EV Digest 5801
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Car and Driver Runs 12.3 @ 103 mph in White Zombie!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: reg weirdness
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Building a controller yourself
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: motor HP relation to ICE HP
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) From woodburn last year to WOW this year, Late Night Nationals Report
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Building a controller yourself
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Building a controller yourself
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: From woodburn last year to WOW this year, Late Night
Nationals Report
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) charging question
by Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) SepEx Control
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Building a controller yourself
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: charging question
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: charging question
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Battery selection
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: motor HP relation to ICE HP
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Building a controller yourself
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Simple "BMS" to keep batteries from bursting (was:
woodburn.......)
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: charging question
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Danger den magII water pump
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Building a controller yourself
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) LNN pics
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Building a controller yourself
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Building a controller yourself
by "Joe Vitek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Reversing White Zombie
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Let me tell you all .. the 2nd best seat in the house is watching White
Zombie launch..
>From the other lane...
This while you are making a LOT of tire smoke with Goldie.. and trying to
figure out how to keep her in my own lane.. then.. thing thing...
This large white thing.. Vaults... No... is Catapautled off the starting
line off to my left... Hey I should be watching ... My own damn 1200 amp
launch...
And Hoooollly Shit! that thing is about 25 Degres up angle.. and 50 Ft by me
and gone....Man that's a quick launch!!!
About the only part of the run in I can hold a candle to is my Low 3rd Gear
at 1000 amps. And at that do I Even slow down the receeding tail lights...
Wow.... I gotta get me one of them FAST Evs... I though I had one...
My mistake....
Spanked.. badly..
Nothing borken... about 6 runs... I out ran every body I think.. Clearly my
own lead woke up and brought back the old days.. of Run after Run of.. well
Now days
Tame levels of Soso runs.
I got down to a 17.0. with street tires and 20 PSI. I did two runs and
recharged in less than 8 minutes, Then dogged and let the 120 Fill Goldie
while I tuned chargers for the rest of the crowd.
So.. I have Goldie back to where she has been for the last.. what??? 8
years... time for some better ideas..
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: Car and Driver Runs 12.3 @ 103 mph in White Zombie!
> Wayland wrote:
>
> > Ted lifted both front tires about 4 inches off the ground
> > immediately, so the front wheels were stationary and not rotating for
> > about 40 feet...
>
> Is this run on video?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Clearly it died.
Why I don't know.
But they do that from time to time...
You need another one. I have units that are years old..
Not a problem....
other just say goodbye. I am fearing ESD, and that's why I ship them in
anti static bags now.
Cool it down, Wash it in warm soapy water, Blow dry. If it just stays on no
matter where the VR1 pot is set.. it's dead!
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Brandt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 7:34 PM
Subject: reg weirdness
> Holy cascade reaction, batman!
>
> I've got a few batteries in, with regs attached and adjusted. Today while
trying to fit yet another panel in (does this construction process ever
end?!?) I saw one of the regs turn on (green LED lit up). This was odd, as
that battery wasn't under charge. It wasn't just the setting, either. I
tried adjusting VR1, and it didn't shut off. I caught it early, as it was
just starting to get warm, so it really was on, and functioning. I
disconnected that reg. Now whenever I connect the battery, it turns on
(green LED on, heatsink warms up).
>
> As far as I know, nothing fell on it - there wasn't anything in the
vicinity, and there is no obvious damage. I also checked it for moisture,
and there was none.
>
> Any ideas what is going on? Recommendations?
>
> David Brandt
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hehe, get what you pay for. I won't be doing any complaining. I have a very
light foot (for the size I am, hehe) so the controller doesn't have to be
top of the line (won't be drag racing with it) nor will it have to do high
speeds (will be in-town commuter), just needs to be dependable. If I get a
simple controller and dc/dc design that I can build myself, if something
goes wrong, I can easily fix it myself.
As for costs and sticking to an ICE if that's the only consideration...
well... I doubt gas is going to go down much and in 10-20 years (about the
time I want to retire) it will probably be much more expensive to run an
ICE. I want to be able to run errands (groceries and such) without worrying
that I'm killing my budget with gas costs.
Maybe they'll have cheap transportation by then, I don't know, but I'm not
going to take the chance. I'll get me a dependable electric vehicle now and
worry a lot less about the future.
BTW, scooters/motorcycles are out, I'd look like an escapee from a circus if
I got on one of those things (picture a big clown on a scooter < a foot
high)
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: Building a controller yourself
trying to get the controller and dc/dc as cheap as I can so I can afford
a
smart charger, my main objective is to maximize the life of the batteries
since if I have to replace them too often, I might as well stick with an
ICE
If you only consider your costs, stick to ICEs.
The pack should be the only part that "wears out", so electricity and
battery
replacement are the true indicators of per-mile expenses, not the parts
you
purchase.
Just don't go cheap and then complain about EVs ;}
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Can anyone tell me the relationship between electric motor HP and
> rated HP from an ICE? I'm looking into how much motor I might need
> on a specific car, and looking at the factory engine HP specs for
> cars I'm considering converting.
>
> Is there a reliable conversion between electric motor power and ICE
> power? Or is it the same? Or does torque count more than HP?
Simple rule of thumb I've seen mentioned on this list is to take half
the ICE output in hp to get the EV controller peak output in kw. An
econobox with 100hp can be equalled by a motor fed by a 120V/400A
Curtis, but put in a 156V/1000A Zilla and it's closer to the same car
with 300hp. You then have to find the right motor to handle this.
If you go AC, the motor and controller come as a package, but Victor
can give you a spreadsheet if you are shopping at metricmind.com,
while a DC system can be done with what is available...within reason.
As always, YMMV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Everyone
Well I'm finely back home and able to get some posting in!
I decided to play hooky Friday and shot from my place straight over to the
Wayland's juice bar. I figured I'd miss breakfast being I didn't get a real
early start. When I made it over the hill I called John, where one of his
servants answered his phone. I was informed that it was still on going to my
delight. I was passed over to John who had finished woofing down the 1/2 of
waffle he was chewing on when I called 8^P. John took my order and Breakfast
was served as I was sipping on my fresh cup of coffee 2 minutes after I
arrived 8^ )
The Village Inn is so hospitable! I wanted a soda and told the guys I had to
go get one as it was pretty hot out this weekend. They ran up behind me and
asked me where I was going to get a one! I'm like Dahhh we're at a restaurant!
Short story was, 4 of us all ordered pops and the gal Cheryl there said they
were complimentary, as were a couple of refills, just great folks there! At
one point during breakfast this big sewage sucking truck pulled along the side
of the road and blocked like the whole car display from the road! John just
couldn't believe it when they all got out. John mumbled something about having
a Greek moment and shuffles out the door toward these heathens who have
partitioned the show from traffic. Well John came back laughing, the guys had
stopped to check the cars out, he he. The pulled up to where they were
supposed to be working promptly, funny stuff though.
Off to the Juice bar! This is where Steve's video was shot, funny stuff!
Describing the Juice bar for those who have not been there... It's like a big
ant hill, some bringing things in, some out. Some struggling with things ten
times their size while others swifting away small egg like pods,
it's...unworldly! With Car and Driver there interviewing John I felt that Tim
was going to finish reverse with no problem with the princess occupied. Tim
worked through out the day as did most getting ready for the ride to PIR. Well
I'm someone who will admit when I'm wrong, well John saved the day when he had
to direct Tim on how to rework the mistakes Tim had done 8^ ( So although Tim
is still Wonder boy to me, he has not yet achieved Plasma Boy abilities, LMAO!
Well Tim's screw up 8^P caused us to miss are 4:30 departure time so with FT
and Roy in lead, a small group of us headed out to lock in the electric area
where the power is. Well lets just say that trip was an adventure! Turns out
that none of us had positive memories of how to get there so with this snake
chain of cars we crisscrossed half of the metro-Portland area, LMAO!
Okay so now that we arrive at the track that same ant mentality starts up
again and everything that was done at Waylands repeats backwards! That's how
it felt to this ant anyway, he he. Running late and with a packed house at PIR
things were hectic. Rudmans barking orders the NEDRA banner is hoisted and
shirts laid out. Cars are plugging into the PFC's like clockwork when WZ
pulled in with it's newly installed reverse! This is where it starts to get
fun...
Ted West from Car and Driver lets Tim do the first run, maybe two. I missed
a lot of the first runs as I was busy with raffle tickets and other support
agendas, so others will have to chime in here. I did shoot some video as did
Dan the airplane man who also came out to watch and learn about EV's so I'll
get it to peeps when I can get it transferred. What I can say is that I got to
tape a few Ted runs and as the evening wore on the burnouts got meaner, the
times got better and it looked like he was having a ball. I hope it shows it
on tape but on one burnouts the car started to do that crab walk thing and the
nose started pointing to the wall as the front wheels strained to keep the
rears from unleashing their fury. I remember thinking let up, let up, he he.
Like I said I hope it comes out good as it was a good burnout 8^ )
Not all was well at the track though as Dave Cloud's car came back towed from
a previous run. The damage was catastrophic! A fire broke out and was not
put out before the whole motor / battery area burnt up 8^ ( Dave's heart had
to be breaking but he kept the mood light and told stories of how he'd just
spent two weeks getting his reverse going for this event. I'll post pics in
memory in the Hall of Flames for those to pay their respects (and to gock) 8^ P
On some fun news Otmar pulled some batteries (because he's Otmar) and went
for the 192 volt record and succeeding it with good margin 8^ ) GP had some
good launches as Rod had locked the front end down which seemed to really help,
but it's times were not as good as Rod was hoping for. Goldie ran without any
problems but, being the first time Ive seen it run I'm not sure how it compared
to prior events. There is so much more to tell but I'm really tired and must
end now. I promise more tomorrow as well as posted pics.
Till then, One tired pup (but happy)(more on that tomorrow) 8^ )
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
On 27 Aug 2006 at 22:58, Mark McCurdy wrote:
> If I get a simple
> controller and dc/dc design that I can build myself, if something goes wrong,
> I
> can easily fix it myself.
Sounds like what you want is a 3-step contactor controller. It's hardly
elegant, but it's utterly straightforward. They've been around as long as
EVs, since long before transistors were invented. You can build or fix one
with basic electrical skills.
You split the battery pack in half. Using high currrent contactors you
connect the halves in parallel for low speed, and in series for high speed.
Add a starting resistor to limit current when you pull away from a stop,
with a bypass contactor once you're underway a few seconds later, and you're
done.
Combine a 3-step with a 4 or 5 speed manual transmission, and you
effectively have 8 or 10 usable road speeds. (You don't want to drive
continously in the very lowest contactor speed, with the starting resistor
in the circuit.) You can usually get something pretty close to any speed
you want.
If you buy the contactors new the cost is prohibitive, but if you can find
some used contactors from a forklift dealer or elsewhere - they have to be
able to break several hundred amps at your voltage - it may meet your test
of affordability.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > If I get a simple
> > controller and dc/dc design that I can build myself, if something
goes wrong, I
> > can easily fix it myself.
>
> Sounds like what you want is a 3-step contactor controller. It's
hardly
> elegant, but it's utterly straightforward. They've been around as
long as
> EVs, since long before transistors were invented. You can build or
fix one
> with basic electrical skills.
>
I was thinking of this, too, but he said he wanted to "build" his
controller, I was thinkg of the ecomony-sized coffee can full of dead
mosfets - series/parallel contactors are simply wiring and control
switches, so it's not only the cheapest way to go, but the simplest to
put together yourself and work out the control inputs. Forklift
graveyards would be a great place to scrounge for these components.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
G'day Jim, and All
At 10:10 PM 27/08/06 -0700, Jim Husted wrote:
Hey Everyone
<snip> I felt that Tim was going to finish reverse with no problem with
the princess occupied. Tim worked through out the day as did most getting
ready for the ride to PIR.
So how did John do reverse in Zombie? Did he go with the
tried-and-not-so-true reversing contactors that he had trouble with before,
or do something less conventional?
C'mon, wanna know...
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
setup:
I have a 120 volt nominal traction pack consisting of ten flooded,
two hundred amp hour, deep cycle batteries in a single string. I now
have two chargers.
1. 240 volt single phase that puts out 120 volts at 30 amps.
2. gang charger of ten, 12 volt chargers at 12 amps each.
Question:
What is the equivalent amperage in the gang charger? Is it just 12
amps or is it 120 amps?
When using the 30 amp, does each battery get 30 amps or just 3?
11 months at this and I am STILL just learning batteries.
R. Matt Milliron
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
1981 Jet Electrica.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
With a SepEx control on my SepEx motor I would just mach the ARM
current by 10%, so if the ARM is 300A you would supply 30A to the field.
During regen, you put a potbox on the brake and supply up to 50A to the firld.
If you want to regen to 0 below 7mph then you have to turn the control into
a boost converter with upper fets added like Curtis (but their control is very
complicated to program with atracted complexity).
BTW, I havn't ran with an aux battery for years, just put a center tapped 30A
breaker with a diode bridge somalert for DC ground fault and have a battery
tap for emergencies
and run with a 14V DC converter with schottky diode twin as a high current
OR gate.
Another BTW, with regards to Todd DC converters or chargers, add a CL-40 in
series with the
input. Keystone makes a large variety of inrush surge protectors & can
check the specs with www.alliedelec.com or similar.
Cheers,
Mark
Date:
Sat, 26 Aug 2006 11:51:52 +1000 To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu From: "James
Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Motor Current vs Battery Ratio
Plain Text Attachment [ Scan and Save to Computer | Save to Yahoo! Briefcase ]
At 10:13 AM 25/08/06 -0700, Mark wrote: > I was curious about the field
voltage and current ratio to battery > current. I ran my motor (7" Schaef
36V Hyster pump) with the Cushman > rear wheels lifted & at braking at 300
amps I saw 4.5V across the field > with a 72V source. With the lights out
I could see occasional flashing > or sparking on the comm at 300A. (Maybe
advancing the timing might help > that, not sure). > At 200A the field
was 3V and at 100A 1.5V. So when I make a SepEx > control I'll have to match
the same field power level. G'day Mark, and all "So when I make a SepEx
control" (!) What are your plans for your Sepex? Low voltage high current,
or rewind the fields and go high voltage low current? I've thought a few
times about what it would take to change a series motor to SepEx, and what
to control it with. The choices seem to be either a) rewind the field for
high voltage/low current to achieve the same
ampere-turns for the characteristics desired, or b) use the technology used
in inverter welders (perhaps even the 'guts' of an inverter welder) to drive
the field. Sepex to me would seem to be the ideal way for EV drag racers -
With a Zilla on the armature to keep things under control, maximum field off
the line, then once the Zilla signals that it is out of current limit,
start to back off the field - Zilla goes back into current limit & interrupt
the backing off. Maximizing torque all the way. Then maybe run a fixed
field setting for on road. So, Mark, spill the beans, what are you
planning?
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Could this be used in a motor controller?
http://www.surplussalesco.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=16
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 2:56 AM
Subject: Re: Building a controller yourself
> If I get a simple
> controller and dc/dc design that I can build myself, if something
goes wrong, I
> can easily fix it myself.
Sounds like what you want is a 3-step contactor controller. It's
hardly
elegant, but it's utterly straightforward. They've been around as
long as
EVs, since long before transistors were invented. You can build or
fix one
with basic electrical skills.
I was thinking of this, too, but he said he wanted to "build" his
controller, I was thinkg of the ecomony-sized coffee can full of dead
mosfets - series/parallel contactors are simply wiring and control
switches, so it's not only the cheapest way to go, but the simplest to
put together yourself and work out the control inputs. Forklift
graveyards would be a great place to scrounge for these components.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Matthew,
The 240 volt charger, charges at 30 amp through all the batteries which are
in series, while the voltage is 120/10 = 12 volts plus at each battery.
In a series circuit, the ampere is the same while the voltage drops equally
if all components are at the same value in resistance or/and wattage.
The ten 12 volt charger, charges at 12 amps each, is a parallel circuit,
which the voltage and ampere is the same at each battery.
Therefore 10 x 12 amps would be 120 amps if each battery charger was
charging at the maximum amp all at the same time.
This is like turning on ten lamps in you home, which is a parallel circuit.
If each lamp uses 1 amp, than you will have 1 amp x 10 = 10 amps at 120
volts each.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew Milliron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 5:59 AM
Subject: charging question
> setup:
> I have a 120 volt nominal traction pack consisting of ten flooded,
> two hundred amp hour, deep cycle batteries in a single string. I now
> have two chargers.
>
> 1. 240 volt single phase that puts out 120 volts at 30 amps.
> 2. gang charger of ten, 12 volt chargers at 12 amps each.
>
> Question:
> What is the equivalent amperage in the gang charger? Is it just 12
> amps or is it 120 amps?
> When using the 30 amp, does each battery get 30 amps or just 3?
>
> 11 months at this and I am STILL just learning batteries.
>
> R. Matt Milliron
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
> My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
> electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
> 1981 Jet Electrica.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 28 Aug 2006 at 6:59, Matthew Milliron wrote:
> 11 months at this and I am STILL just learning batteries.
What you need to learn is basic electricity! ;-)
In series, voltage adds and current stays the same. So your batteries are
seeing 12 volts and (depending on charger) 12 amps and 30 amps each.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ - the former contact address
([EMAIL PROTECTED]) will soon disappear.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Storm Connors wrote:
> I'm converting and 87 Suzuki Samurai. It weighs about 2000 pounds
> plus the batteries are gross vehicle weight is 2923 pounds it has
> a 9 inch ADC motor and a DCP600 controller. I have pretty well
> settled on 16 8v batteries...
That's a pretty big motor and controller for such a small vehicle. Are
you planning to make it into a sports car? :-)
600 amp current draws will murder the 8v batteries very quickly. If you
expect them to last, you have to keep the current under 300a. 6v
batteries won't like it either; you should keep them below 400a.
> I don't want to go with the 6 V because it gets too heavy for
> the car.
Battery pack weight is what determines your range; not voltage. The same
total weight of 6v, 8v, or 12v batteries will give you the same range.
Pack voltage only matters relative to the motor and controller used. A
low-voltage pack, with a low-voltage high-current controller and motor
will have the same speed and accelleration as a high-voltage pack,
controller and motor.
Since you chose a big, high-current motor and controller, you could use
16 6v batteries (96v pack) and still have a very zippy EV.
> All was going well until I read the recent posts raving about the
> Hawkers... the idea of using 10 or 12 of them is real appealing.
They are expensive, but able to deliver higher currents for their size.
Calendar life is long, but driving life (total miles per pack) is short.
They are easily damaged by crude chargers and not having a battery
management system. Figure on Hawkers costing you 4 times the cost of
floodeds; 3x for the batteries themselves, plus the extra cost of the
charging and balancing equipment.
> I am not hung up on range. 30 miles should be plenty. Since a
> dozen Odysseys would weigh 900 pounds and 16 8V would run about
> 1088 pounds, and since the voltage would go from 128 to 144,
> I guess the range would stay about the same and performance
> should be a little better.
Using your numbers, you'd be going from 1088/(2000+1088) = 35% batteries
to 900/(900+2000) = 31% batteries. That will reduce your range from
perhaps 35 miles to 30 miles -- it should still work.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
William Padgett wrote:
> Is there a reliable conversion between electric motor power and ICE
> power? Or is it the same?
No, there is not. While the mechanical definition of horsepower is the
same, ICE and electric motor horsepowers are rated under totally
different conditions.
ICE manufacturers give you the absolute peak horsepower, obtainable for
one instant, with everything optimized to produce the biggest number
possible.
Electric motors generally give you the continuous-duty horsepower, that
the motor can produce for hours on end.
The other confusion factor is that an electric motor behaves more like a
transmission. It simply converts whatever (electrical) power you put in
into (mechanical) power out, at some basic efficiency. The supply
voltage and controller current determine the power input, and thus the
motor's power output -- not the motor itself. So, and electric moto's
"horsepower" only makes sense when they also specify the voltage and
current.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark McCurdy wrote:
> the controller doesn't have to be top of the line...
> just needs to be dependable. If I get a simple controller and
> dc/dc design that I can build myself, if something goes wrong,
> I can easily fix it myself.
There's a lot of merit to this approach. It's the only way (today) that
you will have an EV that costs less than an ICE.
For building your own, start with a series motor and contactor
controller. Simple, inexpensive, and dependable if you build it right.
There are lots of examples of 100-year-old EVs still running on their
stock controllers. Try to do *that* with modern electronics! :-)
For the DC/DC, just use an automotive alternator, directly coupled to
the traction motor. Cheap, simple, and dependable. If it ever breaks,
it's trivial to fix it.
> Maybe they'll have cheap transportation by then, I don't know,
> but I'm not going to take the chance. I'll get me a dependable
> electric vehicle now and worry a lot less about the future.
If the auto companies ever do produce EVs, you can bet they won't be
cheap or simple. That's not their way!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It isn't all that hard to keep from blowing up batteries.
Lee Hart came up with a great "Bat Bridge" circuit years ago that is
very effective in preventing battery fires and preventing burst
batteries. It is some resistors and a few LEDs. Dead simple. Works great.
This circuit compares the voltage of each half of the pack. If there
is a big difference in the voltage, it lights an LED. Works great in
predicting a battery failure before it happens and then flags a
battery failure when it actually happens (and before it bursts or
catches fire.)
With a simple addition, you can have it switch over a Zilla into
"valet" mode to cut back the current automatically. Allows you to
limp home without causing a fire or a burst battery.
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 28 Aug 2006 at 7:27, Roland Wiench wrote:
> Therefore 10 x 12 amps would be 120 amps if each battery charger was
> charging at the maximum amp all at the same time.
I think this analysis is likely to cloud the issue. The post was asking
about the battery current. While the >input< current from the household
power supply to the chargers is additive, the battery current is still a
maximum of 12 amps in each battery.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jeff and all,
I am gonna straighten out the lines, remove the tee'd off 1/4" circuit
for the now dead vicor and see it the swiftech 350 is enough for the
zilla 1K alone.
The Swiftech MCP350 pump *seems* like the perfect pump for Zilla liquid
cooling with the 3/8" inlets/outlets. However, when putting together a
liquid cooling kit package, I passed by this pump in favor of the Laing
D4. A few reasons: the 350 specifies a maximum voltage of 13.2V. Also,
the 350 electronics do not come potted. One other thing - if you wanted
to use it as a dual-purpose Zilla/PFC-40L (liquid cooled) pump, the 350
would not be sufficient.
BTW, the Laing D4 is very similar to the Swiftech MCP655. The 655 is
actually the Laing D5 pump which has adjustable output. I've gone with
the D4 because of manufacturing problems Laing had trying to pot the pot
(potentiometer). They haven't given up on it, but it's not yet
available. The adjustable output would be nice. I also get the brass
head instead of the Noryl so the liquid temperature can exceed 140
degrees F.
You can see the pump for sale here:
http://www.evsource.com/tls_cooling.php
The D4 isn't cheap and it is probably overkill for just Zilla cooling.
But it meets all my requirements - water resistant, sufficient (overly)
output, easy to mount, 12-24V operation, fairly compact, and quiet. It
has also been proven in vehicle environments. Often, we get in the
search for a cheap solution, but I've found that usually the cheap
options don't have all the desired features. This can lead to problems
down the road.
Let me know if you have any questions about any of this.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Summer Special - Free or reduced shipping on all orders over $500!
Includes Zillas, WarP and Impulse Motors, and PFC Chargers
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you want to make serious one at "low" cost start with this one (150V400A)
i put it on my webpages, it works and with ebay (for IGBT modules) it can be
made at really cheap price:
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/racingcontroller.html
Extracted of Motor control electronics hand book by Richard valentine...
I have just this part of the book, i'm still looking for the book or a copy
if it's not available anymore, if someone can help i would appreciate.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: Building a controller yourself
> Could this be used in a motor controller?
> http://www.surplussalesco.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=16
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 2:56 AM
> Subject: Re: Building a controller yourself
>
>
> >> > If I get a simple
> >> > controller and dc/dc design that I can build myself, if something
> > goes wrong, I
> >> > can easily fix it myself.
> >>
> >> Sounds like what you want is a 3-step contactor controller. It's
> > hardly
> >> elegant, but it's utterly straightforward. They've been around as
> > long as
> >> EVs, since long before transistors were invented. You can build or
> > fix one
> >> with basic electrical skills.
> >>
> >
> > I was thinking of this, too, but he said he wanted to "build" his
> > controller, I was thinkg of the ecomony-sized coffee can full of dead
> > mosfets - series/parallel contactors are simply wiring and control
> > switches, so it's not only the cheapest way to go, but the simplest to
> > put together yourself and work out the control inputs. Forklift
> > graveyards would be a great place to scrounge for these components.
> >
> >
> >
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey all
Didn't have a lot of time this morning but got some pics up to see. There
isn't a blog yet with a direct link but I made a new album for NEDRA EVENTS. I
have most of my pics there but not all. Just thought Id throw something out
for you to feed on 8^ )
Anyway I have to get moving here so I don't have time for anything more this
morning.
Have a look here, hope you enjoy
http://hitorqueelectric.com/gallery/v/NEDRA+pictures/
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Book needs rescanned at a higher resolution since it's impossible to read
parts of the schematics, text is too bold, the numbers/letters bleed into
each other :o(
Tried blowing it up some, didn't help.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 8:59 AM
Subject: Re: Building a controller yourself
If you want to make serious one at "low" cost start with this one (150V400A)
i put it on my webpages, it works and with ebay (for IGBT modules) it can be
made at really cheap price:
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/racingcontroller.html
Extracted of Motor control electronics hand book by Richard valentine...
I have just this part of the book, i'm still looking for the book or a copy
if it's not available anymore, if someone can help i would appreciate.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: Building a controller yourself
Could this be used in a motor controller?
http://www.surplussalesco.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=16
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 2:56 AM
Subject: Re: Building a controller yourself
>> > If I get a simple
>> > controller and dc/dc design that I can build myself, if something
> goes wrong, I
>> > can easily fix it myself.
>>
>> Sounds like what you want is a 3-step contactor controller. It's
> hardly
>> elegant, but it's utterly straightforward. They've been around as
> long as
>> EVs, since long before transistors were invented. You can build or
> fix one
>> with basic electrical skills.
>>
>
> I was thinking of this, too, but he said he wanted to "build" his
> controller, I was thinkg of the ecomony-sized coffee can full of dead
> mosfets - series/parallel contactors are simply wiring and control
> switches, so it's not only the cheapest way to go, but the simplest to
> put together yourself and work out the control inputs. Forklift
> graveyards would be a great place to scrounge for these components.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Book needs rescanned at a higher resolution since it's impossible to read
> parts of the schematics, text is too bold, the numbers/letters bleed into
> each other :o(
That's odd. It looks fine to me. Is you browser resizing the gif's to fit in
the window?
If so, it does get pretty small on the font.
> I have just this part of the book, i'm still looking for the book or a copy
> if it's not
> available anymore, if someone can help i would appreciate.
Amazon has it.
http://tinyurl.com/hnlrj
--
joe
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
OK, it's Monday 5:57 am...cobwebs are clearing, the day after day 3 of a
crazed weekend of racing and fellowship with the best of friends.
In response to Jim Husted's first part of his Late Night Nationals post,
James Massey wrote:
So how did John do reverse in Zombie? Did he go with the
tried-and-not-so-true reversing contactors that he had trouble with
before, or do something less conventional?
C'mon, wanna know...
James has been great helping me with ideas on the best way to reverse
the not-so- conventional motor & contactor setup in my car, so I want to
thank him for all his support. In the end, I went back to the way I had
done it two years ago, only in a much more aggressive design. To
clarify, I reverse the front motor section only while the rear motor
section is off line and is just along for the ride. Here's how it gets
done...
Much to my not wanting to do so, I replaced the beefy 4/0 external
field-to-armature cable connection (~ 1ft. long) on the front motor
section, with two short 4/0 cables and an SW200 Albright contactor with
a single set of contact tips normally open (NO), the same model as the
three I use for the series/parallel switchers. The racer in me was
convinced the added extra set of high current contacts would add too
much resistance and negatively affect the car's performance at the drag
strip. When you're hunting 100ths of a second, even small losses affect
things.
Fast forward to this weekend's runs...the car ran 12.3 ETs, the same as
before the reverse mods, so I'm happy to report that I was wrong :-),
and boy is it sa-weeeet! Flip a switch, and it silently goes the other way!
Back to the reversing project...In my car's original design, I wanted to
avoid using the array of F-R type contactor sets used for series,
parallel, forward and reverse (times two) as is the norm for a Zilla
equipped EV that takes advantage of its ability to drive twin motors.
From my extensive experience with forklift contactors, I've learned
that despite claims from contactor manufacturers to the contrary, the
F-R contactors burn their normally closed tips that rely on spring
pressure much worse, than their normally open tips that are closed under
high pressure via the magnetic pull of the contactor coil. In White
Zombie running at 2000 amps, all those spring-closed tip sets add up to
unwanted problems. Thus, the way I wire the sections of my Siamese 8
requires just three single pole type contactors (NO tips) to accomplish
the series and parallel modes. For the series mode, just on SW200 slams
shut and connects the motor sections in line for the high torque series
configuration launch mode. To switch to parallel, the series contactor
opens and a pair of parallel SW200s slam shut connecting the motor
sections across each other for the parallel configuration max hp top end
mode. Simple, and no NC spring pressure contact tips, and just three
easy to see and easy to replace NO contact tip sets, and after two years
in service they look almost as new still! To continue...with the 4th
SW200 inserted between the field and armature of the front motor
section's field-to-armature series connection, with it energized and
pulled in I can still operate the Siamese 8 motor as I had been doing,
or, by opening this 'field contactor', the front motor section can now
be reconfigured for reverse via a set of 300 amp GE single pole NO
contactors. These are the same heavy duty contactors I had installed and
experimented with for field weakening. Yes, in the forward direction
series mode of operation, the Siamese 8 now has two SW200 Albright
contactors to loop the 2000 amps through instead of just one, but when I
looked at the tip condition of the series mode contactor and saw they
had not burned at all the last two years in service, I figured there
must not be all that much resistance to worry about, and the results
from this weekend's runs backs this up.
Soooo...that's how reverse was accomplished, at least from the high
current high voltage path perspective. The other 'control logic' circuit
is a whole 'nuther story! I wanted to use the Hairball's great set of
convenience and safety features, especially the 'roll detect' circuit
Otmar built into its design (inspired by yours truly back in the
formative days of the Hairball) that prevents catastrophic reversing of
the motors during an apposing direction under detectable rpm. I also
wanted a true 'Neutral' direction position with the dash mounted three
position toggle switch, so that nothing can run when the switch is in
neutral. I also wanted all the fault code options intact....etc. etc.
The high current reversing wiring was actually completed a week ago and
had been tested in a crude 'disconnect all these wires, hook up all
these' wheels off the ground trial operation. The control logic job was
intense and required lots of new wire looms, a lot more relays, more
switches, a new bracket, and more stuff too boring to keep listing. Tim
Brehm and Chris Brune literally sweated through a day long under-hood
ordeal getting it ready for racing Friday night while I hung out on the
shaded deck sipping lemonade through an interview with Car and Driver's
Ted West. Thanks to both of these guys for taking on the challenge and
taking the pressure off me.
In the end, it all worked as planned.....oh yeah, there 'was' that
little glitch of frying 25 amp fuse! Seems the last minute snubber we
installed across the reversing contactor coils couldn't handle the
inductive kick-back and failed in a shorted condition! Once we figured
that out though, reverse was available at the mere flip of a
switch...beautiful!
See Ya....John Wayland
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