EV Digest 5815
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: My thoughts on Gone Postal and the quest for data
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: BB600 odd nuts + 40 miles on first run!
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) From The RPM Trade Show
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: A bit cleaner air on the lake today, and Sound.
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Tech info for 48V GE motor on Surplus Center
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Cheap EV motor
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Cheap EV motor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Tech info for 48V GE motor on Surplus Center
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: BB600 odd nuts + 40 miles on first run!
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) IGBT question
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 192v charging question (9A31 Dekka Intimidators)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Another range question
by Patrick Clarke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Better Pot
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Karman Ghia vs Baha Bug vs Thing vs Kit Bug
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Hot New RC Battery
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: My thoughts on Gone Postal and the quest for data
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: My thoughts on Gone Postal and the quest for data
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: IGBT question
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Tech info for 48V GE motor on Surplus Center
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: My thoughts on Gone Postal and the quest for data
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: IGBT question
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: My thoughts on Gone Postal and the quest for data
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: IGBT question
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: IGBT question
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Cheap EV motor
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: IGBT question
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Now for some real facts. "Monster Garage" and "Sucking Amps" were both
Discovery Channel programs. "Sucking Amps" was a pilot for a possible series
which was produced by Craig Piligian of Pilgrim Films and Television. This
is the production company that does "American Chopper" and Boyd Coddington's
"American Hot Rod".
Rich stated: "I think Rod had a 98mph But I think MG had a better ET with a
14.53 at 93.33 mph"
To find the true ET for "Gone Postal" one only has to own a computer and go
to www.nedra.com to find that GP turned a 14.007
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
PS: Countering mis-information takes up way too much of my valuable time.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: My thoughts on Gone Postal and the quest for data
Umm Hello Tom
First GP was buildt for the Discovery channel... NOT Monster Garage. One
was
two yeard before the other.
Monster Garage Episode #83 I think was done in December '05, I was the
Build
crew leader.
We buildt a 62 Chevy Bell Air.. with 2 two motors from Shawn Lawless's
dragster.
And We have better top speeds With Gp than with the Mg Car.
I think Rod had a 98mph But I think MG had a better ET with a 14.53 at
93.33
mph.
So a VERY good argument would be the Gone Postal and the Monster Garage
Car
shoot out.
Lots of Old lead VS spaning new Lion.
I would root for Gp.. it has more of my blood in it. And I know how to
make
it Faster.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: My thoughts on Gone Postal and the quest for data
While others are sharing their thoughts about Gone Postal, I'll share
some
of mine.
The idea behind creating Gone Postal was to create a farce for the
Monster
Garage TV show. Converting an old mail truck into a drag racer was a
totally
absurd idea and impossible. I think I can safely say impossible because
if
the team who built it couldn't make Gone Postal into a drag racer, then
nobody could. I was surprised, impressed and pleased that GP ran as well
as it did.
So, what's to become of GP? My guess is that its racing days are over.
Maybe now is a good time to share ideas for GP, the retired race truck.
--
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--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
Tonight these cells on their first journey out took the USE truck 40
miles on 38ah at night, headlights and radio on, 66 degree ambient,
medium lead foot, 34-40mph in stop and go traffic with lots of stop
lights. Awesome first run! I think I can get 50 miles. So for a little
more weight the truck has well over doubled it's mileage on only 228
cells. There are 24 more going into the box, but they just arrived
today.
Congratulations! I'm glad there is someone else testing these things as
well. How did you get it together so fast; it took me forever to get the
batteries in, hooked up and the like?
Isn't it nice to have such a cool battery pack? And if these things work
out we won't have to replace our batteries for 30-50 years. Although
it's going to be tough to replace the pack when I am in my 90's, better
start planning for that.
Also is your truck limiting voltage minimum to 250 volts, or do you have
it set lower? Any evidence of the big drop-off?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just spoke with FT. They are on their way back to the Trade Show. It opens
at noon today. Yesterday was the first day and the response was extremely
positive. Even gas engine builders were asking how they could get involved.
The mood there is quite exciting with much positive response. When people
look under the hood of "White Zombie" they can't believe their eyes and then
when they see the smokin burnouts they are further blown away. I had FT
write 12.1 on the windshield with shoe polish as they all know what that
means. We should be hearing from Roy tonight. He was up until 1:30 AM last
night downloading videos to show today.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Have you guys seen this?
http://www.boesch-boats.ch/en/boats/560/sundeck_electric_power.html#
Of course, you could have a Tesla Roadster instead.
-Mike
On 8/31/06, Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
As A Netgain dealer I get calls all the time, guy wants to put a 9 or11
motor in a boat. Wants tp plane off, Maybe Waterski? and go 40 miles" Well,
the CARS go that far"Ya gotta let them down easy, isn't a motor issue, but
the batterys common people can buy, IS the issue.It's right up there with
the generator on the front wheel thing.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee had mentioned a decent GE motor in an earlier post that was going
for cheap at Surplus Supply. In the reply tree, Mark McCurdy mentioned
a different motor (10-1422). I took the model # from Surplus Center and
sent it to GE tech support.
* I re-formatted the text a bit, as it was two specifications per line,
and hard to read. I might have put something on the next line that
belongs on the previous.
* Class H Insulation =)
* I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the brushes listed:
"BRUSH-T300 2(1.125 X .50)" Are these Good, Bad, Ugly?
Here's the specs:
Model : 5BT1326B207 Catalog Number :
General:
Application : ELECTRIC VEHICLE
Motor Category : COMPLETE MOTOR
Phases : 1 #
Of Speeds :
Replaces :
Replaced By :
TestSpec # : 1326-2513G
Production Status : PROD
Horiz/Vertical : HOR
Stock Status :
Product Name :
Approved For Sale :
Base Mounting :
BOB Restricted Flag : N
DE Endshield :
STD First Customer : SNORKEL
Customer Part # :
Nameplate Data :
Horsepower : 5.6 GE
Type : BT
RPM : 1200
Time Rating : 1HR @ 140C
Voltage : 47
NEMA Design :
FL Amps : 113
KVA Code :
Enclosure : OFC
Nominal Efficiency :
Frame :
Min Guar. Efficiency :
Frequency : DC
Service Factor :
Insulation Class : H
Service Factor Amps :
Ambient : 40
Alternate Service Factor :
Alternate Ambient :
Features :
UL Recognized : Y
CSA Approved : N
Main Poles :
Other Poles :
Synch RPM :
# of Windings :
Start Device :
Insulation Treatment :
Thermal Protection :
UL Recognized Protection : N
Aux. Cooling :
Temp Code :
Class I Groups :
Class II Groups :
PE Bearing : BALL OPE
Bearing : BALL
PE Brg Size : 207
OPE Brg Size : 205
PE Brg Style : DOUBLE SHIELD
OPE Brg Style : DOUBLE SHIELD
PE Brg Part # : 894A605ZJ007
OPE Brg Part # : 894A605ZJ005
Bearing Grease : SPL
Water Slinger :
Drip Cover :
Drains :
Conduit Box Size :
Conduit Box Gasket :
Rotation :
REV Vibration :
Color :
Finish :
Diagrams and Dimensions :
Outline Drawing : 36B550582AP
C-Dimension : 17.04
GEM Print :
Weight (lb) : -15
PE Shaft Ext'n : EXTERNAL SPLINE 14T
OPE Shaft Ext'n : NONE
Connection Diagram : 36A289106AN
Notes :
BRUSH-T300 2(1.125 X .50)
ADD. DESC.
SEAT BRUSHES IN BOTH DIR
INSTRUCTIONS: GEI43714AB
PAINT: P6A-CD4-4
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No arguement Lee.
It's just that people tend to take what you say as gospel and I didn't
want some newbe thinking that this applied to ALL motors (RPM being the
ONLY voltage limit)
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> Hold on a moment Lee. Raising the voltage can also cause problems
>> arcing, sometimes even before the RPM limit is reached. Especially
>> if you are also pushing big amps.
>
> That's correct. However, I think 24v 72a is excessively conservative for
> a motor of this size. Surplus dealers are not known for their acumen in
> getting the specs right.
>
>> As I recall there is a kind of rule of thumb about the number of
>> comutator segments and the maximum "safe" voltage.
>
> Yes; it's about 30 volts between bars. It's possible that this 24v motor
> has an unusually small commutator with very few bars -- but I'll bet
> it's got the same nice big commutator that all the large GE motors had.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Major wrote:
> I agree my ball park calculation is probably conseravtive for
> several reasons, but not the one you mention. Series motor torque
> is only proprotional to square of armature current below knee of
> saturation curve. High loads, approaching stall, will certianly
> take mmf higher than knee and no longer provide proprotional
> increase in flux, so the squared rule will not apply.
The specs for the motor being discussed (Surplus Center item# 10-2120,
compound wound, 24v, 72a, 149 lbs.) are clearly well under its actual
ratings. 72 amps is nowhere near its saturation current. Therefore, the
torque = current squared approximation is better than torque = current.
Yes, at high currents, saturation does reduce the torque-per-amp
relationship. However, motors have air gaps, so saturation occurs
gradually.
Here is the torque-vs-amps relationship for a similar motor, a GE
5BT1346B50, which weighs 170 lbs:
torque current
ft.lbs amps
5 110
10 135
20 185
40 295
60 400
80 500
100 590
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Lee had mentioned a decent GE motor in an earlier post that was going
for cheap at Surplus Supply. In the reply tree, Mark McCurdy mentioned
a different motor (10-1422). I took the model # from Surplus Center and
sent it to GE tech support.
* I re-formatted the text a bit, as it was two specifications per line,
and hard to read. I might have put something on the next line that
belongs on the previous.
* Class H Insulation =)
* I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the brushes listed:
"BRUSH-T300 2(1.125 X .50)" Are these Good, Bad, Ugly?
Hey all
These are a really good brush for forklift use, they are also fairly spendy
to buy. I believe they would work well EVen at the higher voltage and current
EV's are using. These are what I call a speckeled brush grade with different
materials embeded in the base material.. Something kinda like the layered
brush thread but with smaller crushed and mixed speckels. I really don't know
the exact materials used but it is the premier brush to install in these bigger
GE motors as oppossed to the cheap after market brushes a lot of places sell.
Anyway thats the poop from this end, and what I know about them.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tonight these cells on their first journey out took the USE truck 40
miles on 38ah at night, headlights and radio on, 66 degree ambient,
medium lead foot, 34-40mph in stop and go traffic with lots of stop
lights. Awesome first run! I think I can get 50 miles. So for a little
more weight the truck has well over doubled it's mileage on only 228
cells. There are 24 more going into the box, but they just arrived
today.
I wouldn't ever plan on taking the truck over 40 miles again if I were you.
I have found that with the BB600's the first run is often the best run.
After all you just put in 50 - 60 ahrs in intitialization charge and all the
cells are balanced. Unlike lead, I think BB600 packs range decrease after
the first run as the cells capacities start to drift apart. With the
stiffness of a the NiCad cells you will find it impossible to notice that
one or two cells have reversed as all the others cells will still be
propping up the pack voltage.
My cells are always good for 40 or more ahrs on their first run, but in
daily use I find it unwise to count on more than 35 ahrs. I have reversed
cells several times on my motorcycle. Making that mistake is not fatal as
the reversed cells can be reinitialized and used again in the future, but it
is not good for them and unlikely that you can count on them for 40ahrs
after they have been reversed. Plus it's a real hassle individually
testing capacity on each individual cell to figure out which ones no longer
have the capacity you expect.
If I were you I'd call 35 ahrs my limit. When you are going to go that far
be sure that you give plenty of overcharge, which increases the need for
watering of course :-)
Damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've seen how IGBTs are used in cotroller for high power switching, but do they
have any other use
in an EV? Would they work well as a relay to connect/disconnect things from the
DC pack? Or is
there always some current leakage that might cause a drain even when the item
is off?
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Willmon wrote:
> So I had my first "limp home the last 3 miles at 20mph" day.
This is a classic mistake that most first-time EVers make -- continuing
to drive when the batteries are so dead that the vehicle can barely
move. I know; we've all done it -- and learned to regret it!
This is a VERY BAD thing to do to your batteries! Those last few miles
cost you hundreds of dollars in battery damage and shortened their life
appreciably.
When your EV slows down like this, one or more cells are dropping under
1.75v under load. That means they are DEAD. If you keep driving at the
same current, you will reverse them (charge them in the reverse
direction). This drastically reduces their amphour capacity and
seriously shortens their life.
I know it's hard to stop driving; our ego urges us "just one more
mile... I'm almost there. I'll be late for something. I'm not a
quitter..." But that's what you have to do; otherwise you become a
battery serial killer.
So, what to do if the speed drops and the voltage sags alarmingly?
1. Stop driving. Let the batteries rest half an hour or whatevery you
can spare. Their voltage will come back up enough to let you drive
a little farther at normal voltages.
2. Find some place to charge. Even a brief "opportunity charge" will
do wonders for the battery's performance. Almost anyone will let
you plug in for a while if you're polite and offer to pay. Most
people are so curious that they will let you charge for free.
3. Drive slower, to keep the voltages over 1.75v/cell.
4. Park it. Walk, call a friend, take a cab or bus. Give it a few
hours rest and it will drive home just fine. Or have it towed.
What you save on battricide will *easily* pay for it.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Greetings EV'ers!
So we've been happily driving our EV around Seattle for the last couple
of months (120V 1991 Geo Metro), and are trying to determine - without
damaging the batteries - our effective range.
According to the source of the 10 12V AGM's powering her, we have a 90
AmpHr pack. Here's the data from the top of the batteries themselves:
C&D Technologies Dynasty UPS "High Rate Series" (UPS12-475FR)
12V, 134.8 AH, 475 WPC, IEC Rating 120.3, 110 inlbs, 12.4NM, Float
Charge Voltage: 13.5-13.8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] degrees
We've been logging our trips with beginning/ending:
- Mileage
- Voltage
- AmpHrs
- WattHrs
According to our logged data, over our daily drivings we've been
averaging about 250 WattHrs/mile and/or a smidge over 2 AmpHrs/mile
(does this sound about right?).
Can we guesstimate our range to 80% DoD as simply as:
(90 AmpHrs/ 2 AmpHrs/Mile) * .8 = 36 miles?
So far, the most miles we've had occasion to travel on a charge has been
in the low 20's, at roughly 2 AmpHrs/mile. Again, this is in Seattle,
where there are plenty of hills. We do try to minimize them by route
choice and have so far avoided the worst of them (read, the downtown
hillclimbs that nearly require pitons or Queen Anne), but with a running
start at least, have not had many problems. I think we've briefly pulled
about 300 amps or so, going up the steepest ones we've tried in second gear.
We've only been on the freeway once or twice (with acceptable behavior),
so almost all of this has been in-city driving.
So what do you think? Should we expect a 80% DoD range in the mid 30
miles? What's the best way to measure this, without harming the pack?
And what would be reasonable to extrapolate between in-city and highway
miles? Example: we can drive to Issaquah from North Seattle on the
interstate or via (albeit much longer time-wise) surface streets. I'm
guessing the surface streets would use less juice, but what do I know?
Thanks for any advice or comments!
- Patrick & Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I checked Lee's recommendation for a better pot to replace the 5k 45 degree
traveled Curtis. Mouser couldn't find the Vishay model 657 20k pot on their
website or by calling. I have some glitches occasionally and I think I'll
integrate the input signal with a 10ms time constant or 1k & 10uf cap on the
wiper feed to the A/D converter of the uP. The 5V supply I'll put a 100uf cap
going out to the high side & have a 1K pull up so if a wire pops off, it's
detected since the max wiper voltage is 4V (if it sees 4.5V it shuts down).
I'm using the Curtis potbox as a 3-wire pot so the 20k pot wouldn't work for me
but hopefully integrating the wiper signal will help with any wirewound
dropouts or nearby electrical noise. I didn't see any partial travel pots like
a 45 degree full resistance type pot like Curtis has. For just hooking up 2
wires a 20K pot would work as a 5K partial travel pot but I always use 3 wires
in my controllers. If anyone knows of a partial travel pot,
let me know.
Thanks,
Mark
---------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I was curious on which vehicle weight came out the lightest for a conversion.
It looks like parts are still available for the Karman Ghia & noticed that one
was recently converted. Does anyone know the start weight of a Ghia vs a Thing
or a kit Bug? Or can recommend an easy kit bolt on? It looks like 14
batteries would fit in a VW Thing but appears difficult in a Ghia.
Thanks,
Mark
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates
starting at 1¢/min.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For an EV sized pack (100Ah 312V) with these SMC cells, it would take nearly
6000 cells, weigh just over 400kg and cost roughly $53,000
For Kokam: it would take 84 cells, weigh 232kg and cost about $30,000
The Milwaukee V30 cordless battery: 368 units, 382kg and $50,000 (has a BMS
though)
For Thundersky: 84 cells, 253kg and $14,000 (although these are not proving
up to their capacity)
Of course there is more to consider - the amount of power that can be
delivered, ordering in bulk quantities, battery management systems, assembly
effort, etc.
Also, does anyone have pricing on the A123 batteries...
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Dymaxion
Sent: August 31, 2006 12:29 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Hot New RC Battery
The newest hot one seems to be the IB4200. It is a Nimh C cell, only
68 grams. It can belt out 35 amps, and still be at the nominal 1.2 Volts! It
has about 1/2 the internal resistance of the next best cell (that I know
about, anyway). Some guys on the web claim they can pull 200 Amps from these
things! I saw a chart claiming you could pull 70 Amps for 2 minutes!
I got these specs from several web sites, nothing personally verified. If
you can believe the specs, they are not too far behind
A123 Lithium batteries. Costs I saw were about $9 / cell.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> First the shift blanking is NOT available on the Zilla.
> It was on the Raptors and T-Rexes..
Gee Rich, make up your mind already! ;^>
When I first asked about shift blanking, you stated that the Zilla *did*
have it nicely implemented:
"The Zilla has it's own shift blanking throw the relays, sequence...
That's been well engineered by Otmar."
But, in any event, I described how trivial it would be to implement
shift blanking on the front 'Zilla if the controller didn't offer the
feature.
> What I want is full control of the Fronts with pedal control,
> But have the back lock full on until brake is applied. That
> way I Can play with clutch and throttle and amps and RPM shift
> points while the Back just does it's thing.
Sounds a bit like a death wish to me ;^>
The problem you described initially was that lifting off the throttle to
shift the front drive messes with the desired operation of the rear
drive. A really basic shift blanking setup on the front drive would
allow you to shift the front drive at any RPM you want without affecting
the read drive operation since you would no longer have to lift your
foot off the throttle to shift.
Tom Shay wrote:
> Converting an old mail truck into a drag racer was a
> totally absurd idea and impossible. I think I can safely
> say impossible because if the team who built it couldn't
> make Gone Postal into a drag racer, then nobody could.
I disagree; Rod isn't finished with GP yet.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: like John Wayland, I've no
doubt that GP has low 12's in her, if not better. My buddy's best time
is now a 12.65 in his 500HP 7000lb diesel 4x4 daily driver, on street
tires; this truck is nearly 2x the weight of GP and at least as
un-aerodynamic.
When Rod gets GP sorted out, I think it will become quite clear that
this is a *serious* racer.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Uhhhh
John's place it 200 miles away... that's a LONG sneak!
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 1:24 AM
Subject: Re: My thoughts on Gone Postal and the quest for data
> At 09:46 PM 30/08/06 -0700, Madman wrote:
> >What I want is full control of the Fronts with pedal control, But have
the
> >back lock full on until brake is applied. That way I Can play with clutch
> >and throttle and amps and RPM shift points while the Back just does it's
> >thing.
>
> G'day Rich, and All
>
> Well what you're asking for sound dead easy, put a relay in that swaps the
> wipers over from the potbox to a 'dash' mounted pot, click the relay in
> from a switch that operates on full throttle, and drop it off from the
> brakes. Don't forget a 'dash' switch to turn it off again.
>
> But I guess you already figured that out, what you meant to say is you
want
> is to get access when Rods' back is turned to implement this?!! (Sneak
over
> to Johns' place, quick!)
>
> Have fun!
>
> [Technik] James
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
the gate drive consumes power when turned on, that is wasteful compared
to relays.
btw, what is the difference between a "contactor", "solenoid", and a
"relay", they all seem the same to me..
Dave Cover wrote:
I've seen how IGBTs are used in cotroller for high power switching, but do they
have any other use
in an EV? Would they work well as a relay to connect/disconnect things from the
DC pack? Or is
there always some current leakage that might cause a drain even when the item
is off?
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I bit the bullet and ordered one of these. $400, including shipping.
When I get it, I'll provide photos & answer questions.
EP
Eric Poulsen wrote:
Lee had mentioned a decent GE motor in an earlier post that was going
for cheap at Surplus Supply. In the reply tree, Mark McCurdy
mentioned a different motor (10-1422). I took the model # from
Surplus Center and sent it to GE tech support.
* I re-formatted the text a bit, as it was two specifications per
line, and hard to read. I might have put something on the next line
that belongs on the previous.
* Class H Insulation =)
* I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the brushes listed:
"BRUSH-T300 2(1.125 X .50)" Are these Good, Bad, Ugly?
Here's the specs:
Model : 5BT1326B207 Catalog Number :
General:
Application : ELECTRIC VEHICLE
Motor Category : COMPLETE MOTOR
Phases : 1 #
Of Speeds :
Replaces :
Replaced By :
TestSpec # : 1326-2513G
Production Status : PROD
Horiz/Vertical : HOR
Stock Status :
Product Name :
Approved For Sale :
Base Mounting :
BOB Restricted Flag : N
DE Endshield :
STD First Customer : SNORKEL
Customer Part # :
Nameplate Data :
Horsepower : 5.6 GE
Type : BT
RPM : 1200
Time Rating : 1HR @ 140C
Voltage : 47
NEMA Design :
FL Amps : 113
KVA Code :
Enclosure : OFC
Nominal Efficiency :
Frame :
Min Guar. Efficiency :
Frequency : DC
Service Factor :
Insulation Class : H
Service Factor Amps :
Ambient : 40
Alternate Service Factor :
Alternate Ambient :
Features :
UL Recognized : Y
CSA Approved : N
Main Poles :
Other Poles :
Synch RPM :
# of Windings :
Start Device :
Insulation Treatment :
Thermal Protection :
UL Recognized Protection : N
Aux. Cooling :
Temp Code :
Class I Groups :
Class II Groups :
PE Bearing : BALL OPE
Bearing : BALL
PE Brg Size : 207
OPE Brg Size : 205
PE Brg Style : DOUBLE SHIELD
OPE Brg Style : DOUBLE SHIELD
PE Brg Part # : 894A605ZJ007
OPE Brg Part # : 894A605ZJ005
Bearing Grease : SPL
Water Slinger :
Drip Cover :
Drains :
Conduit Box Size :
Conduit Box Gasket :
Rotation :
REV Vibration :
Color :
Finish :
Diagrams and Dimensions :
Outline Drawing : 36B550582AP
C-Dimension : 17.04
GEM Print :
Weight (lb) : -15
PE Shaft Ext'n : EXTERNAL SPLINE 14T
OPE Shaft Ext'n : NONE
Connection Diagram : 36A289106AN
Notes :
BRUSH-T300 2(1.125 X .50)
ADD. DESC.
SEAT BRUSHES IN BOTH DIR
INSTRUCTIONS: GEI43714AB
PAINT: P6A-CD4-4
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So yea Rod .. Go would Kick the Monster Garage's Chevy pretty good.
I hope you get as much satisfaction from that as I do.
Bring it on Jesse!!!
Madman
Oh by the way.. the Mg car is owned by Milwaukee Tools.
Hey Zick.... Bring your "Not in our life time" Lithium power Seld up here...
we have a willing compeditor...
Both are large heavy and over powered.
I think the Mg car could do low 13s, with some real tires under it and ...a
pair of 600 amp breakers.....
Same weak link..... Feel batter Rod???
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: My thoughts on Gone Postal and the quest for data
> Now for some real facts. "Monster Garage" and "Sucking Amps" were both
> Discovery Channel programs. "Sucking Amps" was a pilot for a possible
series
> which was produced by Craig Piligian of Pilgrim Films and Television. This
> is the production company that does "American Chopper" and Boyd
Coddington's
> "American Hot Rod".
>
> Rich stated: "I think Rod had a 98mph But I think MG had a better ET with
a
> 14.53 at 93.33 mph"
>
> To find the true ET for "Gone Postal" one only has to own a computer and
go
> to www.nedra.com to find that GP turned a 14.007
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
> PS: Countering mis-information takes up way too much of my valuable time.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 9:51 PM
> Subject: Re: My thoughts on Gone Postal and the quest for data
>
>
> > Umm Hello Tom
> >
> > First GP was buildt for the Discovery channel... NOT Monster Garage. One
> > was
> > two yeard before the other.
> >
> > Monster Garage Episode #83 I think was done in December '05, I was the
> > Build
> > crew leader.
> > We buildt a 62 Chevy Bell Air.. with 2 two motors from Shawn Lawless's
> > dragster.
> > And We have better top speeds With Gp than with the Mg Car.
> >
> > I think Rod had a 98mph But I think MG had a better ET with a 14.53 at
> > 93.33
> > mph.
> >
> > So a VERY good argument would be the Gone Postal and the Monster Garage
> > Car
> > shoot out.
> >
> > Lots of Old lead VS spaning new Lion.
> >
> > I would root for Gp.. it has more of my blood in it. And I know how to
> > make
> > it Faster.
> >
> > Madman
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 6:13 PM
> > Subject: Re: My thoughts on Gone Postal and the quest for data
> >
> >
> >> While others are sharing their thoughts about Gone Postal, I'll share
> >> some
> >> of mine.
> >>
> >> The idea behind creating Gone Postal was to create a farce for the
> >> Monster
> >> Garage TV show. Converting an old mail truck into a drag racer was a
> >> totally
> >> absurd idea and impossible. I think I can safely say impossible
because
> > if
> >> the team who built it couldn't make Gone Postal into a drag racer, then
> >> nobody could. I was surprised, impressed and pleased that GP ran as
well
> >> as it did.
> >>
> >> So, what's to become of GP? My guess is that its racing days are
over.
> >> Maybe now is a good time to share ideas for GP, the retired race truck.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/433 - Release Date:
8/30/2006
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/434 - Release Date: 8/30/2006
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
oh, also, IGBT have significant voltage drop, FETs have resistance,
relays for very little of either.
Jack Murray wrote:
the gate drive consumes power when turned on, that is wasteful compared
to relays.
btw, what is the difference between a "contactor", "solenoid", and a
"relay", they all seem the same to me..
Dave Cover wrote:
I've seen how IGBTs are used in cotroller for high power switching,
but do they have any other use
in an EV? Would they work well as a relay to connect/disconnect things
from the DC pack? Or is
there always some current leakage that might cause a drain even when
the item is off?
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Whoa Roger....
a bit of a clarification in terms and features
Shift blanking was used in the DCP controllers and was called shift
blanking.
I think the DCP cut power for 50 Msec or as long as the line was active.
Crude but effective. We were going to use it on a Automatic tranny of some
sort.
Otmar's equipment does a LOT more than just blip off the throttle.
It waits for the amps to fall to 1/2 the programmed peak.
The throttle HAS TO BE AT %100
The Amps are cut
Wait
Relays thrown
Wait
Check the micro switches.. ask did the relays really get thrown?
Wait
If Yes, Then toggle on the AMPs
This takes about 500 Msec.
So I don't hold Otmar to the low standards that Damon and I needed to get
our job done.
Death wish..?? Yup that's why it has not been done yet.
Will Rod EVER be done with Gp...nope!
Not if we can help it!
It will just get faster...
Real racers wouldn't bother with this...
Amp heads would..because it's fun and gets some real attention.
Madman
Now if Rod would turn Gp into a Cashcow and get some of his Bills paid...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 10:17 AM
Subject: RE: My thoughts on Gone Postal and the quest for data
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > First the shift blanking is NOT available on the Zilla.
> > It was on the Raptors and T-Rexes..
>
> Gee Rich, make up your mind already! ;^>
>
> When I first asked about shift blanking, you stated that the Zilla *did*
> have it nicely implemented:
>
> "The Zilla has it's own shift blanking throw the relays, sequence...
> That's been well engineered by Otmar."
>
> But, in any event, I described how trivial it would be to implement
> shift blanking on the front 'Zilla if the controller didn't offer the
> feature.
>
> > What I want is full control of the Fronts with pedal control,
> > But have the back lock full on until brake is applied. That
> > way I Can play with clutch and throttle and amps and RPM shift
> > points while the Back just does it's thing.
>
> Sounds a bit like a death wish to me ;^>
>
> The problem you described initially was that lifting off the throttle to
> shift the front drive messes with the desired operation of the rear
> drive. A really basic shift blanking setup on the front drive would
> allow you to shift the front drive at any RPM you want without affecting
> the read drive operation since you would no longer have to lift your
> foot off the throttle to shift.
>
> Tom Shay wrote:
>
> > Converting an old mail truck into a drag racer was a
> > totally absurd idea and impossible. I think I can safely
> > say impossible because if the team who built it couldn't
> > make Gone Postal into a drag racer, then nobody could.
>
> I disagree; Rod isn't finished with GP yet.
>
> I've said it before, and I'll say it again: like John Wayland, I've no
> doubt that GP has low 12's in her, if not better. My buddy's best time
> is now a 12.65 in his 500HP 7000lb diesel 4x4 daily driver, on street
> tires; this truck is nearly 2x the weight of GP and at least as
> un-aerodynamic.
>
> When Rod gets GP sorted out, I think it will become quite clear that
> this is a *serious* racer.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What???
are you crazy???
The Gate drive for a IGBT is maybe a couple of watts even driven to 50Khz.
Relays suck up many times that power to hold in the contacts.
Solenoid can be used to open and close many things, not just contacts.
Contactor and relays are basicly the same thing, Size seams to favor
Contactors, relays seam to be small toys...
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: IGBT question
> the gate drive consumes power when turned on, that is wasteful compared
> to relays.
>
> btw, what is the difference between a "contactor", "solenoid", and a
> "relay", they all seem the same to me..
>
> Dave Cover wrote:
> > I've seen how IGBTs are used in cotroller for high power switching, but
do they have any other use
> > in an EV? Would they work well as a relay to connect/disconnect things
from the DC pack? Or is
> > there always some current leakage that might cause a drain even when the
item is off?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Dave Cover
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The bigger IBGT gates have leakages of maybe 1uA at the worst, at no
more than 15V. The circuit may take up to 30mA if it's inside a module.
Even if it were 50mW of loss, this compares to 50V at 500mA for a
contactor like mine, or 25W! The IGBT has at most five hundred times
less power consumption.
If the IGBT is cool, there is little leakage through the emitter and
collector. If it's off for at least a minute or so, it'll be cool,
which means there won't be much leakage. This still could be 1mA
though, but unlikely. The total effect would be negligible unless a
shock hazard is considered, but a properly placed resistor and capacitor
could help this.
- Arthur
On Thu, 2006-08-31 at 09:49 -0700, Jack Murray wrote:
> the gate drive consumes power when turned on, that is wasteful compared
> to relays.
>
> btw, what is the difference between a "contactor", "solenoid", and a
> "relay", they all seem the same to me..
>
> Dave Cover wrote:
> > I've seen how IGBTs are used in cotroller for high power switching, but do
> > they have any other use
> > in an EV? Would they work well as a relay to connect/disconnect things from
> > the DC pack? Or is
> > there always some current leakage that might cause a drain even when the
> > item is off?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, we can go on about this, but your example puts 80 lb ft at 500 amps,
close to my conservative ball park of 70 lf ft at 500 amps. And, plot your
numbers on Excel. Looks pretty close to linear to me. torq = 0.195 * amps -
16.7. Thanks for the discussion.
jeff
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Jeff Major wrote:
> I agree my ball park calculation is probably conseravtive for
> several reasons, but not the one you mention. Series motor torque
> is only proprotional to square of armature current below knee of
> saturation curve. High loads, approaching stall, will certianly
> take mmf higher than knee and no longer provide proprotional
> increase in flux, so the squared rule will not apply.
The specs for the motor being discussed (Surplus Center item# 10-2120,
compound wound, 24v, 72a, 149 lbs.) are clearly well under its actual
ratings. 72 amps is nowhere near its saturation current. Therefore, the
torque = current squared approximation is better than torque = current.
Yes, at high currents, saturation does reduce the torque-per-amp
relationship. However, motors have air gaps, so saturation occurs
gradually.
Here is the torque-vs-amps relationship for a similar motor, a GE
5BT1346B50, which weighs 170 lbs:
torque current
ft.lbs amps
5 110
10 135
20 185
40 295
60 400
80 500
100 590
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
countries) for 2¢/min or less.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
put 2 of them in series, the total leakage would be unmeasurable, no?
they are fairly common and cheap on ebay, contactors, on the other hand, are
hard to find on ebay :op
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: IGBT question
The bigger IBGT gates have leakages of maybe 1uA at the worst, at no
more than 15V. The circuit may take up to 30mA if it's inside a module.
Even if it were 50mW of loss, this compares to 50V at 500mA for a
contactor like mine, or 25W! The IGBT has at most five hundred times
less power consumption.
If the IGBT is cool, there is little leakage through the emitter and
collector. If it's off for at least a minute or so, it'll be cool,
which means there won't be much leakage. This still could be 1mA
though, but unlikely. The total effect would be negligible unless a
shock hazard is considered, but a properly placed resistor and capacitor
could help this.
- Arthur
On Thu, 2006-08-31 at 09:49 -0700, Jack Murray wrote:
the gate drive consumes power when turned on, that is wasteful compared
to relays.
btw, what is the difference between a "contactor", "solenoid", and a
"relay", they all seem the same to me..
Dave Cover wrote:
> I've seen how IGBTs are used in cotroller for high power switching, but
> do they have any other use
> in an EV? Would they work well as a relay to connect/disconnect things
> from the DC pack? Or is
> there always some current leakage that might cause a drain even when
> the item is off?
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
