EV Digest 5800
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Building a controller yourself?, was Re: EV grin is back!
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: World's First Electric Junior Dragster
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) #17
by Sharon G Alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: A bit cleaner air on the lake today
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) The Great Prius Pack Experiment is finally over.
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Blowing fuses in the scooter from hell.`HELP!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) 06 NEDRA Late Nite Nationals
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: A note on potentiometers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: A note on potentiometers
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: The next evolution of hobbyist EVs - there is money to be mad
e
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Solectria E10 sold for $24k
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Potbox alternative
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: A note on potentiometers
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: 06 NEDRA Late Nite Nationals
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: #17
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) motors ...
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Battery selection
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: motors ...
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) AC Propulsion EBOX video
by "ROBERT GOUDREAU" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Building a controller yourself
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) Re: Battery selection
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) motor HP relation to ICE HP
by William Padgett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I saw the Auburn, I'm currently the high bidder :op
I hope nobody bids against me, but can't in fairness ask/order anyone to not
bid on it (not that such an order would do any good, hehe)
if I don't get it, well, someone will have need/wanted it more than I do
trying to get the controller and dc/dc as cheap as I can so I can afford a
smart charger, my main objective is to maximize the life of the batteries
since if I have to replace them too often, I might as well stick with an ICE
I"ve been reading the archves, but it's slow going as there are soo many
threads that are not realative to what I need but I still have to skim them
to see if they have any gems for me :o)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 3:10 PM
Subject: Building a controller yourself?, was Re: EV grin is back!
I've started buying stuff and was looking for advice on a
controller. I will
proably be getting a 9" ADC motor (4001A maybe) and was wanting a cheap
controller (scarse cash) anyone got one in the US that will handle
up to
120volts/500-600 amps max?
A 120V/400A Cursit...I mean Curtis... runs $800-1000, so more amps =
higher cost.
Nothing fancy, no regen or anything like that. Wish I had the
schematics/diagrams for the one in the middle of this page looks
fairly easy
to construct
http://www.jstraubel.com/944EV/EVproject.htm
I've sent him an email asking if there were more details but didn't
get a
response.
He's the Chief Technical Officer for Tesla Motors, so he may be a bit
busy right now!
I'm not an electrical engineer and have only basic knowledge of
electronics
but I believe I could construct one, wouldn't be as pretty but it'd
work.
I've ordered some runman 2B battery regulator PCBs and instructions to
assemble as practice. I'll test them on a single battery with a regular
charger attached to make sure they work before hooking them up for real.
A basic knowledge of electronics and a plan to build your own
controller often equates to spending more than an equivalent
production version. It may save time to shop for a used controller -
there's an Auburn for sale on eBay right now.
My project will probably take 6 months, probably a year to finish
and will
probably make myself a veritable pest on this list, hehe.
Pester less, read archives more - info goes back several years that
might be helpful.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 8/26/06 11:50:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: RE: World's First Electric Junior Dragster
Date: 8/26/06 11:50:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Several times in the past I have suggested that NEDRA should keep
records for best 60 foot times for Electric Jr Dragsters.
1) There is no NHRA restriction on 60 ft times for Jr Dragsters.
2) A low 60 ft time is difficult to get and requires a very good
set-up on the machine.
3) It is one of the more difficult parts of the race to do well, at
least technically.
4) EVs typically kick butt in 60 ft compared to ICEs, so the numbers
should be impressive.
5) A hard launch is the most fun part of the race.
Bill Dube' >>
Great Idea Bill. D Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just to let you all know #17 EV conversion is done and on its way back to
Canada.
will start #18 this week. got to keep building em going.. Wayne in Kansas
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stefan,
Do not forget that you should not expect normal power
from a battery on its first run.
It must be broken in!
You may even have damaged it by taking it down so far.
After several tens of cycles the batteries are much
stronger and will deliver more power (higher voltage) for
a longer period.
This effect is especially visible when you use the batteries
every day, like in a daily driver.
If it is parked for a week, the batteries have less capacity
and show lower voltage.
After a few days of driving, they are peppy again and deliver
more power and more energy - especially immediately after charging.
Strange but true ( at least, that is my experience with the
AGM batteries so far).
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Stefan T. Peters
Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 10:55 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: A bit cleaner air on the lake today
Second run update:
Have gone through some sanding, smoothing a few edges of the boat, and
another coat of paint. Still have the super-slippery high gloss
clearcoat left to put on - should net me another knot or 2. Spent about
6 hours on the lake Friday, ran a good 5-6 miles from one end of this
2.5 mile lake and back on the 3 inch motor making 34lbs at the prop. The
110Ah flooded lead was predictable if heavy to load from the dock ;-)
One thing I noticed was that in the morning, the boat was very
responsive and peppy. It was priceless pulling along even to deep vee
fiberglass and metal boats with 10-20HP gas motors running at 1/3-1/2
throttle, buzzing and humming and chugging along at 5-7 knots. All the
while me and the Mrs waving from our dead silent boat with zero wake and
barely a ripple. A downside to this hull is that when it's moored along
side the dock, or just drifting with the motor off and anchor up, the
slightest bump or a decent breeze sends it off on it's way in a hurry -
LOL. There *are* a series of "runners" along the outside bottom spaced
6" apart that keep the boat nice and steady and pointed where you want
it when under power though.
Anyways, when the battery is fully charged, I can get 5-7 knots easy out
of the boat. But on the way back to the dock at the end of the day, the
motor was much less grunty and all I could get out of it was around 3
knots or less. It felt like the throttle was only at 50-60% or so, even
when "floored". I'm assuming this is from the lowered voltage since at
the time I had pulled around 35-40Ah out of the battery at a 22-26A rate
(it's rated for 75Ah at 25A, so that would be about 55% DOD). Combine
that with a bit of sag under load, and I guess you get to take a nap on
the way home...
Well this isn't cool, because the peak efficiency of that hull is at 4-8
knots. It would take only a little lees power at 3knots as 5knots. Kinda
a speed/power "shoulder" if you will. How do I keep the voltage at over
11? I was thinking perhaps swapping the group 27 110Ah (180 minutes @
25A) bat for two group 24 75Ah (120 minutes @ 25A) bats of the same make
in parallel. I would only be gaining 20 lbs of weight, but getting quite
a bit more Ah due to only pulling 12.5A out of each one. The main
thought is that I would have a higher voltage at the end of the day, so
no nap needed on the way back to the dock.
Would I truly be seeing only half the sag since the motor would be
seeing only half the battery resistance? Is sag under load only a
minuscule issue at these Amps? Would running the two bats in series
(24V) and using a 350W DC/DC converter give me plenty of pep at the end
of the day without too much of an efficiency penalty? And where would I
find a 350W 24V -> 12V DC converter for less then a bigger motor (3.5"
is ~$250) Or should I just get a bigger motor and run it at partial
power until the end of the day, since I don't need the 54lbs it would
spit out?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just 8 of the 11 Prius Packs that will end up at a university in
SoCal, and 3 went to a friends place. It was a terrific experience.
Ended up making several thermal biased variable speed fan circuits for
keeping the packs cool using as little power as possible to do so. So
it turns out that paralleling NIMH is quite possible.
Those Toyota boys did quite an engineering job on those packs. Thermal,
electrical and mechanical engineering was done very well. I have a much
deeper appreciation for the Prius Teams now.
Shortly the Nicads should be arriving. For right now the truck is a
light weight 3000 lb glider. 2000lbs lighter than when I purchased it
:)
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A 15 amp is too small. My 500 watt scooters use 60amp resetable fuses.(my
daughter who weighed 125 pounds blew her stock Vego fuse climbing hills)
Your's might be technically correct if you do the math but for one thing
climbing any hills with 250 watts is not going to work unless you are 90
pounds. I'm 250 pounds live in San Francisco and my double everything
(controller/motor/batteries) Gemini (Vego 600sx modified)will climb most
hills. I'd use a larger fuse till it doesn't blow anymore or replace with a
20 or 30 amp resetable fuse. Lawrence Rhodes...
----- Original Message -----
From: "nikki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 11:12 AM
Subject: Blowing fuses in the scooter from hell.`HELP!
Hey folks,
My partner's scooter (second hand and bought this week) has an
annoying habit of blowing the 15A battery pack fuse every time it
gets ridden up a very steep hill.
Now I've had a look at the wiring and can't see any shorts anywhere,
but it does appear that the controller (an unbranded Chinese cheapo
controller which goes right along with the cheapo Chinese bike)
doesn't appear to have any over load protection as our other scooter
does. (our sakura's controller cuts out if you overload the motor)
I'm wondering if it's possible the controller is shot and in need of
replacement. The motor claims it's a 250W motor (brushless -in-wheel
design) and the battery pack operates at a nominal 36v.
From my calculations there is NO WAY the fuse should be blowing.
Okay, so the continuous power of the motor is 250W meaning that it
could go higher than that at peak but in order for the 15A fuse to
blow it would have to be trying to pull over 540W and I have serious
doubts that's the case.
I'm sorry I can't provide much more information but as it is a second
hand bike of unkown make I can only tell you what is actually on the
bike. I do have a spare 36V controller which I know would handle
the bike but the wiring looms are slightly different. To save myself
time and hassle by re-wiring the thing for a new controller does
anyone have any bright ideas? I'm contemplating putting an Ammeter in
the circuit temporarily to see just how much drain I'm getting on
regular riding.
I'm stumped on this one. I know these electric bike/scooters aren't
fast, but we use them in the terrible traffic jam known as a UK rush
hour to get through the traffic!
Cheers
Nikki.

www.multiphonikks.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cant believe I may be ( one ) of the first to REPORT !
Now that I am (semi) retired, I suspect I will be able to attend more
EVents as they come up.
This was a GREAT one, ..and as John Wayland said.."This was Just like
the Good Old Days !" ( or something like that )
Pictures are worth thousands of words, and videos worth thousands of
pictures ... so here are some web addresses..
( PS... The videos are from my Canon Sure Shot...Lo res... sorry...)
Rich's Goldie: http:/home.comcast.net/~stevenslough/Goldie.AVI
Zombie and Poppy:
http:/home.comcast.net/~stevenslough/ZombieAndPoppy.AVI
Gone Postal :http:/home.comcast.net/~stevenslough/GonePostal.AVI
Holy [EMAIL PROTECTED] (a Zombie Demo ride)
http:/home.comcast.net/~stevenslough/HolyS.AVI
!!Disclaimer... Some may find the "expletives" and the ROUGH Language
in this Clip ... objectionable. All DUE to EXTREME Execeleration !!
My apologies... ( i made the driver do it....)( it was a super EV Grin)
I am going to send our SEVA Web.Guy Ryan, a CD disc of all my stills, so
he can create a photo-album of thumbs, and full size.
John Wayland' organization and hospitality is only second to his
accomplishment at the track, and the securing of a writer and
photographer from Car and Driver Magazine. They spent 3 days in EV
Heaven.. The writer..Ted West, actually DROVE the Zombie several times
into the low 12's and even managed to BLOW up a BATTERY on his last run
Saturday night.
Oatmar's Porsche ran flawlessly as well until his last run Saturday
night where he Also had a battery melt down. ( no fire...)
Dave Cloud had the same fate, but the heat started a small fire at one
battery, but before track safety folks could get down there, pretty much
the whole back end of his Geo-Speedster was a blaze.. Now it is covered
in fire extinguisher powder... What a mess. So sorry to see this bit
of Bad Luck befall one of our most constant inventors/drivers/racers.
Rich Rudmans Chargers were All Over our are... With plenty of INPUT
power thanks to PIR.
Roy LeMure and Chip are to be thanked for all there work leading up to
the EV-ent. Love the new T-shirts.
At the Wayland "Juice Bar" on Saturday afternoon, Hospitality and Lunch
was Great, thanks to the Mrs. Wayland. With house and garage Air
Conditioning ON FULL, and outside temp in the 90's and I think it was 5
or 6 EVs sucking juice... John's watt/hour meter was going round as fast
as the wheels on my LiIon Bicycle at 20 per !!
If I want to get these videos POSTED and get this e-mail off I am going
to have to stop... There is lots more to tell.. The Breakfast, the
EV Car Show, the Late Night Dinner at 2 am, and all the Good EV
Friendslhips and One Racer helping another...
One MORE Big THANK You to all the un-named NEDRA volunteers, and all the
folks who put money into T-Shirts, and the Raffle...
See ya soon:
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> The shutter I was talking about is a piece of film with gradual
> clear-to black transition through all shades of gray on the way.
> It is trivial to make such a shutter... But, really, while it is
> all fun, it's a school-hobby approach.
Paying for a high-tech, expensive part *usually* gets you a reliable,
quality part. But, not always. The Curtis potbox is a good example.
Though expensive, it is built with a cheap low-quality pot that has
proven to be unreliable. Lots of folks have Curtis potboxes with bad
pots.
But it's easy to buy a high-quality replacement pot that is an exact
replacement. The existing Curtis box, return spring, wires, etc. can all
be reused. Of course such a pot will cost more ($10-$20); but will also
be a lot more reliable. For example, I see Mouser has a Vishay model
657, 20k ohms, sealed, -40+125 deg.C, life 1 million rotations, $13.95.
If you *don't* have a Curtis potbox, then you aren't restricted to using
something that will fit in the old case. Then the automotive throttle
pots like the ones Paul Compton mentioned make sense. They are built for
the application, with internal springs, zero adjustment slots, etc. but
mount differently. They are expensive new, but you may be able to
salvage one from a car to get a lower price.
Then there are all the alternative technologies; optical, hall-effect,
inductive, etc. They cost a lot more than a cheap pot; but are very
cost-competitive with a GOOD pot. The trouble is that your controller
needs to be designed to use such a device. And if it ever fails, you may
be hard pressed to find a replacement.
Finally, Victor implies that you can't have high reliability with a
cheap or homemade part. I disagree. First, you may be using a surplus or
used part, which is identical to the "new" part except for the price.
Second, obtaining high reliability is a matter of "know-how" and
attention to details --not price. There are endless examples of cheap
homemade items that nevertheless last essentially forever. You just have
to know what you're doing!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Wrote:
> With an LED and phototransistor, you tend to get an
> all-or-nothing response at the instant the edge of
> the shutter blocks the beam.
Unless you use a lense to collect light from a larger
area to throw on the photo-detector, then you can
gradually cut it off.
Blocking the light into a "stripe" also makes it more
linear, avoiding that in the middle of the range the
movement results in the most light change.
As an alternative to lenses and stuff, you can use one
or more diffuse and square LEDs, like the ones used
for VU-meters. Use these as source and the shutter
will gradually reduce the light from the LED(s) to
the photo-detector.
BTW - modern LEDs with built-in lenses would allow
about 5 mm (LED width) shutter travel to go from
"open" to "closed" if the beam thrown by the LED
is somewhat consistent.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lawrence,
Where do you find forklift motors for free?
What type?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 6:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: The next evolution of hobbyist EVs - there is money to be
made
What I think placed after Don's questions. LR
> Granted these are not easy products, but I would like to point out a few
> things that do put this within the grasp of the entrepreneurial hobbyist:
>
> 1) Otmar is doing well with his DC Controllers - is an AC controller that
> much more complicated? (remember, I am naive about the internals of
> controllers)
AC is much more expensive for the power. Look at AC propulsion, Solectria
and Victors AC drives. Victors I think are the most thrifty but still
expensive.
> 2) For sure, there are no hobbyists building AC motors (or even DC ones),
> but I am sure Jim's chomping at the bit to give it a try. Can a quantity
> (say 30 per year) be made for $2000-$3000 each? Maybe the idea would be
to
> adapt, modify and or rewind existing motors for EV purpose.
Motors are cheap. In hobby class the ac aren't much cheaper than DC motors.
A good motor for a medium sized EV is 1500 dollars Why would I want to pay
more. BTW I find used motors from forks lifts. I got a bunch for free.
>
> 3) The idea behind the lithium battery module is to take advantage of the
> 18650 lithium cell and leverage existing BMS for a more convenient, ready
to
> use large EV purpose cell (maybe an 80Ah 12V battery). Is it that complex
> that money cannot be made from enthusiasts market similar to what Otmar
and
> Rich are doing?
I'd love to get my hands on some lithium and a spot welder
>
> 4) I know of several hobbyists who have designed and built BMSs that work
> well for lead acid, one of those is the "Lee Hart Battery Balancer". I
know
> a lot of work went into this and I am not trying to minimize the effort.
> Victor and John are working on something like this. Cannot one be designed
> and built for a larger scale system required by lithium?
In my opinion the BMS is a big problem with lithium. If something
offordable comes up that won't burn the house down I'm in.
> One advantage the hobbyist has is that generally they build something
> without keeping track of their time invested. There is also an
expectation
> that they would never be paid for all their R&D work, most likely only
> manufacturing costs and profit from there. I am sure if Otmar or Rich
added
> up all the time they put into their products, they would probably average
> out to 25 cents an hour. Maybe if they new this at the beginning, they
> would have never started.
I'm sure Otmar and Rich are paying the bills with their creations. I'm glad
they did what they did. I hope they are glad and not killing themselves. I
had a talk with Otmar a couple of years ago about the 18650. I have a
sneeking suspiction he's been thinking about it. I at least hope he has.
Otmar is a very savvy guy concerning electronics. He is in a small group of
talented designers that understand the need & might be able to make that
happen. Lawrnece Rhodes....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ebay Item number: 300018846942 in Johnson City, Tennessee
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_W0QQitemZ300018846942QQcmdZViewItem
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wabash seems to have a rugged device in the US:
http://www.wabashtech.com/pdf/971%20leaflet%20aw.pdf
But your vehicle's original throttle position sensor
is the first place to start.
If it is not 5K, then it is not difficult to make it 5K
or to find a sensor from a vehicle that is 5K, several
were suggested, or use a Bosch OEM part like Victor said.
Safety first.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 1:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Potbox alternative
Paul Compton wrote:
> If you've got a controller with a 0-5K, or 5-0K, or a potentiometer
> input, then take a look at
> http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=4246718
> http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=7006457
>
> Automotive rated conductive plastic pots with 'D' shaft activation
> and built in return springs. 5 million full cycles, 10 million
> 'dither' cycles.
Looks perfect, Paul! I hadn't seen these listed anywhere before. Thanks!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Many years ago there was a range of broadcast audio consoles (I don't recall
the brand now) that used LDRs and incandescent light bulbs to eliminate the
noise of dirty pots. They had conventional (cheap!) carbon pots for the
operator, but they only controlled the brightness of a small lamp which
shone on a CdS cell. The cell then controlled the input amplifier's gain.
The incandescent filmament had a natural time constant that eliminated
effect on it from noise in the pot.
It was a clever idea but murder to keep working right. The lamps had wide
manufacturing tolerances, so they behaved just a bit differently, and it was
extraordinarily difficult to get the stereo channels balanced and keep them
that way. If they were balanced at moderate levels, they'd be canted to the
left at high levels and to the right at low. Or vice versa. And the
response lagged a fraction of a second when you faded up or down, just
enough to make you a little unsure that the console was doing what you
wanted it to. (Can you tell I once had to use one of these consoles for
about a year? ;-)
But in an EV you're not usually concerned with precise control or tracking
two controllers together. So this might be one way to eliminate the noise.
Your Curtis potbox could probably control the brightness of a small light
bulb directly, then a CdS cell of the right size could talk to the
controller.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Some may have to add the extra / after the http:/ to make the link work :-)
Rich's Goldie: http://home.comcast.net/~stevenslough/Goldie.AVI
Zombie and Poppy:
http://home.comcast.net/~stevenslough/ZombieAndPoppy.AVI
Gone Postal :
http://home.comcast.net/~stevenslough/GonePostal.AVI
Holy [EMAIL PROTECTED] (a Zombie Demo ride)
http://home.comcast.net/~stevenslough/HolyS.AVI
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Steven Lough
> Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 3:29 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR
> Subject: 06 NEDRA Late Nite Nationals
>
>
> Cant believe I may be ( one ) of the first to REPORT !
>
> Now that I am (semi) retired, I suspect I will be able to attend more
> EVents as they come up.
>
> This was a GREAT one, ..and as John Wayland said.."This was Just like
> the Good Old Days !" ( or something like that )
>
> Pictures are worth thousands of words, and videos worth thousands of
> pictures ... so here are some web addresses..
> ( PS... The videos are from my Canon Sure Shot...Lo res... sorry...)
>
> Rich's Goldie: http:/home.comcast.net/~stevenslough/Goldie.AVI
>
> Zombie and Poppy:
> http:/home.comcast.net/~stevenslough/ZombieAndPoppy.AVI
>
> Gone Postal :http:/home.comcast.net/~stevenslough/GonePostal.AVI
>
> Holy [EMAIL PROTECTED] (a Zombie Demo ride)
> http:/home.comcast.net/~stevenslough/HolyS.AVI
>
> !!Disclaimer... Some may find the "expletives" and the ROUGH Language
> in this Clip ... objectionable. All DUE to EXTREME Execeleration !!
> My apologies... ( i made the driver do it....)( it was a super EV Grin)
>
> I am going to send our SEVA Web.Guy Ryan, a CD disc of all my stills, so
> he can create a photo-album of thumbs, and full size.
>
> John Wayland' organization and hospitality is only second to his
> accomplishment at the track, and the securing of a writer and
> photographer from Car and Driver Magazine. They spent 3 days in EV
> Heaven.. The writer..Ted West, actually DROVE the Zombie several times
> into the low 12's and even managed to BLOW up a BATTERY on his last run
> Saturday night.
>
> Oatmar's Porsche ran flawlessly as well until his last run Saturday
> night where he Also had a battery melt down. ( no fire...)
>
> Dave Cloud had the same fate, but the heat started a small fire at one
> battery, but before track safety folks could get down there, pretty much
> the whole back end of his Geo-Speedster was a blaze.. Now it is covered
> in fire extinguisher powder... What a mess. So sorry to see this bit
> of Bad Luck befall one of our most constant inventors/drivers/racers.
>
> Rich Rudmans Chargers were All Over our are... With plenty of INPUT
> power thanks to PIR.
>
> Roy LeMure and Chip are to be thanked for all there work leading up to
> the EV-ent. Love the new T-shirts.
>
> At the Wayland "Juice Bar" on Saturday afternoon, Hospitality and Lunch
> was Great, thanks to the Mrs. Wayland. With house and garage Air
> Conditioning ON FULL, and outside temp in the 90's and I think it was 5
> or 6 EVs sucking juice... John's watt/hour meter was going round as fast
> as the wheels on my LiIon Bicycle at 20 per !!
>
> If I want to get these videos POSTED and get this e-mail off I am going
> to have to stop... There is lots more to tell.. The Breakfast, the
> EV Car Show, the Late Night Dinner at 2 am, and all the Good EV
> Friendslhips and One Racer helping another...
>
> One MORE Big THANK You to all the un-named NEDRA volunteers, and all the
> folks who put money into T-Shirts, and the Raffle...
>
> See ya soon:
> --
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> Day: 206 850-8535
> Eve: 206 524-1351
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: http://www.seattleeva.org
>
>
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Hi Wayne,
So, what is #18?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey
Kansas City, MO
At 06:21 PM 8/27/2006, you wrote:
Just to let you all know #17 EV conversion is done and on its way
back to Canada.
will start #18 this week. got to keep building em going.. Wayne
in Kansas
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I'd sure like to know where I could find a decent used 36 V lift motor 8" or 9"
in diameter with external shaft, for even $150. I've been looking for more
than a year for one, and they are few and far between. Most are pump motors
with internal spline. The drive motors are of all sorts, but mostly 7" or 11"
and the length always seems to be an issue - too short / too long. Also, the
shafts are usually difficult to adapt to. So one year later, and still nothing
...
That's why I was asking those on the list to look in the backs of their
storage closets for a used motor - no one came up with one though ...
Steve
Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Lawrence,
Where do you find forklift motors for free?
What type?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 6:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: The next evolution of hobbyist EVs - there is money to be
made
What I think placed after Don's questions. LR
> Granted these are not easy products, but I would like to point out a few
> things that do put this within the grasp of the entrepreneurial hobbyist:
>
> 1) Otmar is doing well with his DC Controllers - is an AC controller that
> much more complicated? (remember, I am naive about the internals of
> controllers)
AC is much more expensive for the power. Look at AC propulsion, Solectria
and Victors AC drives. Victors I think are the most thrifty but still
expensive.
> 2) For sure, there are no hobbyists building AC motors (or even DC ones),
> but I am sure Jim's chomping at the bit to give it a try. Can a quantity
> (say 30 per year) be made for $2000-$3000 each? Maybe the idea would be
to
> adapt, modify and or rewind existing motors for EV purpose.
Motors are cheap. In hobby class the ac aren't much cheaper than DC motors.
A good motor for a medium sized EV is 1500 dollars Why would I want to pay
more. BTW I find used motors from forks lifts. I got a bunch for free.
>
> 3) The idea behind the lithium battery module is to take advantage of the
> 18650 lithium cell and leverage existing BMS for a more convenient, ready
to
> use large EV purpose cell (maybe an 80Ah 12V battery). Is it that complex
> that money cannot be made from enthusiasts market similar to what Otmar
and
> Rich are doing?
I'd love to get my hands on some lithium and a spot welder
>
> 4) I know of several hobbyists who have designed and built BMSs that work
> well for lead acid, one of those is the "Lee Hart Battery Balancer". I
know
> a lot of work went into this and I am not trying to minimize the effort.
> Victor and John are working on something like this. Cannot one be designed
> and built for a larger scale system required by lithium?
In my opinion the BMS is a big problem with lithium. If something
offordable comes up that won't burn the house down I'm in.
> One advantage the hobbyist has is that generally they build something
> without keeping track of their time invested. There is also an
expectation
> that they would never be paid for all their R&D work, most likely only
> manufacturing costs and profit from there. I am sure if Otmar or Rich
added
> up all the time they put into their products, they would probably average
> out to 25 cents an hour. Maybe if they new this at the beginning, they
> would have never started.
I'm sure Otmar and Rich are paying the bills with their creations. I'm glad
they did what they did. I hope they are glad and not killing themselves. I
had a talk with Otmar a couple of years ago about the 18650. I have a
sneeking suspiction he's been thinking about it. I at least hope he has.
Otmar is a very savvy guy concerning electronics. He is in a small group of
talented designers that understand the need & might be able to make that
happen. Lawrnece Rhodes....
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
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I'm converting and 87 Suzuki Samurai. It weighs about
2000 pounds plus the batteries are gross vehicle
weight is 2923 pounds it has a 9 inch ADC motor and a
DCP600 controller. I have pretty well settled on 16
8v batteries and am looking at Trojan, USB, and Decca.
I don't want to go with the 6 V because it gets too
heavy for the car.
All was going well until I read the recent posts
raving about the Hawkers. I went looking and found the
Odyssey PC2150 and the idea of using 10 or 12 of them
is real appealing. I have yet to price them (the
prices on the Internet are outrageous) but was
wondering if they might not be a better compromise
than the 8V. The 2150s have 95 amp hours and weigh 75
pounds.
>From all reports the maintenance and longevity of the
Hawkers is outstanding. I am not hung up on range. 30
miles should be plenty. Since a dozen Odysseys would
weigh 900 pounds and 16 8V would run about 1088
pounds, and since the voltage would go from 128 to
144, I guess the range would stay about the same and
performance should be a little better.
Any thoughts on the subject of the Hawkers as well as
opinions on the different brands of flooded batteries
would be appreciated.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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At 07:00 PM 27/08/06 -0700, Steve wrote:
I'd sure like to know where I could find a decent used 36 V lift motor 8"
or 9" in diameter with external shaft, for even $150. I've been looking
for more than a year for one, and they are few and far between. Most are
pump motors with internal spline. The drive motors are of all sorts, but
mostly 7" or 11" and the length always seems to be an issue - too short /
too long. Also, the shafts are usually difficult to adapt to. So one
year later, and still nothing ...
That's why I was asking those on the list to look in the backs of their
storage closets for a used motor - no one came up with one though ...
G'day Steve
Get yourself a holiday to Australia, and I'll find you a motor to stick
into your luggage to take home - they seem to breed on my motor shelf,
looks like 9 big ones and about the same in pups....
Although I'm sure that there are a lot of motors a heck of a lot closer to
you than I am.
Go looking for the smaller, independent forklift service guys, ask them &
they may know where someone has a dead fork, reach truck, towmotor,
conveyor truck, etc. For the lowest-cost to get bits to build an on-road EV
from, look for a big 72V or similar fork, towmotor, etc. that has good
control gear and a charger. Look for a 24V to 48V fork or whatever for the
motor. You may find that you can buy the whole thing for little more than
scrap value, rat it for the things you want and sell the rest to scrap for
not a lot less than what you paid for the lot.
John Wayland may be able to "flag" any that he hears of whilst he
fork-wrenches, and anyone else in that kind of trade.
I got for $500aus ($1Aus = $0.73US) the electrics from a 72V conveyor
truck, GE EV1 SCR controller, potbox, 72/12V DC/DC, contactors, twin motors
plus compound wound "lift" motor (ran the hydraulics). I've also managed to
accumulate the following: electrics from a heavy 24V reach truck for around
$150Aus of parts plus some time, a 10kW Hitachi 48V with broken brush-end
casting for $50Aus, a 36V sweeper motor about 7"dia x 18" long (swap,
forget what for), a 72V fork electrics (stuffed electronics) charger,
contactors, traction motor for around $250Aus, plus others from I forget
what deals now.
The other place you can try are the scrap dealers, but they'll probably
need you to "haunt" them, frequently visiting them, don't hassle them and
take them some beer if you want to leave your phone number and expect any
calls (don't forget the carton of beer for them 'spotting' something you
can use).
Above all, have fun scrounging and searching.
Regards
[Technik] James
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http://www.stefanoparis.com/piaev/acpropulsion/eBox/ebox.html
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> trying to get the controller and dc/dc as cheap as I can so I can afford a
> smart charger, my main objective is to maximize the life of the batteries
> since if I have to replace them too often, I might as well stick with an ICE
>
If you only consider your costs, stick to ICEs.
The pack should be the only part that "wears out", so electricity and battery
replacement are the true indicators of per-mile expenses, not the parts you
purchase.
Just don't go cheap and then complain about EVs ;}
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Don't know about Odyssey, but Hawker Genesis are infamous in the EV world
for needing a blast of very high current charging, at least for a few
minutes. If they don't get it, they quickly lose capacity and fail early.
EVermont and Solectria both determined that this was a concern, and that's
why Solectria stopped using Hawker Genesis batteries after using them for
only a short time in the mid 1990s.
Your lowest cost per mile of use will be with 6 volt golf car batteries.
Many people go at conversion from the wrong end - they pick the vehicle,
then the motor and controller, then try to find batteries they can use with
them in that vehicle.
Ideally you would start at the "other end." Decide how much range you need.
That will tell you what percentage of vehicle mass has to be batteries.
Then find a vehicle that will hold that much lead and also has the other
characteristics you need and desire (good aero, efficient, low drag,
attractive to you, carries x passenger and y cargo, etc.). Decide whether
you want low cost per mile (flooded golf car batteries) or strong
acceleration (AGM, probably 12 volts each). Then see what voltage you have
(anywhere from 72 or 96 volts to 240 volts), and choose the motor and
controller accordingly.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Hi folks,
New to the EV realm, but looking into doing a conversion. In the
research stages.
Can anyone tell me the relationship between electric motor HP and
rated HP from an ICE? I'm looking into how much motor I might need
on a specific car, and looking at the factory engine HP specs for
cars I'm considering converting.
Is there a reliable conversion between electric motor power and ICE
power? Or is it the same? Or does torque count more than HP?
Thanks.
Scott Padgett
http://wscottpadgett.com
___________________
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