be willing to be
featured! You can see the buggy, with its proud old Prestolite MTC-4001
motor, at or ask Plasma Boy about it (and he has
some good pictures of it I would like to get :-)
Anyway, I think calendars are a good idea. Some plug for you, some plug
for EVs (another plug for you :-) and lots of cool EVs.
Paul "neon" G.
I'll take one for my garage (and try to get one into the house ;-)
On Aug 14, 2006, at 9:51 AM, Jim Husted wrote:
> I've been chewing on an idea here for a couple months about doing a
> Hi-Torque Calendar. I have plenty of EV's out there running my motors
> to do this but thought a community wide calendar a better choice.
>
> I have a few ideas as to how I'd like to do it, and that means input
> by you folks. First, I'd need a list of those willing to be pictured
> on it. Second I thought a single type voting from EVerybody would be
> really fun with the highest votees getting the honor (not by me but by
> you) of being selected.
---------------------------------
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Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 09:51:02
-0700 (PDT), you wrote:
>Hey all
> I've been chewing on an idea here for a couple months about doing a Hi-Torque
> Calendar. I >have plenty of EV's out there running my motors to do this but
> thought a community wide >calendar a better choice.
Where do I buy one?
Hey Matt
Thanks but I got to make them first, hehehe. I'm still waiting to see how
many peeps are willing to participate, so far not a huge crowd yet. I'll make
an album at my site for choices, probably after the Nationals. I think this is
going to be a fun project and I look forward to putting this together.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
Hi DtAS,
So I noticed. I would like an AC system, but it looks like I'll have to
cobble it together myself piece by piece.
>
Just an off
the cuff estimate, but I guess the voltage I'm shooting for would be
about
360v.
Why do you need this high of voltage?
As I understand it, V*A=W, so for a given wattage motor higher V equals
lower amps.
Lower amps means all the wiring and connectors can be smaller.
Lower amps means less resistance means less losses to waste heat.
smaller *usually* means less expensive when it comes to wires and
connectors.
True?
> Chargers are 2-3x that much if you want ones with some smarts, but
> about that much (or even less) if you use something that takes human
> input to keep the pack alive;
>
Chargers. I had a boat once, a 40 ft trawler. I recall that I bought
a fully
programmable BMS for my deep cycle "house" batteries from a marine
store for
$300. This could handle 70A from my giant alternators and charged
up my 8D
banks beautifully. Could something like this be adapted for EV use?
For 360V? Not unless your boat had some really high voltage, too!
Oh, you're right there. I wasn't thinking!
>
I've been unable to find prices for Siemens AC motors off the web
without
e-mailing somebody and don't want to do that because I'm not
anywhere near
purchase time yet.
You mean except for the price list I posted for metricmind?
Metricminds prices for AC Siemens all say "inquire" for the price. They DO
list MES, and others though. They list a BRUSA for $15K! So are Siemens
prices similar to MES?
Ryan G. Plut
"Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it" - G.
Bernard Shaw
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--- Begin Message ---
My wife works for a company that the Owner is all gung-ho (no pun intended)
to do all his business in China. He's full of ideas, and very time someone
mentions something to him, he's like: "Ooh! ooh! I can have that done for
you cheaper in China!" Scary. One day my wife will be out of a job.
Ryan G. Plut
"Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it" - G.
Bernard Shaw
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
These Cobalt cells ... are not on the shelf units. They are made by
special
order as need to fit new and existing battery cases. They are normally a
proto type battery as of now.
This has been the status of Bob Aronson's cobalt-doped lead-acid batteries
as long as I can remember - since at least 1970. About 10 years ago I
heard
(or maybe read on his website) that he was negotiating with a Chinese
manufacturer to produce them. Presumably that deal fell through. Or
perhaps there have been some periods of which I'm unaware, in which they
were actually in production.
Meanwhile, I have never seen any solid evidence that the cobalt sulfate
additive has any real benefit. Has anyone else? I'm not saying it's
bogus,
just that all I've read is Aronson's claims and anecdotes, no corroborated
test results. Again, I may have missed them.
I also remember well the Voltair. Thirty-five years ago, I was supposed
to
be able to buy one "soon" for about $10,000 (a lot of money in 1971, when
$2500 to $3000 would buy you a decent midsize sedan). It was billed as an
EV with "tri-polar lead cobalt batteries" and a fuel cell range extender.
Range was claimed as 300-500 miles. Sound familiar? Very slick looking
and
an interesting concept; but AFAIK, it never got past the full size clay
model stage.
Don't mistake me, I have plenty of respect for Bob Aronson's long history
in
EVs, and I wish him the best. However, while I certainly may have missed
something, I can't see that he's accomplished very much in terms of
getting
significant numbers of EVs on the road.
Meanwhile, there are folks right here on this list who are designing,
building, and selling the components hobbyists and pros alike need to
build
practical, affordable, usable, everyday EV conversions. With all due
respect, I'd guess that Otmar, Rich, Victor, Rod, Mike, and Ken have
helped
put far more EVs on the road in 10 years than Bob Aronson has in almost
40.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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([EMAIL PROTECTED]) will soon disappear.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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Sorry for the double post.i tought the post did not show up the first
time.Sorry,getting use to the forum.
On 8/16/06, David Roden (Akron OH USA) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I could be making a rash judgement here, but the person who originally
posted this item doesn't seem to be asking about the battery so much as
promoting it. How about it Mr Goudreau - what's your relationship, if
any,
with "Europositron"?
PS - Bill, thanks for pointing out my error. Sorry - I meant to write
aluminum
air, not zinc-air. The ALCAN / UQM project was indeed an attempt to
commercialize AL-Air batteries for EVs. IIRC, specific energy was quite
good, but they ran into problems with specific power.
We're all certainly interested in advanced batteries, but I'm always
skeptical
when a battery researcher or manufacturer trumpets his work as "technology
[that] promises to transform the global battery market." That's ad-speak,
not
the language of researchers and scientists.
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--- Begin Message ---
Roland,
Interesting. So if it's "5 to 10 miles for a 5 to 10 ton vehicle", what
happens if the vehicle is only 2 tons? Longer ranges?
I can't afford them anyway; I'm just blue-skying.
Ryan G. Plut
"Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it" - G.
Bernard Shaw
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 5:53 AM
Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
Hello Ryan,
The super capacitors from ESMA can work alone with out batteries, for
short range from 5 to 10 miles for a 5 to 10 ton vehicle.
You can stack up these capacitor modules to any voltage you want, normally
higher than the rated motor voltage.
They use a regulated type of controller, something like a Zilla to provide
the corrected voltage to the motor.
You can charge these super capacitors in 5 minutes or less if you have the
300 to 400 amp charger design for them.
These units are normally design for public or industrial applications that
have the electrical systems to support this type EV's.
It would be interesting to build a lite weight EV using this type of power
source.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
Roland,
>
> A company call ESMA in Russia makes supercapacitors that are used to
> drive
> service trucks and buses. They are as big or bigger than batteries.
> They would cost about $40,000.00 for my car. See www.esma-cap.com
>
>
> These Cobalt cells are very heavy. They weigh about 50 lbs per cell
> and
> would cost about $6000.00 for 42 cell block which weighs about 2000 lbs
> each.
>
> To drive my car today, this would cost me (factory cost) about
> $15,000.00
> for a 180 volt pack. They are not on the shelf units. They are made
> by
> special order as need to fit new and existing battery cases. They are
> normally a proto type battery as of now. You can get them from The
> Appollo
> Energy Systems. www.apolloenergysystems.com
>>
>>
Thanks for the website tips on caps and batteries.
Those ESMA capacitor modules have a max voltage of only 52v for the
traction
type!
What if your pack is *much* higher? like 360V?
Must batt pack volts equal cap pack voltage?
Ryan
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--- Begin Message ---
THANKS to all who replied! My learning curve is flattening!
Ryan G. Plut
"Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it" - G.
Bernard Shaw
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: IGBTs and DC controllers
OK, everybody:
I've been to www.evparts.com and seen their FAQ list, but STILL can't
find this stuff. What do these terms stand for:
SOC=State of Charge?
PMSM=Permanent Magnet Series Motor?
IGBT=Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistor (IGBT)
DOD= Only thing I can think of is Department of Defense
UQM= UQM Technologiess?
http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/uqm_deere_hybrid_tractor.html
BLDC= Brushless DC (BLDC) Motor
IIRC= If I Recal/Remember Correctly Internet Acronyms Dictionary
Thanks!
Ryan G. Plut
"Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it" -
G. Bernard Shaw
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: IGBTs and DC controllers
Joe Vitek wrote:
What are the typical IGBTs used in monster DC motor controllers? I am
just curious how
much they cost to build something that will handle 2000 amps for short
bursts.
--
joe
Several hundred for the IGBT and diode modules.
Each time you blow them up ;-)
--
Martin K
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Here's some stuff I found from them:
http://www.batteriesdigest.com/batteries_aluminum.htm
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--- Begin Message ---
I just wanted to post my experience with the premiere of "Who Killed The
Electric
Car" in Orlando, Florida this past Friday and Saturday.
Although I was not present at the premiere or even anywhere near Orlando at the
time, I was involved in, at least, with the arrival of Charles Whalen's RAV-4
EV.
Ya see, Charles was there to promote the premiere and to educate anyone who had
questions.
Before he left for the EVent, Charles posted to the list that he needed to
charge
on the way to Orlando from south Florida. I happen to live in Cocoa. It is the
perfect distance to arrive (to charge) from Fort Pierce where a friend of his
lives where he charged the night before. I offered, he accepted. Yayy!
Damnation! Charles is one of the most well spoken, charming, well educated, well
mannered, unassuming, respectful, engaging and interesting individuals I have
ever had the pleasure with whom to spend time. I had a great time.
Charles arrived at my house on Friday at around 8am to get in a 4-5hour charge
before heading to Orlando to get ready for the premiere. I was scheduled to work
that day, but after talking for an hour or so, I could tell that I didn't want
to
go to work. I called and let my cohorts know that I would be unavailable for the
day. Charles needed to charge on the way back too, so the weekend was very
interesting.
I need to digress for a moment.
This trip of Charles' happened to coincide with my planned trip to go to
Tennessee to retrieve a 1954 Ford F100 pickup that I won on eBay. I was supposed
to leave on Friday afternoon so I could be back by Saturday night. This worked
out great with Charles' trip and would give me time to get back and settled for
Charles' return trip after the showing of WKTEC.
Well, it went like this:
1. Charles arrival 8am Friday
2. Call in work at 9am (sorry, got more important things going on, boss)
3. Talk about wonderfully interesting EV stuff until he leaves around 1pm
4. At 1:15pm I went to Cocoa Beach to visit with my sister who called at 11am to
say she is in town.
5. Get back around 3:30pm and load up my truck and trailer with my Isuzu Trooper
to deliver to my brother in Columbia, SC.
6. Leave at 5pm to go to Columbia in a Dodge Ram pulling the Isuzu (on a
flatbed)
7. Arrive in Columbia at midnight and hang with my bro until 6am.
8. Leave at 6:40am with empty trailer to go to Athens Tennessee to get the Ford.
9. Arrive in Athens at 12 noon and do the ebay deal for the '54 Ford.
10. Leave Athens at 12:30pm Sat. with Ford in tow headed back to Cocoa, FL.
11. Hit major rain all the way thru Jacksonville (damned weather)
12. 1413 miles after leaving, get back to Cocoa at 10:10pm Sat. night and crash
(on the bed)
13. Get up Sunday, look at '54 Ford, sigh, go buy filet mignon, beer and
vegetables at Publix grocery.
14. 10:45am, Charles arrives for another charge.
15. Woohoo!
16. Much more discussion of EV's, politics (good), race relations, American
history, the recent lack of hobby high current DC motor controllers ;) and good
food.
17. 2pm started meat, veggies and potatoes.
18. 2:30pm, food done and we scarfed while talking some more.
19. Around 3:30-4pm, Charles had to get going and we said our heartfelt
goodbyes.
20. I watched the RAV-4 silently pull away from the property.
21. Sigh.
Well, all in all, I had a wild and wonderful weekend.
What did y'all do?
--
joe vitek
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Bob,
Cool. I'm still saving my pennies (my wife insists we fritter our money
away on housing, food, and health care), so when I'm ready, I'll give
you a buzz. I'm almost there -- a few more months.
-- Eric
Bob Rice wrote:
Hi Eric;
Yeah! We can still get them at Warfield/ Netgain. How many would ya
like?They run about 1500 buxFOB Frankfort Ill. I can check on the immediate
avalibility if you like. Remember Motors are selling like hotcakes in Jan.
nowadaze! A wonderful amount of interest in EV stuff.Oatmar is overwhelmed,
too.Motors are on a production run basis, and immediate availability can be
iffy.
Ok I just got off the fone with the Netgain guyz.: The Impulse 8's we
have in stock. Streight 8's are on order, no promise as to a del. date.These
are nice as to being a tad shorter than a stock one, for space challanged
applications.
As they say a t Wally*Mart' How can I help"
Seeya?
Bob, If yur in CA or Or I can bring it west for ya, save shipping!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Poulsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 5:24 PM
Subject: Netgain Warp 8" availability?
Seems the only place selling the Netgain Warp 8" these days is the
much-avoided "Electric Vehicles USA." I know EV Source carries Netgain,
but only 9" (and a 9/8 hybrid) and up. I've put in inquiry to them via
their website.
Anyone have a source?
--Eric
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Hey, all
Jim here again, with a Lectra needing batteries. If anyone has 4 Yellow Tops
in good shape for sale, or is planning a bulk purchase for a project I could
add to for delivery in Greater Puget Sound/Portland, OR/Vancouver, BC area,
lemme know.
I'm finally getting high enough on the seniority list to transfer to a base
close enough to home, and couldn't be more excited.
Later!
Jim Dempsey
EMB Lectra #66
---------------------------------
Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
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On Aug 16, 2006, at 10:09 PM, Ryan Plut wrote:
Metricminds prices for AC Siemens all say "inquire" for the price.
They DO list MES, and others though. They list a BRUSA for $15K! So
are Siemens prices similar to MES?
Why not send an email to Victor and ask him?
I think I remember you said you didn't want to bother him, but the way
I look at it, if he didn't want to be bothered, he'd just post the
prices on his website.
When I started on my conversion, I not only asked him for his price
list, I also took him up on his offer to run some numbers for me. I
think he's since created an Excel spreadsheet you can download and run
the numbers yourself, but back then he did it for you. I found it a
big help. (Thanks, Victor!)
I ended up not buying anything from his company, but I don't feel bad.
He offered the service to me, and took the time to send me a custom
quote, with the understanding that I might choose not to buy anything
from him. And the way he's got it set up, you're certainly not going
to buy anything from him if you don't know what it costs, so you'll
HAVE to bother him to get the price list.
I'm pretty sure Victor will not hate you for asking for his price list.
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org/
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