EV Digest 5806
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Building a controller yourself
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Battery cooling (was: Re: 06 NEDRA Late Nite Nationals)
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Capturing Zilla data at the drag strip
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Capturing Zilla data at the drag strip
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Capturing Zilla data at the drag strip
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Compound motor confounding me
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) RE: Battery cooling (was: Re: 06 NEDRA Late Nite Nationals)
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Crushing EVs like in WKTEC: (Nissan Hyperminis gone)
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Radio's? WAS Re: I don't need a dc-dc converter
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Copper vs Silver vs Regular Bimbo Brushes
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Copper vs Silver vs Regular Bimbo Brushes
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Building a controller yourself
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EV grin is back!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Building a controller yourself
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Building a controller yourself
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Building a controller yourself
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: A bit cleaner air on the lake today
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Variac on 240vac?
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Building a controller yourself
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Variac on 240vac?
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Building a controller yourself
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Cheap EV motor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Building a controller yourself
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Chancy asked:
> How did the early electric cars handle the controller issue? I know
> they used voltage switching, series, parallel and such, but since the
> didn't use actual solenoid type contactors, how did they
> work? Sliding contacts or some such? Could such a thing be built at
> home today? How do you prevent arcing?
The common control element was/is a drum controller or mechanical contactor.
Yes, voltage switching was common, with pack voltage split in two, initially
in parallel, then for higher speeds, in series.
The rotating "drum" would connect different circuits together as a function
of rotary angle. The drum contacts are made by sliding copper "fingers" for
each circuit. At each actual "speed" position, the drum contacts are
dimpled somewhat, such that the user gets mechanical feedback that the
particular speed selection is right.
Many of these controllers included 3-5 speeds forward, neutral and reverse.
Some had multi-speed reverse as well as plug brake and even regen braking
positions.
The controller on my 1921 Model 27L Milburn has 4 forward speeds, neutral
and plug braking. Then with the press of a mechanical lockout mechanism
that you stomp on, the speed control arm reaches the 2 reverse speeds.
The controller itself doesn't appear all that complicated, though there's a
lot of mechanism between the controller and the speed control arm itself.
Some of the manufacturers used compound windings and some used "field
weakening"---Detroit Electric did this.
Milburn used series-wound motors and didn't use field weakening that I know
of.
Interestingly, while on the surface it appears that my controller has 8
positions (4F,N,B,2R), if you look at the contacts made as a function of
angle, you find that to achieve these 8 speed positions, there are at least
8 other intermediate "make" and "break" contacts that occur. IIRC, in going
from 2nd speed (1/2pack, no series coil) to 3rd speed (FULL pack, series
coil), there is a sequence of at least 4 make/breaks that happen with
rotation before actually settling into 3rd speed. This is likely done as a
safety precaution to minimize arcing while switching from half pack to full
pack while keeping motor current itself from causing arcs.
Even with proper care to such sequencing, the addition of snubbers and
diodes makes a lot of sense if you go this route.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I did get your point, actually. I didn't mean that to sound like a rant. Your
point is well taken. I would suspect up to a
point warming the batteries up is a good thing for racers. I'm wondering if a
high capacity purge fan would do them some good.
Let a battery compartment get warm up to the limit safety is compromised then
dump the heat before it esplodes.
I actually have the opposite thermal management problem for my truck. Well
not yet. My initial plan was to put the batteries
under the bed. However a guy in town that had done a Ranger that way several
years ago would up having problem keepimg the
batteries in each compartment warmed up to the same temperature in the winter.
So he took them out and put them all in a box, in
the bed. Since I was eager to get the beast on the road I put them in a box,
in the bed. But I'm still working on the design to
allow having 3 separate, insulated battery boxes under the bed. The trick
would be to make sure I can 1. Keep them warm and 2.
Keep them the same temperature. Fans, vents, heaters, ducts etc. Alas no time
for that right now. I have to worry about getting
MY heater in to keep ME warm.
Anyway back to the sploding hot battery problem. I wonder if these guys don't
really have a heat problem for day-to-day driving,
but put the batts under the stress of drag racing and the heat becomes a real
problem. Maybe an extreme solution would be to put
some cooling tubes that run between each battery and a scoop on the trunk that
you could drop ice cubes into. Let the ice melt,
flow through the tubes and drain on the ground. The first 13 second run, dump
one cup-o-ice through, a couple more 12 sec runs,
3 more cups. The last battery sploding run, 2 more cups. The stunt racers
actually do that for the driver's body cooling. Of
course you wouldn't want to lug a cooler full of ice down the 1/4 mile track
with you.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Myles Twete
> Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 10:21 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Battery cooling (was: Re: 06 NEDRA Late Nite Nationals)
>
>
> > Yeah but that one hot battery in the middle was probably putting
> > out 120% and performing sh#* hot. That one shoud get a
> > service-mans funeral. Way to take one for the team :-) When
> > you're racing to win you gotta push it. If you don't break anything
> > you aren't winning.
>
> Sure.
> No doubt.
> Absolutely.
> Maybe you miss my point.
> But in one night at the drags I saw 3 separate cars and 3 different battery
> makes with 2 different battery types let smoke out. Not one of these, nor
> most other EV I've ever seen (except for Ralph Merwin's earlier NiCd pack)
> have given any consideration to heat buildup between batteries.
>
> There's lots of consideration given to keeping motor and controller currents
> within limits. There's lots of care and consideration to make sure
> mechanical parts and electrical (e.g. contactors, fuses, wires, etc.) have
> adequate margin. Yet we sandwich the batteries together ignoring
> thermodynamics.
> And then we wonder why they pop or let the smoke out...
> Rather than simply saying "when you're racing to win you gotta push it",
> we should be asking (1) whether heat buildup contributed to the failures and
> (2) if so, then how can we design our battery boxes to get the heat out of
> them under high load or charge rates.
>
> I'm still seeing folks building battery boxes without inter-battery
> ventilation. It's the rule, not the exception. George Tylinski I know has
> been giving it consideration with his MG EV conversion, but that's it that
> I'm aware of.
>
> I think I've made my point.
> Sorry if this sounds like I'm criticizing the racers, I'm mainly wanting to
> see who's given this issue some thought and taken it beyond the thinking
> stage with some results that we can all learn from.
> And that's what it's all about---learning from other's experiences.
>
> Thanks to all the racers pushing the cutting edge.
> And yes, they DO "break things so we don't have to".
> Let's learn from their lessons.
>
> -MT, Portland
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:23 PM -0800 8/28/06, Mike Willmon wrote:
..Every once in a while I fire up the laptop and use a
terminal emulator to log my whole run to work, and pick it up for
the run back. I can then import the log into Excel, multiply
the Battery Volatge and Current columns together, total them down
and divide by 10 (zilla puts out 10 samples per second) and by
3600 (3600 seconds in an hour) to give me Watt-Hours used. I then
divide by the mileage on my trip counter to give me Wh/mi
consumed.
Umm, Mike and others,
That data from the Hairball is not very accurate, it's designed to be
just enough to make a controller run. I would not rely on it for
calculating energy usage.
E-meter data would work well for what you are doing.
BTW, for anyone trying to reach me, I'll be out of contact from today
to at least 9-5-06.
--
-Otmar-
914 EV, California Poppy,
http://evcl.com/914/
http://www.CafeElectric.com/
The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
Now accepting resumes. Please see:
http://www.cafeelectric.com/jobs.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Umm, Mike and others,
> That data from the Hairball is not very accurate, it's designed to be
> just enough to make a controller run. I would not rely on it for
> calculating energy usage.
> E-meter data would work well for what you are doing.
>
> BTW, for anyone trying to reach me, I'll be out of contact from today
> to at least 9-5-06.
>
So who's making the Z's?!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Umm, Mike and others,
That data from the Hairball is not very accurate, it's designed to be
just enough to make a controller run. I would not rely on it for
calculating energy usage.
E-meter data would work well for what you are doing.
BTW, for anyone trying to reach me, I'll be out of contact from today
to at least 9-5-06.
So who's making the Z's?!
What? Am I supposed to be a slave to production 24-7?
Another comment like that and I'll make it a month! :)
See you all in October.... Maybe... :)
--
-Otmar-
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After taking a closer look at the Kewet's Thrige-Titan motor, I doubt I can use
the series field at all while using a sepex controller: the shunt field has one
end in common with it (i.e. if D1-D2 is the series, and E1-E2 is the shunt,
D1=E1). This means if the series field is used, even if only from take-off, the
field control will have contact with full pack voltage - I assume this part of
the controller runs at a lower voltage. If so, pure sepex drive may not be the
best use for this compound motor.
Can anyone give me an educated guess as to whether my assumptions are correct?
I wonder if I need to send the motor off to Jim H. for a rewind to a straight
shunt field...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is an optimal temperature for maximum battery performance. Each
type of battery is different, but it is typically 115 F or greater.
You use the first run (or two) to warm up the pack. At that
point, you are ready for a full-power run. After that, you need to
either wait for the batteries to cool down by natural convection, or
you force air though the pack to bring them back to the optimal temperature.
There are several reasons why folks burst batteries at the
track. Improper thermal management is one cause. More often, the
racer hasn't bothered to put in some sort of system to balance the
charge on the batteries. (This causes fires as well.) Without a
something (like Rudman regs) to balance the charge, you will reverse
a battery during the run, or over-charge a battery in the pits,
causing it to get too hot.
It is a LOT of tedious work to install a BMS, but if you
want to win races, you have to take the time to do it. It makes a
HUGE difference in performance.
Bill Dube'
At 02:48 AM 8/29/2006, you wrote:
I did get your point, actually. I didn't mean that to sound like a
rant. Your point is well taken. I would suspect up to a
point warming the batteries up is a good thing for racers. I'm
wondering if a high capacity purge fan would do them some good.
Let a battery compartment get warm up to the limit safety is
compromised then dump the heat before it esplodes.
I actually have the opposite thermal management problem for my
truck. Well not yet. My initial plan was to put the batteries
under the bed. However a guy in town that had done a Ranger that
way several years ago would up having problem keepimg the
batteries in each compartment warmed up to the same temperature in
the winter. So he took them out and put them all in a box, in
the bed. Since I was eager to get the beast on the road I put them
in a box, in the bed. But I'm still working on the design to
allow having 3 separate, insulated battery boxes under the bed. The
trick would be to make sure I can 1. Keep them warm and 2.
Keep them the same temperature. Fans, vents, heaters, ducts
etc. Alas no time for that right now. I have to worry about getting
MY heater in to keep ME warm.
Anyway back to the sploding hot battery problem. I wonder if these
guys don't really have a heat problem for day-to-day driving,
but put the batts under the stress of drag racing and the heat
becomes a real problem. Maybe an extreme solution would be to put
some cooling tubes that run between each battery and a scoop on the
trunk that you could drop ice cubes into. Let the ice melt,
flow through the tubes and drain on the ground. The first 13 second
run, dump one cup-o-ice through, a couple more 12 sec runs,
3 more cups. The last battery sploding run, 2 more cups. The stunt
racers actually do that for the driver's body cooling. Of
course you wouldn't want to lug a cooler full of ice down the 1/4
mile track with you.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Myles Twete
> Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 10:21 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Battery cooling (was: Re: 06 NEDRA Late Nite Nationals)
>
>
> > Yeah but that one hot battery in the middle was probably putting
> > out 120% and performing sh#* hot. That one shoud get a
> > service-mans funeral. Way to take one for the team :-) When
> > you're racing to win you gotta push it. If you don't break anything
> > you aren't winning.
>
> Sure.
> No doubt.
> Absolutely.
> Maybe you miss my point.
> But in one night at the drags I saw 3 separate cars and 3 different battery
> makes with 2 different battery types let smoke out. Not one of these, nor
> most other EV I've ever seen (except for Ralph Merwin's earlier NiCd pack)
> have given any consideration to heat buildup between batteries.
>
> There's lots of consideration given to keeping motor and
controller currents
> within limits. There's lots of care and consideration to make sure
> mechanical parts and electrical (e.g. contactors, fuses, wires, etc.) have
> adequate margin. Yet we sandwich the batteries together ignoring
> thermodynamics.
> And then we wonder why they pop or let the smoke out...
> Rather than simply saying "when you're racing to win you gotta push it",
> we should be asking (1) whether heat buildup contributed to the
failures and
> (2) if so, then how can we design our battery boxes to get the heat out of
> them under high load or charge rates.
>
> I'm still seeing folks building battery boxes without inter-battery
> ventilation. It's the rule, not the exception. George Tylinski I know has
> been giving it consideration with his MG EV conversion, but that's it that
> I'm aware of.
>
> I think I've made my point.
> Sorry if this sounds like I'm criticizing the racers, I'm mainly wanting to
> see who's given this issue some thought and taken it beyond the thinking
> stage with some results that we can all learn from.
> And that's what it's all about---learning from other's experiences.
>
> Thanks to all the racers pushing the cutting edge.
> And yes, they DO "break things so we don't have to".
> Let's learn from their lessons.
>
> -MT, Portland
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Willmon said ....Just think if thousands of small startup EV conversion
companies started putting out 5-10 cars a year.... Still not an issue unless we
agree on a standard set of interfaces for our parts that can be readily
replaced. Like the computer industry does with video cards. Then we can scare
em. (heh, "death by a thousand cuts(cars)" I like it.
For you other computer nerds out there
How about creating an RFC containing interface standards for Controller
mechanical,electrical and communication protocols.
Interface adapters could be made for things like the curtis to help
grandfather them in.
Everyone share their adapter designs and let the common denominators fall out
of this, I really think if all 9" motors provided old small block chevy crank
patterns then we could use racing clutches, adapter kits etc from the
automotive world.
I designed my adapter towards this idea: a bell on the motor that can be
CNCed out of aluminum, later to become a casting that is just cleaned up. This
generates the backset needed for each application and differs in only the depth
dimension. Perhaps there is a deminsion or two that will do the trick, i have
to convert more vehicles to know. A flat adapter plate is water jet to size and
cnc mounting holes done.This plate is flat and the thickness can be varied
without added cost because of the flat nature to fine tune the set-back.
Racing clutches have a standard that is independent of
ford,chevy.nissan,....by adopting it, we can buy used,surplus, or new commodity
instead of custom.
But this all assumed keeping the tranny, basically RWD setups. I would need
more input from the community to flesh this concept out. I was practicing what
I preach with the patterns posted on my website, but I lost my server's home
and it needs a new one.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mike,
My research is in the detecting compounds and elements in the earth by using
10 khz to 300 mhz frequencies, which reads the di-electric and time constant
of the return frequency.
My shop, garage, home, is one large Faraday Shield, which is six layers of
aluminum foil sheeting that is separated by 6 layers of foam sheeting which
becomes about 90 R-Factor.
I redesign the insulation system in my EV which was just one layer of 3/4
inch foam rubber with a vinyl cover over it. I change it to two layers of
2 inch Dow Corning Blue Foam that is place 4 inches apart, with each the
outside layers a sheet of aluminum with a marine rug covering the foam
surfaces. The 4 inch dead air space between these
layers become a wire way for metal conduits.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Willmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 10:37 PM
Subject: RE: Radio's? WAS Re: I don't need a dc-dc converter
> Roland, what are you doing? Schuman Reasonance Testing?
>
> The only comm cabling I have in my truck is the Cat5 cable from the
> Hairball to the Zilla with the appropriate ferrite ring in the
> middle. My AM radio (thats all I listen too) works perfectly except when
> I'm both in a parking garage and its raining outside.
> Otherwise I get a weak ~15k- 20k hz squeal if the station isn't tuned in
> on peak. Mind you these are all local stations and I
> imagine if I caught a weak signal from Southeast Alaska it would probably
> be destroyed by the controller's splatter.
>
> The PFC20 is noisy. Rich says so himself. What else can I say except that
> I don't drive with it powered. And the only thing in
> the house affected is the hiss in the Baby Monitor. Which actually works
> out good. I found a place to put the monitor where the
> hiss is not so annoying, and when the charger shuts off I'm notified with
> the blast of quiet that ensues. I can then go down and
> unplug it. I can readily tell the difference between the scream of a
> waking baby and the splatter of the charger.
>
> Mike,
> Anchorage, Ak.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of Roland Wiench
> > Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 8:26 AM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: Radio's? WAS Re: I don't need a dc-dc converter
> >
> >
> > I don't understand. That's that first time in a long time, I said that.
> >
> > I can get AM FM GM or any of XM clear as a bell in my EV or in my house
> > when
> > my PFC-50B running wide open.
> >
> > Maybe it's the high elevation or I keep the humidity above 50 percent
> > at
> > all times.
> >
> > It could be that all my home and building wiring is all industrial
> > wiring,
> > which is all shield in steel conduit.
> >
> > It also could be that I have several grounding planes, which I one
> > grounding
> > rod for each panel, another one for the plumbing, another one for the
> > communications, and one ground cup connection in the concrete floor in
> > the
> > shop/garage, that I use for for my experimentation in ground frequency
> > testing.
> >
> > It could be that in my EV, I have a grounding type counter poise system
> > that
> > loops around the car and all my control and comm wires are double shield
> > with only the outside shield ground at one end and the inner shields are
> > floating.
> >
> > It could be that the motor, controller, batteries, battery charger and
> > the
> > AC input power are all isolated from the frame and body of the car.
> >
> > The only buzz I get is when I drive under very high voltage power lines
> > which are above 50KV.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 9:01 AM
> > Subject: Radio's? WAS Re: I don't need a dc-dc converter
> >
> >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Martin K" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 10:10 AM
> > > Subject: Re: I don't need a dc-dc converter
> > >
> > >
> > > > The problem with a boost converter at low output current is the
> > > > ripple.
> > > > Not so much of a problem when you're charging a battery, but becomes
> > > > very noisy when you're trying to do something like power an AM
> > > > radio.
> > > > --
> > > > Martin K
> > >
> > > > AM Radio?? Hah! Forgetaboutit! With all the electrical NOISE in a
> > > > home
> > > made EV, you're damn lucky to EVen GET FM, if it is a good strong
> > > station.Or
> > > if ya wanna watch Channel 3 with yuor PFC plugged in while charging.
> > > Wierd
> > > lines across the screen, FM radio hissy, on ALL stations. The Good
> > > Folks
> > > at
> > > Toyota took care of all these issues as you can listen to PBS
> > > classical
> > > music while being wafted along at 75 MPH, 30-40 [EMAIL PROTECTED] volts,
> > > on the
> > > freeway., in your RAV-4. I don't remember IF the radio worked in the
> > > EV-1?
> > > I
> > > was too enchanted by the OTHER cool sounds it made<g>!I'm sure on a
> > > trans
> > > continental trip I would like some 'toons though?
> > >
> > > My two channels worth
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I just read a study, google: "Testing of Silver, Copper and Electro-Graphite
Brush Materials for Slip Ring Units". Department of Electrical Engineering,
Stolkholm. They concluded that with various currents and speeds to 5k rpm's
that COPPER-GRAPHITE brushes were the best for total of frictional and
electrical losses. Fig 9 at 13A/cm^2 at 3k rpm's the copper had 170W loss
while the silver had 275W loss and the standard graphite 360W loss!. I'm
convinced, I'm running to Warfield right now to get my copper impregnated
brushes.
Have a copper-graphite day,
Mark
---------------------------------
Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small
Business.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Mark
First off you state these were done on slip rings and not on mica slotted
comms. Just so you know, the harder the brush the more wear it will produce on
the comm. Slagging of mica slots as well as grooving will probably be the net
result you will get. Just thought I'd chime in here before you have special
brushes made which just might result in a prematurely worn out comm. with an
expensive rewind to show for it.
Just my two grades worth.
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
"Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi,
I just read a study, google: "Testing of Silver, Copper and Electro-Graphite
Brush Materials for Slip Ring Units". Department of Electrical Engineering,
Stolkholm. They concluded that with various currents and speeds to 5k rpm's
that COPPER-GRAPHITE brushes were the best for total of frictional and
electrical losses. Fig 9 at 13A/cm^2 at 3k rpm's the copper had 170W loss while
the silver had 275W loss and the standard graphite 360W loss!. I'm convinced,
I'm running to Warfield right now to get my copper impregnated brushes.
Have a copper-graphite day,
Mark
---------------------------------
Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small
Business.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I left you one at Amazon :) My copy should be here in a couple of days.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> great thanks !
> will see how it's possible to make it travel to this side of the
pond :^)
>
> cordialement,
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Vitek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 4:35 PM
> Subject: RE: Building a controller yourself
>
>
> > > Book needs rescanned at a higher resolution since it's impossible to
> read
> > > parts of the schematics, text is too bold, the numbers/letters bleed
> into
> > > each other :o(
> >
> > That's odd. It looks fine to me. Is you browser resizing the gif's
to fit
> in the window?
> > If so, it does get pretty small on the font.
> >
> > > I have just this part of the book, i'm still looking for the
book or a
> copy if it's not
> > > available anymore, if someone can help i would appreciate.
> >
> > Amazon has it.
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/hnlrj
> >
> > --
> > joe
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark McCurdy wrote:
> How long are people getting out of packs of flooded leads
> (mentioning if you've got some form of regulator or monitoring
> on each battery)?
1-2 years or 10k miles for marine 12v floodeds; 3-5 years or 20k miles
for 6v golf cart batteries. Mistakes and abuse will shorten their life
(for example, running them completely dead, letting them sit for weeks
dead, mindless overcharging, forgetting to add water, etc.) A battery
management system, or very careful manual management can extend their
life by as much as 2:1.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G. wrote:
> What shunt wound motors are available?
All generators are of course shunt wound. The field is the easiest way
to control the voltage independent of rpm.
Small shunt and sepex motors are fairly common. You'll find them in golf
carts, tractor and aircraft starter/generators, industrial applications,
etc.
Larger ones exist for cars, trucks, buses, trains, etc. but they are
normally custom designed and built for the application. For example, the
Soleq EVcorts, Chrysler EPIC minivans, etc.
> field and pack voltage applied to the armature would "idle" around
> 1500 rpm. With such a system the "controller" can be nothing more
> than a large wire-wound rheostat. Run a car alternator for your
> 12v system (after all, this setup "idles".) Current limit is your
> right foot <g>
Yep! My first EV used an aircraft generator this way. A 2-step contactor
controller with starting resistor for the armature, and a big rheostat
for the field. Accellerator controlled the series/parallel switches, and
a big rheostat for the field. The motor ran about 1000-4000 rpm at 36v,
or 2000-8000 rpm at 72v.
> Didn't most of those old EVs typically have more than a simple
> series motor (often tapped compound wound motors?)
They varied. The oldest, cheapest EVs (1900s) were plain series motors,
just like we use today. As the technology advanced, they added shunt
fields and tapped field windings to get regenerative braking, smoother
speed control, higher efficiency, etc. By the 1930s, the luxury EVs were
quite advanced, with 7 steps or more and smooth speed control between
steps via field control.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Chancey wrote:
> How did the early electric cars handle the controller issue?
Just like today, there were many different solutions. Every engineer has
his own ideas of what is "best". :-)
They all used variations of series/parallel switching of the batteries,
with one or more steps with series resistors to get smoother starting.
The actual switching either used contactors, or high power rotary
switches (drum controllers).
> How do you prevent arcing?
Several ways. Circuits arranged so no contact has more than about 36v
across it. Snap-acting switches that open and close quickly minimize
arcing. Contacts shaped so the arc does not form between the actual
contact surfaces, but rather between "expendable" edges. Sliding
contacts that always maintain contact to something (so no open circuits
with inductive loads).
Nowdays, we have extra tricks that they didn't. Powerful magnets for
magnetic blowouts. Diodes for freewheel paths around motors. MOVs and
other transient absorbers. And of course solid-state switches.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EV2 wrote:
> What if you had a make before break on the sliding contacts and the
> group of batteries were shorted out momentarily with a controlled
> means and the motor would never know there was an abrubt change
> of voltage and there would be no arcing.
That's what they did on the big rotary switch controllers for trolley
cars and the likes. Think of a big slate panel with bolt heads arranged
in a circle. Each bolt head has a dime-sized bit of silver brazed onto
it. The wires connect to the other side of the panel with these bolts.
A big rotary arm moves a sliding contact over the bolt heads to
make/break connections. Arcing occurs on the edges, not the faces of the
contacts.
The trick is that there are intermediate contacts between positions. The
shorting bar is wide enough to short two adjacent contacts as it moves.
The intermediate contacts have resistors in series, to always provide a
path for the current as the switch is moved.
Example (view with a fixed-width font like Courier):
||
12v__________O ||---------to motor
||
__/\/\__O \movable shorting bar
|
24v_|________O
As the shorting bar is moved
1. the motor gets straight 12v, resistor not connected
2. motor gets 12v, resistor connected between 12v and 24v
3. motor gets 24v thru resistor
4. motor gets 24v direct, resistor shorted to 24v
5. motor gets 24v direct, resisto not connected
Crude, but no arcing or noise! 100% efficient if you only pass through
the resistive positions for a fraction of a second.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What was the cost on your system, Stefan?
And does anyone know what would be needed to charge this battery from
a 12VDC solar power system?
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
Logistically it would be easier to do 19 at a time. But since there is
no bms to peak them to the same voltage I wonder if I'll end up with an
unbalanced pack from the very first charge.
My experience with the Elec-trak at first was to charge the batteries in
sets of 12 volts, then pop them into the tractor. This resulted in an
unbalanced pack; took a few hard charges from the E20's charger to get
it in sync.
I was really happy in charging the truck as one big unit.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
thanks but as discovering it exist, i already purchased on at Amazon.fr :^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Philippe Borges" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: Building a controller yourself
> I left you one at Amazon :) My copy should be here in a couple of days.
>
> Mike
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > great thanks !
> > will see how it's possible to make it travel to this side of the
> pond :^)
> >
> > cordialement,
> > Philippe
> >
> > Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> > quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> > Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joe Vitek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 4:35 PM
> > Subject: RE: Building a controller yourself
> >
> >
> > > > Book needs rescanned at a higher resolution since it's impossible to
> > read
> > > > parts of the schematics, text is too bold, the numbers/letters bleed
> > into
> > > > each other :o(
> > >
> > > That's odd. It looks fine to me. Is you browser resizing the gif's
> to fit
> > in the window?
> > > If so, it does get pretty small on the font.
> > >
> > > > I have just this part of the book, i'm still looking for the
> book or a
> > copy if it's not
> > > > available anymore, if someone can help i would appreciate.
> > >
> > > Amazon has it.
> > >
> > > http://tinyurl.com/hnlrj
> > >
> > > --
> > > joe
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The imbalance is what I want to avoid since trying to rebalance 252
cells is not a joyous task.
I could do just as you did, by taking each box of 19 cells and peak
charge them. That should be a little closer charge level box to box.
But it will allow me to initialize the charge without any jerry rigged
set ups, which I can also easily do.
Do you suppose I could just start the initialization charge on the
whole pack with a variac on just 120vac? Then use the truck to pump in
the 50-60 AH once the voltage is up to 130vdc or so? I could do all of
this with the old nimh setup that's still in the bed of the truck. Then
after they are intialized I can install them into the batt box under
the bed.
For those that don't know that BB600 nicads require an initialization
charge when they are new of about 50-60 ah. They are 30-40 ah cells
depending on discharge rate.
Mike
--- Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mike Phillips wrote:
> > Logistically it would be easier to do 19 at a time. But since there
> is
> > no bms to peak them to the same voltage I wonder if I'll end up
> with an
> > unbalanced pack from the very first charge.
>
> My experience with the Elec-trak at first was to charge the batteries
> in
> sets of 12 volts, then pop them into the tractor. This resulted in an
>
> unbalanced pack; took a few hard charges from the E20's charger to
> get
> it in sync.
>
> I was really happy in charging the truck as one big unit.
>
> Chris
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How is the section on AC hardware? Any good?
Mike
--- Philippe Borges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> thanks but as discovering it exist, i already purchased on at
> Amazon.fr :^)
>
> cordialement,
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Philippe Borges" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 5:16 PM
> Subject: Re: Building a controller yourself
>
>
> > I left you one at Amazon :) My copy should be here in a couple of
> days.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > great thanks !
> > > will see how it's possible to make it travel to this side of the
> > pond :^)
> > >
> > > cordialement,
> > > Philippe
> > >
> > > Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> > > quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> > > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> > > Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> > > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Joe Vitek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 4:35 PM
> > > Subject: RE: Building a controller yourself
> > >
> > >
> > > > > Book needs rescanned at a higher resolution since it's
> impossible to
> > > read
> > > > > parts of the schematics, text is too bold, the
> numbers/letters bleed
> > > into
> > > > > each other :o(
> > > >
> > > > That's odd. It looks fine to me. Is you browser resizing the
> gif's
> > to fit
> > > in the window?
> > > > If so, it does get pretty small on the font.
> > > >
> > > > > I have just this part of the book, i'm still looking for the
> > book or a
> > > copy if it's not
> > > > > available anymore, if someone can help i would appreciate.
> > > >
> > > > Amazon has it.
> > > >
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/hnlrj
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > joe
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I happened to be looking in the Surplus Center catalog
(www.surpluscenter.com). On page 110 they show:
DC motor, item 10-2120, $199.99. New GE model 5BT-1344B133 compound
traction motor. Specs: 2 hp, 24 vdc, 72 amps, 1050 rpm, continuous duty,
open frame, CW rotation, shaft 1.125" dia. 2.5" long w/keyway, 9" dia x
14.5" long, 149 lbs.
Gentlemen, that ain't no 2hp motor! It's almost as big as an Advanced DC
9"! 1050 rpm indeed; it should easily handle 6000 rpm, which is around
144v. It may be 2hp at 24v, but will be more like 12hp at 144v.
And, it's compound wound!
Now, all I know is what I read in the catalogs. But this looks like a
good candidate for a cheap EV!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can't answer you, it's on the way :^)
but probably other people on the EV list have it under eyes
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: Building a controller yourself
> How is the section on AC hardware? Any good?
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- Philippe Borges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > thanks but as discovering it exist, i already purchased on at
> > Amazon.fr :^)
> >
> > cordialement,
> > Philippe
> >
> > Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> > quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> > Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Philippe Borges" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 5:16 PM
> > Subject: Re: Building a controller yourself
> >
> >
> > > I left you one at Amazon :) My copy should be here in a couple of
> > days.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > great thanks !
> > > > will see how it's possible to make it travel to this side of the
> > > pond :^)
> > > >
> > > > cordialement,
> > > > Philippe
> > > >
> > > > Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> > > > quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> > > > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> > > > Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> > > > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Joe Vitek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 4:35 PM
> > > > Subject: RE: Building a controller yourself
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > Book needs rescanned at a higher resolution since it's
> > impossible to
> > > > read
> > > > > > parts of the schematics, text is too bold, the
> > numbers/letters bleed
> > > > into
> > > > > > each other :o(
> > > > >
> > > > > That's odd. It looks fine to me. Is you browser resizing the
> > gif's
> > > to fit
> > > > in the window?
> > > > > If so, it does get pretty small on the font.
> > > > >
> > > > > > I have just this part of the book, i'm still looking for the
> > > book or a
> > > > copy if it's not
> > > > > > available anymore, if someone can help i would appreciate.
> > > > >
> > > > > Amazon has it.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://tinyurl.com/hnlrj
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > joe
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> Here's to the crazy ones.
> The misfits.
> The rebels.
> The troublemakers.
> The round pegs in the square holes.
> The ones who see things differently
> The ones that change the world!!
>
> www.RotorDesign.com
>
--- End Message ---
