EV Digest 5763
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Question.
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Not a NEV (was Re: Wilderness Electric Vehicle warning)
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Lower speed EV's
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Plug in Hybrid retro fits for Prius, Escape wanted for NY state fleet.
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Plug in Hybrid retro fits for Prius, Escape wanted for NY state fleet.
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: article: Tesla Roadster Sells Out First 100 Cars
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Cool Brushes
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) As anybody heard of EUROPOSITRON
by "ROBERT GOUDREAU" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EUROPOSITRON,Is this battery for real ?
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Drive Shaft Containment
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Cool Brushes
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Very nice EV site
by "ROBERT GOUDREAU" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) EV Range estimation...
by "Joe Plumer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: EUROPOSITRON,Is this battery for real ?
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: As anybody heard of EUROPOSITRON
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV Range estimation...
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Wilderness EV
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: IGBTs and DC controllers
by "Steve Lacy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV Range estimation...
by "Steve Lacy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Very nice EV site
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: EV Range estimation...
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Wilderness Electric Vehicle warning
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Car and Driver to be at NEDRA Nationals
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: backyard blower builds
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Very nice EV site
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: As anybody heard of EUROPOSITRON
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Very nice EV site
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Another Passing of an EV Pioneer
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: EUROPOSITRON,Is this battery for real ?
by "Dmitri Hurik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:53 PM 8/15/2006, you wrote:
I have a 1990 2 seater convertible Geo Metro that I am going to covert to
Electric. I would like to keep the same kind of performance that the
current 3 cylinder has now.. Which is nothing special .. What do you all
recommend for a motor for it?.. I heard that it is a ideal car to convert.
Thanks
Zeb
See http://www.electroauto.com/gallery/metro.shtml 16 x 6V, 70 mph,
65 miles range.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had considered buying a NEV, even becoming a dealer for them,
until I drove around at 25mph for a day. Horrible, and I'm not one that
drives fast (off the racetrack :) A car that went 40-45mph tops would be
acceptable for grocery-getting/soccer-hauling in my opinion.
To go on the freeway, it would need my EVlocomotive idea to move it at
65mph. :)
Jack
David Roden wrote:
On 16 Aug 2006 at 8:25, Roderick Wilde wrote:
I
personally am looking at developing a low voltage kit for small cars like
Honda Civics.
I think this is an excellent idea. The only problem you might have is that
it's gotten very difficult to find lightweight late-model cars. Not many
come in under 2500 lb any more. Late 90s Civic hatchbacks are in the 2300
lb range, I believe. You might have to go with something like a Kia Rio /
Avella type.
possibility of a 48 volt AC drive city car type kit.
This sounds interesting too! Maybe 45 mph or so top speed? If it had
reasonable pep getting there, it might well have a market.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
There are lower speed vehicles available , but if they are LSV's , that
means traveling on only certain speed roads.
The c-car and conversions are not limited but I would not want to go on
the freeway with a 45 mph EV.
So I chose to do a 45 mph Geo Metro conversion which is street legal
over a LSV.
options ...
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/zennEV/message/34
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Xebra_EV/
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/C-Car/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
I though Madman and others may want to get into
this.
New York State Aims to Convert its Hybrid Fleet to Plug-Ins
A new $10 million effort in New York State is geared toward
converting the state's hybrid fleetconsisting mostly of
Toyota Priuses and Ford Hybrid Escapesinto plug-in
hybrids. The New York State Energy Research and Development
Agency (NYSERDA) released a solicitation on Monday that
calls for multiple awards of up to $100,000 for the
development of plug-in hybrid vehicle prototypes, which will
then be subject to three months of testing. Builders of
successful prototype vehicles may then apply for a second
round of funding to convert the state's fleet of hybrids
into plug-in hybrids. NYSERDA estimates that the state owns
between 500 and 600 hybrid cars and light trucks, and the
winning bidders will need to present a viable plan to
manufacture allor a significant portion ofthe plug-in
conversion systems in New York State, or otherwise generate
significant economic activity in the state. Proposals are
due on September 18th. See NYSERDA's Program Opportunity
Notice 1088
Jerry Dycus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Madman has been notified.
Mike
--- jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
> I though Madman and others may want to get into
> this.
>
> New York State Aims to Convert its Hybrid Fleet to Plug-Ins
> A new $10 million effort in New York State is geared toward
> converting the state's hybrid fleetconsisting mostly of
> Toyota Priuses and Ford Hybrid Escapesinto plug-in
> hybrids. The New York State Energy Research and Development
> Agency (NYSERDA) released a solicitation on Monday that
> calls for multiple awards of up to $100,000 for the
> development of plug-in hybrid vehicle prototypes, which will
> then be subject to three months of testing. Builders of
> successful prototype vehicles may then apply for a second
> round of funding to convert the state's fleet of hybrids
> into plug-in hybrids. NYSERDA estimates that the state owns
> between 500 and 600 hybrid cars and light trucks, and the
> winning bidders will need to present a viable plan to
> manufacture allor a significant portion ofthe plug-in
> conversion systems in New York State, or otherwise generate
> significant economic activity in the state. Proposals are
> due on September 18th. See NYSERDA's Program Opportunity
> Notice 1088
>
> Jerry Dycus
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave,
Part of the $100,000 cost is $10,000 set aside to cover shipping
costs to send the car back to Tesla for repairs if you ever encounter
that mammoth speed bump.
Chip Gribben
On Aug 16, 2006, at 1:10 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: "David C. Navas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: August 16, 2006 10:28:02 AM EDT
To: "Tom Shay" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: article: Tesla Roadster Sells Out First 100 Cars
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm impressed! 100 people have paid $100,000 deposits for a Tesla.
I'd never pay a deposit like that. I wouldn't have an hour's
peace of
mind while worrying about whether the company would fail to deliver
my car or refund my money. Corbin Motors took prepayments for
Sparrows and left a number of people hanging with no Sparrow and no
refund.
Presumably the escrow account is sufficient for 100 people, anyway.
I would worry about other things -- how often do I need to replace
those really expensive tires, for example. Or, where do I go to
repair that all-carbon-fiber body? Or, how stiff is that suspension,
really? Or, what happens when I scrape the entire bottom off the car
going over my first speed bump?
On the otherhand, it's likely to be a hell of a collector's item.
-Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
My direct drive commutator is running hot, black with some blue on my 2k lb
Cushman with a 7" motor. Are there cooler running brushes with less IR drop?
I seam to recall using Morganite copper impregnated brushes on my cheese wedge
but tended to wear the comm. Also I heard advancing the timing 7 degrees would
meke this heating on accel worse, is that true? I accel at 500A & sustain
100-200A at 72V.
Thanks,
Mark
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Europositron-based batteries are capable of being manufactured with minimal
changes in existing manufacturing processes. With a theoretical energy
density of 2,100 Wh/litre, cycle time of more than 3,000, an operating
temperature range of minus 40 to 70 degrees centigrade, life expectancy of
10 to 30 years and the use of abundantly available aluminium, this
technology promises to transform the global battery market.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On the basis of this apparent "news release," I would be skeptical.
First, the writing in the email quoted - it's rife with spelling, syntax, and
grammar errors - is that of a careless or poorly educated person. That by
itself should be enough to raise a red flag visible for miles. Add the
extensive
use of SHOUTING!!!, and the little hairs on the back of your neck should be
bristling.
Second, the email release makes claims that are, on the face of it,
implausible.
1. "Your range per charge will then become MORE THAN 800-1000 MILES!!!
Given your daily comute of just 15 miles, this means you will only have to
plug your electric car in ONCE EVERY TWO MONTHS!"
Suppose these batteries can actually store enough energy to drive a car 800
miles. Let's see how much this is. A typical smallish conversion EV uses
250 Wh/mi or 0.25 kWh/mi. 800 mi * .25 kWh/mi = 200 kWh. To load 200
kWh into an EV in a 12 hour span (being generous) would require 16.7 kW,
or about 70 amps at 240 volts. This would require a circuit protected at 90
amps - not impossible, but most newer residential systems (typically 200
amp panels) would find it difficult to support while also satisfying the home's
other loads. Older homes with 100 amp panels probably could not charge
such an EV at all. A 400 amp panel upgrade could solve the problem, but
would be costly.
If you wanted to charge such an EV in 8 hours the challenge is even more
formidable. Now you need 25 kW, or 104 amps at 240 volts; the circuit
would have to be protected at 130 amps.
2. "Your gas bill that was $100 a month in 2006 has been replaced by a
whopping $5 per month electricity charge."
Is this cost estimate plausible? Let's assume they are right and my driving is
15 miles per day. That's 450 mi/month. At 0.25 kWh per mile, I'm using
112.5 kWh per month, and at a fairly typical $0.15 / kWh that would be
$16.88 per month. Unless they are claiming that their batteries somehow
triple the energy efficiency of an EV (just about impossible since current
batteries are IIRC 85-90% efficient) that's pretty hard to swallow.
= = = = =
The presented email has the outward appearance of an amateurish attempt
to interest investors in a very questionable product. OTOH, if you view the
cited website, you find a rather more polished presentation. However, it's
still
long on hyperbole and short on technical specifics.
I would note that this is hardly the first attempt to apply zinc-air batteries
to
EVs. I remember one nearly 20 years ago, a cooperative venture between
ALCAN and Unique Mobility, which eventually came to naught.
Even allowing for the possibility that the company have a valid technology,
the structure of the website should give one pause - particularly in the
prominence of the request for investment!
I believe this battery has been discussed within the last few months on this
list, and there was a fair bit of skepticism about the "inventor" and his
expertise in basic electrical principles. That doesn't necessarily mean it's
bogus, but it does mean "proceed with caution."
What you do is your choice, but I'm not going to bet my retirement savings
on this one. ;-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is rare a stock street vehicle drops a driveshaft, but with the
extra torque of an electric motor a driveshaft loop would be good
insurance.
Land speed rules are that the loop is in the first 1/4 of the drive
shaft. You don't want a loop near the rear. The driveshaft needs to
droop a ways in back, so the loop would have to be really low and
would scrape. Also, if the rear falls off the car won't do a pole
vault, like it might if the front falls off.
In general, if you are replacing a driveshaft, it is worth looking at
getting a racing aluminum one. I got one for 1/2 the price of a stock
replacement. They are often several pounds lighter, and since they
are lighter they vibrate less. Since it is geared weight it helps
your acceleration even more than just lightening the car by that much
would.
--- "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I saw something in passing regarding drive shaft containment I
> think on race cars (maybe from nedra). I was curious if there was
> a standard recommended way of containing a driveshaft should the U
> joint pop off. I noticed when I got my Cushman it was loose,
> popped off and banged the rear end up in the air. Should a metal
> circle be mounted around each end?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Mark
If you like, send me some pics of the brushes and comm. and I'll take a look
for you. As to brush grades a harder brush will wear the comm faster so isn't
a real perk. As for advancing the brushes a lot depends on how the motor was
wound. What was the OEM rating of the motor? IMO running the motor at 72
volts probably would benifit with at least a small advancement, but again I
have no idea what motor you are using. Also are you running a blower or fan
cooled??
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
"Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi,
My direct drive commutator is running hot, black with some blue on my 2k lb
Cushman with a 7" motor. Are there cooler running brushes with less IR drop? I
seam to recall using Morganite copper impregnated brushes on my cheese wedge
but tended to wear the comm. Also I heard advancing the timing 7 degrees would
meke this heating on accel worse, is that true? I accel at 500A & sustain
100-200A at 72V.
Thanks,
Mark
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
---------------------------------
Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just subscribe to it. http://electriccars.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was reading an article about how to estimate range for an EV last night
(and
now I can't find the article).
It had a calculation something like Range = Voltage * .57 * Ah/200
Does that look right to you all? I know that there are a few things that
aren't accounted
for in the equation, but as a general estimate, is this accurate?
Thanks.
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
I believe that Europositron's batteries are Aluminum-air, not Zinc-air.
They're claiming around 1300Wh/kg. If...if....if their claims are true,
then a 250Wh/mile car could travel 1000 miles with less than 500 pounds of
batteries.
I'm not defending the company, but as for the grammar, they're a Finnish
firm, so English probably isn't their first language. It doesn't
necessarily indicate a poorly educated person.
I agree with you about the other amateurish qualities of their site.
I don't think you'd actually plug in your car once every two months, as
they shout. For daily commuting, you'd just top it off. If you had an 800
mile trip for one day, you could gradually add a little more charge each
subsequent night to eventually bring the pack back to full, while still
using it for your daily commute.
Seems that multiple continuous days at 400 or 500 miles per day would be
quite rechargeable (125,000Wh for 500 miles), at 60A x 240V.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Roden (Akron OH USA)
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 11:36 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EUROPOSITRON,Is this battery for real ?
On the basis of this apparent "news release," I would be skeptical.
First, the writing in the email quoted - it's rife with spelling, syntax,
and
grammar errors - is that of a careless or poorly educated person. That by
itself should be enough to raise a red flag visible for miles. Add the
extensive
use of SHOUTING!!!, and the little hairs on the back of your neck should be
bristling.
Second, the email release makes claims that are, on the face of it,
implausible.
1. "Your range per charge will then become MORE THAN 800-1000 MILES!!!
Given your daily comute of just 15 miles, this means you will only have to
plug your electric car in ONCE EVERY TWO MONTHS!"
Suppose these batteries can actually store enough energy to drive a car 800
miles. Let's see how much this is. A typical smallish conversion EV uses
250 Wh/mi or 0.25 kWh/mi. 800 mi * .25 kWh/mi = 200 kWh. To load 200
kWh into an EV in a 12 hour span (being generous) would require 16.7 kW,
or about 70 amps at 240 volts. This would require a circuit protected at 90
amps - not impossible, but most newer residential systems (typically 200
amp panels) would find it difficult to support while also satisfying the
home's
other loads. Older homes with 100 amp panels probably could not charge
such an EV at all. A 400 amp panel upgrade could solve the problem, but
would be costly.
If you wanted to charge such an EV in 8 hours the challenge is even more
formidable. Now you need 25 kW, or 104 amps at 240 volts; the circuit
would have to be protected at 130 amps.
2. "Your gas bill that was $100 a month in 2006 has been replaced by a
whopping $5 per month electricity charge."
Is this cost estimate plausible? Let's assume they are right and my driving
is
15 miles per day. That's 450 mi/month. At 0.25 kWh per mile, I'm using
112.5 kWh per month, and at a fairly typical $0.15 / kWh that would be
$16.88 per month. Unless they are claiming that their batteries somehow
triple the energy efficiency of an EV (just about impossible since current
batteries are IIRC 85-90% efficient) that's pretty hard to swallow.
= = = = =
The presented email has the outward appearance of an amateurish attempt
to interest investors in a very questionable product. OTOH, if you view the
cited website, you find a rather more polished presentation. However, it's
still
long on hyperbole and short on technical specifics.
I would note that this is hardly the first attempt to apply zinc-air
batteries to
EVs. I remember one nearly 20 years ago, a cooperative venture between
ALCAN and Unique Mobility, which eventually came to naught.
Even allowing for the possibility that the company have a valid technology,
the structure of the website should give one pause - particularly in the
prominence of the request for investment!
I believe this battery has been discussed within the last few months on this
list, and there was a fair bit of skepticism about the "inventor" and his
expertise in basic electrical principles. That doesn't necessarily mean
it's
bogus, but it does mean "proceed with caution."
What you do is your choice, but I'm not going to bet my retirement savings
on this one. ;-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe that's the same one discussed before.
I don't think anyone came up with any information on even the
possibility of an "aluminum battery".
Danny
ROBERT GOUDREAU wrote:
Europositron-based batteries are capable of being manufactured with
minimal
changes in existing manufacturing processes. With a theoretical energy
density of 2,100 Wh/litre, cycle time of more than 3,000, an operating
temperature range of minus 40 to 70 degrees centigrade, life
expectancy of
10 to 30 years and the use of abundantly available aluminium, this
technology promises to transform the global battery market.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Very interesting. Have never seen that calculation,
but mine comes up with 32 mi., and I've done 38, and
another individual with same configuration has done
44, FWIW.
peace,
--- Joe Plumer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was reading an article about how to estimate range
> for an EV last night
> (and
> now I can't find the article).
>
> It had a calculation something like Range = Voltage
> * .57 * Ah/200
>
> Does that look right to you all? I know that there
> are a few things that
> aren't accounted
> for in the equation, but as a general estimate, is
> this accurate?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger!
> Download today - it's FREE!
>
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You mentioned 6 T105's equal 48v. Are you sure you wern't using 8
batteries? If you were using 6 batteries it would explain everything.
Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 6:33 AM
Subject: Re: Wilderness EV
> So you are saying the Wilderness kit with an Altrax meets your needs on
> level ground? Could you mention the car the system is in and the voltage?
> What the car can and can't do? Thanks Lawrence Rhodes...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 4:30 PM
> Subject: Wilderness EV
>
>
> > Hi ,
> > After talking with the folks at Alltrax and reprogramming the controller
> to max and popping the clutch, the start off acceleration is better but
not
> even close to the original gas engine. The car will never be able to do
any
> type hill.
> > I am glad that I did get all the parts and the refund check and it is
just
> a short commute to work with no hills.
> > Larry Roberts
> > Kennewick, WA
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, August 14, 2006 12:50 pm, Joe Vitek wrote:
> What are the typical IGBTs used in monster DC motor controllers? I am
> just curious how much they cost to build something that will handle 2000
> amps for short bursts.
To actually answer your question...
Searching http://digikey.com for "Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistors"
shows a variety of devices rated up to 600A made by International
Rectifier. ( http://www.irf.com/indexsw.html ). They don't have prices
listed on the 600A models, but the 400A/250V versions are ~$295/ea at
quantity 1, $177/ea at quantity 100. (digikey part number
"GA400TD25S-ND") I presume there is some "price/amp" curve that these
things follow, and that lesser amperage parts may be cheaper per amp for
building a 1000A or 2000A system. I'm no electrical engineer, so I don't
know anythinga bout how these things are put into a complete controller
system...
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, August 16, 2006 12:27 pm, Joe Plumer wrote:
> I was reading an article about how to estimate range for an EV last night
> (and
> now I can't find the article).
>
> It had a calculation something like Range = Voltage * .57 * Ah/200
This statement appears to be:
"Range with 57% depth of discharge (DOD) at a running rate of 200Ah/mile"
A better stated version of this equation would be something like this:
N = Number of cells
A = Ah [EMAIL PROTECTED], per cell
V = Nominal voltage per cell
E = Total consumption, in Ah/mile (~200)
D = Desired DOD (~.50 = 50%)
Range in miles = (N * A * V * D) / E
But, you really should be including the peukert effect (search the
archives & wikipedia) in this sort of calculation, as well as a better
esmitation of efficency.
In the mean time, I've been using something similar as a very crude range
estimation. Bigger cars/trucks will run up to and beyond 250Ah/mile, and
smaller more efficient cars have been quoted at ~150Ah/mile. 57% DOD is
(I think) probably about what most people do, but "range" is a funny word,
because people don't usually run their batteries all the way down to 0V.
:)
There are many factors at play in the "total consumption" number,
including aerodynamics, transmission efficency, motor efficency,
controller efficency, tire & bearing rolling resistence, etc., that may
introduce fairly large variations in that number depending on your vehicle
and setup, so be forewarned.
Steve
>
>
> Does that look right to you all? I know that there are a few things that
> aren't accounted for in the equation, but as a general estimate, is this
> accurate?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The site does looks like it was put together by the same people who put together
the weight-loss/enhancement pill/porn sites. Not to mention the information is
misleading.
On Wed Aug 16 9:28 , 'ROBERT GOUDREAU' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent:
>I just subscribe to it. http://electriccars.com/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmmm, I don't know about that. I never drove my EV that far all at one time
to find out. Mine is estimate to go 78 miles down to 10% S.O.C.
The calculation you show gives me 133 miles!
Uve's EV calculations also gives me 78 miles.
Another ratio calculation that I got from a EV EE was a ratio of weight to
watt hour to speed to overall ratio for 60 minutes. For Example:
It is known by experimentation that it takes:
600 watts hours to move 100 lbs to 50 mph for 1 hour using a 4.0:1 drive
ratio.
If you double the weight, than you must double the watts or you can double
the drive ratio or reduce the speed.
For me, at 7000 lbs its 7000/100 = 70, 600 watts x 70 = 42,000 watts at
4.0:1 ratio.
My ratio is 5.57:1, therefore (42000 x 4.0)/5.57 = 30161 watts to go 50
miles.
Using all of 42000 watts would be (42000 x 50)/30161 = 69.6 miles.
The longest distance I drove was 39.5 miles which the batteries show a 50%
SOC. Therefore at 10% it should be about ((39.5 x 40%)/50%)+39.5 = 71.1
miles.
Now if I double the 69.6 miles it is closer to the 133 miles in you're the
formula you presented.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: EV Range estimation...
> Very interesting. Have never seen that calculation,
> but mine comes up with 32 mi., and I've done 38, and
> another individual with same configuration has done
> 44, FWIW.
> peace,
>
> --- Joe Plumer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I was reading an article about how to estimate range
> > for an EV last night
> > (and
> > now I can't find the article).
> >
> > It had a calculation something like Range = Voltage
> > * .57 * Ah/200
> >
> > Does that look right to you all? I know that there
> > are a few things that
> > aren't accounted
> > for in the equation, but as a general estimate, is
> > this accurate?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> >
> _________________________________________________________________
> > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger!
> > Download today - it's FREE!
> >
> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
> >
> >
>
>
> Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> Learn more at:
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
> wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you use a VW bug based kit type car you could easily get a sub 2000 pound
curb weight EV. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: Wilderness Electric Vehicle warning
> On 16 Aug 2006 at 8:25, Roderick Wilde wrote:
>
> > I
> > personally am looking at developing a low voltage kit for small cars
like
> > Honda Civics.
>
> I think this is an excellent idea. The only problem you might have is
that
> it's gotten very difficult to find lightweight late-model cars. Not many
> come in under 2500 lb any more. Late 90s Civic hatchbacks are in the 2300
> lb range, I believe. You might have to go with something like a Kia Rio /
> Avella type.
>
> > possibility of a 48 volt AC drive city car type kit.
>
> This sounds interesting too! Maybe 45 mph or so top speed? If it had
> reasonable pep getting there, it might well have a market.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
> the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ - the former contact address
> ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) will soon disappear.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well John Wayland has spun his magic once again and talked Car and Driver
into coming to the NEDRA Nationals. They will be filming both days as well
as coming to the breakfast so it sounds like it could be a very in depth
article about the electric drag racing movement. The writer is none other
than contributing Editor Ted West who just did the article in this months
Car and Driver on the four million dollar, one of a kind, Ferrari. Here is
the article:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/11352/pininfarina-ferrari-p45.html Ted
will also be taking a run down the track at the wheel of the "White Zombie"
This should be a watershed moment in history for NEDRA thanks to that
creative tongue of our very own Plasma Boy. Thanks again John!
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.10.10/419 - Release Date: 8/15/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is your company interested in reclaiming some of that storage space for a
reasonable price?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> In fact, I think we have several thousand just sitting
> around in the storage room :-)
> Rod
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 16 Aug 2006 at 12:28, ROBERT GOUDREAU wrote:
> I just subscribe to it. http://electriccars.com/
Electriccar.com has also been discussed on this list before. It came up just
about a month ago, but the first mention I can find of this website on the EV
list dates from May of 2004.
Mike Chancey then asked about electriccars.com because they had copied
part of his work from the maeaa.org website, using it on their subscription
based website without his permission.
Lawrence Rhodes then found an amusing connection :
Registrant:
Archive Media (ELECTRICCARS-DOM)
743 sara dr
oxnard, CA 93030
US
ELECTRIC CARS MEMBERSHIP
Please Make check or money order payable to
Arcive Networks Inc.
( Since 1986 - Our parent company )
743 Sara Drive, Ventura/Oxnard, California 93030
BikiniGirl Network
743 Sara Drive
Ventura/Oxnard California 93030
(Nice detective work, Lawrence ;-)
You can see the thread above on this EV archive page :
http://www.mail-archive.com/ev@listproc.sjsu.edu/msg04790.html
Apparently Arcive Media have moved since then.
Domain Name: ELECTRICCARS.COM
Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
ARCIVE NETWORKS INC [EMAIL PROTECTED]
1532 Lorena Dr
Oxnard, CA 93030
US
805-650-9800
The design of arcive.com looks pretty darn similar to electriccars.com.
>From http://www.aboutus.org/ArcIve.com :
ARCIVE.com Worldwide Web Search Directories We specialize in website
design services for small or large business's. Website design, web site
designer, web site, designer, realvideo, coldfusion, web site production, web
site advertising, domain names, videophone, internet web design, web
hosting, webpages, archive media publication, advertising campaign, digital
video, digital sound, marketing, marketing specialist, computer, ventura,
oxnard, thousand ...
[followed by the rest of a page full of search engine keywords]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I could be making a rash judgement here, but the person who originally
posted this item doesn't seem to be asking about the battery so much as
promoting it. How about it Mr Goudreau - what's your relationship, if any,
with "Europositron"?
PS - Bill, thanks for pointing out my error. Sorry - I meant to write aluminum
air, not zinc-air. The ALCAN / UQM project was indeed an attempt to
commercialize AL-Air batteries for EVs. IIRC, specific energy was quite
good, but they ran into problems with specific power.
We're all certainly interested in advanced batteries, but I'm always skeptical
when a battery researcher or manufacturer trumpets his work as "technology
[that] promises to transform the global battery market." That's ad-speak, not
the language of researchers and scientists.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There was a thread about electriccars.com about two years ago. One
of their central pages was copied verbatim from one of my websites,
including the links to Amazon on my sales account. I sent them an
email about and never received a reply. Two years later it is still
up, you can see it at:
http://www.electriccars.com/info/build/
I am sorry you had to pay to access their copied data.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is mostly for folks in and around SEVA in Seattle...but,
I was going to the QFC at U-Village. And a face in a red VW Jetta...
Instinctively I yelled out... "Verbond !!" She Stopped.. Not
recognizing ME at first, I introduced my self...
She said Hello.... but then ...
She said " Did you know that Byron passed away in May" I said
"Oh no... I did not"
Only a few of the old timers will remember... But Byron was a Shop
Teacher ...An Industrial Arts Teacher... as we used to call it. And
built Fiat 850 Spyder to Electric, similar to the one that Ray Nedreau
built and drove for years.
About 2 years ago, Byron got a hold of me.. From his Electric Wheel
Chair... ( he lives just 5 blocks below me on 27th..I think ) And said
he wanted to sell his Fiat 850. It had been in the back yard, covered
with moss and leaves for a decade or more... I publicized it with
pictures on our e-mail list and Some one in the Club, I do not
remember who right now... DID buy it and got it back on the road...I
hope...
Any way.... I guess life can not go on for ever.. It is with sadness
that we mark the passing of one of the first SEVA members...
"Rest.. Byron Verbond.... I know you are building EVs for your friends
up there.....We're still down here.. trying to keep the Faith."
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From voltage forum:
Some information from an engineer that was present at Europositrons
roadshow.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Björn, Ingenjör (engineer) | 2004-09-22 | 15:19
Answer: new issue of shares Europositron
I to visited their road-show and I was NOT impressed!
I can hardy tell what to start carping about, but I had
a hundred objections when I went from there.
To begin with, the inventor did not seem to fully grasp
all electrical concepts, something he really should do
if he had come with something as fantastic as this superbattery.
Then all the bullshit about macromolecules and nanochemistry (haha!!).
The description about how the battery worked was the
most muddled popular "science" I have ever heard.
Furthermore, the man gave strange answers to simple questions of general
nature.
For example, when asked about the voltage of the battery, he answered
"the same as in the wall socket, about 200 volts in Europe and about a 100
in the USA.
If the man had been a serious person, he had instead spoken about the cell
voltage and
that the battery consists of cells in serial connection to make a battery
with a
suitable voltage (any) for the application in which you may want to use it.
Furthermore, the economist character from Delecta seemed to have no idea at
all of
what he was talking about (the inventor did not object when the man bursted
into folly),
but he was of course an economist...........mostly reminded me of Percy
Nilegård
(well-known domestic swedish comedian).
I haven´t investigated how much energy it is possible to store in a certain
amount
of 100% ionized aluminium, but consider the following: If the man has
succeded in
making each of the parts work individually, why not assemble them into a
prototype?
Batteries are not complicated constructions and clean rooms should really
not be
needed to test whether the battery is working or not (even with a fraction
of the performance they claim).
The battery scaleable and could be built in all sizes as cheaply
as todays lead-acid batteries.
Therefore a prototype the size of a matchbox should hardly cost anything to
make,
even if it was 500 times more expensive than a battery in serial production.
The least you could ask before spending several millions on this abortive
enterprize
is a simple test to make sure it is working.
I can bet 10000 dollars that this is a hoax but not one single dollar on
Europositron.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "ROBERT GOUDREAU" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 12:50 PM
Subject: EUROPOSITRON,Is this battery for real ?
*Finland Company Develops Revolutionary New Batteries **
***20 Times more powerful and not based on Acid Technology... This is
good!
**
*EUROPOSITRON: Finland*
Todays batteries are still based on 1950's technology... Acid based,
,weak,
heavy, clunky batteries are the only reason electric cars are not on the
streets...
Europositron, Finland has announced pending design and marketing plans for
Nano-Scale based batteries that will make an electric car go twice as far
as
a gas car goes on one tank of gas..."for free!"... These are 3-5 years
away
from being on sale and there is a big contraversy about how GM "supressed"
a
Japanese company who almost came out with a NiMH battery last year, but
the
Japanese company had based their battery on an US patent. Almost as
exciting
was a Li-ion (Lithium) technology coming from a California based company
which promised to improve batt-life by up to 300 percent.
But none of these compare to the EUROPOSITRON "NANO SCALE" battery;
This revolutionary technology does not use acid... these batteries ue the
most abundant metal in the world...Aluminum.
Based on Nobel Peace Prize winner Richard P. Feynman (1959) formulas,
Europositron's cell construction has pending patents worldwide. The
batterey
will also have remarkable operating temperature ratings - FROM 40 DEGREES
POSITVE to 70 NEGATIVE (centigrade)
THAT'S NOT ALL! The batteries expected usable lifespan will be 10 to 30
years!!!
To put this in real terms; If you own a Pontiac Fiero, that has been
converted to electric. Your range prior to conversion was about 240 miles.
When you dropped the Electric motor and the 12 batteries you bought from
Walmart your range dropped to 40 to 50 miles. But this was good because
you
could drive by the gas stations in your town and laugh.
In a couple years you will replace the lead acid batteries with
EUROPOSITRONS... Your range per charge will then become MORE THAN 800-1000
MILES!!! Given your daily comute of just 15 miles, this means you will
only
have to plug your electric car in ONCE EVERY TWO MONTHS!
Your gas bill that was $100 a month in 2006 has been replaced by a
whopping
$5 per month electricity charge.
Europositron Information - Europositron.com
You are witnessing exactly how Electric Cars will finally phase out gas
burners!
--- End Message ---
