EV Digest 5805
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: motor HP relation to ICE HP
by William Padgett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: better search solution?
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EV grin is back! - AR EV's
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Building a controller yourself
by "EV2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: A note on potentiometers
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) "I won't be drag racing..."
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Danger den magII water pump
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Batteries
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Just watched my video
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Homebrew Segway - OSMC
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Radio's? WAS Re: I don't need a dc-dc converter
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Crushing EVs like in WKTEC: (Nissan Hyperminis gone)
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Building a controller yourself
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RPM Team Status Report
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Battery cooling (was: Re: 06 NEDRA Late Nite Nationals)
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Crushing EVs like in WKTEC: (Nissan Hyperminis gone)
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Building a controller yourself
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Variac on 240vac?
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Building a controller yourself
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: RPM Team Status Report
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Battery cooling (was: Re: 06 NEDRA Late Nite Nationals)
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Capturing Zilla data at the drag strip
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Lee, for the elaboration.
Scott Padgett
http://wscottpadgett.com
___________________
On Aug 28, 2006, at 11:46 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
William Padgett wrote:
Is there a reliable conversion between electric motor power and ICE
power? Or is it the same?
No, there is not. While the mechanical definition of horsepower is the
same, ICE and electric motor horsepowers are rated under totally
different conditions.
ICE manufacturers give you the absolute peak horsepower, obtainable
for
one instant, with everything optimized to produce the biggest number
possible.
Electric motors generally give you the continuous-duty horsepower,
that
the motor can produce for hours on end.
The other confusion factor is that an electric motor behaves more
like a
transmission. It simply converts whatever (electrical) power you
put in
into (mechanical) power out, at some basic efficiency. The supply
voltage and controller current determine the power input, and thus the
motor's power output -- not the motor itself. So, and electric moto's
"horsepower" only makes sense when they also specify the voltage and
current.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
> But these return "digests" that have what I searched for and no good
way to
> follow the threads. And if I search for 2 words it gets worse.
>
> I am quite interested in building an ev and have many (many, many)
questions
> that Im sure have all been answered on this list.
>
Go to http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/ and use the
search option - will show entries back for several years.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
oh...
crud...
should have hung around, hehe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: EV grin is back! - AR EV's
Mark,
I lived in Greenwood, AR from 1996 to 2000.
I had my 1984 Electric Fiero at the time along with
my golf cart,
My Fiero after I sold it to Jim pictured in my
driveway in Akron, OH
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/264
I sold it to Jim for $800 and he put a little work
into it including batteries. He sold it to Zap
in CA
http://www.zapworld.com/cars/salecars.asp
but they must have sold it (they were asking
$11,000!!!!) I wonder what somebody actually bought it
for?
My golf cart pictured in my driveway in Akron, OH
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/265
I bought this at a golf cart place in Fort Smith
for $200 and traded them a Curtis control and a
battery charger.
I upgraded it to a 400A Curtis control and Saft NiCd
batteries. I bought fancy rims and tires from
www.evparts.com
I worked at Baldor Motors and Drives while living in
AR.
Rod
W8RNH
--- Mark McCurdy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Only problem with trying to find abandoned is I'm in
the Fort Smith AR area,
never heard of anyone near me working on an EV let
alone abandoning one,
hehe
Hoping to get a cheap controller off ebay, couple of
prospects there (hope
to win, would save me quite a bit of
money/time/trouble)
Was planning on putting off the DC/DC anyway, if I
couldn't find a low cost
one.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: EV grin is back!
>I agree with Roger here, I was going to say about
the same thing..
> DC/DC is not required. Controller, forget making
your own, you'd destroy
> more $ testing it than it cost to buy a used one.
Charger, if really
> pressed, use a cheap 6-12v charger and charge each
battery individually.
> Might find used batteries too to get the car
going.
> Frankly, I'd try to find a used vehicle conversion
that has been
> abandoned, might get most of the parts.
> Jack
>
> Roger Stockton wrote:
>> Mark McCurdy wrote:
>>>I've started buying stuff and was looking for
advice on a controller. I
>>>will proably be getting a 9" ADC motor
>>>(4001A maybe) and was wanting a cheap controller
(scarse
>>>cash) anyone got one in the US that will handle
up to 120volts/500-600
>>>amps max?
>>
>>
>> I would suggest looking for a GE EV-1 controller
removed from a Jet
>> Industries conversion (e.g. Electrica 007, etc.).
This controller
>> handles up to 144V and delivers 450A. You ought
to be able to find one
>> in good working condition for less than $100-200
from someone who has
>> upgraded their EV to a more modern controller
such as a Curtis.
>>
>>
>>>I've ordered some runman 2B battery regulator
PCBs and instructions to
>>>assemble as practice.
>>
>>
>>>I will probably get a PFC20 charger so it can be
connected
>>>to the regulators, battery pack life is a major
concern,
>>>but I don't want to (can't, really, unless I want
to take 2 years paying)
>>>pay retail for a controller or DC/DC
>>
>>
>> I'm a bit confused by this; you make it clear
that you are on a budget
>> yet you are buying regulators and a (relatively)
expensive charger.
>>
>> If battery life and penny pinching are both
concerns, then you should be
>> planning on using flooded 6V golf cart batteries,
which are the cheapest
>> to operate, and have fairly simple charge
requirements. They do not
>> require regulators; regs may reduce water usage
somewhat, however, this
>> is just going to affect how often you need to
check the water levels and
>> top up the batteries.
>>
>> You can also get by with a simpler, less costly
charger when using
>> flooded batteries. The PFC20 is a good product,
and has the advantage
>> of being able to plug into either 120VAC or
240VAC, however, for the
>> usage pattern you describe this probably isn't a
particular advantage.
>> You are only planning on very short trips, and a
pack of 6V floodeds
>> will last years in this sort of usage and have
lots of additional
>> capacity onhand should you need to run some
unforseen errands between
>> charges. In short, you would not likely be
benefiting from the quicker
>> recharge times that the PFC20 could offer when
fed 240VAC since you
>> would likely not need to charge except at home
overnight.
>>
>> Chargers are much simpler than controllers, so if
you were going to
>> build something, I'd suggest putting the PFC20
money into a controller
>> (perhaps a Curtis 1231C given your modest
performance requirements) and
>> building your own charger instead.
>>
>> As for the DC/DC, if money is really that tight,
just run a 12V battery
>> and no DC/DC. Yes, it has all of the drawbacks
mentioned recently on
>> the list, but it is certainly doable, especially
if you are looking at
>> driving only 10mi a day (perhaps 45min-1hr total
commute time?). DC/DCs
>> (Iota, Todd, etc.) are only a couple of hundred
dollars, so if you can't
>> afford one right away, don't sweat it; run a 12V
battery alone and add
>> the DC/DC when funds permit.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Roger.
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What if you had a make before break on the sliding contacts and the group of
batteries were shorted out momentarily with a controlled means and the motor
would never know there was an abrubt change of voltage and there would be no
arching.
Alex
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: Building a controller yourself
How did the early electric cars handle the controller issue? I know they
used voltage switching, series, parallel and such, but since the didn't
use actual solenoid type contactors, how did they work? Sliding contacts
or some such? Could such a thing be built at home today? How do you
prevent arcing?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
While it appears clear that the pot they use is not particularly
long-lived in an on-road vehicle when subjected to the elements, this
does not mean it is an inappropriate part for the intended application,
which is primarily material handling equipment used indoors.
Exactly right Roger. So Curtis is fine, it's the hobbyists then,
who use their product for non-intended application and then
complain that it is of poor quality.
I know, expensive doesn't always means good, but really
good is nearly always [more] expensive if purchased normally
(not as surplus, closeouts, discontinued, and other
good but unpredictable findings only hobbyists can explore).
'Course there are exceptions, but as with everything,
general trend is very clear. Better things should, expected,
and do cost more.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I see this phrase a lot when people are talking about controllers and
motors. I kinda wonder though if it might take the same amps to move a
heavy full commute ready vehicle as a full race ready sedan at times.
Lets face it, the white zombie probably weighs less than most rollers
before conversion! Add that most people don't put in such a high voltage
pack and so they will pull even more amps. In day to day normal driving
I bet the zombie gets 200wh/mile or less. John ??
Realistically they pull more amps AND weigh less, but my point is not
to under size your controller. If the controller maxes at 400 amps and
you use 400 amps all the time it will probably have a shorter life than
a 1000A controller putting out 400 amps daily. It is not like you can
add 400 more amps later, you have to buy the whole controller over again.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, here is the real problem with this pump(the MCP350)
I don't know why but any air and it looses prime, even when the tank is
2" above it, it will cavitate and stop flowing, instant thermal
shutdown! Even with the line full of water if air builds up in the pump
it is all over. It is strange. I was roadside today tipping the tank
adding water and most importantly shutting it on and off to get the air
out. Once purged it seemed ok, but I want to hook up the notebook and
collect some real data.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Or how about going with 16 Deka 9A31's or other Group 31 size battery at ~69 lb
each. Then your performance would be smoking, and
if you took it easy on the accelerator your range could still be very near the
same. Although you'll give up life cycles for the
performance of the Gels or AGM's. But it might make your point to go to flooded
12V batteries, if the decreases current can be
offset by the higher voltage. the problem here is that you could push youself
into the higher voltage rated controller.
Mike.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Storm Connors
> Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 6:10 PM
> To: List EV
> Subject: Batteries
>
>
> Lee sez that range is primarily determined by the
> weight of the batteries, and I agree with that.
>
> >From US battery, the 8VGC battery weighs 69 lbs, the
> 6V US125 weighs 67 lbs. Assuming they were equal in
> weight, I would think that 16 8v would be better than
> 16 6v in that the amperage would be kept lower. The
> range would be a wash, but I would think the vehicle
> would have better performance. Am I missing something?
>
>
> It must be frustrating getting the same questions
> repeatedly from newbies. Trying to get answers from
> the archives is difficult- I'd say impossible based on
> my experience. So thank you to those who keep at the education.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all
Well I just watched my video with my wife and I was able to catch some fairly
good stuff for low res. I have the awards presentation as well as some Ted
West after race stuff and of course Wayland. I have a great clip of him
shouting at the camera about Ted West of "Car and Driver" doing a 12.3 in an
electric car, take that gas people, or something to that fact. John you're
gonna love it it's great ( you proud pappa) 8^ )
I have some footage of Daves car that night as well as some Goldie and Poppy
runs. I wasn't always able to run up to catch the guys but I tried. I've
never converted video so I'll copy everything I have and get it to John on my
next run. Anyway I just thought I'd let you guys know that I have some stuff
for desert, hehe.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Many of us used the OSMC's to power our bots to multiple Champion and
National Champion Combat Robotics (Battlebots) events.
Several other folks took the designs and are selling their own versions
successfully all over the world. It was an awesome group project that
really took off!
Mike
--- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> For those interested OSMC is open source motor control
> group on yahoo.
> Their description is;
> "This mail list is intended to maintain a discussion
> of design issues affecting the Open Source Motor
> Controller Project. The hardware design in this
> project will be open to anyone to build and experiment
> with. We welcome hobbiests and professionals alike to
> discuss the problems and solutions of building a
> reliable PMDC motor controller. For more information,
> see the project site at www.dmillard.com/osmc."
>
> There are many open source motor control designs there
> including my 3 phase BLDC control.
>
> Rod
> W8RNH
> --- Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Awesome! I have a whole bunch of OSMC and MOB boards
> > around here. Cool
> > project.
> >
> > That fellow must be from the OSMC group eh?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/meta/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Here's to the crazy ones.
> > The misfits.
> > The rebels.
> > The troublemakers.
> > The round pegs in the square holes.
> > The ones who see things differently
> > The ones that change the world!!
> >
> > www.RotorDesign.com
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland, what are you doing? Schuman Reasonance Testing?
The only comm cabling I have in my truck is the Cat5 cable from the Hairball to
the Zilla with the appropriate ferrite ring in the
middle. My AM radio (thats all I listen too) works perfectly except when I'm
both in a parking garage and its raining outside.
Otherwise I get a weak ~15k- 20k hz squeal if the station isn't tuned in on
peak. Mind you these are all local stations and I
imagine if I caught a weak signal from Southeast Alaska it would probably be
destroyed by the controller's splatter.
The PFC20 is noisy. Rich says so himself. What else can I say except that I
don't drive with it powered. And the only thing in
the house affected is the hiss in the Baby Monitor. Which actually works out
good. I found a place to put the monitor where the
hiss is not so annoying, and when the charger shuts off I'm notified with the
blast of quiet that ensues. I can then go down and
unplug it. I can readily tell the difference between the scream of a waking
baby and the splatter of the charger.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Roland Wiench
> Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 8:26 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Radio's? WAS Re: I don't need a dc-dc converter
>
>
> I don't understand. That's that first time in a long time, I said that.
>
> I can get AM FM GM or any of XM clear as a bell in my EV or in my house when
> my PFC-50B running wide open.
>
> Maybe it's the high elevation or I keep the humidity above 50 percent at
> all times.
>
> It could be that all my home and building wiring is all industrial wiring,
> which is all shield in steel conduit.
>
> It also could be that I have several grounding planes, which I one grounding
> rod for each panel, another one for the plumbing, another one for the
> communications, and one ground cup connection in the concrete floor in the
> shop/garage, that I use for for my experimentation in ground frequency
> testing.
>
> It could be that in my EV, I have a grounding type counter poise system that
> loops around the car and all my control and comm wires are double shield
> with only the outside shield ground at one end and the inner shields are
> floating.
>
> It could be that the motor, controller, batteries, battery charger and the
> AC input power are all isolated from the frame and body of the car.
>
> The only buzz I get is when I drive under very high voltage power lines
> which are above 50KV.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 9:01 AM
> Subject: Radio's? WAS Re: I don't need a dc-dc converter
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Martin K" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 10:10 AM
> > Subject: Re: I don't need a dc-dc converter
> >
> >
> > > The problem with a boost converter at low output current is the ripple.
> > > Not so much of a problem when you're charging a battery, but becomes
> > > very noisy when you're trying to do something like power an AM radio.
> > > --
> > > Martin K
> >
> > > AM Radio?? Hah! Forgetaboutit! With all the electrical NOISE in a home
> > made EV, you're damn lucky to EVen GET FM, if it is a good strong
> > station.Or
> > if ya wanna watch Channel 3 with yuor PFC plugged in while charging. Wierd
> > lines across the screen, FM radio hissy, on ALL stations. The Good Folks
> > at
> > Toyota took care of all these issues as you can listen to PBS classical
> > music while being wafted along at 75 MPH, 30-40 [EMAIL PROTECTED] volts, on
> > the
> > freeway., in your RAV-4. I don't remember IF the radio worked in the EV-1?
> > I
> > was too enchanted by the OTHER cool sounds it made<g>!I'm sure on a trans
> > continental trip I would like some 'toons though?
> >
> > My two channels worth
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would bet next paycheck on the "quiet background actions taken by
Oil/Automakers to keep small EV companies small". However its
hard to keep small startups from starting up, but easy to keep them from
getting bigger. Just think if thousands of small startup
EV conversion companies started putting out 5-10 cars a year. Every conversion
on the road is free advertising and so are happy
enthusiastic owners. To bring the big ones down it would have to be death by a
thousand cuts. Perhaps the EAA, Plug In America
and the like could offer some sort of meaningful challange to states who boast
large EV registration numbers, or some poo poo to
those who make it difficult for owners to register. Some states who are proud
of their efforts in promoting road goin EV's should
be bragging to the states that are lagging behind. I'd help anyone criticize my
state if they in fact made it difficult to
register my truck. (in fact they were surprisingly easy, will post that story
under separate topic) I'm wondering if CARB is
reconsidering some other form of sanctions for dirty, wasteful products?
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
bruce parmenter wrote
>
> I hope Mike's POST on this topic is right, but having lived through
> seeing the huge amount of Oil/Automaker money spent to Kill EVs in
> the 90's CARB mandate days, I am concerned there might be quiet
> background actions taken by Oil/Automakers to keep small EV
> companies small.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> What if you had a make before break on the sliding contacts and the
group of
> batteries were shorted out momentarily with a controlled means and
the motor
> would never know there was an abrubt change of voltage and there
would be no
> arching.
> Alex
>
Make-before-break in a series-parallel setup? Isn't that a recipe for
maximum arcing (i.e. short circuit)?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folks
FT, Rick True, and myself have all made it to a motel within 30 minutes of
Indianapolis in less than 44 hours after leaving Portland without incident.
It is definitely nice not to have to keep rollin' for a while.
We will load in the White Zombie and Dragon Rose at the trade show site
tomorrow.
All in all, not a bad cross-country run across the USA :^D
Will post updates when I can.
...
Roy LeMeur
NEDRA NW Regional Director
www.nedra.com
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah but that one hot battery in the middle was probably putting out 120% and
performing sh#* hot. That one shoud get a
service-mans funeral. Way to take one for the team :-) When you're racing to
win you gotta push it. If you don't break anything
you aren't winning. Read back and notice they all report that as their
batteries warm up the times get better. Thats the point.
Now if you could make some sort of explosive shield on the back of the car such
that when the pack explodes you get the turbo jolt
from hell that pushes you over the line 2 seconds sooner :-O
Mike,
Anchorage.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote
> Can someone please tell me why seemingly noone with a high performance EV
> considers it important to keep their
> batteries from cooking under high load or charge?
<snip a bit>
> Example: The battery that Wayland let the smoke out of on Saturday was the
> one dead center in the pack. Similar
> perhaps for Otmar's Exide post delam...
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Willmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 12:56 AM
Subject: RE: Crushing EVs like in WKTEC: (Nissan Hyperminis gone)
> I would bet next paycheck on the "quiet background actions taken by
Oil/Automakers to keep small EV companies small". However its
> hard to keep small startups from starting up, but easy to keep them from
getting bigger. Just think if thousands of small startup
> EV conversion companies started putting out 5-10 cars a year. Every
conversion on the road is free advertising and so are happy
> enthusiastic owners. To bring the big ones down it would have to be death
by a thousand cuts. Perhaps the EAA, Plug In America
> and the like could offer some sort of meaningful challange to states who
boast large EV registration numbers, or some poo poo to
> those who make it difficult for owners to register. Some states who are
proud of their efforts in promoting road goin EV's should
> be bragging to the states that are lagging behind. I'd help anyone
criticize my state if they in fact made it difficult to
> register my truck. (in fact they were surprisingly easy, will post that
story under separate topic) I'm wondering if CARB is
> reconsidering some other form of sanctions for dirty, wasteful products?
>
> Mike,
> Anchorage, Ak.
>
>
> bruce parmenter wrote
> >
> > I hope Mike's POST on this topic is right, but having lived through
> > seeing the huge amount of Oil/Automaker money spent to Kill EVs in
> > the 90's CARB mandate days, I am concerned there might be quiet
> > background actions taken by Oil/Automakers to keep small EV
> > companies small.
> >
> Hi EVerybody;
You got THAT right. As small outfits start up, like Freedom EV, Dycus
Enterprises. Ya never heard of them, right. I can see if the Freedom Became
popular in say FLA where it is registered as a motorcycle. Jerry ran the
Lumbergini for YEARS as a Motorcycle. He slipped under the NHSTA radar, well
it WAS wood<g>! Lets see how Corrupticut handles registering a Few Feeedoms?
Like ya can't even HAVE a enclosed Motorcycle here, But it COULD be called a
Car?Sure as hell LOOKS like a car, to me.But if thios think catches on, the
Big 3 and more could demand that it do rather pricy crash tests? The Citicar
ran into this issue, too.
Trying to get to aome sort of point here? If the car LOOKS like it is
gunna do well, I'm SURE Eenough roadblocks will magicly appear, like the
silly EV charging stuff the Electrical Code people came up with.Bib Oil and
General Murders and Nissan, to mention a few. IF us Cottage Industry put out
ENOUGH EV's over the years? Or until a Regeme Change, or a ????????
My two Watts worth
Bob
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.6/429 - Release Date: 8/28/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: Building a controller yourself
> Joe Vitek wrote:
> >
> > > For building your own, start with a series motor and contactor
> > > controller. Simple, inexpensive, and dependable if you build it right.
> > Right on Lee!;
He EVerybody especially youse Newbees. Listen up, you CAN build a
cheepo EV that works. My first edition of my Rabbit was done on the cheap!
Had the car with a dying Diseasel, decent body. So it started as a "freebee"
Had to break down and buy a motor, no escaping that! So I hunted about anf
found a like new 9 inch ADC, Off the List, no less!. Found a good set of
used batteries, Trojan T105's for 20 bux a piece. Now I'm not like alota
guyz, was working for the RR in the shop, so that DID help in the procuring
parts dept. alota stuff you can use if the shop is working on Electric cars,
of the RR commuter viriety. When they scrapped a car I was there wrenches in
hand!Contactors, BIG asse diodes, wire, 2 ought is lite stuff on trains!
To get to the point the Controller? I built a Rectacter. Need ONE BIGGER
contacter, that is the line switch, and 6 big diodes, oh say 200 amp each,
and a 200 amp or so double throw, meaning two separate sets of contacts, and
another 200 amp or so single throw.You deviode your 120 volt battery pack
into 30 volt packs. Down side here is ya need a hellova lot of cable to run
8 leads into your controller box!The diodes are arranged so that the 30 volt
packs are in parallel, fed through the diodes. When Diodes work as intended,
they pass power in ONLY one direction<g>!This nice feature can give you a
nice "SteP' controller WITHOUT the momentery break of a regular series
parallel setup.To go, you pull in your line [EMAIL PROTECTED] volts. Off you go,
letting out the clutch in say second gear. Of course ya want to go faster,
so you switch the two pole in, shunting the batteries into series parallel,
they are feeding through the other 2 diodes, one on each 60 volt circuit,
Shift into 3rd if ya like, or go for 120 volts, the last contacter in line
pulls in and Voila! you are up in series! 120 volts and all yuor diodes are
OUT of the circuit, like think 100 % efficiency? Gear things to your taste.
The more gears in the tranny the better, as you are using them and the
clutch, to keep your tooth fillings intact! Sure can be lumpy as hell, to
just leave it in gear!This setup is the good old Westinghouse K-35 Streetcar
controller turned around backward as trolleys had 4 motors and ONE power
source. These were old hat when the Titanic went down! Interestingly enough
they back then, and Raush Lang, too used Drum controllers, WITH big ass Arc
Chutes, on the trollies. When you learn to run a 100 year old car, you are
told early on NOT to dawdle, snap briskly through the steps so as to NOT
burn up the contact fingers, If you drag through the points you ark the hell
out of the controller fingers, the spring loaded current carrying things. Go
visit a trolley museum, ask the guyz there, most likely volunteers, if they
would show ya a controller, INSIDE. Only takes a few seconds to knock off
the circuit breaker, over the motorman's head, open the nice varnished wood
box, swing it open, unlatch the arc chutes, they swing away like opening a
door, and there you are! Solid state at it's finast! That coffee grinder
handle turns things, as you can see. Many car controllers have several
speeds as they like to shunt resisters in to soften the start, and make the
steps smoother. Of course a RR car is so damn HEAVY, that is your "
flywheel" right there. old Streetcar motormen got quite good at running
efficiently, and smoothly, a seat of the pants sorta thing. You too, can
have this fun. RR Museums are always looking for a few good men, gals, too.
They have fun training programs, teach ya how they work and how to run for
the public.That was some of my early EV's back in my late teen deformative
years. " Welcome to the Branford Trolley Museum, the car you are riding was
built , in 1912 by the JG Brill Co of Philly PA, . Yada Yada Yada!<G>! RR
Museum guyz are a bit like the EV Listers that I'm talking at. Fun bunch! To
a budding EVer it is fun to wander through a museums Stuff, parts cars being
rebuilt and seeing how EV's were done 100 years ago.Show up in your EV and
be ready to do show-an'-tell!
You take on a new respect of your forfather's who designed and built
these EV people movers. Part of our heritage.Not only were they functional,
they were built with yacht like craftsmanship, stained glass, varnished fine
woods, gleaming brass fixtures, rattan or plush seats depending.Gees! For
what Metro North is paying nowadaze for new Commuter Cars you'd think they
would/ could, have some nice varnished wood brightwork? Sigh!
Back on topic;
> > I am going to try it..
> > Go for it Joe. A simple contacter thing will work for years. How good
are a scrounger are ya?
> > > There are lots of examples of 100-year-old EVs still running on their
> > > stock controllers. Try to do *that* with modern electronics! :-)
> >
> > Wow, I would love to see that stuff! I love vintage electronics.
Especially old tube
> > stuff...
>
> Amazingly enough, even vacuum tubes have a place in EVs. Tubes work fine
> as variable resistors for field control of sepex motors. A 12X4 tube can
> be used as a precharge controller. Old tech, but it worked! :-)
> -- Victrolas outlast the #$%^& CD players all to hell! A good one will
play 2 records on a " Charge" .......winding!
My two trollies worth.
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You and Lee sound like you have the same idea.
There is one alternative. I really want to initialize these new cells
all at the same time. Thus the request for a 240 Variac. But these
cells come in a stainless box of 19 cells each. I suppose I could take
my 4 nicad/nimh chargers and charge each group of 19 cells on one
charger. What I want to avoid is not having them all charge to the same
level. These are peak detecting chargers that I've used alot. They are
very consistant.
Logistically it would be easier to do 19 at a time. But since there is
no bms to peak them to the same voltage I wonder if I'll end up with an
unbalanced pack from the very first charge.
Mike
--- Mark Grasser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I run a 120 variac on my 240 volt bench. You simply run it on one
> line like
> it's supposed to be and then use the other line at it's strait up
> voltage.
> This way you have a variac that runs from ~120 to 240 as you turn the
>
> variac.
>
> Grasser
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 12:14 PM
> Subject: Variac on 240vac?
>
>
> >I have a couple standard Variacs with 120vac inputs. I'd like to
> know
> > if I can use one on 240vac at very low curren output, to put the
> > initialization charge on the BB600 nicads that should arrive soon.
> >
> > Will it smoke?
> >
> > Mike
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: Building a controller yourself
> > What if you had a make before break on the sliding contacts and the
> group of
> > batteries were shorted out momentarily with a controlled means and
> the motor
> > would never know there was an abrubt change of voltage and there
> would be no
> > arching.
> > Alex
> >
>
> Make-before-break in a series-parallel setup? Isn't that a recipe for
> maximum arcing (i.e. short circuit)?
> You Bet! Ya don't wanna short out the batteries!!Go" Rectacter'" design
and there ISN'T a dropping out of voltage when you speed up, Just steps
higher.
Bob
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.6/429 - Release Date: 8/28/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 1:10 AM
Subject: RPM Team Status Report
>
> Hi Folks
>
> FT, Rick True, and myself have all made it to a motel within 30 minutes of
> Indianapolis in less than 44 hours after leaving Portland without
incident.
>
> It is definitely nice not to have to keep rollin' for a while.
>
> We will load in the White Zombie and Dragon Rose at the trade show site
> tomorrow.
>
> All in all, not a bad cross-country run across the USA :^D
> That's for sure! Beat the hell out of Amtrak's times of the Empire
Builder! As the builder does, you didn't stop anywhere for long!
> Will post updates when I can.
> ...
> Be listnin' in! Good practice for Battery Beach Burnout in Jan. Probably
only another 20 hours to West Palm!
Seeya
Bob
>
>
>
> Roy LeMeur
> NEDRA NW Regional Director
> www.nedra.com
>
> My EV and RE Project Pages-
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
>
> Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.6/429 - Release Date: 8/28/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Yeah but that one hot battery in the middle was probably putting
> out 120% and performing sh#* hot. That one shoud get a
> service-mans funeral. Way to take one for the team :-) When
> you're racing to win you gotta push it. If you don't break anything
> you aren't winning.
Sure.
No doubt.
Absolutely.
Maybe you miss my point.
But in one night at the drags I saw 3 separate cars and 3 different battery
makes with 2 different battery types let smoke out. Not one of these, nor
most other EV I've ever seen (except for Ralph Merwin's earlier NiCd pack)
have given any consideration to heat buildup between batteries.
There's lots of consideration given to keeping motor and controller currents
within limits. There's lots of care and consideration to make sure
mechanical parts and electrical (e.g. contactors, fuses, wires, etc.) have
adequate margin. Yet we sandwich the batteries together ignoring
thermodynamics.
And then we wonder why they pop or let the smoke out...
Rather than simply saying "when you're racing to win you gotta push it",
we should be asking (1) whether heat buildup contributed to the failures and
(2) if so, then how can we design our battery boxes to get the heat out of
them under high load or charge rates.
I'm still seeing folks building battery boxes without inter-battery
ventilation. It's the rule, not the exception. George Tylinski I know has
been giving it consideration with his MG EV conversion, but that's it that
I'm aware of.
I think I've made my point.
Sorry if this sounds like I'm criticizing the racers, I'm mainly wanting to
see who's given this issue some thought and taken it beyond the thinking
stage with some results that we can all learn from.
And that's what it's all about---learning from other's experiences.
Thanks to all the racers pushing the cutting edge.
And yes, they DO "break things so we don't have to".
Let's learn from their lessons.
-MT, Portland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
What version of AccessIt! and Weasle Reader are you using? I'm looking for the
newest version, unless you know a reason an
earlier version is better. I want to do this to pull my energy usage. Every
once in a while I fire up the laptop and use a
terminal emulator to log my whole run to work, and pick it up for the run back.
I can then import the log into Excel, multiply
the Battery Volatge and Current columns together, total them down and divide by
10 (zilla puts out 10 samples per second) and by
3600 (3600 seconds in an hour) to give me Watt-Hours used. I then divide by
the mileage on my trip counter to give me Wh/mi
consumed. If I could capture it to the Palm I wouldn't have to wait massive
boot times for the laptop. Even better, if we could
automate the calculation on the Palm we could start the log and when you hit
stop, it asks for your trip counter, you enter the
number and get the Wh/Mi as a result. Even 1 step further if we could
integrate the odometer on the vehicle it could give you a
realtime moving average (or trip average) of Wh/mi.
Mike,
Anchorage, ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Chris Brune
> Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 9:58 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Capturing Zilla data at the drag strip
>
>
> Hi,
> I thought I'd do a short post about the method I have been using to capture
> Zilla data from Zombie, and also last night from Otmar's 914.
>
> In the past John has been putting his Mac laptop in the passenger seat and
> capturing data using a program called Zterm. There are a number of
> logistical issues with this. The laptop battery can't handle a full night
> of racing. I personally worry about submitting the laptop to the vibration
> and G's associated with going down the drag strip. And the bottom line is
> the laptop is a bit bulky to have in the car with you.
>
> My thought was let's figure out a way to get my Palm V to do this job. So
> my solution involves the following programs:
>
> ptelnet - this is the Palm terminal emulator that Otmar recommends for use
> with the Zilla. It is very handy for interacting with the Zilla, but does
> not have the ability to capture large data files.
>
> AccessIt! - This is a different terminal emulator for the Palm. It is not
> as good at interacting with the Zilla, but it does generate great log files.
> These log files are stored as pdb (Palm database) files on the Palm. Each
> log file is conveniently time and date stamped.
>
> Weasel Reader - Weasel is a program that is intended for viewing pdb files.
> It has the added feature of being able to beam these files as well. This
> program is used to beam the logfile generated by AccessIt! to a PC.
>
> Wordpad - Windows text editor. I use this program to edit out unwanted info
> in the logfile.
>
> FasTrack - This is the PC based program that SEVO (www.suncoast.net) put
> together for graphing Zilla data. Thanks!
>
> The process goes like this:
> 1. First setup the Zilla to start sending data. I do this using ptelnet on
> the Palm. This is done from the "p" menu using command "Q4" (make sure "Q"
> is upper case).
> 2. Now start AccessIt!. When you are ready to start logging data click
> "OnLine". This will start logging the data to a file. The fun part begins
> here, go drive/race your EV. When you are done click "OffLine" to close the
> log file.
> 3. The next thing we need to do is send the data to a PC. There are other
> ways to do this, but I wanted to do this via IR. My laptop has an IR port
> and so does the Palm V. So I go into Weasel, select the log file I want to
> send (filename starts "AccessLog-....). Then from the menu select Beam
> Book. The PC then picks up the file and stores it (in my case it shows up
> on the desktop).
> 4. I then use Wordpad to edit and view the file. There is some garbage at
> the begging of the file I delete out. In drag racing there is a fair amount
> of unwanted data so I can edit that out as well.
> 5. Then you can open the file in FasTrack.
>
> FasTrack is a great tool for quickly analyzing data from the Zilla. There
> are a couple of suggestions I have for making it more useful.
>
> First, everytime a "trace" is turned on and off it resets the x-axis
> scaling. This is fairly annoying if you are trying to analyze a specific
> portion of the data.
>
> Second, the Zilla is spitting out some data that isn't shown in FasTrack.
> Specifically which mode the controller is in. Zombie is constantly dancing
> with different Zilla limits (battery voltage, battery current, motor
> current). It would be helpful if there were some way to graphically show
> which mode the Zilla is in.
>
> John and I hope to put some snapshots of Zombie runs on his web site pretty
> soon, so be looking for this.
>
> We also captured Otmar's run where he blew an Orbital last night. Happened
> just after the end of the run. Current draw from the Orbitals was about
> 1250 amps at the end of the run.
>
> Regards,
> Chris Brune
>
>
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